Santa Isabel Ground Boa Baby - New Owner, Questions, Discussion, Pictures

Hello all, been a long time. I joined over a decade ago after getting my first ball python. She was adopted, I think, to someone I met on here, not sure.

Anyway, I recently aquired two new snakes, one of them is a Santa Isabel Island Ground Boa. Have done some searching I've found a few articles but they mainly refer to Solomon Island Boas. I'm aware the scientific names are a big deal around the reptile community and i've seen two variations. Can anyone tell me which is correct for my particular snake?

"Candoia paulsoni" or "Candoia carinata paulsoni"



Second question right off the bat, my baby was born New Year's Eve. So easy to keep track of age here, but also very small. I about go cross-eyed while trying to inspect him. But tonight I noticed something which I can not tell is normal, or a bad thing? Do Baby Boa's have a sort of... Belly button like thing? Or does my baby have some kind of weird thing going on here? (See photos, hopefully the link works. Not used to doing it like this)...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mWSNaSi792oeRJFw5


I hope to keep this thread going for discussion, all my future/other questions (Yeah I have others)... And for sharing photos (I am a photo-nut and have many to share and would love to see other's).

Hi there! I also own a Soloman Island ground boa. The "Santa Isabel" refers to locale in this instance. C. paulsoni is correct for this species, but I believe previously that they were considered a subspecies for C. carinata before they were reclassified.

When I obtained mine, it had been long enough (3 months) that she had already shed any remaining embryonic sack off. Considering how young yours is, I'm not entirely surprised that this little guy wouldn't have. The pictures do look like a belly button to me, and as it ages it should disappear with time.

They're neat and gorgeous little snakes, and I hope you enjoy yours as much as I do mine!

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Originally Posted by vkahri

Hello all, been a long time. I joined over a decade ago after getting my first ball python. She was adopted, I think, to someone I met on here, not sure.

Anyway, I recently aquired two new snakes, one of them is a Santa Isabel Island Ground Boa. Have done some searching I've found a few articles but they mainly refer to Solomon Island Boas. I'm aware the scientific names are a big deal around the reptile community and i've seen two variations. Can anyone tell me which is correct for my particular snake?

"Candoia paulsoni" or "Candoia carinata paulsoni"



Second question right off the bat, my baby was born New Year's Eve. So easy to keep track of age here, but also very small. I about go cross-eyed while trying to inspect him. But tonight I noticed something which I can not tell is normal, or a bad thing? Do Baby Boa's have a sort of... Belly button like thing? Or does my baby have some kind of weird thing going on here? (See photos, hopefully the link works. Not used to doing it like this)...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mWSNaSi792oeRJFw5


I hope to keep this thread going for discussion, all my future/other questions (Yeah I have others)... And for sharing photos (I am a photo-nut and have many to share and would love to see other's).

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Welcome back! I have no experience with these cuties, but I took a look at your photos- her umbilicus (where she was developing from) appears slightly infected to me: usually it ends up being a tiny closed slit, & later, often disappears altogether on snakes.

If that was my snake, I'd probably dab either a little diluted povidone iodine (aka Betadine) or Vetericyn ointment (FOR reptiles) on that now & then, while it heals up. If it doesn't, see an experienced herp vet. This site can help you locate one: https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661

Most here use the Tapatalk app for posting photos- https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-Post-Pictures

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Originally Posted by vkahri

I about go cross-eyed while trying to inspect him.

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A loupe is a good tool to have. I have a few, and the one I like the best is this exact model:

https://www.snakemuseum.com/sexing-t...d-30x-60x.html

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

A loupe is a good tool to have. I have a few, and the one I like the best is this exact model:

https://www.snakemuseum.com/sexing-t...d-30x-60x.html

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Loupes are awesome, & not only for snakes- they're just great to have on hand. :gj: For other hobbies too, or even for that splinter...

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Originally Posted by Starscream

Hi there! I also own a Soloman Island ground boa. The "Santa Isabel" refers to locale in this instance. C. paulsoni is correct for this species, but I believe previously that they were considered a subspecies for C. carinata before they were reclassified.

When I obtained mine, it had been long enough (3 months) that she had already shed any remaining embryonic sack off. Considering how young yours is, I'm not entirely surprised that this little guy wouldn't have. The pictures do look like a belly button to me, and as it ages it should disappear with time.

They're neat and gorgeous little snakes, and I hope you enjoy yours as much as I do mine!

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Thank you for this info. Feel free to share any photos if you have any?... Since your's was already 3 months old, did you have any trouble feeding pinkies?

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

usually it ends up being a tiny closed slit, & later, often disappears altogether on snakes.

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A site I have been referencing says that "Many neonates are born with big yolk reserves and are just not hungry for the first few weeks after birth." And mine is just about 30 days old. So I'm wondering if it's actually still normal or what the time period is when it should fall off or heal up... In any case I'm grateful for the resources I've looked at them and will be making use of them. I've used photobucket in the past, and am glad to see such clear directions for the other methods as well.
I'll be getting some of the medicine you mentioned... Lets say I felt it best to administer some, if diluted Betadine, what would be a good dilution ratio? Would you just use a cotton swab or let it sit in a small bath (and if bath, for how long?)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

if that was my snake, I'd probably dab either a little diluted povidone iodine (aka Betadine) or Vetericyn ointment (FOR reptiles) on that now & then, while it heals up. If it doesn't, see an experienced herp vet. This site can help you locate one: https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661

Most here use the Tapatalk app for posting photos- https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-Post-Pictures

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The site I mentioned that I've been referencing is here:
http://www.kingsnake.com/candoia/review.html

http://www.kingsnake.com/candoia/book.html

http://www.kingsnake.com/candoia/gem.html

...I noticed my replies showed up directly one after the other, rather than nested under the person's post I was replying to. Sorry for three posts in a row from me but I didn't want to put this in with those replies....

So after reading over the information on the website that has become my sole source of information for these guys, (here: http://www.kingsnake.com/candoia/book.html), I think I'm in the situation of a non-pinkie eating neonate. It looks a bit on the thin side to me. I don't know if it has eaten at all since it was born, I was told that it was fed pinkie or fuzzy tails, either they had to force feed him, or possibly they didn't actually get any food down him yet. I'd like to avoid any force feeding on something so small and young if I can.

Yesterday I offered the smallest pinkie I could find out of a batch of 6 frozens from Petsmart. I let it thaw in room temperature then hot water to make it warm and tried dangling it around in front of him like I used to with my ball python.
Didn't take it.
Tried leaving it in with the snake for a few hours. Didn't take it. I had nothing to scent with though and have been too unsure of what exactly to get for trying this scenting method. I'm used to the purchase of tree frogs, house geckos, or anoles being to keep as pets themselves, not as feeders. If I were to acquire any of them, I doubt I could find any already frozen. The author of the articles I'm referencing mentioned this method:
"I keep a small deli cup of anoles, house geckos and green tree frogs in my freezer. Place a newborn pinkie in the deli cup with the thawed out frogs and lizards. I usually add a few drops of water to create a slightly wet “broth”. Let the pinkie roll around on top of the mixture for approximately 1 hour. This will allow the pinkie to absorb the scents onto its skin."

If I can only get live anoles or tree frogs perhaps I should just buy one or two of them and offer them live?
-But then if my snake does not take them, well I don't have a set up for frogs or anoles... So then perhaps I should offer a live one then if it doesn't take, put it in the freezer and use it to try the scenting method later?...
-But then there is the size difference. I've seen only one or two examples of baby Candoia eating, it looked like they could take food much larger than their body width. I'm used to most tree frogs being about the size of a quarter or more. My boa is barely the width of a pencil.

Speaking of frogs I've had this fear of getting something that could be toxic. I know there is a high risk with fish, and found a list elsewhere about which fish were toxic and which were OK for feeding snakes. But are there any similar risks with frogs so I don't get the wrong kind? Is there a potentially "wrong kind"?

One last mention citing this article again: "I have spoken with many other Candoia enthusiasts over the years who have told me of their experiences with feeding neonates. Earthworms, minnows, feeder guppies and tiny goldfish were all accepted as first meals by neonate Candoia. I personally, have used tuna fish to scent pinkies with amazing results. Neonates that accept pinkies on the first try are often the exception as most baby Candoia instinctively prefer to reach out and grab swift moving prey items such as lizards or frogs"

OK, this has me intrigued. I'd love to try earthworms, or scenting with tuna. What kind of tuna? Canned tuna? Already cooked or raw? Oy vey I have no idea. I've also heard of other meats being used for neonates... not necessarily Candoia but I'm curious if it would be possible... like liver or heart... chicken liver, or chicken heart? Has anyone else heard of this, and if so have you ever tried it?

Ok.. sorry this is long. Thanks for any helpful feedback!

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Originally Posted by vkahri

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I'll be getting some of the medicine you mentioned... Lets say I felt it best to administer some, if diluted Betadine, what would be a good dilution ratio? Would you just use a cotton swab or let it sit in a small bath (and if bath, for how long?) ...

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For minor wounds, topical antiseptics that are safe for snakes include the Vetericyn ointment (version for snakes-just a little dab, please) or Betadine. If you use Betadine on a snake, dilute it with water so it looks like weak tea- & apply a little using a Q-tip- DO NOT SOAK this snake! -that would likely make it worse.

As I said before, that spot just looks a little infected to me (the red & yellowish colors)- it's healing but it will take time (sheds!) to fully disappear also. What substrate is she on?

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

For minor wounds, topical antiseptics that are safe for snakes include the Vetericyn ointment (version for snakes-just a little dab, please) or Betadine. If you use Betadine on a snake, dilute it with water so it looks like weak tea- & apply a little using a Q-tip- DO NOT SOAK this snake! -that would likely make it worse.

As I said before, that spot just looks a little infected to me (the red & yellowish colors)- it's healing but it will take time (sheds!) to fully disappear also. What substrate is she on?

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Thank you. I think it's a "he"... I've read that usually only the males have those little claws by the cloaca. However, is that a misnomer?

Very small clear plastic bin with air holes, plain white paper towel. A tiny water dish and a tiny ramekin with moist sphagna moss in it, which he tends to stay curled up in. Also some small fake foliage for cover.

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Originally Posted by vkahri

males have those little claws by the cloaca. However, is that a misnomer?

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They are known as spurs.

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Originally Posted by vkahri

Thank you for this info. Feel free to share any photos if you have any?... Since your's was already 3 months old, did you have any trouble feeding pinkies?

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I do have a thread for mine here with pictures: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...ite-phase-Inej

The breeder I chose (Stygian Exotics on Morph Market) is very particular about making sure their snakes are well started on frozen/thawed before shipping, as not transitioning them properly and then shipping them does up the failure to thrives chances for this species. She had 10 consecutive frozen/thawed pinkies under her belt before I was able to obtain her, and ate after two weeks in my care. She immediately went into shed the week she arrived and was not at all interested in eating, which the breeder said was typical of the species.

I do have all the records of her feeding attempts with the breeder. She was born 3/31/21 and first ate on 4/22/21, so less than a month between.

I'll be honest, I was a little surprised to hear how young yours is. Had it eaten with the breeder before you obtained it? I know Stygian Exotics starts them on anoles if they won't take mouse pinkies, and then moves to mice and then f/t mice after that.

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Originally Posted by KMG

They are known as spurs.

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Thank you I couldn't think of the name last night.

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Originally Posted by Starscream

Had it eaten with the breeder before you obtained it? I know Stygian Exotics starts them on anoles if they won't take mouse pinkies, and then moves to mice and then f/t mice after that.

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By word of mouth only, they said they started on mouse tails. After some of the responses on here, I have a feeling they got a female that was gravid and had a bunch of unwanted babies and were just trying to get rid of them.

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Originally Posted by vkahri

By word of mouth only, they said they started on mouse tails. After some of the responses on here, I have a feeling they got a female that was gravid and had a bunch of unwanted babies and were just trying to get rid of them.

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If that's the case, that is incredibly unfortunate. They're amazing little snakes, and I really do love watching mine.

I personally have not had any bad feeders here, so I can't offer any advice about how to get this little guy started. I do know they have a preference for anoles as babies, as their diet in the wild is generally geared towards lizards.

While I did get pretty lucky in this aspect, when I was researching this species I was also looking into potentially raising mourning geckos as a feeder on the chance that I could not acquire a SI ground boa that was on rodents. It may be worth looking into mourning geckos or anoles as a source to hopefully potentially tempt this little guy into eating.

Hopefully someone with more experience on getting stubborn snakes started on food can chime in.

Disclaimer: I've not kept this species.

I do breed hognose and mountain kings, both of which can be troublesome starters, though not to the extent of this species from what I've read. I would feed live WC lizards only as the last of last resorts (actually, I personally wouldn't feed WC live at all for fear of transmission of known or unknown pathogens, and even scenting with a CB animal is borderline IMO). For the species I breed, there is a range of tricks, all of which I've tried:

live pinks
washing pinks
boiling pinks
braining pinks
scenting any of the above with canned tuna juice or KFC grease
scenting any of the above with lizard (anole, MG, house gecko, sceloporus), either live, frozen or pureed
feeding live of any of those lizards
force feeding rodent tails
force feeding pinks
tube feeding a mix of egg yolk, chicken baby food and a little reptile supplement

I no longer feed live lizards, nor force feed or tube feed. The former is too risky, and the latter two not productive, so I end up euthanizing a couple hatchlings here and there.

MGs might be a worthy food source, but the upkeep of a colony big enough to feed even one neonate snake would considerable. I've not bred anoles, but it is the same situation (compounded by the fact that anoles are much more equipment intensive and much more expensive to produce than MGs).

Hopefully people who want to keep this species are willing to seek out true CB specimens and pay what they're worth, and hopefully advanced breeders start to step up and get breeding projects going with the species.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

I do breed hognose and mountain kings, ....

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I wanted a hognose to begin with but ended up with a bullsnake (who is an incredibly voracious feeder, all the time) and later this baby Isabele Ground Boa (who hasn't eaten for me yet).

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

(actually, I personally wouldn't feed WC live at all for fear of transmission of known or unknown pathogens, and even scenting with a CB animal is borderline IMO).

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I concur, I have no intention of trying to feed anything wild caught. Besides, its winter here, there are green anoles in my area but they are not going to be around till warm weather returns.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

For the species I breed, there is a range of tricks, all of which I've tried:

live pinks
washing pinks
boiling pinks
braining pinks
scenting any of the above with canned tuna juice or KFC grease
scenting any of the above with lizard (anole, MG, house gecko, sceloporus), either live, frozen or pureed
feeding live of any of those lizards
....

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Was wanting to try a live pink next but again, hard to acquire.
Washing pinks? Washing in what?
KFC grease??? Like from your bucket of chicken????
Scented with ...pureed lizard? :O ...lol I don't have a blender but... I imagine you put them into a blender? :O :O

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

I no longer feed live lizards, nor force feed or tube feed. The former is too risky, and the latter two not productive...

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yeah, a live lizard, especially if not very small, I could see that being dangerous for my boa as tiny as he is. Which is why I've procrastinated trying to get one, how could I find one small enough?...
I really don't want to do any kind of force feeding if I can avoid it. I would go to the vet first and if they wanted to administer something I'd let them do it.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

MGs might be a worthy food source, but the upkeep of a colony big enough to feed even one neonate snake would considerable. I've not bred anoles, but it is the same situation (compounded by the fact that anoles are much more equipment intensive and much more expensive to produce than MGs).

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Originally Posted by Starscream

I do know they have a preference for anoles as babies, as their diet in the wild is generally geared towards lizards.
....
It may be worth looking into mourning geckos or anoles as a source to hopefully potentially tempt this little guy into eating.

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I'm thinking of trying to acquire a small enough anole, or tree frog if I can't get a pinky to work, or some sort of small fish. A single MG usually runs around $30. No idea what an anole or tree frog would cost. If I can get him to eat a flavored pinky or small fish first, I'd like to try those before making a riskier purchase. I actually have 3 MG's as pets so it's hard to imagine buying one as a feeder, but I would if I had to. My three haven't really begun to lay eggs though they are mature. The largest has laid 3 but they all failed, one because it got knocked and messed up the position of the air sack inside, the other two got eaten before I could remove them.

I would really like to try a small type of feeding fish but I am leary of accidentally getting something that could be harmful, if eaten. Does anyone have any info or advice? Here is a quote from this site that I've been referencing:
"Earthworms, minnows, feeder guppies and tiny goldfish were all accepted as first meals by neonate Candoia." (from: http://www.kingsnake.com/candoia/book.html)
...Actually I'd love to try an earthworm too! No problem if that's not eaten. I just find it hard to believe my boa would go for that. And I'd have to get it from a bait shop, which is doable. But again, me with all the questions.... Do farm raised earthworms get fed anything that could be toxic to my boa? I mean do they put any supplements in the soil to make them grow bigger or have a certain appeal to fish, that is not natural?

I've never purchased fish to use as feeders. Has anyone experience with this? I can search online and see these examples being used for garter snakes: salmon, tilapia, trout, guppies.....If you feed salmon or tilapia, how do you do that? specifically, in what form of fish meat do you use? uncooked? canned? I mean you can not be specific enough for me here. Leave no room for doubt. Or if I get guppies or goldfish... Like a plain feeder goldfish or guppy you might offer to a Red Ear Slider (turtle)???

Small update (if the link works)... I got some breeder info from Starscream which I'll be reaching out to later. But tonight I gave in and attempted force feeding a f/t fuzzy mouse tail. It took some patience but I did it, wasn't fun, worried about hurting him. Video clip is post feeding. I know a mouse tail isn't exactly nutritious but I feel better knowing there's something in his belly tonight.

https://youtu.be/0nPDnU8Qo0c

I agree with your assessment in the video that he is looking scarily skinny. I really, really hope you can get something more substantial in him soon, even if force feeding is necessary. My heart goes out to both of you! Really hoping Inej's breeder has some advice that will help get him going.

Thank you. And while force feeding is far from preferable, if I have to I think I'll try these. I'm looking forward to asking your breeder their thoughts on it.
https://reptilinks.com/collections/m...and-mini-links

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Originally Posted by vkahri

Washing pinks? Washing in what?
KFC grease??? Like from your bucket of chicken????
Scented with ...pureed lizard? :O ...lol I don't have a blender but... I imagine you put them into a blender? :O :O

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I'm sorry I missed this when it was posted. Pinks are washed with regular Dawn dish soap, rinsed well and patted dry with a fresh paper towel. Yes, KFC grease from the bottom of the bucket. Scenting with a lizard is done by rubbing the pink on the lizard's body to transfer some of the scent, generally after the pink has been washed as above. Some people do use lizard puree, but I have not tried that.

Though I don't do this anymore with the species I work with except to administer medication, tube feeding is IMO preferential to force feeding. I've kept snakes alive, growing and in apparent good health for more than a year (at which point I gave up and euthanized) with a mix of chicken baby food, egg yolk and Repashy Calcium Plus (eyeballed amounts; no idea how much is the right amount) fed via stomach tube about 2x week. Very easy and relatively stress free for snake and keeper. It takes some research to figure out tube feeding -- find the glottis (really easy, and virtually impossible to miss and hit the glottis), measure down to stomach, get a practiced technique to avoid any coming back up -- and some equipment (I use a dosing needle set from Reptile Basics for small animals, and vet stomach tubes for larger ones).

There's a device called a pinky pump that macerates whole rodent prey and then runs it through a tube, though I've never used one and have read that they're a challenge to get to work well.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

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Though I don't do this anymore with the species I work with except to administer medication, tube feeding is IMO preferential to force feeding. I've kept snakes alive, growing and in apparent good health for more than a year (at which point I gave up and euthanized) with a mix of chicken baby food, egg yolk and Repashy Calcium Plus (eyeballed amounts; no idea how much is the right amount) fed via stomach tube about 2x week. Very easy and relatively stress free for snake and keeper. It takes some research to figure out tube feeding -- find the glottis (really easy, and virtually impossible to miss and hit the glottis), measure down to stomach, get a practiced technique to avoid any coming back up -- and some equipment (I use a dosing needle set from Reptile Basics for small animals, and vet stomach tubes for larger ones).

There's a device called a pinky pump that macerates whole rodent prey and then runs it through a tube, though I've never used one and have read that they're a challenge to get to work well.

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I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that finds "tube-feeding" to be much gentler than "force feeding", & I've had success with it on various snakes too. There's many 'opinions' shared to the contrary, but I have to assume it was mostly not from their own personal experience, or from doing it the wrong way (especially- not using the proper equipment- oh does that matter!).

Pinkie pumps- I have NEVER used one. I have heard of reptiles being killed or injured when the pump clogs, then suddenly & forcefully releases into the animal. :O So no thanks... but I'll happily share my tube-feeding method (write-up) with anyone who requests it. ;)

Still not eating... I've force fed fuzzy tails once every week and a half on average the past two months. Not sure what to do. Will a vet even be able to do anything for a snake the size of a worm? (like a big nightcrawler)....

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Originally Posted by vkahri

Still not eating... I've force fed fuzzy tails once every week and a half on average the past two months. Not sure what to do. Will a vet even be able to do anything for a snake the size of a worm? (like a big nightcrawler)....

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I've tube-fed 7" hatchling desert glossy snakes before- let me know & I can pm you instructions if you want. Sorry your snake is being so difficult- some just are. :( I don't think your vet can do anything other than tube-feed it for you, but many snakes up-chuck their tube-feeding from handling stress & travel- it's best done by you at home. These are known to be difficult snakes- no telling how long it may take before it becomes an easy feeder for you, if ever- but we're all pulling for you.

I would be interested in giving that a try. Thank you!
What I've managed to get into him on my own has been stressful on both of us.
I recently got a dozen more small pinkies. I'm just trying one a day, leaving them in the enclosure for him with different scenting techniques but I think they will all end up being wasted. I think they are too big to try force feeding. Others have told me he would have no problem eating them if I can get an eating response but I think they are too big for a snake that is probably weak from not eating. I'll try to get a photo later.

I have one or two micro repti links left I might try to get into him this week but it's harder to do than a fuzzy tail. They break up and I don't get the whole thing in. They would be way more nutritious than a tail though.

PM sent. :snake:

Does he have hides? Things small enough he can feel snug & safe in? Many snakes won't eat without that & I didn't see where you mentioned?