Spider Ball Python ban and breeding

I am aware of the controversy surrounding spider ball pythons and the ethical issue of breeding these snakes when they have a neurological issue such as the spider wobble. I am writing a paper on the issue and I just want to see everyone's opinion on the issue and why they believe in that opinion. I hope my paper sheds some light on this issue in the ball python community. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tickyyy

I am aware of the controversy surrounding spider ball pythons and the ethical issue of breeding these snakes when they have a neurological issue such as the spider wobble. I am writing a paper on the issue and I just want to see everyone's opinion on the issue and why they believe in that opinion. I hope my paper sheds some light on this issue in the ball python community. :)

---

Sooooooo I used to have a stunning Caramel Albino Spider and it had ZERO wobble !!

Interestingly it was THE best feeder I’ve ever had !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zincubus

Sooooooo I used to have a stunning Caramel Albino Spider and it had ZERO wobble !!

Interestingly it was THE best feeder I’ve ever had !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

---

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5551196f9e.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Speaking as a scientist (broadly) and a geneticist (specifically) my opinion is that:

1) All Spiders (and affiliated morphs) have the issue to some degree. There are none that are completely free of it.

2) The root of the controversy is being generated by people with little to no actual scientific background making assertions based off of anthropomorphized generalizations and personal feelings

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by asplundii

2) The root of the controversy is being generated by people with little to no actual scientific background making assertions based off of anthropomorphized generalizations and personal feelings

---

Haven't logged in in awhile, been lurking as a guest here and there, but it's been super busy lately. However, I felt compelled to log in simply to "like" this comment. Cheers to that!

Too many people say their spider/combo doesn't wobble....
Too many people say they shouldn't be bred....

Both are blind to the other.
Very few are open minded.

Having several spider genes in my collection, they are some of the best feeders I have and were the easiest to switch to FT.
BTW there are more morphs that wobble...;)

This may be unpopular opinion judging by responses so far, but I am personally against the breeding of spiders and I think it's right to ban them. Even with spiders that don't exhibit severe symptoms, we are only able to judge the effects of the wobble by behaviour we can observe and since (as far as I am aware) there have never been studies on if spiders have elevated stress levels and other relevant factors, and snakes are not very expressive, we can't know if they are suffering or not, and how much, if they are.

This aside, knowingly producing animals that may not be able to feed or move normally seems unfair to me. Even if it is just one out of many snakes that will experience symptoms that severe, that is still a living creature that was brought into the world to suffer needlessly by choice. And before anyone brings up this argument, yes, I feel the same way about dog and cat breeds that are known to have health-jeopardizing defects like pugs and Scottish folds, and about any other animals that are bred as pets despite known health problems.

With that said, I can also understand why people like spiders and find them desirable. They are beautiful. One of the first BP morphs I ever saw was a banana spider, and I think it is still one of the most beautiful BPs I've ever seen. I won't hold my opinions against anyone who owns spiders, but I would personally never get one or support breeding them.

The bashing spider movement is from people who generally know nothing, never owned a spider, never bred them but heard from someone who heard from someone who watch a video once :rolleyes:. Sure they wobble to a degree however train wrecks are rare, in most cases it will be hardly noticeable at all and if kept properly a Spider will thrive and do exactly the same things any other BP with any other paint job will do.

Ironically Spiders are the focus of the bashing when other mutations who exhibit the same issue are left alone :rolleyes: if people wanted to be fair their would bash those other mutations as well.

Another irony most people that you will find against the spider gene have no issue with some dogs such as bulldogs, chihuahuas to name a few who have health issues and rarely can give birth naturally.

It's simple you like spider own them, you don't like them don't own them, but saying something should be ban is a slippery slope to ban anything and everything all together because one person disagrees with it.

The majority of breeders are ethical and care and will cull anything that will not have quality of life, in the years I used to work with spiders (I no longer do since I focus on Pied now) I have never had to cull a spider I have however had to cull other animals however that would not have thrive or have a quality of life......that comes with breeding.

I have one, and even after months of proper care, she still wobbles. :| I don't know why so many breeders act as if the wobble isn't an issue. When we changed my girl's substrate, it was ridiculous. She was flailing, arching every which way, ect. She's not the only rescue bp in this house, but she's the only spider rescue and the only one to have such a worrying reaction. Despite being rescued from similar conditions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phantomfugue

I have one, and even after months of proper care, she still wobbles. :| I don't know why so many breeders act as if the wobble isn't an issue. When we changed my girl's substrate, it was ridiculous. She was flailing, arching every which way, ect. She's not the only rescue bp in this house, but she's the only spider rescue and the only one to have such a worrying reaction. Despite being rescued from similar conditions.

---

Rescues are in need of rescuing because of the poor condition of the husbandry and animal. Poor husbandry such as too much heat will cause further damage making the symptoms worse. So yeah if the person you got him from or yourself were'nt using a thermostat to control the heat i could see that causing permanent damage. Add 10° f to the average human body temperature and it causes brain damage.

People having issues with spiders comes up so often now I wonder if it's linked with the rise of "pet youtubers" that have very limited knowledge on pythons/morphs but love to voice their opinions. I've heard people say Spiders should be banned because they would not survive in the wild but yet these people own albino BP.Every morph itself is a mutation/defect of Python Regius and spiders are not the only ones that wobble. Anyone who has ever worked with spiders can tell you the wobble does not interfere with the snake's ability to eat/defecate/breed or nor does it shorten their lifespan. I two snakes in collection that wobble and the wobble is only noticeable when they are excited or stressed. For example my black pewter champagne female wobbles like crazy at feeding time while my male spider only wobbles if I change something in his enclosure. I personally find it more questionable breeding for supers that have a high percentage of deformed or kinked clutches than breeding a spider.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mdb730

yet these people own albino BP

---

There are plenty of animals with albinos that live and survive in the wild. Color and neurological issues is not a very solid comparison.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wnateg

There are plenty of animals with albinos that live and survive in the wild. Color and neurological issues is not a very solid comparison.

---

When you rely on camouflage to survive it's highly unlikely you will survive long enough in the wild to reach "adulthood". Point is, spider is a morph just like any albino bred for the pet trade and cared for in captivity. Using the "they can't survive in the wild" argument is no excuse to ban a morph.

The first Spider was found in the wild as an adult proof that it thrived just fine :rolleyes:, Spiders eat, drink, poop, breed like any other BP matter of fact they are generally more inquisitive and many have reported that they were better feeders.

Again the anti spider bandwagon based on little to no experience is ridiculous especially considering that it is not the only morph that wobbles but yet is the only one under attack. Thousands have been produced very few have severe issues but thank to the internet know it all who never owned a spider it has now a bad name......sad really and I don't even own spiders anymore.

You have to judge the quality of life of the animal in your care.

With snakes, the typical judges are: 1.) they eat normally 2.) they shed normally 3.) they defecate normally

The spiders that I've cared for in my years have always been amazing eaters. Maybe they aren't the most graceful, but they NEVER missed a meal - and let's face it folks, BPs as a whole aren't graceful... plenty of normals have whacked the side of a cage or flipped themselves upside down in their excitement of eating. We notice it more in spiders because we've been "trained" to (much like when you're looking to buy a specific vehicle and then start seeing it everywhere).

If the snake's quality of life is such that they can't eat, can't shed, or can't poo normally, then it's time to think about culling or at least to NOT breed and end that line of inheritance. And that can happen with ANY lineage and any trait - it just isn't touted about like the spider gene is.


You can say that the above three stipulations are only basic needs, that we can't really know what the snake feels *cough* anthropomorphism *cough* but then you have to go back and say that folks that keep snakes in tubs aren't providing a high quality of life because they're just providing the basics, but someone with a tank the size of a room isn't providing a high enough quality of life because it's still not the wild where these animals truly belong... so why are you even keeping snakes at all??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MattEvans

Rescues are in need of rescuing because of the poor condition of the husbandry and animal. Poor husbandry such as too much heat will cause further damage making the symptoms worse. So yeah if the person you got him from or yourself were'nt using a thermostat to control the heat i could see that causing permanent damage. Add 10° f to the average human body temperature and it causes brain damage.

---

Too much heat wasn't the problem with her. I'm comparing one rescue to the other rescues my brother has taken in who were in similar conditions. The snakes I'm comparing her to were too cold, dehydrated, on bad substrate, had stuck shed and were underfed. She was too cold, dehydrated, on bad substrate, and was underfed. These are animals we've picked up from their old owners, not from a shelter. I'm comparing her to one younger pied and an older normal. You can argue that the wobble isn't so bad, but you can't say that spiders and other similar genes don't have a wobble.

The way people talk you would think that all Spider ball pythons are constantly wobbling. That is not the case. Many show no signs outside of feeding and then it is usually a reaction to the stress. It seems hardly worth the attention it gets aside from extreme cases where snakes that are coincidentally Spider Morphs have sustained neurological damage from environmental factors.

Here is a handful of my Spiders. Check out the wobble. Oh the horror! :)

https://youtu.be/Nc8EdGwV4S4

I figure I'll throw my two cents in here...

My thoughts are this...I have no problem at all with responsible breeders working with the spider gene, or any of the others that are known to have Neuro issues, kinking, duck billing or whatever...as long as it's done responsibly.

It certainly seems like some people think the spider gene is the devil. It's not, people. Nor is it the only gene known for defects.

All that said, I personally don't have any spiders, and I personally won't choose to add any. I just see so many amazing animals out there that I've got plenty of other options. So although I think spiders generally speaking are gorgeous, I just choose to keep some of the other thousands of options out there.

So in conclusion, if you don't like spiders, don't add any to your collection. Quite simple.
And any talk of an outright ban really grinds my gears. I've gotta drive 30 minutes to NH to get vape supplies now because of an asinine ban. Bans aren't the answer...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

The way people talk you would think that all Spider ball pythons are constantly wobbling. That is not the case. Many show no signs outside of feeding and then it is usually a reaction to the stress. It seems hardly worth the attention it gets aside from extreme cases where snakes that are coincidentally Spider Morphs have sustained neurological damage from environmental factors.

Here is a handful of my Spiders. Check out the wobble. Oh the horror! :)

https://youtu.be/Nc8EdGwV4S4

---

It's not just rescues from bad situations who have it. Even breeders from large collections have the condition.

NERD has spiders who show a wobble. Other big breeders who work with the gene has also shown their snakes with the condition on YouTube. I really doubt every single last one of those breeders were rescues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

You have to judge the quality of life of the animal in your care.

With snakes, the typical judges are: 1.) they eat normally 2.) they shed normally 3.) they defecate normally

....

---

I will add a fourth factor to judge by: 4.) The breed normally.

As far as I know, spiders have no trouble breeding normally.

As the train wrecks are removed from the breeding population, selective breeding is improving the stock.

I have a Queen bee and he has no problem at all.
I have even had him roll off my hand into his viv and end up on his back and he will right himself as fast as my Pastel can.
I think it's a non issue and started because of jealousy over a couple breeders that have become very successful and famous.:colbert:
No names being mentioned. :tongue2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paulh

I will add a fourth factor to judge by: 4.) The breed normally.

As far as I know, spiders have no trouble breeding normally.

As the train wrecks are removed from the breeding population, selective breeding is improving the stock.

---

That's not true. Some spider combos are fatal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phantomfugue

NERD has spiders who show a wobble. Other big breeders who work with the gene has also shown their snakes with the condition on YouTube. I really doubt every single last one of those breeders were rescues.

---

No one is disputing the fact that they all wobble, people are disputing the fact that in the majority of cases it is very MILD even unnoticeable to the person with limited experience that never hear of a spider.

Now people have a tendency to over dramatized with again ZERO hand on experience or a very limited one :rolleyes:

Now a rescue is a rescue I have rescued normals that were corkscrewing worse than any spider I ever owned.

Help! Concerned spider owner.
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...ink_source=app
Here’s another thread that “discussed” the issue. I’m actually kinda getting tired of this debate as honestly it’s pretty stupid. People seem to love jumping on bandwagons nowadays if they think it’s the in thing to do. If spiders had such a debilitating disease then they wouldn’t have become one of the most prolific morphs there is. Also, the original was an import meaning it survived in the wild. Anywho... I’m kinda tired of trying to talk sense into people so if anyone is interested you can go through the thread to see both point of views.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wnateg

That's not true. Some spider combos are fatal.

---

Super forms of many morphs are lethal, not just spiders. Also, I’m fairly certain spider isn’t one of them but I’m not a breeder so I’m unsure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkL1561

Super forms of many morphs are lethal, not just spiders. Also, I’m fairly certain spider isn’t one of them but I’m not a breeder so I’m unsure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Sure, that may be. I don't much of anything about ball pythons or morphs, but from this list it seems spiders may have breeding issues, because there are 3 or so spider combos on this list that are fatal or difficult to survive. That may be normal, but this list is frequently posted, and it explicitly states these as fatal, so it's worth mentioning.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...d8f528b63a.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkL1561

Super forms of many morphs are lethal

---

Not really only a few are lethal (and I mean a few) most co-dom have perfectly healthy supers, super spider, super champagne, pearl however are indeed lethal that's 3 ;)

Some may have issues such but again it's in the minority

http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

Not really only a few are lethal (and I mean a few) most co-dom have perfectly healthy supers, super spider, super champagne, pearl however are indeed lethal that's 3 ;)

Some may have issues such but again it's in the minority

http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

---

Aren’t some super forms for boas lethal? I’ve heard jungle to jungle is a bad idea for example.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkL1561

Aren’t some super forms for boas lethal? I’ve heard jungle to jungle is a bad idea for example.

---

It depends on the genes involved, boas do not have nearly as many dom/co-dom morphs as BPs do, most morphs in boas are recessive.
Super jungles tend to not live very long and have fertility issues. Super motley has the same issue with longevity as well as having development issues with the head shape. Super aztecs have had reported issues with longevity/survivability.
Super hypos are perfectly fine.

I previously posted my opinion in a separate thread about the spider gene. Most still hold true with the exception of myself getting a spider should I want a bp again.

Everything in one way or another has a flaw, a mutation or a defect. Some is more severe than others, many are mostly so faint and barely noticeable that it does not interfere with life. If a snake can thrive, regardless of the gene or morph or whatnot, so be it. As long as you keep a non-domesticated animal as a pet in your home, it is always unnatural. So that whole argument of "it would not survive in the wild" makes no sense because 1. The first captive of the spider morph purchased by Kevin at NERD was wild caught and an adult and 2. Comparing oranges to apples: how we interpret the wobble would negatively affect their life in a tub or glass tank is not the same as how it would affect it in its natural habitat. And many imports found are first trapped for the leather trade, not pets, so many more adult spiders could have been found from the wild but never reported.

Until the real Dr. Dolittle shows up and tells us what the snakes are really thinking, why would one think that it was wallowing in misery if it eats, poops and breeds like all the other morphs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

Another irony most people that you will find against the spider gene have no issue with some dogs such as bulldogs, chihuahuas to name a few who have health issues and rarely can give birth naturally.

---

I will take this further, pretty much every breed has some type of genetic baggage - labs and retrievers and German shepherds are prone to dysplasia, Aussie cattle dogs have ocular degeneration disease, etc. So if you keep/condone any type of pure-bred dog then you are being hypocritical