Strange behaviour/gravid? ball python

Hello, everyone! I'm hoping someone can offer some insight and advice on my issue.
I have a 13 year old female ball python. I've owned her her whole life. I am not a breeder and never planned to be so I'm out of my element. She's my only snake. But my girl layed a parthenogenetic clutch last year.. 5 healthy babies. It was wild because I didn't know they could do that lol. The birth was hard on her though and I hadn't got her back to full weight before she went off food about 4 months ago. In the last week or so she's been acting so strange.. which makes me think she's gone and impregnated herself again. Or there is something wrong.. the last time she allowed me to hold her, it didn't feel like eggs in her but I wasn't really looking and not experienced in this so I don't know.
She's been pacing like crazy, was soaking in her bath, then crawling up her branch to bask, aggressive and skittish lately (so I'm leaving her alone), back and forth from hot to cold side, barely sleeping, peeing lots. She has been pushing her bedding away under her hides which looks like nesting. She is normally very docile and friendly and generally isn't too active unless hungry. So she is not herself at all. So I'm very concerned. Her temps are fine and thermostat hasn't malfunctioned.

What do you guys think??
If she is gravid, is there concern that she was on the thinner side? What should I do for her?
How do I keep her from doing this again?

Thank you for your time!

Congratulations on the clutch. Out of curiosity can you describe the type of environment she is living in? The temperatures and humidity and heating setup you have for her. Typically, ball pythons don’t bask. Pretty much they are underground dwellers and primarily nocturnal.

What date last year did she lay eggs? One risk when snakes insist on producing eggs without breeding is also egg-binding- an egg can get left behind. I even had a rat snake (years ago) that had an ectopic pregnancy- an egg wouldn't come out because it wasn't at all in the right place- but happily, surgery by a very experienced vet got her thru that (with a necessary spay).

BTW, you have my sympathy- I have dealt with parthenogenesis in snakes before, & I still have 2 aging rat snakes that produced large double-clutches of eggs every year...:rolleyes:
I wish I could say for sure what's going on with your snake, but I can't. I hope for the best though.

If you need to find a vet to check her out, this site can help: https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I have dealt with parthenogenesis in snakes before, & I still have 2 aging rat snakes that produced large double-clutches of eggs every year...:rolleyes:

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Sorry. I don't mean to side-track the thread, but how common is parthenogenesis? I've always gotten males to avoid it, but I thought it was a rare thing.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

Sorry. I don't mean to side-track the thread, but how common is parthenogenesis? I've always gotten males to avoid it, but I thought it was a rare thing.

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It's fairly rare, but when you've had as many snakes as I have, over so many years, my number was bound to come up, I guess? But it's also like buying a lottery ticket- you can "win" on a first try too, but just don't bet too much on it. Even without parthenogenesis- without viable eggs- realize that some female snakes just produce eggs anyway- & I don't know how to predict that either. Years back I had a beautiful, healthy little CA desert king that died young from egg-binding- she never bred, & I had no idea what was going on until too late.

Thanks for the reply!
She's in a hand made terrarium. Wood with a plexy glass window, 4'×2' and I think 2' high. I use a radiant heat panel on the inside roof of terrarium. Then she has a stone tile on her hot side with belly heat mat on the outside of tank under it. Both radiant heat and belly have thermostats of course. Her cool side is 26.6c or 80f. The probe is on the bedding under the hide where she lays. The hot side is 29.5c or 85f. I haven't had a humidity probe in for a while because it was always the same for years. But it sits around 50. And I heavy mist around sheds so it's around 70-80. She's on coconut husk bedding that I allow to dry out before heavy mistings. But generally her big water bowl under the radiant heat panel, and no open top keeps me from having to mist too much. She had a light in her tank but hated it so I just use natural light.
She's generally a very happy, healthy, plump girl and nothing in her home has changed.
Maybe she's not "basking" but she has a log on an angle going up and she generally climbs it at night. I just noticed her doing it more.
She's been less active yesterday and today. Staying under her cold hide. But I haven't bothered her.

I hopefully answered all your questions! I'd put a picture but I'm not sure how on here

Thank you for the reply!
This is extremely embarrassing but I don't know when they were layed last year.. around the time I had hip surgery I'd assume. I was very unwell and left her alone because she's quite large I can't handle her with one hand and I had crutches and a cane for a while 😥
They HATCHED August 28th last year. Inside her normal enclosure on the hot side.
Everyone says congratulations but it was so stressful.. haha I gave them to a local breeder because I was not set up for them. So thank you for your sympathies. And she was unwell for a bit after although she got her appetite back the day they hatched! Which was good.
I had a look at the vet finder. Thank you! The closest is a bit over 2 hrs away..
I want to check her out more but when I lifted her hide yesterday she was pissssed. I have zero experience with aggressive snakes haha so I left her alone. She's been a golden retriever of snakes up until this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

It's fairly rare, but when you've had as many snakes as I have, over so many years, my number was bound to come up, I guess? But it's also like buying a lottery ticket- you can "win" on a first try too, but just don't bet too much on it. Even without parthenogenesis- without viable eggs- realize that some female snakes just produce eggs anyway- & I don't know how to predict that either. Years back I had a beautiful, healthy little CA desert king that died young from egg-binding- she never bred, & I had no idea what was going on until too late.

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I hear it's rare. When I asked around last year about this, no one could tell me much. I asked if she's likely to do it again and no one even answered me. I really hope this isn't a yearly thing now 😓 I'm scared for her especially since her weight was quite low for her. I'm scared of them getting stuck but without a breeding date I don't know if she's gravid and if she is how far along. I don't know at what point this is a danger

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Originally Posted by Shmalex

Thanks for the reply!
She's in a hand made terrarium. Wood with a plexy glass window, 4'×2' and I think 2' high. I use a radiant heat panel on the inside roof of terrarium. Then she has a stone tile on her hot side with belly heat mat on the outside of tank under it. Both radiant heat and belly have thermostats of course. Her cool side is 26.6c or 80f. The probe is on the bedding under the hide where she lays. The hot side is 29.5c or 85f. I haven't had a humidity probe in for a while because it was always the same for years. But it sits around 50. And I heavy mist around sheds so it's around 70-80. She's on coconut husk bedding that I allow to dry out before heavy mistings. But generally her big water bowl under the radiant heat panel, and no open top keeps me from having to mist too much. She had a light in her tank but hated it so I just use natural light.
She's generally a very happy, healthy, plump girl and nothing in her home has changed.
Maybe she's not "basking" but she has a log on an angle going up and she generally climbs it at night. I just noticed her doing it more.
She's been less active yesterday and today. Staying under her cold hide. But I haven't bothered her.

I hopefully answered all your questions! I'd put a picture but I'm not sure how on here

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First off, this is how to post pics: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-Post-Pictures

I agree, most snakes hate added lights- and natural room light is just fine. :gj:

FYI- as I'm doing right now with my 2 older FL rat snakes that are about to lay their yearly clutches, it's best to facilitate the process by providing your snake a NEST BOX- large enough for her to curl up in with some extra room- with a deep layer of damp sphagnum moss inside, and privacy! It should be on the cool side of the enclosure- replacing the cool hide. Also provide a big enough water bowl for your snake to soak in if she wants.

I can't speak for ball pythons, but my gals NEED to soak after they lay eggs, to rehydrate BEFORE they are ready to eat again. Digestion can go poorly if they're not adequately hydrated- keep that in mind. (If you're wondering what to use for a nest box, you might try a plastic laundry tub or an unused litter box, or a sterilite storage box of the right size.)

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Originally Posted by Shmalex

Thank you for the reply!
This is extremely embarrassing but I don't know when they were layed last year.. around the time I had hip surgery I'd assume. I was very unwell and left her alone because she's quite large I can't handle her with one hand and I had crutches and a cane for a while 😥
They HATCHED August 28th last year. Inside her normal enclosure on the hot side.
Everyone says congratulations but it was so stressful.. haha I gave them to a local breeder because I was not set up for them. So thank you for your sympathies. And she was unwell for a bit after although she got her appetite back the day they hatched! Which was good.
I had a look at the vet finder. Thank you! The closest is a bit over 2 hrs away..
I want to check her out more but when I lifted her hide yesterday she was pissssed. I have zero experience with aggressive snakes haha so I left her alone. She's been a golden retriever of snakes up until this.

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I can see where last year was very awkward for you. I'd guess the eggs were laid in late June of last year- which reinforces what I was getting at- that right now she's stressed because she has no nest box & needs to lay- and THAT can contribute to egg-binding, so get her fixed up to lay eggs A.S.A.P. Seriously.

(re her loss of appetite last year, see my previous post- it's all about hydration hydration hydration!) Your snake is not "aggressive"- she's defensive, and needs a proper nest box. ;)

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Originally Posted by Shmalex

I hear it's rare. When I asked around last year about this, no one could tell me much. I asked if she's likely to do it again and no one even answered me. I really hope this isn't a yearly thing now 😓 I'm scared for her especially since her weight was quite low for her. I'm scared of them getting stuck but without a breeding date I don't know if she's gravid and if she is how far along. I don't know at what point this is a danger

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It could easily be a yearly thing now, unless you get her spayed, which not many vets do, & very few owners request.

Parthenogenesis has no "breeding date" but snakes tend to produce at roughly the same time every year, viable eggs or not.

Fix her up with a nest box as I described- move out unessential things to make room- it's important that she feels safe, private, & has a proper nest box with minimal disruption. :snake:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I can see where last year was very awkward for you. I'd guess the eggs were laid in late June of last year- which reinforces what I was getting at- that right now she's stressed because she has no nest box & needs to lay- and THAT can contribute to egg-binding, so get her fixed up to lay eggs A.S.A.P. Seriously.

(re her loss of appetite last year, see my previous post- it's all about hydration hydration hydration!) Your snake is not "aggressive"- she's defensive, and needs a proper nest box. ;)

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Thank you for your reply!
So you're thinking she is gravid then?
Ok I'll get on that today. It's hard to find sphagnum moss in my city and I have just a bit left. Anything else that will do until I can order more?
And yes defensive is the right word. I'm nervous to handle her like that but I guess I'll have to get over it. Her water bowl already is quite large. I don't think I'd have room for a lay box, water bowl and regular hot hide even though her tank is 4 feet long. I have a clear tub with a lid I can make into a lay box. I assume I should cover it.
I had no idea a lay box was so important.. she didn't need one last year at all so I didn't even think about it.
Thank you

I'm looking up nest boxes for bp and it seems barely anyone bothers with it and they are fine without (I understand that could be incorrect)
To reduce bothering her as she's been curled under her cool hide for 2 days now, could I just add another new layer of moist coconut husk all around her?? Mixing the spagnum moss I have left? Then I barely have to disturb her? And her humidity gets bumped up

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Originally Posted by Shmalex

Thank you for your reply!
So you're thinking she is gravid then?
Ok I'll get on that today. It's hard to find sphagnum moss in my city and I have just a bit left. Anything else that will do until I can order more?
And yes defensive is the right word. I'm nervous to handle her like that but I guess I'll have to get over it. Her water bowl already is quite large. I don't think I'd have room for a lay box, water bowl and regular hot hide even though her tank is 4 feet long. I have a clear tub with a lid I can make into a lay box. I assume I should cover it.
I had no idea a lay box was so important.. she didn't need one last year at all so I didn't even think about it.
Thank you

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I'm not seeing her, (or your set-up), so I'm just going by what you're describing- and I would assume she is. You might try using a big ol' dampened towel around her- she'd probably love that, & it doesn't sound like you should be handling her at this time. And you could at least cover that end of the enclosure so it's more cave-like & private- see? That's likely why she's grumpy- she needs privacy, & some snakes are thought to wait too long to lay eggs if conditions are unsuitable, then maybe get "stuck" or some will lay them in a water bowl (since the sides make it feel more secure, & that's all they can find). Your job is to be a facilitator. ;) I do have experience breeding some kinds of snakes, but not BPs. (A nest "box" helps keep the dampness where you want it, so the eggs don't dry out & so the female is comfortable, & feels safe.)

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Originally Posted by Shmalex

I'm looking up nest boxes for bp and it seems barely anyone bothers with it and they are fine without (I understand that could be incorrect)
To reduce bothering her as she's been curled under her cool hide for 2 days now, could I just add another new layer of moist coconut husk all around her?? Mixing the spagnum moss I have left? Then I barely have to disturb her? And her humidity gets bumped up

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That may be the case with BPs, as far as a nest box- all I can say is sure, try it.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I'm not seeing her, (or your set-up), so I'm just going by what you're describing- and I would assume she is. You might try using a big ol' dampened towel around her- she'd probably love that, & it doesn't sound like you should be handling her at this time. And you could at least cover that end of the enclosure so it's more cave-like & private- see? That's likely why she's grumpy- she needs privacy, & some snakes are thought to wait too long to lay eggs if conditions are unsuitable, then maybe get "stuck" or some will lay them in a water bowl (since the sides make it feel more secure, & that's all they can find). Your job is to be a facilitator. ;) I do have experience breeding some kinds of snakes, but not BPs. (A nest "box" helps keep the dampness where you want it, so the eggs don't dry out & so the female is comfortable, & feels safe.)

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I saw the link on photo sharing. Seems very complicated for a tech illiterate like me haha but I'll have a go in a bit.
I already have a blanket covering that side of the tank and glass so it's dark and quiet. She's also in my spare room with no foot traffic.
I'm leaving her alone but I can see that her hide has been raise off the ground a bit so there is a space and I can sometimes see her body. Normally she lays in a big flat coil and the hide isn't raised so she's "sitting up" in a tall coil if that makes sense.
I'll put lots of moist bedding all around her to help her out. It is a tad lower than normal because I've been cleaning out all her extra pees lately.
Strange she'd find the environment unsuitable when it is the exact same as last year and her birth went fine.

Thank you for your help.
Any ball python specialist out there than want to chime in?

I followed the instructions for picture upload but every time it says my file is too big. It's just one normal picture. I've tried cropping it down but no luck

((Merged your photo thread with this one, so it is all in one place. ))

This seems to be the only way I can post pictures [emoji28] don't know if this will work. This is for my thread on my "strange behaviour/possible gravid" BP, her set up and her parthenogenetic clutch last year. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f7d23466c5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b82bb3a20e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...a20d785b38.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I'm not seeing her, (or your set-up), so I'm just going by what you're describing- and I would assume she is.

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I had to make a whole new thread... Don't know why. But I posted a pic with her clutch, her in the bath after laying last year and my enclosure


(( Admin note: Photo thread merged with this one, see above post. ))

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Originally Posted by Shmalex

I followed the instructions for picture upload but every time it says my file is too big. It's just one normal picture. I've tried cropping it down but no luck

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Try this:

• go to https://imgur.com/a/cgNzuwV
• create an new post. No sign up needed.
• https://i.imgur.com/gY2HIHu_d.webp?m...fidelity=grand
• in a new window open up the forum and start your thread
• drag and drop the image from the imgur post into your thread

I know it can be frustrating at first, but adding pictures really enriches your forum experience. Good luck.

Wow! Bogertophis gave quite a bit of valuable tips. Simply, I would consider raising both the cool side temperature and the warm side temperature to start. 85F is a bit low for the warm side temp in ball python comfort zones. You sound like most other areas of the husbandry is pretty good so congrats. The temps and humidity are factors that will affect the reptiles establishment and behavior for sure. So consider that firstly. Once a ball python lays eggs and those eggs are removed for artificial incubation, the scent of the eggs needs to be removed . Otherwise, the animal will remain “ off feeding”. The python should be wiped down and rinsed off with a safe soap like a Dawn dishwashing soap. They can be allowed to soak also and rinsed off with clear, clean water. The environment, tub and contents should be washed and rinsed thoroughly as well. Once dried off and the scent of the eggs is removed the quicker the animal will get back on food. Usually, but not always.

Yep, that’s a pretty big girl right there. Looks healthy also. Congratulations.

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Wow! Bogertophis gave quite a bit of valuable tips. Simply, I would consider raising both the cool side temperature and the warm side temperature to start. 85F is a bit low for the warm side temp in ball python comfort zones. You sound like most other areas of the husbandry is pretty good so congrats. The temps and humidity are factors that will affect the reptiles establishment and behavior for sure. So consider that firstly. Once a ball python lays eggs and those eggs are removed for artificial incubation, the scent of the eggs needs to be removed . Otherwise, the animal will remain “ off feeding”. The python should be wiped down and rinsed off with a safe soap like a Dawn dishwashing soap. They can be allowed to soak also and rinsed off with clear, clean water. The environment, tub and contents should be washed and rinsed thoroughly as well. Once dried off and the scent of the eggs is removed the quicker the animal will get back on food. Usually, but not always.

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Thank you!
I just checked and her warm side is between 31-32c. I turned up her cold side to 28c.
I had said the last two days she was staying under her cold side. Well I just went in to put in the new bedding and she's very active. It's 1pm where I am. She is specifically trying to go up.. should I bump up higher than 28for cold side??
She seems thin.. I wouldn't say there looks like there are eggs in her. Ugh what the heck is going on??
I want to take her out and see but don't want to mess with her

Omg.omg.omg there is an egg! I can see it under her hide!

She layed 8! I'll post pictures when I can. I'm just tending to momma and washing her at the moment. The good news she seems totally empty. No eggs bound. She's so thin 😓

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Originally Posted by Shmalex

She layed 8! I'll post pictures when I can. I'm just tending to momma and washing her at the moment. The good news she seems totally empty. No eggs bound. She's so thin 😓

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Wow, that was FAST! Congratulations to you and your snake! :D

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Originally Posted by Shmalex

She layed 8! I'll post pictures when I can. I'm just tending to momma and washing her at the moment. The good news she seems totally empty. No eggs bound. She's so thin 😓

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Damn! Girl's making up for lost time. Maybe next year she'll make it an even dozen.

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Originally Posted by Shmalex

Thank you!
I just checked and her warm side is between 31-32c. I turned up her cold side to 28c.
I had said the last two days she was staying under her cold side. Well I just went in to put in the new bedding and she's very active. It's 1pm where I am. She is specifically trying to go up.. should I bump up higher than 28for cold side??
She seems thin.. I wouldn't say there looks like there are eggs in her. Ugh what the heck is going on??
I want to take her out and see but don't want to mess with her

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28C is a good cool side area. Nice job and congratulations. Lol.

Gosh I hope not.. haha all I care about is the health of my girl. She's so thin now and lots of loose skin. Seems like she'll make this a yearly occurrence. I'm wildly relieved that no eggs are stuck though

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

28C is a good cool side area. Nice job and congratulations. Lol.

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Thanks for the advice! She's all bathed and I did a total clean of her tank. She's restless but otherwise back to herself ☺️ I'll offer food tonight or tomorrow

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Wow, that was FAST! Congratulations to you and your snake! :D

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I'm just glad she's ok. Thank you for your time to respond and give advice. It made it a bit less scary when I didn't know what was going on. I guess best case scenario happened. Now I'll focus on getting her all plumped up again.
Still having trouble with pictures but when I can, I'll post

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Originally Posted by Shmalex

Thanks for the advice! She's all bathed and I did a total clean of her tank. She's restless but otherwise back to herself ☺️ I'll offer food tonight or tomorrow

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I know how badly you want to see her eating again, but it's likely that she needs a few days at least to rest & rehydrate, especially since she was thin to start with (according to your description). Wait until you see some interest in food. Otherwise you'll likely be wasting your effort & the prey. A dehydrated snake may have trouble digesting & may barf it up, making things worse, since then you have to wait longer (a few weeks) before feeding, to give them time to replenish their digestive enzymes. Patience...

Quick FYI, I merged the separate thread with the photos in it with this thread so that everything is in one place for easier viewing. :)

Great job! Truly you have got mostly all points covered. Now that the scent of the eggs is gone make sure she has enough clean drinking water and soaking area. I think it’s not impossible for her to take a meal after about a week or so. Consider starting her out a smaller sized meal first. Keep us in the loop.

Did the eggs go into a incubator?

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Did the eggs go into a incubator?

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Yes I gave the eggs to a local breeder and she put them in her incubator. She said just 3 have veins. She took the children last year haha And they did great! I'm just not set up for them and honestly don't need more snakes 😅 as cute as the little clones are! And they were all as calm and sweet as their mom of course.

My girl normally takes FT large rats and I just have some pretty big mediums. So I'll wait until a shipment of small comes in to start her slow. Her insides have been through a lot

Okay pictures are working with Imgur!
This is a pic of Kahlil after her bath yesterday. I gave her a little steam while I cleaned. She looks tiny and thin to me but probably fine condition considering. She's usually about as thick as a coke can haha

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...ur.com/bPk33Ldhttps://i.imgur.com/bPk33Ld.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ilFLspo.jpg

The eggs!
https://i.imgur.com/sUwKJ2U.jpg


Her 4 Partho babies from last year! Pictures taken in november I think. The first one is so light and pretty. Apparently she kept getting prettier.
https://i.imgur.com/hooh1bp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/d8wNS8h.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/JX4pw01.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/caPMUZB.jpg

You did a amazing job, congratulations. Actually jobs! Both clutches and the big girl looking fabulous. :gj: There is really something special about those babies also!

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

You did a amazing job, congratulations. Actually jobs! Both clutches and the big girl looking fabulous. :gj: There is really something special about those babies also!

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Thank you ☺️ I guess I'm going to get experience in this whether I like it or not lol
The babies are so lovely. It was hard to give them away.. but I knew they'd go to good homes and that's what is important. When I got Lil the breeder said she was "het for orange ghost" I really don't know anything about genetics other than that's recessive. Could she have made an orange ghost .. with herself? Haha or there is just some variety in normals

I agree, & btw, I don't think your big mama snake looks terribly thin either- they all look great- :gj:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I agree, & btw, I don't think your big mama snake looks terribly thin either- they all look great- :gj:

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Ok I'm glad you don't think she's too thin. That makes me feel better. Maybe she was slightly obese before... haha I could always still feel her spine down the top of her even at her heaftiest though. I'll start her with a small or medium rat soon

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Originally Posted by Shmalex

Ok I'm glad you don't think she's too thin. That makes me feel better. Maybe she was slightly obese before... haha I could always still feel her spine down the top of her even at her heaftiest though. I'll start her with a small or medium rat soon

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This chart may help you:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...f42b352b68.jpg

Ya she was probably a little bit overweight before 😅 and she definitely looks closest to "good" now. Helpful chart!