Spider wobble

Well I knew what I was getting into by getting a spider , and I have no issue with the wobble , but it’s sad to look at the snake try n reposition it self constantly, I just want to know like if the snake is okay and will be okay , is this going to effect anything long term or not , and jsut any advice for keeping a spider ball python

Yes Also when I’m handling the snake it doesn’t really wobble bad at all , but putting her back in the enclosure she jsut does it very bad , not sure if this is normal or not. And she has been in my enclosure for a while now and has not even went to the hide , I have 2 . it was recently in jsut a self rack thing , but idk if this is normal or not, she jsut sits in the middle and doesn’t move very much at all

From what I’ve read this is all normal behavior for the spider morphs.


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Why would they keep allowing reproduction of this morph?
It seems like a genetic defect

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

Why would they keep allowing reproduction of this morph?
It seems like a genetic defect

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It is a genetic defect. Apparently it’s a touchy subject for some. Personally I won’t ever own or breed them which sucks because they are beautiful animals.


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Yes they are beautiful but the welfare of the animal should always be top priority

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I feel opting not to breed them is very commendable

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The problem is, there are plenty enough spiders that don't have much of a wobble and their lives aren't affected at all that breeders feel comfortable breeding them. Unfortunately you end up with some that have a bad wobble, and there's no way to control which one you're going to produce.

This is an extreme case most Spiders are just fine often with issue that is barely noticeable, they are not the only ones that wobble but the only ones people target when it comes to breeding because most ignore the fact that severe wobbler are not that common.

OP I am not sure how you keep your temps but I would recommend to keep your hot side no higher than 86, things such as temps and stress can affect Spiders and they do best kept at lower temps.

Ball Pythons will quickly tell you if something isn't right with them, or for them. If they stress for any reason, they do not do well, they stop eating, they cruise, etc.

Most spider morphs are actually great feeders. They seem not to know that anything is wrong with them, seem to not be in pain (there is a comparable issue with dogs, they fall over while walk and run, look like drunk, yet are as happy as can be)

Incidentally they also often seem quite calm and sweet snakes, although I have no idea if that has anything to do with their genetics.

The wobble can be severe, or it can be barely there. I had a Bumble Bee who never wobbled. The worst she did was miss her FT rat as she struck out, and that was only occasionally. But yes, they all carry it. It can get better, it can get worse.

If they are well settled in and don't stress about anything (mine even handled often and beautifully, curious, not afraid) the wobble can lessen. Usually worst during feeding time, during excitement or stress.

All that said, the Spider gene is far from the only one with issues.

Not sure exactly, but Caramels and other morphs had issues with kinking. Never knew what you would get when breeding them. Some were so severe, they couldn't eat. Albinos can have issues with eyes. We all know that bright light is bothersome for any species with Albinism. And snakes can't close their eyes or blink. Yet, those genetics are in MANY morphs.

I know there are some issues with Cinnamons. There are some that seem to have issues with duck bill faces to downright deformed sinuses.

Those are just the ones we know about or can actually see. Never know what may go on internally.

Morphs are genetic aberrations. All of them are. The ones that are severe just don't survive. Desert females can't reproduce. Some super forms are always lethal and die.

Such is the thing when you breed. Even breeding normals can produce issues, if you do to much inbreeding. That actually goes for any species.

Coming back to the spiders, I've come across many that were simply delightful animals. When I decided to concentrate on Desert Ghost only and sold my other adults, the Bumblebee went on to a good home. The new owner is breeding her, but also said that this snake has quickly become his favorite. She always eats, she is curious and calm, she is the bet "pet" one could ask for.

I'm not breeding them. I do find a severe wobble sad. But there are many that are perfectly fine.

As long as people buy wobbly spiders: breeders will continue to produce them.

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

As long as people buy wobbly spiders: breeders will continue to produce them.

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Bingo!!! (I find them sad too & I would never intentionally breed any snakes that have such defects, no matter how lovable...sorry.)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Bingo!!! (I find them sad too & I would never intentionally breed any snakes that have such defects, no matter how lovable...sorry.)

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Exactly. If you look on MM, the only morph that has more postings than spiders are bananas which are popular right now.


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So what is the attraction with buying a spider? Color only?

They make pretty morphs.

Just like Albinos, Caramels, Cinnamons and all the combos that include those.

List I've found, may not be current, though..

http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

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Originally Posted by MR Snakes

So what is the attraction with buying a spider? Color only?

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Yes, it’s just another aesthetically pleasing paint job. Unfortunately it comes with this defect that nobody really understands.

You can breed a spider to a normal ball and produce spider and normal offspring. The normal offsprings will be fine, the spider offspring will have the wobble. To me that’s a defect, a way of nature saying that this isn’t supposed to be. Same with the woma, super cinnamons and a few others.

I feel like until it’s figured out, they shouldn’t be bred in these massive numbers. Just my opinion.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

Yes, it’s just another aesthetically pleasing paint job. Unfortunately it comes with this defect that nobody really understands.

You can breed a spider to a normal ball and produce spider and normal offspring. The normal offsprings will be fine, the spider offspring will have the wobble. To me that’s a defect, a way of nature saying that this isn’t supposed to be. Same with the woma, super cinnamons and a few others.

I feel like until it’s figured out, they shouldn’t be bred in these massive numbers. Just my opinion.


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I totally agree. This just seems to be an injustice to the snake.

Actually what I would really like to see is how many wild caught spiders have been found. From what I have read online, they have only imported one spider from Africa. NERD bred that spider and started the whole thing. If this is true and only one has been found, it’s a clear sign (to me anyway) that the animal can not survive and reproduce in the wild with this condition. Thoughts?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

Actually what I would really like to see is how many wild caught spiders have been found. From what I have read online, they have only imported one spider from Africa. NERD bred that spider and started the whole thing. If this is true and only one has been found, it’s a clear sign (to me anyway) that the animal can not survive and reproduce in the wild with this condition. Thoughts?


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Sadly, those who would breed such animals have been rationalizing it by insisting that since they're only pets anyway, it doesn't matter whether they'd survive in 'real life'.
I couldn't disagree more..."nature" (ie. natural selection) gets it right & if anything happens to the wild populations** we won't be able to replenish them. :(
**What could go wrong??? Geez, habitat destruction, pollution, climate change (keep in mind that some diseases & vectors do far better in a warmer world).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Sadly, those who would breed such animals have been rationalizing it by insisting that since they're only pets anyway, it doesn't matter whether they'd survive in 'real life'.
I couldn't disagree more...

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Would they rationalize the same way with a human life?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

Would they rationalize the same way with a human life? ...

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Exactly! For those of you who have kids, & those of you that plan to, would YOU mind if your kid's head shook? Or would you rather it didn't? If you could prevent
it, wouldn't you?

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

Would they rationalize the same way with a human life?


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They actually already do...... I know couple that have had a disabled child and tried again with the same results...

This thread is veering wildly off course.

I'm not one to promote breeding animals that cannot live pain free, or where the chance that the offspring has a fatal defect is high...just to get that one special one.

That said, (hey, that's becoming a favorite thing to say, LOL) MOST of nowadays morphs wouldn't survive in the wild. Simply because they can't camouflage very well. So should we breed none ? Or only the ones that look mostly normal ?

Lets take this further, what kind of dog breed would survive in the wild ? Even the ones established hundreds of years ago ? How about English bulldogs or flat nosed breeds and their breathing issues? Genetic heart issues in some breeds ? Extremely tiny dogs with holes in the skulls that won't close, extremely large breeds that don't live long because their hearts can't support that mass for long? How about all the other breeds in between ?

How about our "domesticated" birds ?

And please, lets not get into what "breedings" would be moral or immoral in human beings, that is a very slippery slope. Many people that have some genetic issues still want children, even though sometimes there is a small chance the child will inherit it. Who am I to say only perfect specimen can "breed" ? How about only pretty people? Strong ones ? How about we forbid those obese people to breed, there is a genetic factor and we all know they aren't the strongest and prettiest. Yes, I know how that sounds, and I'm being sarcastic.

Point being, esp. with Ball Pythons, the entire "morph craze" did nothing but good things for that species, really. They used to get imported by the hundred thousands. For each one that actually made it to the US alive, there were probably 10 that died between capture and getting here. The ones that made it, sick, stressed, parasite ridden, fearful ...Let's just say the majority didn't live very long. It was a huge throw-away industry.

Thanks to the morph craze there are now so very many captive bred and healthy BP's that there is no need to pick them off and import them in those huge numbers. So if anything, that will have helped the wild population.
And normals aren't going away anytime soon, should we ever need to breed to re-introduce into the wild. As a matter of fact, most species die out BECAUSE their wild is declining. Their habitat is shrinking. There is nowhere for them to go. So keeping a healthy captive bred population is a good thing.

Most morphs are very pretty and unique. I find many Normals prettier then some morphs, too, though. Beauty is truly in the eye of the Beholder. And it is fun that there is so much to choose from.

Honestly, I find that most opponents to the spiders are those who have never owned one, or only seen the bad ones. Its simply the most known about and recognizable issue with BP's. It is also actually the least bothersome to the snake, unless you have a severe one. If you keep those snakes for many years, you tend to learn a bit about them. You learn to recognize stress. Or when something is wrong with them. They can be tense, relaxed. Hiding, cruising. Cruising for food, cruising for stress. Be curious, be fearful. Some people see a sweet snake, when really it is a terrified and shy one that doesn't dare to move.

The spiders I've come across personally, and even owned for 7 years, were absolutely awesome snakes in all regards. Would have been a shame had they never existed. I never owned any of the other morphs that can have genetic issues, so I can't say how their quality of life is affected.

To me that is what it comes down to, quality of life. Pain free.

Some could say flat nosed dog breeds shouldn't exist or be allowed to die out. Or all the dogs that wouldn't make it in the wild.

Opinions are opinions, though. And everyone is entitled to their own :)

As long as there is a demand they will continue to be bred just like any other animal

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To often we only see the hatchlings or young snakes. Most morphs look absolutely stunning when young, only to get a bit duller with age.

So here a few pics of a spider morph that actually has a few years on her.


As a hatchling:


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/IMG_4082.JPG


enjoying the outdoors as a youngster:


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/SAM_0191.JPG


always up for some time out without showing the smallest signs of stress at all


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/SAM_0324.JPG


as a adult , several years old, still enjoying time out..


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/IMG_0058.JPG


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/IMG_0061.JPG


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/IMG_0062.JPG


Lots of fun with this girl that is just as easy going as can be :)


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...65210837_o.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...59237718_n.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...91198654_o.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...63866820_o.jpg


and here, glowing with impending motherhood ;)


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens.../huge/m2_1.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...35244302_n.jpg


She is now 9 years old, as sweet as can be, continues to give her new owner as much joy as she has me. Its now his wife's favorite snake, the only one she isn't nervous about.


Of course you can have that with ANY snake. Any morph or even a normal, if you get lucky enough to end up with one that has that health and personality.

My point is just that spiders aren't automatically doomed snakes with horrible lives. Most live perfectly normal lives, as that defect doesn't cause pain nor does it keep them from eating. The severe cases may even have additional factors going on. Perhaps to much stress in their lives (given how many BP's altogether do, not far fetched) not the correct husbandry, to hot, to cold, starved, subjected to mites, disease, fumes, who knows...

I have opted not to introduce any spiders into my upcoming breedings because I do not want to take the chance that I may end up with a severe one. But I have no issues with those breeding them, as I know most are great snakes.

With that large of a choice of BP's, its easy to avoid getting a certain morph, if one is morally opposed to it. There is nothing wrong with not agreeing with certain breedings and to avoid them.

and yes, I loved the chance of showing off Maya :) She is awesome in all regards !!

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Originally Posted by zina10

To often we only see the hatchlings or young snakes. Most morphs look absolutely stunning when young, only to get a bit duller with age.

So here a few pics of a spider morph that actually has a few years on her.


As a hatchling:


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/IMG_4082.JPG


enjoying the outdoors as a youngster:


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/SAM_0191.JPG


always up for some time out without showing the smallest signs of stress at all


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/SAM_0324.JPG


as a adult , several years old, still enjoying time out..


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/IMG_0058.JPG


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/IMG_0061.JPG


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/IMG_0062.JPG


Lots of fun with this girl that is just as easy going as can be :)


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...65210837_o.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...59237718_n.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...91198654_o.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...63866820_o.jpg


and here, glowing with impending motherhood ;)


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens.../huge/m2_1.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...35244302_n.jpg


She is now 9 years old, as sweet as can be, continues to give her new owner as much joy as she has me. Its now his wife's favorite snake, the only one she isn't nervous about.


Of course you can have that with ANY snake. Any morph or even a normal, if you get lucky enough to end up with one that has that health and personality.

My point is just that spiders aren't automatically doomed snakes with horrible lives. Most live perfectly normal lives, as that defect doesn't cause pain nor does it keep them from eating. The severe cases may even have additional factors going on. Perhaps to much stress in their lives (given how many BP's altogether do, not far fetched) not the correct husbandry, to hot, to cold, starved, subjected to mites, disease, fumes, who knows...

I have opted not to introduce any spiders into my upcoming breedings because I do not want to take the chance that I may end up with a severe one. But I have no issues with those breeding them, as I know most are great snakes.

With that large of a choice of BP's, its easy to avoid getting a certain morph, if one is morally opposed to it. There is nothing wrong with not agreeing with certain breedings and to avoid them.

and yes, I loved the chance of showing off Maya :) She is awesome in all regards !!

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She is a beautiful snake! I agree that they are beautiful and make great pets.

I do have to disagree with something you said about dogs being bred with certain negative traits, especially the English Bulldog breed. DNA tests have been done to find out the history of the breed and determine where it comes from. It turns out that the cause of the health issues comes from severe inbreeding by breeders and a small selection of ancestors. I think you would find that almost all the breeds you’re thinking of have been bred by breeders to become what they are today so no, they wouldn’t survive in the wild because they were never in the wild to begin with. They were bred by humans for certain physical traits without regard to health.


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Don't see the disagreement there.

Breeds like English Bulldogs have health issues. Not all have severe health issues. But they are there. I owned 2 of them, and they came from quality lines, I do my home work. But no matter if you get the healthiest one, they cannot breathe like a dog with a normal nose. A xray will explain why.

I still love them, though, and so do many other people.

My point was, many people easily jump on the wagon of saying this or that isn't right. Unless it hits to close to home. Its easy to say we should only breed what is strong and could survive in the wild. But really, what do we breed that could? Yet, we love our pets and livestock. I can't imagine life without them.

Also easy to say people that aren't perfect shouldn't have children, but really, where does that stop? People with obvious genetic defects? Hidden ones? Traits?

All I'm saying, its not really black and while. There is a lot of grey.

I have to say, I really like how everyone is stating opinions respectfully. This is how it should be. We don't all have to agree, but our love for those animals is what we all share, and this place and its members are so great to share it with :) Whether we agree or respectfully disagree :)

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Originally Posted by zina10

Don't see the disagreement there.

Breeds like English Bulldogs have health issues. Not all have severe health issues. But they are there. I owned 2 of them, and they came from quality lines, I do my home work. But no matter if you get the healthiest one, they cannot breathe like a dog with a normal nose. A xray will explain why.

I still love them, though, and so do many other people.

My point was, many people easily jump on the wagon of saying this or that isn't right. Unless it hits to close to home. Its easy to say we should only breed what is strong and could survive in the wild. But really, what do we breed that could? Yet, we love our pets and livestock. I can't imagine life without them.

Also easy to say people that aren't perfect shouldn't have children, but really, where does that stop? People with obvious genetic defects? Hidden ones? Traits?

All I'm saying, its not really black and while. There is a lot of grey.

I have to say, I really like how everyone is stating opinions respectfully. This is how it should be. We don't all have to agree, but our love for those animals is what we all share, and this place and its members are so great to share it with :) Whether we agree or respectfully disagree :)

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I can promise you I’ll never disrespect anyone here! I just enjoy hearing different opinions on things. And what you said is true, we all love our pets, regardless of their faults. [emoji106]


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Really enjoying reading through this discussion, thought I might put in my two cents :)
I personally disagree with the purposeful breeding of animals with the potential of crippling defects. Not all spiders/other bps with defects show signs, but I think just the possibility of the having severe defects is enough to not want to breed them, even if some of them are normal, healthy animals. And I know there's a chance of any animal being born with a serious defect, but the chances are much lower. I might be in the minority here but in my opinion breeders knowing that there are high chances of an animal they're breeding to be born with a disability and still decide to breed seem kind of unethical to me. They are beautiful animals but if we're sacrificing their health for that, I can't justify supporting that.

I'm not going to say much about dogs (specifically flat faced varieties) because I don't want to get too off topic, but I wholeheartedly appose breeding them. I've seen first hand how bad their health problems can be , most of my extended family is obsessed with flat faced dogs and I've watched too many of their dogs pass away too early because of breed related issues. My parents have a pug currently who is blind and deaf, has had countless ear, face and eye infections and can barely breathe. He's a sweet dog and I love him but I feel so sad for him because he should not have been bred like this (and he came from a good, reputable breeder).

And just for the record, I'm not by any means trying to say people who breed or buy these animals are bad people, I'm sure most of them are lovely, but I do strongly disagree with their practices

I'll add one more thought here: I cannot deny the beauty created with morphs..."eye candy"! But please realize that no matter how stunning a snake is, when
we see it everyday it becomes 'normal' & our fickle eyes crave a different "eye candy". It is for that reason I don't think it's worth breeding animals with genetic
defects no matter HOW stunning they turn out. You (-whoever owns them) still have to live with them for the rest of their lives....personally, I would feel guilty
for having contributed to making more of them just because they "sell". Just my :2cent:...

And I don't think we're "off-topic" at all...just on a touchy one, since the OP expressed sadness & mixed feelings about his new pet.

That’s what kind of reply I was looking for thank u , if the snake isn’t in pain or anything then it’s fine , her wobble isn’t too bad , she does the whole corkscrew thing when I put her back she’s fine handling and slithering on her own

Agree

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Let me clarify what I am agreeing to is that they should not be bred there's plenty of other morphs to choose from and in all honesty there's probably too many ..We need to be happy with what's out there and just stop trying to make that high-dollar on a new color

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

And I don't think we're "off-topic" at all...just on a touchy one, since the OP expressed sadness & mixed feelings about his new pet.

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To clarify, the slippery and very off topic slope that Zina so eloquently summarized is trying to extrapolate, in any way, BP morphs/genetic defects to persons with disabilities. I'm happy that the conversation has gotten back on track.