Kevin Hit 3.

The clutch was a September, 2017 extravaganza out at Inland Reptile.

When I purchased this guy He was about 2 and a half years old. Here we are in mid September and I'm happy that my youngest snake is a semi mature, 3 years old.

I honestly thought he'd be a bit larger than this but he's slowly getting bigger now that he's being kept as a pet.

My guess is he's 4 and a half feet maybe a tad more but he's not a 5 footer yet.

These photos are typical deck rail shots so don't expect him to look much different than he has in the past.

Happy Birthday Kev.

https://i.imgur.com/V2MXUh0.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/g5hX4mT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pAQpUyO.jpg



A little pissy here at the end.
https://i.imgur.com/JVTk3jh.jpg

Perfect balance of black and red on that snake! Hard to beat, dude. And a little attitude isn’t too bad, it’s nice to be kept on your toes in a manageable way haha [emoji41] My brissy male nailed me the other night but he’s sub 100 grams so it was more funny than anything.

hApPiE bUrPhDaEy, KeViN! [emoji322][emoji3060][emoji512][emoji216]


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Perfect balance of black and red on that snake! Hard to beat, dude. And a little attitude isn’t too bad, it’s nice to be kept on your toes in a manageable way haha [emoji41] My brissy male nailed me the other night but he’s sub 100 grams so it was more funny than anything.

hApPiE bUrPhDaEy, KeViN! [emoji322][emoji3060][emoji512][emoji216]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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He's a non threatening poser for the most part. The dude is surprisingly heavy for his length however I'm surprised he's not longer. He may actually be longer than I'm estimating as I'm conservative on length guesstimates compared to some folks.

I'm hoping for an eight footer eventually and if he doesn't get cracking on that soon, Jewel will get his cage and he'll end up in the smaller cage.

Jewel is in shed now for the first time since November 20th, 2019. That's crazy to me but then again, reptiles are on their own schedule, not ours.

I really dig Kevin and agree with you. The black agents are very much appreciated here. I prefer 50% hypo to 100%. I tend to like the Mother Nature paint jobs the most.

Kevin looks fantastic!!!!

Fernie has been here almost a year already, can you believe it???? I can't wait for her to start filling out a bit, she's all length so far. I'll show her these pics of Kev to inspire her!! Hahahahhaha.

Happy bday Kevin!!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

Kevin looks fantastic!!!!

Fernie has been here almost a year already, can you believe it???? I can't wait for her to start filling out a bit, she's all length so far. I'll show her these pics of Kev to inspire her!! Hahahahhaha.

Happy bday Kevin!!!!!

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It was you that inspired me.

There were not a lot of Bredli folks here or at least I didn't notice way back when.

I was always interested in them but you and I believe "Rock" Were the proud owners. Zig also I think.

I passed on the Brisbane coastal when I went the retic route and that was a mistake. It took a lot of thought on passing again because JM just snatched up a Brissy. I had a coastal already so I went the Centralian route and I'm very pleased.

They are very interesting and FAR more arboreal than I had expected.

I'll try to take some non deck rail photos before the cold weather gets here.

Awwww, shucks!!! Hahahahhaha.

Nah, still not a lot of Bredli around here, but it's cool to see the list growing. I see a lot more on IG. They seem to be growing in popularity, which I think is awesome.

If I remember correctly Ziggy and Rock were the first two Bredli I saw on the forum.

Fernie is displaying more arboreal behavior than I anticipated as well. I'll be curious to see if that continues as she gets larger. I've been letting her use that shoe rack every time she comes out now and I've experimented with setting her and the rack in different locations and watched. She always ends up on the top tier, it's just a question of how quickly she makes her way up. She tends to explore a bit before heading straight to the rack, but will typically head in the direction of the rack regardless of where I put her or the rack. The other times she makes a run for behind the TV....:rolleyes:

I think it's cool that those on the forum who keep Bredli seem to have them at different ages too. It's fun watching them at different life stages.
I'm sure I'll be seeing hatchling pics from other keepers down the road and saying "I remember when Fernie was that little" hahahaha.

Kevin's looking great Gio! He's bigger than my 4 y/o Bredli. I don't know why he won't grow. My other carpets around his age are much larger.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

Kevin's looking great Gio! He's bigger than my 4 y/o Bredli. I don't know why he won't grow. My other carpets around his age are much larger.

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I'm thinking he may hit a spurt Zig. I was blown away by my female, Coastal this last year. She's seven, hasn't shed (now blue) since November 2019. But suddenly she is over 8 feet.

I'm not well versed in keeping Centralian carpets so I'm not sure if mine or yours will hit a spurt.

I'm thinking our Bredli will hit a spurt eventually. I'm probably going to upside the prey items shortly.

I'll try to get an accurate measurement and better photos soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

Kevin's looking great Gio! He's bigger than my 4 y/o Bredli. I don't know why he won't grow. My other carpets around his age are much larger.

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I'm guessing he's not done as well.

Casey Cannon keeps his breeder males in the 4-5 foot range and said that as long as they're not over fed many males will top out around 5 foot. Of course, that's only his experience, so that's a small sample size, but he definitely seems to know his Bredli.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

I'm guessing he's not done as well.

Casey Cannon keeps his breeder males in the 4-5 foot range and said that as long as they're not over fed many males will top out around 5 foot. Of course, that's only his experience, so that's a small sample size, but he definitely seems to know his Bredli.

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This is somewhat opposite of what Nick Mutton says in some ways.

Male species that combat are the larger species in the wild. Nick and I have discussed this and it actually applies to male retics as well.

In captivity you'll see larger females but the key there seems to be that large males cost more to feed and house so they are "kept" at a certain size. Larger females are desired because they are supposedly mature earlier and can breed and produce more based on their size.

Without being able to study wild morelia long term, my guess is as follows.

Larger, wild males will be the more dominant in combat and will become successful breeders. Larger females will also be more successful as they are not solely focused on feeding and are able to support giving birth.

If you are not breeding your snakes and simply keeping them as pets, my guess is males and females (species dependent) will roughly attain the same size.

I'll see how Kevin progresses as it will be an interesting captive observation when looking at sexual size dimorphism.

Happy Birthday Kevin!

You have an outstanding looking animal there, love it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gio

This is somewhat opposite of what Nick Mutton says in some ways.

Male species that combat are the larger species in the wild. Nick and I have discussed this and it actually applies to male retics as well.

In captivity you'll see larger females but the key there seems to be that large males cost more to feed and house so they are "kept" at a certain size. Larger females are desired because they are supposedly mature earlier and can breed and produce more based on their size.

Without being able to study wild morelia long term, my guess is as follows.

Larger, wild males will be the more dominant in combat and will become successful breeders. Larger females will also be more successful as they are not solely focused on feeding and are able to support giving birth.

If you are not breeding your snakes and simply keeping them as pets, my guess is males and females (species dependent) will roughly attain the same size.

I'll see how Kevin progresses as it will be an interesting captive observation when looking at sexual size dimorphism.

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Interesting to see two schools of thought here. Needless to say, Nick is well regarded as the authority on carpets, Bredli included. So his word carries a bit more weight for me. Though I don't discount Casey's knowledge or experience, I think Nick holds the trump card (I use that term loosely, hehehe).

All said, I'm loving this species!

Last I talked to nick his words on the dimorphism subject regarding carpets was that on average, the females are the larger sex. However, he went on to elaborate that the record setters for maximum size of almost all the species are almost invariably males.

Those stories we hear of the fabled 12-14’ coastals are the exception to the rule and pretty much exclusively males. Curious to see how that pans out with my pair of Brisbane coastals. They’re not going to be fed for massive size but I’m probably going to feed them somewhat similarly, maybe a bit less for the male, and see where things go.

The larger animals seem to be not the best breeders according to many sources and I’d like to have a shot or two at producing them down the road so we’ll see how things go.

Curious to see how it pans out size wise for the rest of the Morelia Mafia’s critters here as well


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

Interesting to see two schools of thought here. Needless to say, Nick is well regarded as the authority on carpets, Bredli included. So his word carries a bit more weight for me. Though I don't discount Casey's knowledge or experience, I think Nick holds the trump card (I use that term loosely, hehehe).

All said, I'm loving this species!

---

Nick sent me studies from Shine and some other science based studies. Most are the study of Australian snakes but there are others as well.

The BIGGEST factor seems to be wild VS captive when it comes to discussing sexual size dimorphism and breeding.

In captivity, a smaller male may be a better breeder. Why? It may come down to overfeeding in captivity a lot of keepers just don't do the right thing. In nature, I have no doubt a larger male will be more successful. They will win in combat and go on to breed.

Rapidly grown, large males in captivity are not the same as successful, large males in nature that have had the advantage in finding food. An athlete and completely out of shape person can both weigh 280 pounds. There usually isn't any question as to which body type will succeed in combat. They reached their weight in different ways.

Too many things change in captivity to compare wild VS captive.

Nick used the analogy of male lions being the larger sex in the wild. They combat for territory and mating rights.

I first discussed sexual size dimorphism with Gus Rentfro regarding boa constrictors when I was just getting into this. Gus is a world authority on boas.

Gus felt a male boa could certainly attain the same size as a female boa if being properly raised as a pet. No pheromonal cues from a female could likely keep a male "on feed" vs going crazy looking for a mate.

This is an interesting and under studied topic, however I'm still expecting Kevin to make at least 7 feet.

Bredli are only second in size to the most southern form of coastal carpets (Brisbane locality) and tend to be heavier but not as long. That's right off Nick's webpage.

That said, there are exceptions in every form.

I'll keep Kevin's updates coming as he ages and grows.


Check out this lunker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3ARxHtiNCI


And this male coastal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3cgRxyrSRI

The only way that snake could be better looking is if it was a boa. :P

One thing I know for sure: Big snakes eat big meals.

I'm curious since I know little about Carpets. The largest Suriname/Guyana boas are found in the wild...it is very rare that a captive raised 10 footer shows up but 12+ foot wild boas are found. Is it the same with Carpets?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bns

The only way that snake could be better looking is if it was a boa. :P

One thing I know for sure: Big snakes eat big meals.

I'm curious since I know little about Carpets. The largest Suriname/Guyana boas are found in the wild...it is very rare that a captive raised 10 footer shows up but 12+ foot wild boas are found. Is it the same with Carpets?

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I'm not sure with carpets, but the videos I see of the snake catchers in Australia sure make me think they get pretty large in the wild.

Carpets, specifically coastal carpets have adapted very well to human encroachment. It seems the areas around homes provide a host of prey opportunities be it wild animals, or domestic dogs and cats.

They certainly seem large when the snake catchers show up.

The most beautiful boa I've seen is wrapped around somebody's leg in Vin Russo's book.

Huge and solid as rock. It was a Suri I believe.

I don't expect my female coastal to get much larger, yet she surprised me this last year with a growth spurt at 6 years old and now she's 7.

She's not a predictable eater, I typically try once a month these days but she goes longer too.

First of all, happy birthday Kevin! That's a very handsome bredli right there.

Now y'all better strap in, because all this talk about snake growth means that you just wandered into my academic field! So pardon me while I put my academic nerd hat on, grab my lecture materials, and deliver my knowledge of snake growth and thoughts on why captive males may be smaller than their wild counterparts for all those who are interested. :D

The short: Snakes have indeterminate growth and will continue to grow over time using the energy they have left over after basic metabolic costs and reproduction are addressed. The demands of birth and egg-laying means females typically have more mass compared to a male of the same length, though this difference can go away or even reverse if male competition for mates is a factor. Captive males may be smaller than their wild counterparts because it's more convenient for keepers and we're capable of controlling their growth.

The no-so-short: So, let's start at the very beginning with the basics of snake growth. Almost all snakes have something we academics like to call indeterminate growth. In other words, snakes will continue to grow throughout their lifetime, and don't have a "maximum size" that they will stop growing at. If they're alive and have the energy they need to grow, they'll do so.

What determines the amount energy snakes have to grow? Well, like most animals, snakes gain their energy by eating food. So, the more food a snake manages to eat, the more energy they have to burn. Most animals use their energy for three main purposes: basic metabolic costs, reproduction, and growth. Basic metabolic costs are the costs of keeping your body running -- they're the energetic costs of breathing, pumping your heart, digesting your food, powering your brain, and the like. Animals will use the energy they gain to address basic metabolic costs before anything else. Once basic metabolic costs are taken care of, an animal will then direct their remaining energy towards growth or reproduction. How an animal directs their spare energy between the two depends on their circumstances.

In the case of snakes, physically mature individuals will likely put a considerable portion of their spare energy towards reproduction. This means bringing their reproductive organs back online, producing gametes, and -- in the case of females -- growing eggs and babies. The physics of egg production and pregnancy require a larger snake compared to one that simply produces gametes, which is why female snakes are typically bulkier and more massive compared to males of a similar size. However, this sexual dimorphism can break down when male combat is a factor -- the larger male typically wins the fight -- or even reverse if the pressure of competition is high enough. Any energy that's left over after reproduction can be put towards growth.

Individuals who are incapable of reproducing -- whether it's an immature juvenile or a lone adult that doesn't receive the cues they need to trigger mating behavior -- will put their spare energy towards growth instead. For juveniles, this means eventually reaching physical maturity (so they can reproduce) and becoming less of an easy prey item. For otherwise mature adults, this could mean increasing their reproductive fitness (ie. getting larger to better fight rivals or lay more eggs) or their overall survival fitness (ie. maybe bigger's just better in the habitat where you live). Since they don't have to worry about reproduction and have comparably lower metabolic costs, a juvenile's growth rate will normally be much greater than an adult's. However, decades of incremental growth and the occasional glut of food (ie. a massive intake of energy) means adult snakes are still capable of growing quite a bit! If I had to guess, those 12-13' coastals are very old snakes and very successful hunters.

So with all of that being addressed, why are captive male snakes typically smaller than their wild counterparts? Well:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gio

In captivity you'll see larger females but the key there seems to be that large males cost more to feed and house so they are "kept" at a certain size. Larger females are desired because they are supposedly mature earlier and can breed and produce more based on their size

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Gio pretty much hit the nail on the head. Captive males' smaller size may be a factor of our ability to control snakes' food intake and, by extension, the amount of spare energy they have to grow. Larger females are necessary to produce more young, but smaller males can still get their job done while being easier and more economical to keep. It's almost a no-brainer for a breeders. I'll also add that small breeder males are putting more energy into reproduction compared to a "pet" male of the same age, and thus have less spare energy left for growth.

Gio's also made good observations on why smaller males may be better breeders than smaller males in captivity. Size does not equal reproductive fitness. A young, rapidly grown male may not yet be sexually mature despite being "the right size." Furthermore, it's likely that power-feeding levels of rapid growth disrupt a snake's proper bodily functions and stunt their proper development, which leads to poor breeding performance. Snakes will mature when they're ready. A slow-grown male will be smaller than a rapidly grown male at your average age of sexual maturity, but they'll probably have had more balanced growth overall, which makes them better breeders.

I'm going to stop myself for now. Apologies if this came across as too lecture-y for people -- I wound up teaching this semester and I'm In That Mode. :P If anybody is interested in the real nitty-gritty of snake biology, I'd highly recommend getting a copy of How Snakes Work: Structure, Function, and Behavior of the World's Snakes by Harvey B. Lillywhite. It's a dense, grad school-level read, but it sounds like some of you might be up for that!

[End lecture. Class dismissed]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WrongPython

First of all, happy birthday Kevin! That's a very handsome bredli right there.

Now y'all better strap in, because all this talk about snake growth means that you just wandered into my academic field! So pardon me while I put my academic nerd hat on, grab my lecture materials, and deliver my knowledge of snake growth and thoughts on why captive males may be smaller than their wild counterparts for all those who are interested. :D

The short: Snakes have indeterminate growth and will continue to grow over time using the energy they have left over after basic metabolic costs and reproduction are addressed. The demands of birth and egg-laying means females typically have more mass compared to a male of the same length, though this difference can go away or even reverse if male competition for mates is a factor. Captive males may be smaller than their wild counterparts because it's more convenient for keepers and we're capable of controlling their growth.

The no-so-short: So, let's start at the very beginning with the basics of snake growth. Almost all snakes have something we academics like to call indeterminate growth. In other words, snakes will continue to grow throughout their lifetime, and don't have a "maximum size" that they will stop growing at. If they're alive and have the energy they need to grow, they'll do so.

What determines the amount energy snakes have to grow? Well, like most animals, snakes gain their energy by eating food. So, the more food a snake manages to eat, the more energy they have to burn. Most animals use their energy for three main purposes: basic metabolic costs, reproduction, and growth. Basic metabolic costs are the costs of keeping your body running -- they're the energetic costs of breathing, pumping your heart, digesting your food, powering your brain, and the like. Animals will use the energy they gain to address basic metabolic costs before anything else. Once basic metabolic costs are taken care of, an animal will then direct their remaining energy towards growth or reproduction. How an animal directs their spare energy between the two depends on their circumstances.

In the case of snakes, physically mature individuals will likely put a considerable portion of their spare energy towards reproduction. This means bringing their reproductive organs back online, producing gametes, and -- in the case of females -- growing eggs and babies. The physics of egg production and pregnancy require a larger snake compared to one that simply produces gametes, which is why female snakes are typically bulkier and more massive compared to males of a similar size. However, this sexual dimorphism can break down when male combat is a factor -- the larger male typically wins the fight -- or even reverse if the pressure of competition is high enough. Any energy that's left over after reproduction can be put towards growth.

Individuals who are incapable of reproducing -- whether it's an immature juvenile or a lone adult that doesn't receive the cues they need to trigger mating behavior -- will put their spare energy towards growth instead. For juveniles, this means eventually reaching physical maturity (so they can reproduce) and becoming less of an easy prey item. For otherwise mature adults, this could mean increasing their reproductive fitness (ie. getting larger to better fight rivals or lay more eggs) or their overall survival fitness (ie. maybe bigger's just better in the habitat where you live). Since they don't have to worry about reproduction and have comparably lower metabolic costs, a juvenile's growth rate will normally be much greater than an adult's. However, decades of incremental growth and the occasional glut of food (ie. a massive intake of energy) means adult snakes are still capable of growing quite a bit! If I had to guess, those 12-13' coastals are very old snakes and very successful hunters.

So with all of that being addressed, why are captive male snakes typically smaller than their wild counterparts? Well:



Gio pretty much hit the nail on the head. Captive males' smaller size may be a factor of our ability to control snakes' food intake and, by extension, the amount of spare energy they have to grow. Larger females are necessary to produce more young, but smaller males can still get their job done while being easier and more economical to keep. It's almost a no-brainer for a breeders. I'll also add that small breeder males are putting more energy into reproduction compared to a "pet" male of the same age, and thus have less spare energy left for growth.

Gio's also made good observations on why smaller males may be better breeders than smaller males in captivity. Size does not equal reproductive fitness. A young, rapidly grown male may not yet be sexually mature despite being "the right size." Furthermore, it's likely that power-feeding levels of rapid growth disrupt a snake's proper bodily functions and stunt their proper development, which leads to poor breeding performance. Snakes will mature when they're ready. A slow-grown male will be smaller than a rapidly grown male at your average age of sexual maturity, but they'll probably have had more balanced growth overall, which makes them better breeders.

I'm going to stop myself for now. Apologies if this came across as too lecture-y for people -- I wound up teaching this semester and I'm In That Mode. :P If anybody is interested in the real nitty-gritty of snake biology, I'd highly recommend getting a copy of How Snakes Work: Structure, Function, and Behavior of the World's Snakes by Harvey B. Lillywhite. It's a dense, grad school-level read, but it sounds like some of you might be up for that!

[End lecture. Class dismissed]

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Excellent points and a much better and more in-depth job of saying what I was trying to say and then some.

Back to the subject of the Centralians for a bit.

Again, after speaking with Nick I was told, we don't see a lot of wild photos/footage of them because you have to really "beat the bush" to find them.

They are not frequently found in areas that are easily accessible like coastal carpets are.

I know there are some really large Bredli out there but finding them is difficult They ARE a combative species and Nick stated wild males can and do attain good size ultimately larger than females in some cases.

WrongPython,

Way back when on a Red Tail boa board, Gus Rentfro stated this. "In the wild, the biggest boas are the oldest boas". He spoke about captive feeding and how many boas died probably before reaching their healthy, full size potential.

The sexual size dimorphism studies are fascinating to me.

Nature's "survival of the fittest" statement makes a lot of sense and ultimately proves out that the most successful animals are the ones that can meet their basic needs.

Feeding and growth are major factors when it comes to male/male combat and female reproduction. I don't think people find fat, big snakes in the wild. I do think they find healthy, very large snakes in the wild.

IMO the snakes that are the most successful, male or female are the ones that get the most food, attain the largest sizes and are the physically strongest.

Sensational post WrongPython!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gio

I'm not sure with carpets, but the videos I see of the snake catchers in Australia sure make me think they get pretty large in the wild.

Carpets, specifically coastal carpets have adapted very well to human encroachment. It seems the areas around homes provide a host of prey opportunities be it wild animals, or domestic dogs and cats.

They certainly seem large when the snake catchers show up.

The most beautiful boa I've seen is wrapped around somebody's leg in Vin Russo's book.

Huge and solid as rock. It was a Suri I believe.

I don't expect my female coastal to get much larger, yet she surprised me this last year with a growth spurt at 6 years old and now she's 7.

She's not a predictable eater, I typically try once a month these days but she goes longer too.

---

I'm reasonably confident I know the photo you are talking about, it was a friend of Gus R in the photo with his hands on the neck of a huge female boa.

You guys covered male combat and some other stuff so I'm going back to an earlier comment I made about 'big snakes eat big meals'. Gus R. talked about raising many boas to 8 feet on rats, but the ones that he raised to greater lengths required larger prey. It didn't have anything to do with nutrition, maybe something to do with calories but I don't think it was the amount of calories over the period of a year but the amount of calories per meal that did 'something'. A mature female BCO here grew more (length) on just 3 meals of 4+ pound rabbits in a year than the previous two years on rats. I've see similar results with other boa. IMO large meals activate something in their genes triggering growth.

I know my buddy Gio has this thread in Carpets but I know boas so I have to relate those observations and if he doesn't like it on his thread, too bad! Friend :P.

You always hear Suriname Guyana boa keepers talk about feeding mice the first year, not feeding too often, not feeding too large, etc...and its all true but how is it the largest bc on the planet are such slow starters? And how is it that even a 9-10 foot captive born Suriname/Guyana boa is very rare (let alone something really big)? Something happens to boas as they age and granted genetics are a factor as an individual boa, differences in other subs of boas (when the BCO were young in my care they could eat meals with ease that I wouldn't feed to a much larger non adult Suriname boa) and even location within a sub is a factor (I don't believe a Pokigron Suriname boa will reach the size of some of the Suriname boas brought into the country 35-40 years ago). As a boa matures they are more capable of eating large meals. As keepers most say meal size should be equal to their body width -a good practice for sure but mature boas thrive when going beyond this size guideline and can swallow larger prey with an ease they didn't have when they were younger. A mature 7 foot Pokigron Suriname eats rabbits over 2 pounds with ease but I never would have fed a meal as large (relative to size) when it was a younger snake.

I think males in some boa subs (areas of location) have the potential to reach large sizes but they don't. Import houses get in really big females once in a while but I've never heard of males that compare...why is that? I have a theory. As I said above, large meals trigger growth and as they mature they are capable of eating much larger prey as compared to percentage of body mass than when they were younger. That pertains to sex because the female boa is desperate after giving birth, eating anything she can fit in her pie hole that she crosses paths with and she is spending way more time looking for things to cross her path than a male. This combined with luck and years of being successful lead to a large female snake. Mature males in captivity (and I'd bet are similar in the wild) are about conserving resources (they are lazy). They hunt less and require much less food. Even non breeding females are wanting to be fed more than males in captivity.

Breeders may never noticed the ability for prey size increase in mature boas as it doesn't matter to them and I think other keepers who have observed it don't talk about it because they don't want to influence a keeper into doing something that is outside of their 'range'. I hesitate to post some of this food size 'stuff' because I don't want someone with a limited understanding to kill their boa. It is an absolute fact that increased calorie intake in a young boa will not give you a large, old boa and overfeeding an adult boa will only get you a fat adult...like my buddy Gio quoting Gus...the largest boas are the oldest.

I like the way this thread turned out and BOAS are certainly welcome here!

Having welcomed boas, I'll switch back to carpets for a moment.

There are a lot of photos and Youtube videos of carpets being discovered in the wild with enormous prey bulges in them. I recall one carpet that ate a domestic dog it had to be saved because the dog was still attached to a chain which the carpet had ingested.

The amount of variables in this discussion are endless. Boas are different than pythons. Pythons seem more ready to go at younger ages when it comes to larger prey items and feeding frequency. Although I've seen sad/disgusting examples of reticulated pythons being push far beyond their limits. Colubrids are another story and I have very little knowledge pertaining to venomous species.

I believe my male boa is close to 7 feet long. He's likely under and certainly not over.

This snake started out being fed more than probably recommended but certainly not obnoxiously stuffed. The Vin Russo book helped me get on track, but my friend BNS (Met on Redtailboa.net) was nice enough to have me call him by phone and further get my feeding program refined.

As it turns out we live within 25 minutes of one another and have met in person, he even took me herping a few years back.

My boa has had a wide variety of prey. Never mice as I got him when he was just shy of a year. He was on medium rats and I kept that going early on.

Obviously he made it to large rats, and the occasionally rabbit plus large quail.

We practice seasonal change and he won't eat from October until late March.

I think the last meal of the season will be a 2 pound rabbit.

I have to run, but I popped in and I'm enjoying the discussion.

Great info all. Thanks for sharing!

Wrong Python, dropping knowledge bombs!!! Awesome post!!!!

Very nice carpet there Gio! Happy birthday, Kevin! Looks like his any bdays are very close together. XD I was definitely thinking of a carpet before I got River, and if they get a tad bit bigger than boas, then maybe I'll have to consider carpets instead of retics. lmao I like the bigger snakes, but I don't think I could have too many Rivers. I didn't think they got anywhere near as big as has been discussed here, which is part of the reason I didn't get any yet. I thought they stayed about the same size or smaller than boa constrictors with some subspecies or localities sometimes getting up to 8'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bns

I'm reasonably confident I know the photo you are talking about, it was a friend of Gus R in the photo with his hands on the neck of a huge female boa.

You guys covered male combat and some other stuff so I'm going back to an earlier comment I made about 'big snakes eat big meals'. Gus R. talked about raising many boas to 8 feet on rats, but the ones that he raised to greater lengths required larger prey. It didn't have anything to do with nutrition, maybe something to do with calories but I don't think it was the amount of calories over the period of a year but the amount of calories per meal that did 'something'. A mature female BCO here grew more (length) on just 3 meals of 4+ pound rabbits in a year than the previous two years on rats. I've see similar results with other boa. IMO large meals activate something in their genes triggering growth.

I know my buddy Gio has this thread in Carpets but I know boas so I have to relate those observations and if he doesn't like it on his thread, too bad! Friend :P.

You always hear Suriname Guyana boa keepers talk about feeding mice the first year, not feeding too often, not feeding too large, etc...and its all true but how is it the largest bc on the planet are such slow starters? And how is it that even a 9-10 foot captive born Suriname/Guyana boa is very rare (let alone something really big)? Something happens to boas as they age and granted genetics are a factor as an individual boa, differences in other subs of boas (when the BCO were young in my care they could eat meals with ease that I wouldn't feed to a much larger non adult Suriname boa) and even location within a sub is a factor (I don't believe a Pokigron Suriname boa will reach the size of some of the Suriname boas brought into the country 35-40 years ago). As a boa matures they are more capable of eating large meals. As keepers most say meal size should be equal to their body width -a good practice for sure but mature boas thrive when going beyond this size guideline and can swallow larger prey with an ease they didn't have when they were younger. A mature 7 foot Pokigron Suriname eats rabbits over 2 pounds with ease but I never would have fed a meal as large (relative to size) when it was a younger snake.

I think males in some boa subs (areas of location) have the potential to reach large sizes but they don't. Import houses get in really big females once in a while but I've never heard of males that compare...why is that? I have a theory. As I said above, large meals trigger growth and as they mature they are capable of eating much larger prey as compared to percentage of body mass than when they were younger. That pertains to sex because the female boa is desperate after giving birth, eating anything she can fit in her pie hole that she crosses paths with and she is spending way more time looking for things to cross her path than a male. This combined with luck and years of being successful lead to a large female snake. Mature males in captivity (and I'd bet are similar in the wild) are about conserving resources (they are lazy). They hunt less and require much less food. Even non breeding females are wanting to be fed more than males in captivity.

Breeders may never noticed the ability for prey size increase in mature boas as it doesn't matter to them and I think other keepers who have observed it don't talk about it because they don't want to influence a keeper into doing something that is outside of their 'range'. I hesitate to post some of this food size 'stuff' because I don't want someone with a limited understanding to kill their boa. It is an absolute fact that increased calorie intake in a young boa will not give you a large, old boa and overfeeding an adult boa will only get you a fat adult...like my buddy Gio quoting Gus...the largest boas are the oldest.

---

Idk about you, but I feel it's pretty dang obvious a 4 lb rabbit is going to hit the growth spurts harder than a rat that might max out at 3 lbs if you're lucky. Feeding a boa 4 lb rabbit is quite like feeding it 4 jumbo rats a sitting instead of just one large. Of course it's going to have more growth, it's more food! Ime, if you keep the size of rabbits closer to the size of a rat you'd normally feed it...the growth is about the same, although they'll keep more body mass than with rats alone on a conservative schedule. My boas eating large rats start out on 1/2 lb rabbits, very roughly the same size as a large rat. I don't currently have a boa I'd consider feeding a 1 lb rabbit, let alone a 4 lb rabbit. My biggest is only 7', though, so she gets 1/2-3/4 lb rabbits, if she was closer to 8' maybe she'd get those 1 lb rabbits. Obviously, they can take larger, but I learned the hard way with Cloud that as little as 1-2 overly-large rabbits can put on a LOT of excess weight and not necessarily a ton of length growth. You want growth, but you don't want to make them fat, either.

Now it is interesting that more snakes aren't larger of any given species, as they do grow even on "small" amounts of food, and given time they grow no matter how far behind they're put with periods of low food intake. My 2010 male has grown half a foot in the 4 years he's been with me: and that's despite a roughly half year period of lowered food intake due to the overheating incident, and only getting a small rat every 3 weeks. I was not feeding him any more often than his typical 2-3 weeks (3 weeks more often than not nowadays) even when he was getting half-sized rats. Could it just be that there isn't a large population of mature enough individuals to show more of the massive side? Or maybe even genetics, like you say, if most of those are from populations or bloodlines with less size potential. But if food intake affects size I'm definitely interested to see how big my conservatively-fed snakes are in another 5 years, and to see how my more mature snakes continue to grow. Cloud only grows a couple inches every few years atm, and I didn't measure Dominika when I first got her so it'll be a few more years probably before I'll notice any (IF any) growth from her. She has put on at least a pound of weight since the day I got her and that's despite slimming down her girth, so I expect she did grow a few inches since I got her, I just wasn't keeping track.

Carpets get plenty long.

https://i.imgur.com/zxK5W1O.jpg


And as far as large prey goes, I think there is an adaptation that occurs when the only prey source available is large prey.

A similar and opposite situation that developed with true SD retics. SD retics are smaller because they rely on migratory prey and seasonal changes.

They simply don't have food sources that are frequent enough and large enough to sustain great size.

The island boa species rely on migratory birds and not large mammals as a food source.

Mainland boas most certainly have a wide variety of prey and some of it is quite large.

There is a video of a boa ingesting a large Howler Monkey. (easy to find the video) without much fuss.

BNS also alerted me to some studies that involved rat snakes that became extremely large because of the size of the prey they had available to them.

The size of the prey was the determining factor.

What I gathered was that more frequent, smaller meals did not create the same growth as less frequent larger meals.

I feel the adaptation to eating larger and larger prey creates a different type of growth than staying on small prey more frequently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gio

Carpets get plenty long.

https://i.imgur.com/zxK5W1O.jpg


And as far as large prey goes, I think there is an adaptation that occurs when the only prey source available is large prey.

A similar and opposite situation that developed with true SD retics. SD retics are smaller because they rely on migratory prey and seasonal changes.

They simply don't have food sources that are frequent enough and large enough to sustain great size.

The island boa species rely on migratory birds and not large mammals as a food source.

Mainland boas most certainly have a wide variety of prey and some of it is quite large.

There is a video of a boa ingesting a large Howler Monkey. (easy to find the video) without much fuss.

BNS also alerted me to some studies that involved rat snakes that became extremely large because of the size of the prey they had available to them.

The size of the prey was the determining factor.

What I gathered was that more frequent, smaller meals did not create the same growth as less frequent larger meals.

I feel the adaptation to eating larger and larger prey creates a different type of growth than staying on small prey more frequently.

---

Dang that is a decent sized carpet! I truly thought they were the outliers. Maybe in 2 years you all will see me with some carpets. [emoji1787]

That’s definitely interesting. I wonder if with time my boas fed conservatively would still attain those lengths, or if they’ll fall short however long a time they’re growing.

Cloud had a lot of extremely large prey as a juvenile (jumbos when he should have still been on smalls for about 6-7 meals), but it was still all I could do to get him to 6’ by 3 years old. At 9 years old he’s only made it to 6’8”, though he grows an inch or two reliably every year. Although I’m sure it’s a useful adaptation I am not willing to push my snakes’ sizes with bigger prey. With how frequently they eat in captivity I feel that would result in a fat snake before a big one, when my snakes are clearly growing steadily even on the smaller prey items. What I don’t know is if they’ll still attain 8’-9’+ sizes, or remain at more reasonable lengths. [emoji848] But that’s not important to me if it means artificially increasing their size.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great thread going here (sorry Kevin - we seemed to have forgotten this is your thread, at least a little).

I'll weigh in briefly and as best as I can on my thoughts of Boas and Carpets growing and food intake.

I've always heard the with boas, less is more. Smaller meals and less often than you might feed other species.

For example, Behira has been on medium rats for a while now - since about 1,100G or so and she was eating them every 3 weeks (until her shed thing and now it's more frequently - however, and more on this in a minute, it's a much smaller meal for her now). She continues to grow at a reasonable pace, fast, but not noticeable. She's 4 and I do not expect her to reach adult size for another 2-3 years, depending on if I offer large rats at any point. I will never offer jumbos or XL's, etc. to her as boas do not tolerate fatty prey as well as other species can.

Basically, Boas are incredibly efficient and grow well on smaller prey items relative to other species (I do not know of other species that would be steadily growing on a meal of about 5% body weight every 2-3 weeks). This is also why if people feed a large boa a rabbit, it's every 4-6 weeks, or less often.

Now, I've spoken to Jeff Ronne (the Boaphile) about Behira quite a bit. He still thinks feeding her medium rats (100-125G or so) every 10 days to 2 weeks is better than a large rat (180-200G) or so every 3 weeks. Part of that is because her shedding issues have finally improved (she was shedding very frequently for some unknown reason, with the best guess being a hormonal change around puberty) and frequently feeding smaller meals = growth with less stress on her system, has seemed to help extend the duration of her sheds from every 16-18 days to about a month now. Of course, this could all be coincidence and not causation and she's just working out her own "whatever."

However, he did say that I don't need to feed her large rats now unless I really want her growing. I didn't ask specifically, but it seems to go to what was said earlier by several here about the larger prey = more growth faster. Like their growth kicks into another gear.

He also knows, that I never want to feed her rabbits (supply is tough) and won't go over large rats so he might be pacing me. I also told him that Katie is worried about Behira's adult size a little and this would give her more time to adjust to Behira's growth while not hurting Behira at all. So part of it may be not wanting me to have too large a boa too quickly.

He did think that feeding mediums and then larges and never going bigger would still equal a 7-8FT Behira, eventually, but that it would take a long time and probably be better for her in the long run.

He told me a story once about a boa his daughter wanted to keep, but didn't want it huge. As a test, She/Jeff never fed it more than small rats. I think he said she maxed out about 6FT or so eventually, but lived 20+ years.

This goes to the point of how we feed can impact both time it takes for a boa to reach size and overall size.

I eventually expect Behira to be a big girl, but a healthy and muscular big girl. I've seen and held 7+ FT female BI's and they are in the 15-18LB range, not 30+ pounds like many people seem to want them while feeding rabbits, etc. Not to say that a BI cannot be 30lbs or other types of boas for that matter. I could see an adult suriname around there, or a BCO for sure, and a large example of a BI, okay. But in general, a 7FT BI at 30 pounds is (potentially) overweight.

Okay, on to carpets and then I will make sense of all this.

I've read and experienced carpet pythons doing well with large meals. Even for my growing boas, I keep the meal smaller than their girth, for the most part - it's close either way in the beginning when going up food size. I generally won't feed more than 10% of body weight in a meal to a boa either.

CP's can handle large meals exceptionally well and they seem to prefer it. Yafe seems to enjoy a challenge and hits a growth spurt when I go up a size on prey. He's eating 60-70G small rats with ease (He's 650+ grams now but was closer to 500g when I started him on that size ) and growing swiftly. He could probably take smaller mediums now, but I won't go there until his growth slows.

I've heard/read that carpet pythons can easily take 15%+ of their body weight. I definitely see a lump in Yafe when he eats a small rat now, but it's gone pretty quick.

Finally, the issue of captivity vs. wild. In the wild, I doubt there are too many fat snakes. In captivity, we have too many fat snakes. Unhealthy snakes.

Sometimes I think people think the size of their snake somehow helps the size of other things - sadly it's mostly helping fragile ego.

Our responsibility as keepers is to do what's best for our animals. Not what we think is cool for us.

Anyway, in summary.

1. Boas should be slow grown. Smaller meals and decent duration between meals, especially as they age.

It's for their own good and you will probably have a healthy snake for a long time. If given reasonable (not big) meals, a boa can still reach a large size, but it takes longer and probably more, smaller, food items. Same for maintaining. An adult boa on large rats might eat every 3-4 weeks to stay healthy vs. 6-7 weeks for one on larger rabbits.


2. Carpet Pythons like big meals and can handle them. Lump = no issue for them. 15% of body weight is fine for them. Keep in mind that safety is not a concern when feeding F/T but might be with large meals that are live. This goes in general, but specifically for feeding larger rats etc. that can do damage.


3. Fat snakes in the wild, not so much. Many in captivity. Remember, no one cares how fast or big you can grow your snake especially if you are hurting the snake. It has no positive reflection on you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

...Idk about you, but I feel it's pretty dang obvious a 4 lb rabbit is going to hit the growth spurts harder than a rat that might max out at 3 lbs if you're lucky.Feeding a boa 4 lb rabbit is quite like feeding it 4 jumbo rats a sitting instead of just one large. Of course it's going to have more growth, it's more food! Ime, if you keep the size of rabbits closer to the size of a rat you'd normally feed it...the growth is about the same, although they'll keep more body mass than with rats alone on a conservative schedule. My boas eating large rats start out on 1/2 lb rabbits, very roughly the same size as a large rat. I don't currently have a boa I'd consider feeding a 1 lb rabbit, let alone a 4 lb rabbit. My biggest is only 7', though, so she gets 1/2-3/4 lb rabbits, if she was closer to 8' maybe she'd get those 1 lb rabbits. Obviously, they can take larger, but I learned the hard way with Cloud that as little as 1-2 overly-large rabbits can put on a LOT of excess weight and not necessarily a ton of length growth. You want growth, but you don't want to make them fat, either.

---

I'm not sure if you understand (exactly) what I'm relaying or not because it is not obvious...One would think that X calories equals X growth and while that is the case with immature boa it is not the case with adult boa and even less the case with mature boa. I'm talking about the same amount of food. -Fed the same amount of calories...XX number of lean rats spread out over a year equal to 12lbs of rabbit...or feeding three 4lb rabbit over the same amount of time does not have the same growth affect on an adult boa. Its even less intuitive but when one feeds conservatively and provides long winters without food (3-5 months) the large meal growth affect is even more pronounced in mature adults.

I don't know what 'Cloud' is but if you are feeding on a schedule year round and gave it a couple extra meals or missed the metabolism shift as it passed sexual maturity, I could see how that would lead to being fat. While a year round feeding schedule is less than ideal it can be done but any year round feeding schedule needs to be closely watched to make adjustments. A mature 7 footer (BCO/BCC/BCI) here will eat 2lb rabbits with ease. Mature being the key word. Again, I don't know what Cloud is and I'm not typing any of this to challenge anyone...just providing observations for keepers with an interest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

Now it is interesting that more snakes aren't larger of any given species, as they do grow even on "small" amounts of food, and given time they grow no matter how far behind they're put with periods of low food intake. My 2010 male has grown half a foot in the 4 years he's been with me: and that's despite a roughly half year period of lowered food intake due to the overheating incident, and only getting a small rat every 3 weeks. I was not feeding him any more often than his typical 2-3 weeks (3 weeks more often than not nowadays) even when he was getting half-sized rats. Could it just be that there isn't a large population of mature enough individuals to show more of the massive side? Or maybe even genetics, like you say, if most of those are from populations or bloodlines with less size potential.

---

Genetics/location/seasons (periods without food or greatly reduced food)/sex/and prey size are all factors affecting size of a boa.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

But if food intake affects size I'm definitely interested to see how big my conservatively-fed snakes are in another 5 years, and to see how my more mature snakes continue to grow. Cloud only grows a couple inches every few years atm, and I didn't measure Dominika when I first got her so it'll be a few more years probably before I'll notice any (IF any) growth from her. She has put on at least a pound of weight since the day I got her and that's despite slimming down her girth, so I expect she did grow a few inches since I got her, I just wasn't keeping track.

---

A conservatively fed boa means different things to different folks. If you are feeding your boas smallish meals year round (some would call this conservatively) as adults they will continue to grow slowly as all reptiles do but a boa kept in this manner (except the rare gene) will not be as large (read long) of a boa kept differently on a conservative schedule. -A boa fed small meals year round is much less likely to attain the same length of a boa provided seasons with an ever increasing (relative) prey size even if the same calories are fed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gio

Carpets get plenty long.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/zxK5W1O.jpg


And as far as large prey goes, I think there is an adaptation that occurs when the only prey source available is large prey.

A similar and opposite situation that developed with true SD retics. SD retics are smaller because they rely on migratory prey and seasonal changes.

They simply don't have food sources that are frequent enough and large enough to sustain great size.

The island boa species rely on migratory birds and not large mammals as a food source.

Mainland boas most certainly have a wide variety of prey and some of it is quite large.

There is a video of a boa ingesting a large Howler Monkey. (easy to find the video) without much fuss.

BNS also alerted me to some studies that involved rat snakes that became extremely large because of the size of the prey they had available to them.

The size of the prey was the determining factor.

What I gathered was that more frequent, smaller meals did not create the same growth as less frequent larger meals.

I feel the adaptation to eating larger and larger prey creates a different type of growth than staying on small prey more frequently.

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9QtzELnqaw

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bns

I'm not sure if you understand (exactly) what I'm relaying or not because it is not obvious...One would think that X calories equals X growth and while that is the case with immature boa it is not the case with adult boa and even less the case with mature boa. I'm talking about the same amount of food. -Fed the same amount of calories...XX number of lean rats spread out over a year equal to 12lbs of rabbit...or feeding three 4lb rabbit over the same amount of time does not have the same growth affect on an adult boa. Its even less intuitive but when one feeds conservatively and provides long winters without food (3-5 months) the large meal growth affect is even more pronounced in mature adults.

I don't know what 'Cloud' is but if you are feeding on a schedule year round and gave it a couple extra meals or missed the metabolism shift as it passed sexual maturity, I could see how that would lead to being fat. While a year round feeding schedule is less than ideal it can be done but any year round feeding schedule needs to be closely watched to make adjustments. A mature 7 footer (BCO/BCC/BCI) here will eat 2lb rabbits with ease. Mature being the key word. Again, I don't know what Cloud is and I'm not typing any of this to challenge anyone...just providing observations for keepers with an interest.



Genetics/location/seasons (periods without food or greatly reduced food)/sex/and prey size are all factors affecting size of a boa.


A conservatively fed boa means different things to different folks. If you are feeding your boas smallish meals year round (some would call this conservatively) as adults they will continue to grow slowly as all reptiles do but a boa kept in this manner (except the rare gene) will not be as large (read long) of a boa kept differently on a conservative schedule. -A boa fed small meals year round is much less likely to attain the same length of a boa provided seasons with an ever increasing (relative) prey size even if the same calories are fed.

---

I would not inherently guess feeding a snake the same amount of food it'd eat in 3 months for one feeding to equate to a certain amount of growth. Surely, if you were to feed a snake a 4 lb rabbit every 3 months (assuming your snake would eat that much in that short a time frame), the snake would use just what it needed at the time and store the rest as fat? Fat, especially in snakes, takes a LOT of time to burn and convert to energy, so by the time it gets its next 4 lb meal it has yet to use any of that stored fat...I *personally* would assume a snake to utilize the calories from a 4 lb rabbit every 3 months differently than it would utilize 4 lbs of rabbit spread over 3 meals in a 3 month span. But that's what I would have assumed.

I guess you can't see my signature if you're using mobile. :/ Cloud is my 2011 BI. Back before I joined this forum, he was fed every week, year round, and even as much as 5 days the first year. I would see 1"-3" of growth every single week. But that growth only went on for so long before the frequent (and sometimes large) meals stopped resulting in so much rapid growth. Even before I started implementing his current seasonal, conservative schedule, his growth hit a rapid plateau. And yes, he was definitely fat during that time until this forum set me straight and I drastically changed his feeding. I was feeding him at this heightened pace for about the first 2.5 years of his life, so technically between his abnormally large size for his age at the time, and being past the minimum 18 month maturity for a male, I was pushing food into him past maturity. So, you do bring up a good point, and I wonder how that growth would have been impacted had I kept on with the large meals and fed seasonally. Would he still have hit a plateau? My intuition would say yes, but that may not necessarily reflect reality - regardless I am very hesitant to attempt it with any of my snakes, pythons, boas, or otherwise. Nowadays, he's 6'8" and he eats maybe 9 meals a year. Meaning, if he got a 1/2 lb rabbit every single meal that's only 4.5 lbs for the entire year. But realistically, he gets less than that, as most of his meals are rats below 300 grams to avoid fatty prey items. I only use the rabbits to help pad him over his winter fast and get him started after I end it.

My 7' female could probably take a 2+ lb rabbit with little fuss, but I prefer not to give her even a 1 lb rabbit. She also gets 1/2 lb rabbits, with the occasional large 3/4 lb. I have given her one or two 1-1.5 lb rabbits just to use them up - I forgot to bring my scale when I picked up the rabbits and they were 3x the size I would have liked. The 1-1.5 lb rabbits left quite noticeable, large bulges in her, and I prefer to give her meals that you can't see a bulge so I quickly stopped that. Now I'm feeding a couple of those to my ~11.5' retic, as she seems to do best on a 2-3 lb meal. I would never consider giving my 7' boa a 2 lb rabbit, even if she were to only eat those 3 times a year - as said above, I think a snake utilizes moderately-sized meals on a more frequent schedule better than they would a large meal a couple times a year. My bp definitely hit heavier weights eating a small rat every 2-3 weeks vs a medium rat every 2 months - which he'd do of his own accord despite me offering every other week (or less if he was going on a 4-6 month fast like he liked to do for about 3-4 years). (Edit to add: yes, she is fed seasonally as well: though I am feeding her year round this year as I attempted to breed her, and I'll want her eating after she gives birth - if she does.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dakski

...

Anyway, in summary.

1. Boas should be slow grown. Smaller meals and decent duration between meals, especially as they age.

...

---

I know folks say this with good intentions so I mean no disrespect...but I don't like that phrase. What does it mean? Slow as compared to what?

That phrase is used today because keepers many years ago noticed that voracious baby boa could pound down the chow and get big quick. In some subs it could even lead to litters sooner. Many packed the food in young boas because they wanted a rapid return on investment by selling some trait. In the short term (8years or so) it seemed to work but it was eventually learned that it negatively affected life span and over the course of the reproductive years a boa that was "slow grown" would 'outperform' its fat counterpart. Live longer, higher fecundity...win win.

'Slow grown' as compared to the overfeeding way that didn't work well long term.

Boas should be fed as individuals. The rate changes as they age. The temperatures/seasons offered/daylight times offered/sex/use of reproduction/sub...all these things have influence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

I would not inherently guess feeding a snake the same amount of food it'd eat in 3 months for one feeding to equate to a certain amount of growth. Surely, if you were to feed a snake a 4 lb rabbit every 3 months (assuming your snake would eat that much in that short a time frame), the snake would use just what it needed at the time and store the rest as fat? Fat, especially in snakes, takes a LOT of time to burn and convert to energy, so by the time it gets its next 4 lb meal it has yet to use any of that stored fat...I *personally* would assume a snake to utilize the calories from a 4 lb rabbit every 3 months differently than it would utilize 4 lbs of rabbit spread over 3 meals in a 3 month span. But that's what I would have assumed.

---

Excess is stored as fat. The difference in how that store is used is what I'm talking about. Large infrequent meals with seasonal fasting triggers stores to be used as growth vs many small meals that are more likely to be stored as fat and not used towards growth. (-This depends on age, seasonality etc -covered that earlier...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

I guess you can't see my signature if you're using mobile. :/ Cloud is my 2011 BI. Back before I joined this forum, he was fed every week, year round, and even as much as 5 days the first year. I would see 1"-3" of growth every single week. But that growth only went on for so long before the frequent (and sometimes large) meals stopped resulting in so much rapid growth. Even before I started implementing his current seasonal, conservative schedule, his growth hit a rapid plateau. And yes, he was definitely fat during that time until this forum set me straight and I drastically changed his feeding. I was feeding him at this heightened pace for about the first 2.5 years of his life, so technically between his abnormally large size for his age at the time, and being past the minimum 18 month maturity for a male, I was pushing food into him past maturity. So, you do bring up a good point, and I wonder how that growth would have been impacted had I kept on with the large meals and fed seasonally. Would he still have hit a plateau?

---

Yes, he would have hit a plateau but it would have occurred years later.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

My intuition would say yes, but that may not necessarily reflect reality - regardless I am very hesitant to attempt it with any of my snakes, pythons, boas, or otherwise. Nowadays, he's 6'8" and he eats maybe 9 meals a year. Meaning, if he got a 1/2 lb rabbit every single meal that's only 4.5 lbs for the entire year. But realistically, he gets less than that, as most of his meals are rats below 300 grams to avoid fatty prey items. I only use the rabbits to help pad him over his winter fast and get him started after I end it.

---

Sounds about right to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

(Edit to add: yes, she is fed seasonally as well: though I am feeding her year round this year as I attempted to breed her, and I'll want her eating after she gives birth - if she does.)

---

Why the change?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bns

Excess is stored as fat. The difference in how that store is used is what I'm talking about. Large infrequent meals with seasonal fasting triggers stores to be used as growth vs many small meals that are more likely to be stored as fat and not used towards growth. (-This depends on age, seasonality etc -covered that earlier...)



Yes, he would have hit a plateau but it would have occurred years later.


Sounds about right to me.

Why the change?

---

If a snake uses a larger percentage of smaller meal once a month, would they not have less excess to store vs a large meal every 3 months? And then, if they're fed seasonally, have even less excess either way? I suppose maybe feeding mainly smaller meals throughout the year, with one or two big meals leading up to a fast would also be a valid approach, at least for some individuals.

And yes, I definitely notice a difference between my conservatively-fed boas and Cloud when I first got them. Two 2015's and a 2016, none of which have reached a plateau in growth yet, though none have reached 6' yet. In fact, this year they've been hitting record growth rates.

I changed Dominika's feeding, because everyone seemed to agree they should get smaller more frequent meals during courtship and while gravid. And since her gravid period is going to line up with her usual fasting period...she'll be eating this winter. By the time she were to give birth and had enough meals in her to get her back up to shape, we'll be back into spring. She's not due until end of Nov or early Dec. BUT...if she proves not to have become gravid by end of December I'll give her a few normal sized meals and then fast her the remaining couple months of winter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

If a snake uses a larger percentage of smaller meal once a month, would they not have less excess to store vs a large meal every 3 months? And then, if they're fed seasonally, have even less excess either way? I suppose maybe feeding mainly smaller meals throughout the year, with one or two big meals leading up to a fast would also be a valid approach, at least for some individuals.

---

I'm telling you what I observe...with a similar amount of calories, a boa fed larger meals with seasonality (etc.) uses those calories differently...it will get longer than it's small meal counterpart.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

And yes, I definitely notice a difference between my conservatively-fed boas and Cloud when I first got them. Two 2015's and a 2016, none of which have reached a plateau in growth yet, though none have reached 6' yet. In fact, this year they've been hitting record growth rates.

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This sounds like you are doing great...

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Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

I changed Dominika's feeding, because everyone seemed to agree they should get smaller more frequent meals during courtship and while gravid. And since her gravid period is going to line up with her usual fasting period...she'll be eating this winter. By the time she were to give birth and had enough meals in her to get her back up to shape, we'll be back into spring. She's not due until end of Nov or early Dec. BUT...if she proves not to have become gravid by end of December I'll give her a few normal sized meals and then fast her the remaining couple months of winter.

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I don't feed during courtship...Boas breed during the cool season or just after depending on sub, that coincides with the not eating season. -Same as in the wild. (It's not as important with BCI after many generations in captivity though).
Feeding too near parturition can kill babies. -Be careful.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by bns

I'm telling you what I observe...with a similar amount of calories, a boa fed larger meals with seasonality (etc.) uses those calories differently...it will get longer than it's small meal counterpart.


This sounds like you are doing great...



I don't feed during courtship...Boas breed during the cool season or just after depending on sub, that coincides with the not eating season. -Same as in the wild. (It's not as important with BCI after many generations in captivity though).
Feeding too near parturition can kill babies. -Be careful.

Good luck.

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Do you mind if I send you a pm with my next set of questions so this thread can go back to carpets? Some of it is python related just not carpet, and my earlier questions I felt could be applied to the carpets as well as the boas. These are a bit more specific.


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Originally Posted by bns

I know folks say this with good intentions so I mean no disrespect...but I don't like that phrase. What does it mean? Slow as compared to what?

That phrase is used today because keepers many years ago noticed that voracious baby boa could pound down the chow and get big quick. In some subs it could even lead to litters sooner. Many packed the food in young boas because they wanted a rapid return on investment by selling some trait. In the short term (8years or so) it seemed to work but it was eventually learned that it negatively affected life span and over the course of the reproductive years a boa that was "slow grown" would 'outperform' its fat counterpart. Live longer, higher fecundity...win win.

'Slow grown' as compared to the overfeeding way that didn't work well long term.

Boas should be fed as individuals. The rate changes as they age. The temperatures/seasons offered/daylight times offered/sex/use of reproduction/sub...all these things have influence.

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I think you already described my thinking. However, I've learned to keep it simple. More experienced and educated keepers ask the question you asked and the answer is relative to someone who offers often and offers large meals because a) a boa will take it, or b) they want them to grow fast for their own edification.

Of course it varies, and I've demonstrated that with Behira by completely changing her feeding schedule around her shedding schedule change. Not sure if you've followed that but she started very rapid sheds and I adjusted feeding in the hopes of getting her back on track which seems to have worked, although it could be coincidence.

However, and again, many new keepers need things explained with broad strokes. Not because they are dumb but because it's a lot to take in at once. Once you get the basics; temps, humidity, snake is eating properly, etc. then you can get into granularity about individual animals and age, sex, breeding, etc.

Anyway, no disrespect taken, but I wanted to explain my position per your question.

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Originally Posted by dakski

I think you already described my thinking. However, I've learned to keep it simple. More experienced and educated keepers ask the question you asked and the answer is relative to someone who offers often and offers large meals because a) a boa will take it, or b) they want them to grow fast for their own edification.

Of course it varies, and I've demonstrated that with Behira by completely changing her feeding schedule around her shedding schedule change. Not sure if you've followed that but she started very rapid sheds and I adjusted feeding in the hopes of getting her back on track which seems to have worked, although it could be coincidence.

However, and again, many new keepers need things explained with broad strokes. Not because they are dumb but because it's a lot to take in at once. Once you get the basics; temps, humidity, snake is eating properly, etc. then you can get into granularity about individual animals and age, sex, breeding, etc.

Anyway, no disrespect taken, but I wanted to explain my position per your question.

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I'm not sure what question you are talking about...You didn't need to explain anything to me...I was entirely confident that you were on the right page -so to speak. Any question in that post was to prove my hate for that saying nothing more. ;)

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Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

Do you mind if I send you a pm with my next set of questions so this thread can go back to carpets? Some of it is python related just not carpet, and my earlier questions I felt could be applied to the carpets as well as the boas. These are a bit more specific.


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Gio said I could wreck his thread..:D

Your right though...PM it is. (I have some work to do but will probably get back to this site later).

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Originally Posted by bns

Gio said I could wreck his thread..:D

Your right though...PM it is. (I have some work to do but will probably get back to this site later).

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Lol yeah but I still don’t want to muddy things too much now that I’m straying away from more general questions. I’ll send a PM and you can just get back to me later!


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He likes me wrecking his thread so much that he posted up a full on body shot of himself. He makes that snake look good.... :bolt:

Yes!!

I'm all for the direction the thread took. I'm probably the first violator when it comes to changing the main subject from the Bredli to feeding.

Just some info for folks that don't know BNS.

If any of you remember when I wasn't lazy and answered feeding questions regarding boas, my answers and examples came from him. Gus Renfro (Who BNS used to speak with) and Vin Russo.

If you don't know who Gus is, research his name and carefully pay attention to anything you can pick up from his postings on the net if there are any still out there.

Cloud if you remember way back, "Evenstar" (Kali) and I helped you out with your boa and feeding schedule.

Anyhow BNS knows his stuff!

I still ask for his advice when I'm in a jam.