Ball python neglect help

Hi I'm new here, not new to snakes or reptiles but I'm after some advice, iv had rescues before but not as bad as the boy that I picked up yesterday, emaciated isn't even the right word, apparently he hasn't eaten for over a year but smashed a rat pup when I got him home ( had to give him food, i dont think he would survive another 2 weeks without food)

He has been to the vets but they cant draw bloods because his body is just to fragile right now but they took swabs from where they could,

What advice I'm looking for is feeds every 3 to 4 days gonna be to close together? He is only right now taking very small 50gram rat pups and he is a 2018 but there is no way his body could support or digest anything larger,

Also advice with handling him for cleaning he cant support any of his body at all but I'm also worried that I might break some of his bones? Is this even possible on a snake?

Iv had underweight snakes before but never this bad.




And the reason I haven't actually put pictures of him is because some people might find it to distressing.

I'd wait 4-5, it's good news that he took the rat pup on his own. Maybe next time offer 2 see if he takes the 2nd one

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I'm so glad you managed to get him to a vet so quickly. that's always the first step in a serious situation like this. (as well as a professional opinion in case needed regarding abuse cases, but that's another issue entirely)

If this was my rescue, I'd probably do the same thing. The downside with animals who are that emaciated is that sometimes they just can't digest properly. So I do agree that handling smaller meals and seeing if he can handle that every 4 days would not be a bad start. Rat pups are still small enough that they aren't too much fur and solid bone to digest, but at least a good start. If he does regurge his meal from yesterday or the next, you'll need to re-evaluate. He may pass some pretty nasty stools as well, so hydration is important.
One of my rescues was a snake with a large gash on her neck, so she was eating very small meals every 2-3 days or so for a couple months while it healed. But for this baby, I would still try and space him out as he's not a healthy snake with a wound. His body needs to relearn how to get that nutrition.

Once he gets a bit more of his strength back and a little bit of weight, you can slowly start increasing the meal size and going back to a more normal feeding size/schedule for a snake of that age.
I really hope that he continue eating and that recovery goes well. I wouldn't worry too much about breaking bones or anything it you're gentle with handling. Just try to support him fully in a coil when lifting so he's not dangling weight anywhere.
The potential for muscle damage or even skin damage is I think a bit more common with emaciated snakes than actual bone damage. Sometimes when very emaciated, the skin can become paper thin and tear easily, So if he shows signs of going in shed, make sure he;s got all that good hydration and humid places to hide.

The thing that worries me is there is no fat between his stomach and his skin and am worried to much of a stretch may cause harm if that makes sense, i know a snakes skin can stretch but whats the chances of something like that?

Thank you very much
we was very worried about him and took him right there after collection and our vet was more than happy to help, he hasnt brought his meal up from yesterday and seems to enjoy not sitting under his hide but sitting at the side with his head up against it, he is drinking by himself so im not so worried about hydration right now as he seems to be dealing with that himself and i have some vitamin drops for in his water also.

we are keeping a very close eye on him for signs of shed so we can up his humidity to help him as he looks like he will have a hard time with it, we have also treated him for mites we don't see any sign of them but better to be safe on that.

I'm glad you're trying to help this poor snake recover & also glad you're asking the right questions, & have taken him to the vet also. :gj:

I can understand wanting to feed him so often, but when a snake is starved for so long, you should slow down on meals, only gradually give them so close together- & understand that while the snake may be very thin, his hydration is absolutely just as essential as food is, probably more so. A starved snake's body did not have the nutrients supplied that it needed to make digestive enzymes, so he may have a lot of trouble digesting, even easily-digested young rodents (rat pups). I'd be very careful NOT to feed so soon again- his behavior may give some clues also, but right now I think feeding every 4-5 days should not be done (unless you're offering rat pinks?)- his digestion will be s-l-o-w and you should allow for that. Don't expect him to digest as a healthier snake would. Be very patient.

I have taken in chronically-underfed snakes in the past- & I agree with Armiyana's post above, that you may find his skin will always tear easily- this snake may require "TLC" for life.


And btw, :welcome: Thank you for sharing this story- rest assured we're all on your side, hoping you can pull him thru to a much better life. Do keep us posted.

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Originally Posted by Santiago6621

... Maybe next time offer 2 see if he takes the 2nd one...

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I know you meant well, but PLEASE don't do this- it's very likely his digestion will take much longer than normal, and a regurgitation is the LAST thing this snake needs- it could literally kill him.

Starved snakes will NOT have enough digestive enzymes available to digest easily, as a normal healthy snake does. He needs time to recover very slowly. Easy does it... ;)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I know you meant well, but PLEASE don't do this- it's very likely his digestion will take much longer than normal, and a regurgitation is the LAST thing this snake needs- it could literally kill him.

Starved snakes will NOT have enough digestive enzymes available to digest easily, as a normal healthy snake does. He needs time to recover very slowly. Easy does it... ;)

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Not trying to mislead anyone, I've never had a bp that was so bad he couldn't eat 2 small rat pups at 3 yrs old. Maybe should have thought more about it before posting

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Originally Posted by Nakoa

What advice I'm looking for is feeds every 3 to 4 days gonna be to close together? He is only right now taking very small 50gram rat pups and he is a 2018 but there is no way his body could support or digest anything larger,

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A 50 gram rat is a small rat, not a pup. If the feeder is truly 50 grams you should feed every 7 days.

I would also suggest getting some NutriBac which is a probiotic for reptiles, and dust a bit of the powder on each of his feeders. The probiotic will help him get his good gut flora back.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

A 50 gram rat is a small rat, not a pup. If the feeder is truly 50 grams you should feed every 7 days.

I would also suggest getting some NutriBac which is a probiotic for reptiles, and dust a bit of the powder on each of his feeders. The probiotic will help him get his good gut flora back.

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Whoops! I thought in the initial post that the rat pups were truly rat pups! Not 50 gm small rats. Thank bcr !



:)

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Originally Posted by bcr229

A 50 gram rat is a small rat, not a pup. If the feeder is truly 50 grams you should feed every 7 days.

I would also suggest getting some NutriBac which is a probiotic for reptiles, and dust a bit of the powder on each of his feeders. The probiotic will help him get his good gut flora back.

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I thought that when i weighted it but i bought them as rat pups and they dont have fur or very little so just put rat pup as that was what they was sold as..

il look at getting some NutriBac the others i took from the guys collection would probably benefit from it also.. they are small for age as one 2015 female is 1400grams she is slightly under weight but nothing that a few good meals wont fix i think the others if they stayed in his care would have gone the same way.
He does have a multi vitamin in his water they all do and he has a calcium dust on is food the vets did recommend that, didn't say anything about a probiotic but il look into getting that thank you

and for hydration he does drink a lot iv seen him drink often as i think he didn't have regular access to water but the vets will be doing blood tests once he has a bit more strength

But we was very surprised for his small frame and his doesn't eat rodents only sometimes eats chicks as soon as a rat went in range he struck it coiled and then ate it and was looking for more, but we wont be giving him anything more than that as don't want to over whelm his system hence why i ordered rat pups but got what i did i also believe his skin wouldn't hold up to well to being over stretched by to much.

as for the food because the rat "pups" are 50 grams i have some ASF weaner's that are smaller around 34 grams but they are full fur would it be best to use them or just stick with the rats as they have little to no fur

ok im gonna correct it i just checked his feed card it was a 15 gram rat pup :confuzd: :ohmygod:it was feed day for a few babies i have i got confused lol

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Originally Posted by Nakoa

ok im gonna correct it i just checked his feed card it was a 15 gram rat pup :confuzd: :ohmygod:it was feed day for a few babies i have i got confused lol

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Thats fine. The main thing is you are now heading in the right direction. Reptiles don’t get sick quickly they have a tendency to mask their illnesses. They certainly don’t heal and recover quickly.


:D:D

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Originally Posted by Nakoa

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He does have a multi vitamin in his water they all do...

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Just a suggestion- don't do that. ;) First, because snakes don't drink that much water, so most of that is wasted (being so diluted) in a bowl of water. Also, it's going to go bad (encourage bacteria in the water) if you don't change water daily.

Better way: Install the vitamin (whether it's powder or droplets) into the dead rodents mouth right before you offer it. I'm assuming you're feeding dead (f/t or fresh) rodents, but if not, don't bother doing this until it is. Live rodents have plenty of vitamins, & putting supplements on their fur- well, mostly that just falls off, but it also makes the rodent smell "different" & wouldn't you know it, some snakes would refuse to eat on that basis- not that BPs are finicky or anything. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Just a suggestion- don't do that. ;) First, because snakes don't drink that much water, so most of that is wasted (being so diluted) in a bowl of water. Also, it's going to go bad (encourage bacteria in the water) if you don't change water daily.

Better way: Install the vitamin (whether it's powder or droplets) into the dead rodents mouth right before you offer it. I'm assuming you're feeding dead (f/t or fresh) rodents, but if not, don't bother doing this until it is. Live rodents have plenty of vitamins, & putting supplements on their fur- well, mostly that just falls off, but it also makes the rodent smell "different" & wouldn't you know it, some snakes would refuse to eat on that basis- not that BPs are finicky or anything. :rolleyes:

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There water does get changed daily because even though they didn't show signs of mites or I didn't see mites they definitely have them so water changes is daily right now, but if it's better for the vitamin to do it that way then I will,

The calcium powder I tend to just rub a bit into the butt end of the rodent.
They are f/T I was breeding my own rodents but the dust from them wasn't doing my own health any favours so had to give that up.
He has a great food response I went to change his water today he thought it was food and bit me lol I think everything we was told about how he wouldn't eat rodents etc was just rubbish and it's just blatant neglect but it's all evidence against him for the case against him if they intend to which is very likely.
Thank you though for all the advice iv had neglected animals in my care before but never this bad I cried when I saw him.

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Originally Posted by Nakoa

There water does get changed daily because even though they didn't show signs of mites or I didn't see mites they definitely have them so water changes is daily right now, but if it's better for the vitamin to do it that way then I will,

The calcium powder I tend to just rub a bit into the butt end of the rodent.
They are f/T I was breeding my own rodents but the dust from them wasn't doing my own health any favours so had to give that up.
He has a great food response I went to change his water today he thought it was food and bit me lol I think everything we was told about how he wouldn't eat rodents etc was just rubbish and it's just blatant neglect but it's all evidence against him for the case against him if they intend to which is very likely.
Thank you though for all the advice iv had neglected animals in my care before but never this bad I cried when I saw him.

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It's just that you'll get more of the vitamins INTO the snake this way (oral cavity of the rodent). You might have to pry open the dead rodents mouth a little so be careful, their teeth can be sharp.

If you know a snake definitely has mites, you need to address that quickly- they can multiply exponentially (NOT kidding!), & overwhelm (kill) a snake, just by the "little bit of blood" each one sucks out. Mites are also thought to spread disease among snakes.

It's so awful, the way some ppl neglect & mistreat animals. :tears:

I would recommend against supplementing whole rodent prey.

The reason calcium supplements are provided (when they are indicated) is because herps require a balanced calcium and phosphorus intake to avoid elevated blood plasma levels of either; an imbalance throws the metabolic checks and balances into a tailspin. The ideal Ca/P ratio of reptile foods is understood to be 1.5/1. Rats are already 1.77/1; increasing the calcium is counterproductive (a person could use a CaPO4 based supplement, but in the absence of diagnosed need this would simply put more metabolic pressure on the animal to excrete the extra minerals; excess blood Ca and P are actively passed back into the digestive tract and excreted with stool). Calcium demand in a convalescing animal might be presumed to be minimal, anyway, since replacement of muscle mass and fat stores will probably be taking place much more than bone mass increase, giving yet another reason not to supplement Ca.

Sometimes the fact that younger rodents contain less Ca per unit of mass than do adult rodents is taken as evidence that those animals are calcium deficient as prey items. But since it is the ratio of Ca to P that is the relevant metric (and since there is no data on the P content of neonate rodents that I've been able to uncover, and in absence of a reason to think that the Ca/P ratio changes according to rodent age), it doesn't follow that supplementation is necessary.

Further, there's no reason to think that the amount of Vitamin A or D is insufficient in whole rodent prey (in fact, the amount of Vit A in adult rats and mice is thought to be right around overdose levels *), so increasing those levels isn't useful and runs the risk of hypervitaminosis. (Whether dosing B vitamins in a convalescent animal is a separate question, one that's almost certainly answered in the positive, but I don't know the dosing protocols for herps at all, and would recommend checking with an exotics vet for details).

Supplementation is quite necessary for insectivores, only since captive raised insect prey is well established to be deficient in Vit A and D, and has a very poor Ca/P ratio. This doesn't translate into the need for supplementation in whole-prey carnivores, though (and herbivores should get a somewhat different supplement mix because the deficiencies in their diet are different).

A bit of a tangent from the point of this thread, but a useful one I hope.

*https://nagonline.net/wp-content/upl...nal02May29.pdf

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

I would recommend against supplementing whole rodent prey.

The reason calcium supplements are provided (when they are indicated) is because herps require a balanced calcium and phosphorus intake to avoid elevated blood plasma levels of either; an imbalance throws the metabolic checks and balances into a tailspin. The ideal Ca/P ratio of reptile foods is understood to be 1.5/1. Rats are already 1.77/1; increasing the calcium is counterproductive (a person could use a CaPO4 based supplement, but in the absence of diagnosed need this would simply put more metabolic pressure on the animal to excrete the extra minerals; excess blood Ca and P are actively passed back into the digestive tract and excreted with stool). Calcium demand in a convalescing animal might be presumed to be minimal, anyway, since replacement of muscle mass and fat stores will probably be taking place much more than bone mass increase, giving yet another reason not to supplement Ca.

Sometimes the fact that younger rodents contain less Ca per unit of mass than do adult rodents is taken as evidence that those animals are calcium deficient as prey items. But since it is the ratio of Ca to P that is the relevant metric (and since there is no data on the P content of neonate rodents that I've been able to uncover, and in absence of a reason to think that the Ca/P ratio changes according to rodent age), it doesn't follow that supplementation is necessary.

Further, there's no reason to think that the amount of Vitamin A or D is insufficient in whole rodent prey (in fact, the amount of Vit A in adult rats and mice is thought to be right around overdose levels *), so increasing those levels isn't useful and runs the risk of hypervitaminosis. (Whether dosing B vitamins in a convalescent animal is a separate question, one that's almost certainly answered in the positive, but I don't know the dosing protocols for herps at all, and would recommend checking with an exotics vet for details).

Supplementation is quite necessary for insectivores, only since captive raised insect prey is well established to be deficient in Vit A and D, and has a very poor Ca/P ratio. This doesn't translate into the need for supplementation in whole-prey carnivores, though (and herbivores should get a somewhat different supplement mix because the deficiencies in their diet are different).

A bit of a tangent from the point of this thread, but a useful one I hope.
*https://nagonline.net/wp-content/upl...nal02May29.pdf

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I do understand what you are saying, he is being given supplements via exotic vet recommendation and is under regular checks with them, they are at the moment believing that he has gone longer than a year without proper nutrition and its very likely he is lacking in a lot to keep him healthy, he is only being supplemented with a very small dose till they can take samples from him, the samples from the other snakes havent come back yet.

As for the mites they have been treated with frontline and currently with turrus mites to kill off any left alive and the stuff the turrus mites come in is always in the water bowls in the morning along with 1 or 2 dead mites.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

I would recommend against supplementing whole rodent prey.

The reason calcium supplements are provided (when they are indicated) is because herps require a balanced calcium and phosphorus intake to avoid elevated blood plasma levels of either; an imbalance throws the metabolic checks and balances into a tailspin. The ideal Ca/P ratio of reptile foods is understood to be 1.5/1. Rats are already 1.77/1; increasing the calcium is counterproductive (a person could use a CaPO4 based supplement, but in the absence of diagnosed need this would simply put more metabolic pressure on the animal to excrete the extra minerals; excess blood Ca and P are actively passed back into the digestive tract and excreted with stool). Calcium demand in a convalescing animal might be presumed to be minimal, anyway, since replacement of muscle mass and fat stores will probably be taking place much more than bone mass increase, giving yet another reason not to supplement Ca.

Sometimes the fact that younger rodents contain less Ca per unit of mass than do adult rodents is taken as evidence that those animals are calcium deficient as prey items. But since it is the ratio of Ca to P that is the relevant metric (and since there is no data on the P content of neonate rodents that I've been able to uncover, and in absence of a reason to think that the Ca/P ratio changes according to rodent age), it doesn't follow that supplementation is necessary.

Further, there's no reason to think that the amount of Vitamin A or D is insufficient in whole rodent prey (in fact, the amount of Vit A in adult rats and mice is thought to be right around overdose levels *), so increasing those levels isn't useful and runs the risk of hypervitaminosis. (Whether dosing B vitamins in a convalescent animal is a separate question, one that's almost certainly answered in the positive, but I don't know the dosing protocols for herps at all, and would recommend checking with an exotics vet for details).

Supplementation is quite necessary for insectivores, only since captive raised insect prey is well established to be deficient in Vit A and D, and has a very poor Ca/P ratio. This doesn't translate into the need for supplementation in whole-prey carnivores, though (and herbivores should get a somewhat different supplement mix because the deficiencies in their diet are different).

A bit of a tangent from the point of this thread, but a useful one I hope.

*https://nagonline.net/wp-content/upl...nal02May29.pdf

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Thanks for sharing & clarifying all this information. Personally, I haven't supplemented my snake's food in many years. Mainly it was only when I bred some, & it was only an occasional thing- which is pretty much the same the way I take my own vitamins too- I try not to over-do it, as I eat very healthy foods for the most part.

I was under the impression that most captive reptiles were calcium/ phosphorus deficient due to the inadequate uva/uvb light absorption from the sun. We provide artificial lighting to help supplement those reptiles that are diurnal so that the sub optimal calcium and phosphorus can be utilized. Ball pythons are underground and termite mound dwellers and are nocturnal so I don’t think they fall into the category normally. I thought the sunlight / artificial lighting was necessary for the uptake and utilization of calcium?

:cool:

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

I was under the impression that most captive reptiles were calcium/ phosphorus deficient due to the inadequate uva/uvb light absorption from the sun. We provide artificial lighting to help supplement those reptiles that are diurnal so that the sub optimal calcium and phosphorus can be utilized. Ball pythons are underground and termite mound dwellers and are nocturnal so I don’t think they fall into the category normally. I thought the sunlight / artificial lighting was necessary for the uptake and utilization of calcium?

:cool:

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Well, I don't think it is true that "most captive reptiles were calcium/ phosphorus deficient ". Most are doing just fine. Maybe that's not how you intended that sentence to come out, though. ;)

Captive reptiles that do have hypocalcemia may indeed have it due to inadequate levels of Vitamin D, since D3 is necessary for dietary calcium absorption. Many, or even most, reptiles we keep in captivity can utilize dietary D3 well (strict herbivores tend to be exceptions; they don't seem to utilize dietary D3 well). Almost all captive herp species (even nocturnal ones, since cutaneous D3 production is probably a conserved evolutionary trait) can in fact use UVB to manufacture D3. The only exception I've read about are some species of Varanus that cannot quite make enough D3 from sunlight and need some in their diet, which they typically get in no short supply. Not all species have been studied on this, of course, not by a long shot. I personally think dietary dosing (when D3 needs to be supplemented, that is) makes infinitely more sense when possible, since it is cheap and easy and foolproof, none of which is the case with captive UVB. But that's another topic, maybe.

All of this, though, is independent of the need for a correct Ca/P ratio in food. UVB exposure will not produce calcium, and will not correct a dietary imbalance of calcium and phosphorus. All animals need a dietary source of the proper ratio of Ca and P, and also need adequate blood levels of D3 (either from the diet, or UVB, or both).

Reptiles that eat primarily whole rodent (or other whole terrestrial vertebrate) prey have no shortage of dietary D3, nor of calcium or phosphorus in a fairly acceptable ratio.

I think the part that worries me most is the fact that there's other animals involved. I hope that they at least come back relatively 'okay'. I wouldn't wish it on anything but I hope it's just a matter of neglect as opposed to neglect and infectious diseases on top of that.

I also have my fingers crossed for you that this guy will start getting some body weight back and that he comes back with some decent labs when he's well enough for them. Hopefully there's no long term damage to the liver or kidneys from the malnourishment.

Regarding the vitamins, while I do agree that most ball pythons are relatively good when they're on the correct size of properly raised feeder rodent... I think doing some minor supplements in this case will definitely be a benefit to help jumpstart this guy. Glad the vet is on board with that as well. Eventually he can probably be weaned off those as his meal size increases.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

Well, I don't think it is true that "most captive reptiles were calcium/ phosphorus deficient ". Most are doing just fine. Maybe that's not how you intended that sentence to come out, though. ;)

Captive reptiles that do have hypocalcemia may indeed have it due to inadequate levels of Vitamin D, since D3 is necessary for dietary calcium absorption. Many, or even most, reptiles we keep in captivity can utilize dietary D3 well (strict herbivores tend to be exceptions; they don't seem to utilize dietary D3 well). Almost all captive herp species (even nocturnal ones, since cutaneous D3 production is probably a conserved evolutionary trait) can in fact use UVB to manufacture D3. The only exception I've read about are some species of Varanus that cannot quite make enough D3 from sunlight and need some in their diet, which they typically get in no short supply. Not all species have been studied on this, of course, not by a long shot. I personally think dietary dosing (when D3 needs to be supplemented, that is) makes infinitely more sense when possible, since it is cheap and easy and foolproof, none of which is the case with captive UVB. But that's another topic, maybe.

All of this, though, is independent of the need for a correct Ca/P ratio in food. UVB exposure will not produce calcium, and will not correct a dietary imbalance of calcium and phosphorus. All animals need a dietary source of the proper ratio of Ca and P, and also need adequate blood levels of D3 (either from the diet, or UVB, or both).

Reptiles that eat primarily whole rodent (or other whole terrestrial vertebrate) prey have no shortage of dietary D3, nor of calcium or phosphorus in a fairly acceptable ratio.

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Ok, gotcha! The D3 is the necessary ingredient for the utilization and uptake of calcium. I know uvb / uva doesn’t produce calcium/ phosphorus it was my impression that the rays and exposure helped intrinsically for it to be utilized and remain at optimal levels. Thanks for the correction. So the calcium containing D3 is the one someone should look for? Or the one vet recommended.

UPDATE.. Nakoa is doing great
Had a weigh in at the vets today and has gone from 520 grams (how he even weighed this much we don't know) which was his weight on the day we picked him up to 551 grams so gaining weight at a nice steady rate can even see he has gained weight as his ribs ain't so visible they are still but there is clearly a little fat between his skin and bone now, he hasn't pooped yet but the vets did a ultra sound on him and doesn't see any reason why he shouldn't we just think his food right now he isn't producing much waste from it.
and as for himself he is definitely coming out of his shell more he has some attitude :D

We are thinking of ways for physio for him and came up with a idea of a pipe climbing frame padded so when he grips the padding will add to his grip so that once he puts a bit more weight on he can start building some muscle back, but its all looking good for him. They still wasn't comfortable taking blood from him yet as he is still very under weight and very delicate.

The bloods for the others all came back fairly ok other than lacking in nutrition they are clear of anything serious thank god and also seem to be clear of mites now to but still treating to make sure.

but il still keep updating on how Nakoa is doing and once he has some more weight il post some pics of him

Thank you everyone for all the helpful advice