Help, possible PAM poisoning!

i was watching pretzel slither around his tank and i noticed something odd; along his stomach it almost looked like a lump was traveling through him. then on parts of his belly i saw along his belly lumps poking out periodically, almost as if something was trying to poke through. i tried to research what this could be but i couldn’t find anything. i just find it super bizarre and concerning. my bf says maybe it’s his muscles twitching, but i don’t even know. i’ll try and upload a video

It sounds like it's his muscles contracting as he moves, but if you can upload a video we'll know for sure.

Hard urates? They feel like marbles when you touch them, and can move around within the snake with a gentle squeeze.


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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YU8Snutmyq0

i find it odd bc he’s not moving


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Oh wow that is pretty weird... it's a little twitch at first but then that lump at around 15 seconds seemed unusual :confusd:

Is that a spider BP?


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no he’s a pinstripe


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Run! It's an alien!

Seriously, I've never seen such a thing...at first I thought just a twitch too, but the second one...? :confusd: Weird.

I think I'd see a good herp vet with him if no good explanations turn up here.

Yeah, that looks weird. Reminds me of a pregnant woman's stomach moving, but that shouldn't happen with a snake I don't think

i know right, it’s freaking me out! yes i probably will just because it’s so concerning..


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Listening to your description I wasn't thinking that it was rapid, jerking motions like shown in the video. I was thinking more like a lump was slowly moving through, like a urate or poop being pushed towards the vent. But seeing that video, I'd think it'd have to be something muscular, like muscle spasms? Never seen anything quite like that, looks like a live rat is in there.

i can only think of one thing... i treated him two days ago for mites because he had them, and the treatment label said don’t spray onto face but i did on accident. also after his treatment he sat in his water bowl for a bit and maybe he drank his water after and his body is reacting to being poisoned by it?? this is a stretch but i couldn’t think of it being anything else, unless it is just muscle spasms. i reallt don’t know lol


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It looks like muscle spasms to me. Could it be from itching because of mites?

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Originally Posted by pretzelpretzel

i can only think of one thing... i treated him two days ago for mites because he had them, and the treatment label said don’t spray onto face but i did on accident. also after his treatment he sat in his water bowl for a bit and maybe he drank his water after and his body is reacting to being poisoned by it?? this is a stretch but i couldn’t think of it being anything else, unless it is just muscle spasms. i reallt don’t know lol


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What did you use for mites? I'm thinking this could very well BE the cause of this weird twitching. Whatever is going on, it's NOT normal.

i used provent a mite for the cage. i sprayed the inside of the cage with everything in it except the water, then i let it dry for about 30 minutes and then i put him back in. i treated him with natural chemistry reptile spray, which is meant to be sprayed on them of course, i lightly sprayed him then 20 mins later wiped off the excess with a towel


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I'm not sure what's in Natural Chemistry but the fact you can spray it ON the snake suggests it's pretty harmless, & that the reason for keeping it out of their face
is mostly a matter of rudeness if you get it in their nose or mouth. PAM (Provent-a-Mite) on the other hand, is a potent neuro-toxin if a snake is exposed...they must
never come into contact with it (wet), and I have a hunch that if you only waited 30 minutes, there might have been a small spot here or there that was still wet when
you put him back in. I've never used the stuff as I've not dealt with any snake mites since before this stuff (PAM) was on the market, but my understanding is that
many who treat their cages with it allow them to dry for hours or overnight before introducing the snake back in, to be on the safe side. I think you might want to
consult a vet, to see if there's anything they can do at this point to neutralize his possible exposure & poisoning from PAM. I think this is the likely cause. A neuro-toxin could easily cause the symptoms you're seeing, & I don't want you to panic, but some snakes have been harmed (even killed) by exposure to PAM...it's not to be trifled with.

on the label it says don’t let snakes get exposed to vapors, so i assumed once it aired out and mostly dried he would be fine, but i didn’t know how strong the product was and i should’ve let it air out longer. will def be calling the vet tomorrow


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Gotta remember that even though these chemicals are as safe as they can be for reptiles, they are still meant to KILL other living things (pests), and so they do have dangerous things in them. In my opinion, always play it safe. If it says to air out the enclosure for 24 hours, I'd do it for 48.

Remember, inhaling aerosols is a no go! (flashback to being a high school idiot)

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Originally Posted by pretzelpretzel

on the label it says don’t let snakes get exposed to vapors, so i assumed once it aired out and mostly dried he would be fine, but i didn’t know how strong the product was and i should’ve let it air out longer. will def be calling the vet tomorrow


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If I remember right, most keepers spray PAM only on paper towels (not on the cage), let them dry, & then put them in the cage. I just know it has to be completely
dry. I so hope your snake will be OK. I just can't think of anything other than the PAM that could be the culprit...hope I'm wrong, & that his exposure was minimal.

It's hard to find relevant articles addressing the effects of PAM (active ingredient permethrin) on snakes, since not many care about that...only about the effects
on people & "typical pets" or "wildlife" (birds aren't effected so much but it's highly toxic to fish), & of course, the insects it is used to kill.

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/PermGen.html

excerpt: How does permethrin work?

Permethrin can affect insects if they eat it or touch it. Permethrin affects the nervous system in insects, causing muscle spasms, paralysis and death. Permethrin is more toxic to insects than it is to people and dogs. This is because insects can't break it down as quickly as people and dogs. Cats are more sensitive to permethrin than dogs or people because it takes their bodies a long time to break it down.

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The above is why I think that PAM is the cause of the muscle spasms in your snake. Make sure he's well-hydrated, & right now I'd bathe him to make sure there isn't
any residue on his skin. Luke-warm water, gently soak with supervision & towel off. Let the vet know you're calling about an urgent issue (suspected poisoning) so
they don't make you wait to be seen. Ask if there's anything else you can do in the meantime?

So I guess that since the cage wasn’t aired out enough/ some got in his face, he has permethrine poisoning. Bogertophis posted that it can cause muscle spasms in insects


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pretzelpretzel, you might want to start another thread asking for "HELP -possible PAM poisoning?", as others here (probably the mods) may have more info
to help you until you can see the vet, but from the title of this thread, most aren't realizing the issue to chime in. I know I remember others on forums having
toxic reactions in their snakes from using PAM...I'm not positive what else might be of help right now though, other than reducing any further contact he may
have & encourage him to drink water (to help flush out).

thanks i’ll start a new thread. i am upset now i can’t believe i was so blind to the dangers of the chemical. i think for now i’ll bathe him and put him in a different enclosure.
just wondering how i would encourage him to drink? also if this is from poisoning, why didn’t i see the effects the night i sprayed the tank?


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I am afraid that my snake has provent a mite poisoning. last night i sprayed his tank with provent a mite bc he had mites. i removed the water bowl beforehand and let it air out for about 30 mins (as instructed on the label )while i treated him with the mitespray you apply onto them.
fast forward to tonight, i notice he has these weird spasms(see video) now as i am posting this he has the spasms in his neck near his head frequently, especially when he moves.
please see my last thread i posted, moving lumps, for more info i just created this one so i could directly get advice on how to treat a snake with possible proventamite poisoning.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YU8Snutmyq0



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Hope your BP will be okay :(

Snakes usually drink a little bit of water when soaking so maybe wipe him with a warm, damp towel before putting him into the soak.

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Originally Posted by pretzelpretzel

thanks i’ll start a new thread. i am upset now i can’t believe i was so blind to the dangers of the chemical. i think for now i’ll bathe him and put him in a different enclosure.
just wondering how i would encourage him to drink? also if this is from poisoning, why didn’t i see the effects the night i sprayed the tank?


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To get a snake to drink water, you can try several ways:
-gently pass his head under cool trickling water from faucet, or
-holding snake, dip his face into water bowl

I'm hoping that the reason you didn't see immediate effects is that his exposure is MILD (& his prognosis is good?)...but that still doesn't mean you should
ignore symptoms. (when you call the vet, see if you can email them the video you shared here)

And yes, for now, that's what I'd do (bathe, encourage drinking water, & change to another cage since that's an option).

Pesticides are all pretty dangerous to snakes: the first thing I'd personally do to get rid of mites is bathe (soak) snake in mildly soapy water for about 30 minutes
-totally supervised. Many mites drown this way (mild soap- a dab of Ivory liquid- reduces surface tension so mites drown), but some still hide on the snake & you
probably won't get them all that way, but at least it's harmless. You can repeat it daily. Maybe the "Natural Chemistry" would then be enough to get the rest?
Just don't let the snake drink any soapy water...it's not "toxic" but will upset his digestive tract...that's one reason you have to stay right there when bathing
a snake. And obviously, you cannot submerge his head so some mites may hide on his face (around eyes, in pits, under chin) & will escape the bath.

Contact the manufacturer to see what they recommend. They might even be able to tell you if that is a symptom caused by pam.

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Originally Posted by Treeman

So I guess that since the cage wasn’t aired out enough/ some got in his face, he has permethrine poisoning...

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I think the OP meant the "Natural Chemistry" spray accidentally got in his face, not the "PAM". But I suspect 30 minutes of dry time was not enough for the
cage to have no remaining dampness from the PAM, plus I'm guessing (not sure?) that it was sprayed directly on the cage, whereas most seem to spray PAM on
paper that is used for substrate once dry...I'm not sure if that matters either. I've never used PAM personally, I just know you have to be really careful how you
use it, as it's NOT harmless for snakes. (permethrin is the active ingredient in PAM & has neurotoxic effects)

I'm hoping others have more suggestions than I had on other your thread, but it appears the late hour isn't helping...

Most products have info on the label (what to do in case of), have you read all the "fine print"?

the label says don’t spray in cage with no substrate and i watched some videos where they sprayed it directly onto the substrate.


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hahah i’ve read that can at least a hundred times by now, it only has first aid information for human eye/skin/clothing contact


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Originally Posted by pretzelpretzel

the label says don’t spray in cage with no substrate and i watched some videos where they sprayed it directly onto the substrate.


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I may be wrong, but I think the reason you're supposed to spray it on substrate is that it's oily & doesn't fully dry if sprayed on plastic or glass cage?
Whereas on paper (like most people say they spray it on) it is absorbed into the paper ("substrate") so the snake cannot contact it. :confusd: As I said, I've never used it.

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Originally Posted by pretzelpretzel

hahah i’ve read that can at least a hundred times by now, it only has first aid information for human eye/skin/clothing contact


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Yeah, that figures....:( And I don't think that's "right" either :mad:....humans are much safer using permethrin than reptiles are. (it's used to kill head lice on kids)

Did you bathe him yet? Get him to drink water?

i tried to get him to drink water but he wouldn’t, i think he’s just so hungry(he didn’t eat last week cuz he shed and he didn’t eat this week(he eats monday’s) bc i wanted to get the mites out of the way))i bathed him. other than the occasional neck bump hes acting normal and he feels fine. put him in a different container too. i’ll update this as soon as i get info from or go to the vet!!


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Not sure what people are suppose to conclude from that video, if your snake was suffering from chemical exposure it would spin, stargaze, not be able to right itself up and since this video is not showing a snake in full motion (head to tail shot of the animal moving slithering on a FLAT surface is what you need)

Just no seeing a neurological issue and could not see one if there was one.

i watched him crawl when i removed him from the tank, now just his neck is twitching like this, the rest of him crawling normally. also i watched him to check for signs such as stargazing etc and he was acting totally normal


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Originally Posted by pretzelpretzel

i watched him crawl when i removed him from the tank, now just his neck is twitching like this, the rest of him crawling normally. also i watched him to check for signs such as stargazing etc and he was acting totally normal


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I think & hope it's just a mild exposure & will pass with no lasting harm. I agree that a severe reaction would be as Deborah described, but I also can't think what
else would have caused that "moving lumps" video. Could only offer my "best guess" & logically that points to PAM. 'Nite & best of luck.

I agree with Deborah, it's very hard to see what's going on in that video. It does not look like poisoning to me, I'd expect twitching movements and head wobbles and not being able to move very well.

Not knowing what part of the body that is, it almost looks like a severe heart beat. I know people have talked about seeing that before.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I've never used the stuff as I've not dealt with any snake mites since before this stuff (PAM) was on the market, but my understanding is that
many who treat their cages with it allow them to dry for hours or overnight before introducing the snake back in, to be on the safe side.

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I've used PAM since the early 2000s when I had a mite outbreak and ever since for treating QT. Spray cage and paper substrate, let it dry overnight. I usually put outside or near an open window.
I don't think that's what is causing the issue in the video, but it's really too hard to tell. I do agree 30 min was not enough time to let it dry out though.

OP, I hope your lil one is okay and the vet can tell you what is going on.

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

I agree with Deborah, it's very hard to see what's going on in that video. It does not look like poisoning to me, I'd expect twitching movements and head wobbles and not being able to move very well.

Not knowing what part of the body that is, it almost looks like a severe heart beat. I know people have talked about seeing that before.

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i agree w/ April. i've seen this before. it's an erratic heartbeat.

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Originally Posted by Ax01

i agree w/ April. i've seen this before. it's an erratic heartbeat.

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I've never heard of that, what can be done for it? Is it a problem?

how could t be his heartbeat if it was in his stomach and also in his neck near his head?


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if it is severe heart beat.. what is causing that? is it super harmful to him?


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How is he doing? (any change?) Do you have a vet appointment?

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

I agree with Deborah, it's very hard to see what's going on in that video. It does not look like poisoning to me, I'd expect twitching movements and head wobbles and not being able to move very well.

Not knowing what part of the body that is, it almost looks like a severe heart beat. I know people have talked about seeing that before.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ax01

i agree w/ April. i've seen this before. it's an erratic heartbeat.

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Originally Posted by SquirmyPug

I've never heard of that, what can be done for it? Is it a problem?

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i've seen it once when i first joined the forum. i recall that the vid was just like that.

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Originally Posted by pretzelpretzel

how could t be his heartbeat if it was in his stomach and also in his neck near his head?

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i would guess that they're snakes and they're stretchy.

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Originally Posted by pretzelpretzel

if it is severe heart beat.. what is causing that? is it super harmful to him?

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i don't remember and i'm trying to find the thread. either way i think your snake is due for a vet visit for a sonogram, EKG or whatever they use to look inside your snake.

I think it was this thread:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-bottom-scales

That's interesting, but the beating stayed in one place, unlike the 'moving lumps' video. And no, the heartbeat shouldn't be in the stomach...snakes just
aren't that "stretchy".

I only saw one lump in the video in one spot, so I was basing my comments on the video that OP shared.

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

I think it was this thread:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-bottom-scales

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ah yes! that's it. it was a thread from Spaz lol. right under our nose. from her post, it seems like Thresh her Pin was either started by a camera flash during sex w/ Liliana her BEL or he had a heart attack b/c of the above mentioned stuff.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

That's interesting, but the beating stayed in one place, unlike the 'moving lumps' video. And no, the heartbeat shouldn't be in the stomach...snakes just
aren't that "stretchy".

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we didn't see a full body vid of OP's snake. it's hard to say if it was neck, chest, stomach, gut or whatver. it's just 1 section that was prob less than 2inches apart from lump to lump.

either way, i think OP's snake is due for a vet visit and fancy machines to look inside.

just came home from the vet.. he thinks it was a food bolus. he could feel the food bolus sort of near pretzels tail. he thinks that pretzel felt threatened (possibly from the PAM) and was trying to move it out, but then decided to swallow it back down and how he’s digested it , hence why it’s in the lower part of his body now. I’m still going to keep an eye on him. Since i sprayed PAM directly on the mulch, should i put new mulch in the tank and then try the paper towel method?


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Glad you had him checked out...:gj: I'll let others who use PAM respond to your question though.