Yafe - Albino Carpet Progression Thread

Yesterdays drama/shipping disaster ended well and I am starting this fresh thread for Yafe's progression.

Link to initial thread: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-Carpet-Python

He's curled up on top of his house on the warm side and left me a present last night. Katie will be home soon and I will clean his tank and she can hold him. I'll post more pictures if I take them.

He seems to be settling nicely and I'll keep everyone up to date on this thread from now.

Really glad he's settled eventually

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We took Yafe out today to clean his tank and he's still calm and chill. We ran outside for a minute (not too many 70F+ days left here in CT) and got some natural light pictures. It's cloudy and the sun is not out, but it's better than basement light.

He seems to be settling in nicely. I plan to feed Sunday (today is Wednesday).

Here are the outside pictures and a few inside as well. Notice the nuance and variety of color on his body in the outside pictures. You can better see the different oranges and yellows and the pinks and lavenders in these pictures.

He's only 115G now and his grip is tenacious. WOW!

​Cute face, with killer heat pits!

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GRIP!!!!!!

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I got clarification on the pronunciation of Yafe's name. I spoke to my cousin, who lived in Israel, and was in the Israeli Army, before joining the US Marine Corp as an F-18 pilot.

He said Yafe, is pronounced Yah-Feh, not Yah-Fee. Glad I learned the correct pronunciation before he's been here too long. I would hate to call him one thing and then another, it might confuse him! :):rolleye2:

I'll update soon, especially after he (hopefully) eats his first meal with us on Sunday.

Really is a great colour and the heat pits are so cool

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He is a glamorous fella for sure, love the name always a good thing to know how to properly pronounce it I probably mangle it as well. Thank you so much for sharing and best wishes always..:gj:

So I was pronouncing it correctly all along. Yay me! ;)

Those eyes tough...!

you have quite the collection of gorgeous eyes snakes let me tell ya!!

Very nice Albino Carpets are just one of those WOW snakes to me, and used to be on my dream snake to have list.

Wow!!!! Totally missed this. Gorgeous stunning amazing pickup Dakski! מעוד יפה! (Ma-od Yafe-hebrew for very handsome[emoji39]).

That was definitely a quick pickup. I know my next snake will be a carpet, I actually held my first one (adult IJ) this past Tuesday at a friends, and they're just incredible. Been stalking Star Pythons on MM for the past 2 months already lol. And those heat pits wow! I know exactly what you mean, they look so bada**. Hopefully I will be adding one after my T10s get here in a month (or 5).

Truly a wonderful, beautiful addition. So happy for you. I wish you lots of luck and a long, healthy, and happy life with the new baby. תתחדש! (Titchadesh-hebrew for something new should bring and be in good health)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Very nice Albino Carpets are just one of those WOW snakes to me, and used to be on my dream snake to have list.

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Deborah,

I have an animal that used to be on YOUR dream snake list! WOW!

I've seen plenty of yellow and white albino carpets, and actually prefer the natural coloration over that "simple" look. Just my preference. I like contrast and unique coloration. When I saw how orange he was, especially on his head, and the nuance in his colors, I was in love. Plus, I was told he is a total sweetie, which checks out.

I was also looking at a much more expensive female, an Albino Granite, who had pinks in her white spots, but being a granite, had very little contrast. Yafe is just a striking animal, even if he is "just" albino, het Granite.

I also love his demeanor. He's part boa and part corn snake. He can move a little quicker than a Boa, but is usually chill, and when he does move, it's exploratory and curious in nature. He is not shy and spends most of his time in the open so far. I put him in a hide last night and he stayed there for a while, but his favorite spot seems to be curled up in the warm corner between the wall and hide, with his head peaking out to see what I am doing. I believe he lived in a tub/rack before, so he hasn't completely figured out the "branches" yet. I hope he does and can enjoy his 4X2X1.5' Boaphile with two 4FT climbing "branches" (PVC pipe) in it. I am sure he will figure it out.

He also has quite the grip. He's about 115G and as thick as my thumb and his tail alone is incredibly powerful. He wrapped around Katie's hand and wrist for 3 minutes, and she started to lose circulation. Again, he's 1 year old and 115G! Wow, he's going to be strong.

Behira (BCI) is powerful, but it's spread out. Yafe has so much strength in just his tail and back section. Really cool guy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by richardhind1972

Really is a great colour and the heat pits are so cool

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I love Behira (BCI) and think she is beautiful and is my favorite snake to handle. However, I love me some heat pits! They are so cool.

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Originally Posted by C.Marie

He is a glamorous fella for sure, love the name always a good thing to know how to properly pronounce it I probably mangle it as well. Thank you so much for sharing and best wishes always..:gj:

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Yeah, he's a handsome devil. Yeah, close call on the name pronunciation; glad I got to the bottom of it. Thank you for the kind words.

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

So I was pronouncing it correctly all along. Yay me! ;)

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I didn't know you spoke Hebrew EL-Ziggy :)!

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Originally Posted by Phillydubs

Those eyes tough...!

you have quite the collection of gorgeous eyes snakes let me tell ya!!

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Yeah, love pretty eyes. That's how I ended up with Katie and her gorgeous blue eyes.

Behira and Carra have those dark grey/marble looking eyes. Shayna and Solana have those bright red eyes. Figment's eyes are freaking purple! Yafe's eyes are that cool red, but not plain red, whitish red with nuance. Kayla and Cleo have deep red eyes.

Frank has brown eyes, but he talks with them. Want to know how Frank is feeling? Look at his eyes.

Finally, Ezzy has killer eyes. Huge and beautifully whitish yellow.

Yep, Phillydubs, I'd we are 10/10 on reptile eyes.

Thanks for the comment brother.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dakski

Deborah,

I have an animal that used to be on YOUR dream snake list! WOW!

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Oh yeah I owned carpets in the past but for years ever since I saw the first Albino in the US I wanted one (the prices were just out of my range), I made up for it last year I got 2 pure Darwin Albinos ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Oh yeah I owned carpets in the past but for years ever since I saw the first Albino in the US I wanted one (the prices were just out of my range), I made up for it last year I got 2 pure Darwin Albinos ;)

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Nice! If I didn't mention, Yafe is a Irian Jaya and Darwin Hybrid.

Good for you crossing snakes off your bucket list! I have only one snake left on my bucket list; 1/2 dwarf Burmese. That will probably never happen because I don't trust the whole Lacey Act fiasco.

I know what you mean about wanting one for years.

I wanted an albino BP for 20 years before I got Shayna. When I was younger they were crazy money. Worked out, I waited until I was older and could both afford and understand how to properly care for her, and my other reptiles.

Not a good update:

Handled Yafe today and he was distressed. He was making popping noises and mucus/bubbles are coming out of his nostrils. He seems very uncomfortable and was making lunges/flails towards me - not bites or strikes, but was clearly uncomfortable.

Not good at all.

Looks like an RI for sure.

I am calling the breeder to complain and I am taking him in to the vet, 2 hours away, tomorrow at 11AM.

I will report after.

Very upset and distressed. Praying this is an easy fix and we get him on track quickly.

Luckily he didn't sit in that shipping box for 2 days we did pick him up on the expected delivery date. May be a blessing.

Fingers crossed for you ,hope all goes well

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Congrats on your Beautiful Carpet! You’re in for some fun. :)

Sorry to hear of the RI. :(

Best

Sometimes the stress of shipping can bring these things out*. Vet should be able to get it sorted for you, best wishes for a speedy recovery!

*I have an adult BRB for 5 years in perfect health, shipped him off to his new home where he had an RI the next day. It's not super common but it does happen sometimes. (just so you don't get distressed if breeder tells you he was fine there as he may very well have been)

Im on Tapatalk so cant see pics :(
I’ll have to figure out how to get back on a computer and log in hahaha.
Albino (any constrictor) will always be my favs. Im sorry to hear about the RI. I’ll see how you come along and what the vet prescribed. Ive always been nervous about what id do if one of mine needed any kinds of injections.. I’m not one for needles.



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Thoughts and prayers for you guys. I hope it goes ok [emoji173]

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I'm so sorry to hear this D. I hope it's just a minor issue. Wishing y'all well and please keep us posted.

Quick update:

Yafe’s symptoms appear to be getting worse. He keeps lifting his head and is clearly uncomfortable and having difficulty breathing.

We are at the Emergency Small Animal Clinic at Tufts University. 1 1/4 hours from our house in CT.

Yafe is in the ER with a reptile vet. It’s a sterile environment so we are not allowed back. Katie came with me.

I believe this needed to be addressed immediately.

I will update as I know more.

Very concerned but also optimistic; he’s getting seen now and Katie and I will do whatever it takes to get him back on track.

Thank you for all the support and for the kind thoughts.

I will update ASAP.

I'm so sorry to hear this, hope he gets well quickly...scary that he got so sick so quickly!

I hope this means he is getting ALL the "drama" out of the way early, so the rest of his life with you & Katie is healthy & peaceful...:please:

I just got back from the ER Vet at Tufts. It's 2:30AM here in CT, USA. We left at 8PM and got to the vet (there was traffic and construction) at 9:20PM. We left the vet after 1AM.

Yafe almost definitely has an respiratory infection; there is little doubt. It's really bad and the vet I saw tonight believes it's been there, but absolutely could have gotten worse with shipping.

Unfortunately for Yafe, he has to have a quick lung flush (I forgot the name of the procedure and it's been a long day and a long week) and culture tomorrow morning to determine if it's bacterial or fungal. Not a fun experience for him.

He is staying overnight in a sterile environment and a special reptile cage with temps dialed in to 90F hot side and 78F cool side. It's probably not as luxurious as his digs here, but he doesn't have to travel back home tonight in the car and back again tomorrow and back here, etc. They can also do the flush first thing and hopefully know quickly which it is and what the treatment needs to be.

Either way, he needs me and Katie to give him shots for a while to get better. The duration of the shots and what the medicine will be will be determined after the culture.

I am so livid. I feel so horrible for Yafe.

First, his introduction to his forever home is a long shipment in a box (thank G-D I spent 7 hours on the phone with fedex and was able to pick him up Tuesday night at the airport and didn't wait to the next morning - can you imagine how bad it might be now - if he made it?) and then weeks of injections. Poor guy. I hope I don't lose his trust; he's so sweet. Even in clear discomfort, if not worse, he's a total sweetheart. I have also heard that once a snake has an RI, they are more susceptible the rest of their lives. Is this true? I would hate to have to deal with this again over the next 20-25 years.

Secondly, as far as I am concerned (I will know more definitively tomorrow), he was (likely) either weak or sick when he was shipped. The shipping fiasco did not help, but I am doubtful this came on in 2 days this bad (as is the vet), and definitely not because of anything I did. I feel the breeder potentially put my other pets at risk (luckily I am following strict quarantine protocol) and definitely put Yafe at risk.

Finally, in addition to the inconvenience of giving him treatment, the estimate for the lung flush and treatment, plus tonight's visit, is for $800-$1,000. I plan to address this with the breeder, but I am not sure how to "make" him do the right thing, despite showing symptoms within 24 hours of arrival. I already handed over $750 tonight as a deposit so they will do the test in the morning.

That's two animals to the emergency vet this week and $1,400 now. Banning, one of five dogs we have, hurt his elbow on Monday night (he's doing better and it was just a sprain).

Any thoughts on an RI two days after arrival?

Any thoughts about what I should ask the breeder to do? Obviously, I am not shipping him back, that would kill him. He's here and I have to treat him and he's already my buddy. Any thoughts on culpability?

Wow, this thread is full of drama now. I started this thread to get rid of all the shipping drama stories from his original thread. Should I start another for healthy Yafe, when he gets healthy that is?

Any thoughts or just kind words would be appreciated at this point.

Thank you all for your continued support for me, Katie, and the reptile crew!

I just got a horrible email from the owner of the breeder (while I was writing an email to him explaining what happened at the vet). He seems to be saying it's my fault because I handled him for 5 minutes the day he came to check him over and yesterday when I took him out to remove his feces. He further claims I should be leaving him alone (I guess to sit in his feces and today to drown in his mucus). To be clear the owner of the company (breeding company) is not who I spoke to. They are based in Europe and I was dealing with the US Rep.

See below (except for XXXXXX out names and the company name, the letter is verbatim) and please let me know if you think I am off base here. I don't think so.

Good Morning David,

this is XXXXXX, owner of XXXXXXXX I am jumping in at this point here. First of all, I am very sorry to hear that there seems to be an issue. I have received a few dozen emails so far I guess. I have not read all of them, but as far as I understand the headlines there was a problem with FedEx.
I will call XXXXXX later [COLOR=var(--themePrimary)]today to discuss your case.[/COLOR]

I would like to say that I am very sorry to hear that you did not contact us earlier when you first thought something was wrong, but only after you´ve got yourself into a what seems to be a stressful situation.
At this point, I can´t see why you would drive two hours to this vet you are talking about. You have received a snake that was shipped (with FedEx problems?) and now shows signs of an RI you say.
First thing I would do is check the temperatures in the cage, maybe bump them up a few degrees, and check again next week! Most important: Leave the snake alone.
Never say never, but in 11 years I am doing this now, I have never had that happen. But ok, they are individuals, things can be different. My impression is that this snake is in constant stress for two or three days now, cause it´s not only the shipment itself, but I also received many pictures of you handling the snake?
When I receive a reptile, no matter what it is, I will leave it alone for at least one week after a shipment to make sure it calms down and doesn’t get stressed more. I do not handle them at all.

Again, what I would do: Bump up the temps a bit, leave the snake alone in its cage until next week, don’t touch it. Don´t feed it or anything else. In case you have bedding in your cage, remove it and exchange for paper towel/newspaper. Make sure the humidity is between 50-60%.
There are two options what’s going to happen:

A) The snake will be fine again.
B) The snake is still sick because it´s a bacterial infection, probably caused by Pseudomonas aeruginosa, that it can’t handle itself. You will need antibiotics (Enrofloxacin or Marbofloxacin).

Waiting another week will have no effect on option B and will give us some time to analyze the situation and understand what’s wrong. What I know for sure is that another four hours in the car won´t help at this point!
As I understand it´s been awhile since you´ve been to a vet the last time. Sadly, not much progress has been made. So all your vet can do is to take a swab that going to be send to a lab and next week you would hear back, probably only to drive another four hours to pick up the medicine.

Talking about the finances: You have paid a lot of money for the snake and now it seems to be sick. I completely understand that this must be frustrating, and of course we won’t let you alone in this situation.
BUT: Whatever you do, it needs to be discussed with me directly. In case we have to talk about a replacement at some point (what I don’t hope) I will only be able to compensate for costs that I have approved.
So let’s say you go to a vet, miss a day of work and pay for medicine, I will not be able to refund anything mentioned unless I have given my OK to do this. Please be aware of this and follow this closely.
We don’t want you to pay for something that was not your fault, and we don’t want to pay for things that we have could fixed cheaper.

It´s most important for me to help you and to help your snake. First steps:
1. I will call XXXXXX to discuss the whole thing
2. Please send me pictures of the enclosure and infos about the parameters like temperature (hotspot, regular room temp) and humidity.
Then we will go from there.

I am not saying “don’t go to a vet”, I am just saying “go to the vet at the right time” and that is not today in my opinion and experience.
If you have more questions that you would like to discuss, just let me know and give me your phone number, and I will be able to call you personally.

Looking forward to hearing back from you soon!



This was my response:

It's almost 3AM and I just got back from the emergency vet.


It's pretty clear he has an RI.


He's spending the night at the clinic (it's Tufts Universities Vet Clinic) in a sterile tank with a 90F hot spot and a 78F cool spot. His symptoms were worse tonight when I took him out to take him then they were earlier in the day.


He will have his lungs flushed first things by a doctor who normally does that, as opposed to a resident tonight (also to call a doctor in for tonight to do the procedure was prohibitively expensive), and we will know if it's bacterial or fungal and know what injections to give. Either way, there will be injections. Over what period will be determined by the final diagnosis.


The estimate for diagnosis and treatment is for $800-$1,000 and I gave a $750 deposit tonight.


XXXXXX, while writing this, I got your email.

1. Pictures were taken over a 5 minute or so period on arrival day while checking him over.
2. I took him out of his enclosure yesterday because he pooped in the tank (quarantine = cleanliness first) and was making popping noises while breathing. I attributed it to stress.
3. Today, I could hear the noises from his enclosure and saw bubbles of mucus.
4. Your email is late, as you can see, as the symptoms have escalated and quickly. I had no choice but to take him to the vet. 20 years of keeping reptiles means I am not a newbie and know when something is off. You are welcome to put the blame on me, but I would not recommend it.
5. Not my first reptile. I have 9 others currently, all but two received via fedex. No other sick animals in years of keeping reptiles (except for animals I lost due to old age). Hence proper quarantine procedures.
6. Adam told me what temps to have him at. He is in a 21X12X12" acrylic reptile enclosure with humidity kept between 60-70%. His hot side is 88-90F, his cool side is 78-80F and there is a gradient from hot side to cool side.
7. Are you seriously suggesting I should leave him alone in his tank with proper temps and humidity and let him drown in his own mucus? When was the last time you saw an RI get better on it's own when at the bubbling stage?

Yesterday I thought, "let him rest and get settled at proper temps, a few pops and wheezes could be stress." Today, with mucus bubbles coming out of his nose, that was not an option.


You don't want to reimburse me, that's on you. I am not letting an animal suffer, or worse, die, because you want me to wait it out. I don't want a replacement. I wanted a healthy animal from day one as described by Adam.


For what's worth, he was not shipped with a heat pack. I've never experienced that, but XXXX said it was best. Not sure it was.


You will be hearing from me.

Ah mate that is really bad that's all you need that sort of expense and time out to sort it but worth it to get him back on his none feet, (belly) lol
Fingers crossed all goes well, my big 10yr old boa had an RI about 5yrs ago and never had anything since, Touchwood.
I had to give him antibiotics for a week but luckily it was oral, even tho he hated me giving it him , he never once nipped me or hissed, I think if there was ever a time that would of been it,
Good luck and keep us all posted
Cheers rich

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He was making popping noises and mucus/bubbles are coming out of his nostrils.

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I hate to hear this update an to me based on the fact that mucus is present tells me this snake is not in an early stage but an advanced one of a RI, I would have contacted the breeder/seller and ship the animal back immediately. Hopefully you can still do so and do it now.

RI can be tricky to treat and expensive, in some animals with weaker immune system they can re-occur again and again, so really starting off with a healthy animal to start with regardless of the species is always a better option because this could be a HUGE gamble.

After that I will be more than happy to recommend you a GREAT source of Albino Darwins (person I got mine from)

Best of luck and sorry for the rough start.

I have both shipped a few snakes AND had a few shipped to me, and I've never heard of a snake not being shipped with a heat pack...:confusd: :O
(I could see it for short flights & some kinds that need cooler temps perhaps, but not this one!)

What an awful thing to put the snake AND you through and I so hope he recovers well. I've not heard of snakes getting an RI & then being forever susceptible-
I believe that would only apply to those who did no lab-work in the first place to make sure they were doing the most medically-effective treatment from the start.
When it's not adequately treated in the first place, it would tend to 'come back' as it was never really gone.

The only thing I sort of agree with is not handling a snake that you've just received (even for a few photos which we all love). When I get a new snake, they are
tucked into a prepared cage & essentially regarded like a newborn- home from the hospital, monitored but nothing else. BUT I do believe he was shipped to you
sick or with a history of this...perhaps they insured him expecting to make a claim? (ie. not survive the trip) And honestly, I am suspicious of his mellow nature.
I hope I'm wrong but I wouldn't be shocked if the vet says he has a resistant infection. You received a sick snake.

I have no crystal ball, this is only my opinion...you did not cause this, and letting him drown in his mucus was not an option.

This is so disappointing to go from receiving this stunning creature to dealing with his medical emergency, so unfair to you AND Yafe...and lousy that the seller is
trying to blame you. (you should probably post this on FaunaClassifieds)

Gosh, not a good update at all ..

I agree with Deborah, the fact that he is already bubbling and having a hard time breathing, he probably had something brewing. Sure, the shipping and stress of a new home and being handled could have made it worse, but if he was healthy to begin with, it shouldn't have come on this fast and this bad !!

No-one can fault you for going to the Vet right away. With RI's that give the snake trouble breathing (open mouth, mucous, drooling, bubbling) you just don't have time to waste. They do not get better with changing temps, humidity and fooling around with nebulizers. You are already past that option.

Tufts is a great hospital, just make sure that they do not let the students/residents use your animal to "study". I took my horse to Auburn for colic surgery when she was 18 years old. Also a state of the art place and she got excellent care, but it is a learning hospital. $6500 later, but my mare is still alive today. Always demand that a experienced reptile vet is present AND doing the more complicated procedures.

As to the situation with the breeder, I'm not sure how much resolution you will get. Or what kind. I don't like when several people are involved (like it seems to be the case) and they go back and forth with one another on everything. It makes it difficult to have good communication when you don't even know who to talk to and they pass the buck between one another. At this point you seem committed to the snake and you are into it for a lot of money. That is commendable, but do take into account what Deborah said. This may very well end up being a ongoing issue. You might get it under control now, but it pops up again as soon as the snake is stressed for some reason. Even handling can bring it on, moving enclosures, etc etc. It may not happen, he may get treatment and stay fine for the rest of his life. But at this point, there are no guarantees.

I know temperament is important to you. And in part you chose (and like) Yafe because of his nature. Just keep in mind, animals that have illness brewing and are weaker because of it often display a mild temperament. That may very well change once they get better. I'm NOT saying he might possibly turn into a fire breathing dragon once he is better. Far from it. All I'm saying is he may have been so mild because he wasn't feeling well. Even if he does get livelier and possibly a bit more defensive at times, like most younger snakes do, you will easily be able to deal with that, like you have with any of your others. All I'm saying is this, don't base your decisions on his temperament alone. Keep in mind your other snakes, the possibility of spreading something around, and the possibility of this turning into a long-term issue. If you can handle all this and you want to see this through despite all possible scenarios, then follow your heart. He may just end up fine. If you aren't sure you want to take this on with the possibility of a long term issue, then I would look into trying to return the snake. I also understand that this would be very hard to do, with him being so sick and you already attached.

Not a great situation at all to be in, I understand and I feel terrible for you two !!!

I wish you and Yafe the best outcome possible.

My hunch is that they will not want him back, they'll only try to offer you a partial refund of his original price, & they're already saying they won't cover his
medical care so far since you didn't check with them first. I'm so sorry, this is truly lousy on their part, & as zina10 said, very commendable on yours.

I agree that if he was mucusy with bubbles that isn't something that shows up in 2 days. I think the trip to the emergency vet was overkill and unnecessary and I can see how the seller won't want to pay for those fees. I do think a vet trip was necessary, don't get me wrong... you obviously are very worried about your new charge. Usually bumping up the heat while waiting for the vet visit is rather standard from what I understand (haven't had to deal with an RI in almost 20 years *knock on wood*) but that's a moot point now since you already did the emergency situation. Yes emergency vets are very high priced (over $1500 on one of my cats before). I was a bit taken aback by so many photos over the first two days as that is a bit much for a brand new snake that should be left alone but I wouldn't think that would be the cause for the RI to progress so much and that would be a silly thing to blame this on IMO.

Was there no heat pack? That is something I do not understand! Especially with the long fedex delay, all of that is not good.

I hope the seller is willing to work with you and I hope for a fast recovery for Yafe.

I have to say, I agree with April as well. While a Vet visit was obviously in order, you could have probably waited until this morning. Emergency Vets charge a morbid amount of money just for walking in the door. However, sometimes it is a matter of life and death and it cannot wait.

In your case there is really nothing an Emergence Vet could or would do at night. They only perform life saving procedures right away. Diagnostics and tests beyond that aren't done until next day and sometimes get referred to the regular Vet. I do not think that the breeder will offer compensation for the high bill of a Emergency Vet. Honestly, I doubt they will offer much compensation period, but that remains to be seen.

All that said, I can see why you reacted the way you did. Seeing an animal in distress is not fun and our first instinct is to help, and to help NOW. So do not beat yourself up over this. You have to remember, when it is your OWN animal, you always react differently. It is easy for us to say what the rational thing would have been. I am the "colic specialist" when it comes to horses and when someone needs help with their horse I'm calm, helpful and do what is needed. But when it is my own horse? When she so much as lays down and looks funny? Panic settles in, my brain turns to mush and its hard to think clearly.

I also agree that handling should have been kept to absolute minimum aside from the first checkup. If you had to remove him for cleaning, I would have just put him into a dark bag, cleaned the cage and returned him. Also blacking out the sides and back of the enclosure, making it as calm/quiet and dark and non exposed as possible. But again, what you did did NOT cause this issue. So don't feel bad about that. A healthy animal would have been able to get over it. This is just some advice should you get another animal. Its always best to let them recover in complete privacy after shipping, aside from a quick peek couple times the day, making sure they are alright.

I'm not sure why there was no heat pack, what were the temps from where he came from ? The Hub at which he changed flights ? The destination ? If temps were mild, then a heat pack can cause more issues then it helps. However, it can get quite cold on those flights as well, I'm not sure if the animals shipped through Fedex are kept in a temperate area of the plane. Most likely he got quite cold at some part of the journey. Getting a bit cold is often viewed as safer then being overheated which quickly causes neurological damage. Usually the time in transit is kept so short (from afternoon to next morning) that its not an issue, but if there are delays, temps or heat-packs can make a big difference.

Again, don't beat yourself up, you didn't cause this. All you can do at this point is try to sit down, try to clear your head, and think it through very well on how you would like to proceed. Go through all the possibilities, go through all the maybe's and what if's. Decide what you would like to do. Whether the breeder or owner will help out, time will tell, but it isn't something I would count on at this point..

Good luck, my thoughts are with you during this difficult time.
Don't forget to take care of yourself's either, during this stressful time.

Guys, while I know we all want to help and provide input I really don’t see how throwing in your two cents on what vet he went to and when is helping this situation at all...

very easy to tell someone what to do when playing viewer from afar...

yes dave is my buddy and I feel terrible about all this but I think I would react the same way towards any member, doesn’t matter if I know them or not.

You also don’t know all the facts or logistics of the situation. Such as the fact that the only other trusted reptile vet is twice the amount of time away and on a path where Much construction is occurring so that option may have caused even more issue.

Im not going to go on an on but unless you have something worth sharing to help the situation sitting back and playing arm chair quarterback helps no one. The guy took pics of his brand new animal the day he got him home? Who doesn’t do that. If that’s a crime guilty as charged. What does the number of pictures have to do with anything. You can take 100 pics in 20 seconds. Not like the dude had ten costume changes and was all over the place with him. He removed the animal when it lit up its tank with feces. Had he left it alone maybe the snake would be worse off and in real bad shape or dead.

If he didn’t go to a vet he’d be getting bashed for that. Everyone’s a critic.

I say keep things constructive and positive or keep it to yourself.

Philly,

In case you are referring to me, I certainly didn't try to play armchair quarterback or criticize. I brought up the Emergency Vet in regards to the breeder most likely not being willing to cover the emergency fee, as they will claim it wasn't a life/death situation. However, imho they should pay what the usual cost of a vet visit would be in such a case!

I also brought it up because Tufts is a learning hospital. Much like the one I used for my horse (Auburn). They have state of the art equipment, they are staffed around the clock. They are a expensive BUT absolutely excellent choice. However, from my own experience it is important to insist (through constant communication) that all of the more complicated procedures are not only supervised but performed by the experienced and practiced Veterinarian on duty. They often only supervise while letting the students practice. After all, that is how they learn. Daksi did ask for that, but since there is different staff at different times, and it is usually quite busy there, it helps to be in constant contact and to remind them of your requests a couple of times the day. This wasn't meant to be critical, but rather to give a heads up.

As for the handling, I don't feel anyone blamed Daksi for anything. No-one said anything he did could have caused that poor boy to get so sick, so quick. But that its best to keep handling to an absolute minimum after shipping, while checking in on the animal and performing bare necessities, of course.

I'll say again, I wish only the best for Yafe and his owners and that this can get resolved to their satisfaction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phillydubs

..... Everyone’s a critic. I say keep things constructive and positive or keep it to yourself.

---

I think that we all have been both sympathetic & constructive...no one is "bashing" anyone here & your suggestion that we are is not helping either. It's horrible to see
a snake gasping to breathe...I don't blame Dave for wanting immediate help, & who knows what we'd have done in his shoes? As you said, he chose the quickest help.

NO one said that taking photos "caused" the RI, & no, NOT "everyone" does that but it's certainly encouraged on forums like this. That doesn't make it a "best practice".
The seller brought that up and I commented about the issue because it gives the seller "ammunition" to deflect blame from himself (as it appears he is trying to do). We
all need to think about that when we buy online, so by reading this thread maybe others will be forewarned that it can backfire in a similar situation.

The guaranteed way not to have comments about a sad situation like this is to not put it online...when you do, comments are going to happen, & some you'll like more
than others, but this is a bit like a family here and the idea is to learn from each other's experiences. I can only imagine what a horrible night it's been for Dave, Katie
and Yafe most of all. My sincere hope is for a full recovery & better cooperation from the seller.

Philly, I don't know if you were addressing me; I was trying to offer an outside perspective regarding the seller's push back since it appears Dave is about to get into a back and forth with the seller. Apologies if my opinion was unwelcome but this is a public forum after-all. I felt I was constructive and do wish the best for the snake's recovery.

First, I did get another response from the breeder. Again, posted here Verbatim.

Hi David,

when you have had the time to get some sleep and relax a bit, please read my email again. I am sitting here a couple thousand miles away and all I can do at this point is asking you questions and letting you know what I would do back here in Germany if it was me. My questions were not supposed to attack you or suggest you are doing things wrong.
My questions were supposed to understand the situation and help to make it better. This is also not supposed to be a pissing match about who is keeping reptiles for how long or similar. I have bred thousands of Carpet Pythons and currently have 852 here around me, but that has nothing to do with your situation. I am not better because I have more Carpets or anything like that. All I can say is that I have never ever seen something like what you describe, a RI that would escalate so quickly. That being said, it doesn’t mean that this is not possible or happening to you right now. I will need to talk to XXXX and find out what his impression on the snake was when it left the shop and also find out why he decided to not use a heat pack in this case.
I have seen mucus that was caused by bedding or similar stuck in their mouth. I have seen snakes with an RI with mucus and bubbles and they were ok without treatment. That is why I was suggesting to leave it alone and see what’s going on, if its severe or not.
Again, I am thousands of miles away and cannot decide if it’s bad or not, I haven’t seen the snake in person. That’s why I am asking questions and suggesting things. A treatment like you described would costs anything between 100-200 USD here in Germany. I know that vets/docs in general are CRAZY expensive in the U.S.
so it absolutely makes sense to double check if the vet is needed or not. You say it is, so I am sure it was the right decision now.

If something went wrong on our side, what I don’t know at this point, we will have to find a solution to make up for it. But you need to understand my position and why I have to ask questions, ask for pics and all that stuff. I will need documentation including pics of the animals being treated and also documents from the vet.
If this whole thing goes wrong and the animal dies, I will need pics or a video of the dead snake. Let’s hope this does not happen! But you have to understand that I can’t send refunds or anything just because a customer says a snake is sick or dead.
I don´t know you, I have not seen the animal for a while and all I can do is read and answer your emails.

Again, I am very sorry to hear this and definitely want to help you, so please let me know when you hear back from the clinic, as I will as soon as I have talked to Adam.

Thanks so far and have a good night now!

I appreciate everyone's feedback.

To be clear, aside from the initial handling the night I got him to ensure he was alive and doing ok, etc., I took him out the next only because he crapped and I wanted to clean it. He came out yesterday because he didn't sound good and had his head up agains the tank wall trying to get comfortable. It was obvious he was sick.

Regarding ER vet pricing. It was an extra $180 to show up the emergency vet. The costs for the tests and treatment were similar to what I would pay at my exotics vet 2 hours from my house. Not many options here.

I believe you guys are not blaming me, and agree that handling too much when an animal arrives is silly. However, given the circumstances and my concerns, I feel if I had just "left him alone" he might not be here in the future.

Regarding temperament, Zina10, I hope he stays chill as can be. He has supposedly been like that for a while. However, who knows.

Deborah, I have the same concerns. However, I have him now and I cannot send him back in this condition, in good conscience anyway. I am at a loss and don't know what to do frankly. However, I feel I need to help him get better now.

I will keep everyone in the loop and I am waiting to here back from the vet this afternoon.

Thank you again.

David

P.S. Phillydubs is my buddy and has been very close to me and the situation. He's a good guy and is trying to protect me. I can see how the comments could be misconstrued and also that you are all trying to be constructively critical and help others learn from this experience.

Yafe is home and diagnosed with a bacterial RI, but we will know 100% when the culture comes back in 5-7 days.

In the meantime, he is to get 10 doses of Ceftazidime, 2.4ml, inter muscular injection, over the next 30 days. One every three days. He had his first tonight, with me holding him and Katie administering the injection. Katie did great and so did Yafe.

I am confident we will get him back on track ASAP. No food, no (unnecessary) handling, etc. until he is better. I can offer food in 2 weeks, or sooner, if he's feeling better. However, regardless, he gets the medicine for 30 days unless the culture shows he needs a different antibiotic or an anti-fungal instead, or in addition to.

He is also staying on strict quarantine, as he was, for the next 90 days, as planned. He is handled, injected, fed, etc. last and has his own hook, tongs, hides, etc. There is no interaction between him, or his tools, with any other animal in the house. As before. Additionally, clothes will be changed if for some reason, another animal needs to be handled/touched, etc. after exposure to Yafe.

The vet clarified a few things.

1. She said he could have gotten sick from the stressful trip. However, she was upset he was shipped without a heat pack and that there was a delay. Both likely contributed. She is open to the idea he was not well when shipped, but is not convinced that was the case and has no way to prove it, so no pointing fingers.

2. She unequivocally said, NOTHING I DID CAUSED THIS. I described when the symptoms came on and how fast and what I had done RE handling, etc. She says I am 100% not to blame. She thinks it's good I brought him in when I did.

The only other things bothering me is the flailing around and sudden and jerky movements from him. After the shot, I went to move him back to his tank and he exhibited this behavior again. He did not do it on day one. He did on days 2 and 3 and I attributed it to him being very uncomfortable. I know Carpet's can have neurological issues, but usually it's the Jaguars. He supposedly had no issues of that type. I am assuming it will clear up as he feels better, but I am anxious about that.


Finally,

I appreciate everyone's support here. I am aware of the "hindsight" comments posted here (not pointing fingers, but addressing what Phillydubs was trying to combat). I think they serve a purpose for other keepers and for another perspective on a go forward basis. I do not take offense and think people were worried and doing their best to be helpful (I've known many of you for a long time now and understand your good intentions; your track records speak for themselves). I have kept reptiles for over 20 years and this was exceptionally worrisome. Everyone I know jokes about how meticulous I am with temps, humidity, cleanliness, etc. I don't know how else to keep reptiles and having one get that sick, that fast, scared me. Think of this from my perspective, being a caring reptile owner, and not wanting to see an animal suffer, or get worse.

For what's worth, I have zero regrets, even I get stuck with the bill. If Yafe recovers and is a happy, healthy, snake for a long time and has a great life with me and Katie, I will be incredibly happy with how this situation was handled.

I would also appreciate the recognition that I am big contributor on this site and a) do my best to help all keepers in need and b) still ask questions after years of reptile keeping because there is always more to learn/know.

Poor Yafe...so many injections...but he's in great hands, so he wouldn't dare stay sick. ;) (I hope!) Your prompt attention taking him to the vet was :gj:

I know & agree with your vet, nothing you did caused this, & also that it's impossible to prove that he was already ill when he was shipped, but certainly the journey
(without heat) didn't help. I hope you some get satisfaction from the seller, the 2nd communication sounded much better than the first, but it remains to be seen.

I'd be really concerned about the flailing, jerky movements he does too...I hope that's self-limiting with his infection but only time will tell. We're all pulling for Yafe-
he didn't deserve this & neither did you.

I think you are right in not having any regrets. Money is just money, especially when we have made the commitment to a living animal. I bought a $1000 dollar emerald tree boa from an expo, only to have it die within 1 week (I will forever blame myself for this one as I did not do enough for it.) I commend you on your immediate rise to action. Your vet has given you all the information you need and you sound VERY committed to his recovery. Do not doubt yourself one bit.

I have noticed your name and your effort put into each post, and I thank you for your contributions here. I am a newish member, and am forever grateful for all the information shared here. This is site is mildly representative of how the hobby should be. However, I do not think we should be discouraging any type of commentary or discussion unless it's obviously inappropriate.

I wish your family the best of luck with Yafe's recovery, and will continue to follow along.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PiperPython

I think you are right in not having any regrets. Money is just money, especially when we have made the commitment to a living animal. I bought a $1000 dollar emerald tree boa from an expo, only to have it die within 1 week (I will forever blame myself for this one as I did not do enough for it.) I commend you on your immediate rise to action. Your vet has given you all the information you need and you sound VERY committed to his recovery. Do not doubt yourself one bit.

I have noticed your name and your effort put into each post, and I thank you for your contributions here. I am a newish member, and am forever grateful for all the information shared here. This is site is mildly representative of how the hobby should be. However, I do not think we should be discouraging any type of commentary or discussion unless it's obviously inappropriate.

I wish your family the best of luck with Yafe's recovery, and will continue to follow along.

---

Thank you so much for all the kind words. I am glad my contributions have been meaningful to you. I also really appreciate the well wishes. Yafe does as well.

To be clear on my previous post, I agree. I am not upset or anything like that with ANY contributions made to this thread. I think they all serve a purpose.

My point was merely that it can be easy to second guess anyone's decisions, but imagine yourself in that person's shoes as well. I may be in Finance, but I am huge believer in empathy and trying to understand how someone is feeling in a situation, not necessarily how you feel, or would feel in that situation.

Again, thank you PiperPython, and everyone who has/will contribute to this thread. It is ALL very much appreciated.

I haven't gotten to read the whole thread yet but I hope Yafe makes a quick recovery. Welcome to the world of carpets! You picked out a nice bright looking snake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Poor Yafe...so many injections...but he's in great hands, so he wouldn't dare stay sick. ;) (I hope!) Your prompt attention taking him to the vet was :gj:

I know & agree with your vet, nothing you did caused this, & also that it's impossible to prove that he was already ill when he was shipped, but certainly the journey
(without heat) didn't help. I hope you some get satisfaction from the seller, the 2nd communication sounded much better than the first, but it remains to be seen.

I'd be really concerned about the flailing, jerky movements he does too...I hope that's self-limiting with his infection but only time will tell. We're all pulling for Yafe-
he didn't deserve this & neither did you.

---

Bogertophis,

Thank you for the kind words.

I too am concerned about the movements. I emailed both the breeder and the vet for clarification and their opinions. I am also hoping it's limited to the infection as he did not (appear) to exhibit the behavior, certainly to the level it is now, on the evening we unpacked him.

I also emailed the breeder last night and asked for a compromise.

I said either he should submit a claim to fedex for the insurance on the package since it was delayed, and pay for the vet. Or, I offered to eat the cost of the emergency visit ($180) and the cost of the overnight stay ($52), but have him pay the remaining $341 for diagnosis and treatment. I would also "eat" the time spent and the angst and having to give shots over a month, etc. However, I said if meds need to change, he doesn't get better, and/or neurological type symptoms get worse or don't disappear with the infection, we will be talking.

I should point out that the hospital quoted $800-$1,000 with the latter being a worse case scenario, but the total came to $573 instead. That's a huge relief and it's nice to know the hospital is honest.

I thought that was a fair compromise. I also pointed out that when I spoke to his US Rep, who I talked to and purchased Yafe from, he said to go to the vet and keep him in the loop. I told him I was going to the ER Vet as well. Very inconsistent message.

Further, I told him the doctor said the delay, but ALSO, the lack of a heat pack, contributed to this. I therefore felt my "compromise" offer to him was exceptionally fair.

Quick Update:

First, Yafe spent the entire day curled up above the top lock for his doors (pictures below). There is a little ledge there he wedged himself onto and between that and squeezing in between it and the ceiling of the tank, and wrapping his tail around the lock mechanism, I guess he was comfortable. It's 80F in that spot, and I'd like him on the 90F branch, or the 90F UTH, but that's his decision. No noticeable bubbles today, but I am leaving him completely alone until Monday night when he needs another injection.

I don't think the antibiotics would have kicked in yet, and the vet said I probably wouldn't notice any improvement until the 2nd or 3rd injection, or after, but it's not impossible it happens sooner. If this is the correct medicine (90% chance), he could start improving quickly. That's my hope, but I am not getting too excited yet. I am glad he had the energy to climb up there today.

Secondly, I got an email back from the breeder. He said he thought my offer/compromise was very reasonable, but wants to discuss Monday (he's traveling this weekend) and work out what happens if he needs more/different medicine, this first bout of antibiotics doesn't fix this, etc. He also said he would discuss the neurological symptoms I mentioned with me. I had mentioned in the email that prompted this response, that he might want to wait until Yafe is done with treatment and we can make a good assessment of him, before reimbursing me.

I also emailed the vet about the neurological symptoms. She is back Monday, so I should hear from both on Monday. I am pretty confident I can cure the RI. So far so good between me and Katie RE injections and I know my husbandry is, and will continue to be, dialed in.

My concern, as mentioned, is the odd movements. If this stress brought out a bigger issue, I am not sure what to do. However, I don't want to get ahead of myself, and just hoping the odd movements were caused by him being uncomfortable and/or temporary neurological issues brought on by stress.

Either way, the breeder appreciated my "olive branch" and said he will work with me. He brought up discussing "what ifs" in this email, while I had merely touched on it in the previous email. I think we are getting on the same page, and he also realizes, and has admitted, that Yafe should not have been sent without a heat pack.

It is clear that neither of us want Yafe to suffer and he's stopped second guessing me. I asked him to look at it from my perspective and realize I am not a newbie. Something was very wrong here. I also have other animals in the house to worry about (although Yafe is on strict quarantine). I acted as quickly and in the best way I could. Again, I have zero regrets.

I'll update more when I know more, probably Monday evening after his injection, and I've heard from the vet and the breeder again.

[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/dI2AstG.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/U87XcXa.jpg[/IMG]

I think we tend to see more 'bubbles' when a snake is handled as opposed to sitting quietly on their own, but I HOPE he's already improving. :please:

I think your suggested compromise was very fair too, though I was thinking the same thing, that it's best to wait a little while to see where all this is going-
it's really too soon to know for sure, but at least the latest communication from the seller is a good sign. Especially admitting they blew it on the heat pack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I think we tend to see more 'bubbles' when a snake is handled as opposed to sitting quietly on their own, but I HOPE he's already improving. :please:

I think your suggested compromise was very fair too, though I was thinking the same thing, that it's best to wait a little while to see where all this is going-
it's really too soon to know for sure, but at least the latest communication from the seller is a good sign. Especially admitting they blew it on the heat pack.

---

Thanks Bogertophis.

I totally understand RE bubbles. I also 100% agree things are moving in the right direction with the seller and that there needs to room for the "what ifs." However, I think we both understand that.

However, Yafe had his head flat most of the day. Two days ago his neck was extended upward against the glass most of the afternoon. Again, I could be reading into things. However, I am hoping things are already improving. If not, I thank him for at least making me feel a little better today because he doesn't seem as uncomfortable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dakski

...
However, Yafe had his head flat most of the day. Two days ago his neck was extended upward against the glass most of the afternoon. Again, I could be reading into things. However, I am hoping things are already improving. If not, I thank him for at least making me feel a little better today because he doesn't seem as uncomfortable.

---

I think you're reading that right. :please: I doubt that he's had any acting classes...;)

I had Vicky my boa puke up water on me after i picked her up after she drank a bunch of water years ago lol. Not a fun experience haha.

Anyways, most breeders will not pay for vet expenses. That is rather standard. Sounds like this breeder is going to work with you so that is a plus but i would not expect any huge compensation. The main reason is once the snake leaves the breeder's hand, he has no control over it anymore so you cant lay sole blame to him. And FedEx and UPS as we all know, dont give a squat about the packages be it live or otherwise.

As for no heat pack, i have had lots of reptiles shipped to me with and without heat packs. It mostly boils down to you and the breeder getting in touch via phone or text and checking the weather forecast for your area and his on the days of shipment. The problem is overheating a reptile will kill it or damage it much faster than being too cool for a day or two. And this is especially true of baby snakes who can heat up very quickly especially in a little 7x7x7 box. When i got Alex, he was held over for two days in Indiana. The breeder and I talked during the whole process from start to finish and when we both compared weather forecasts and temps, we felt a heat pack was a good idea but he placed a piece of styrofoam between the pack and the snake so it would diffuse the heat so the snake wouldnt overheat.

As for the RI, like mentioned, if it was bubbling at day two, i tend to think that the snake already had something going on especially if he was stargazing on day two.

Not sure who the breeder was but with so many in the 'cookie jar' with from what it sounds like 2 people at least on emails, I would be leary. I deal with small time breeders who generally will take better care of their animals and are much easier to deal with as far as getting responses and decisions go. There is no 'chain of command'. It's you directly dealing with the breeder. Like my little red no GTP, I got him from Justin Wilbanks who is a recreational breeder that just loves GTPs. He isnt in it for the money so his focus is the animals themselves and he can follow and check up on every animal he ships and follows up. He asks me for photos of Alex and still talks to me and actually wants to buy Alex back if he turns out like dad lol.

Anyways, good luck with the snake and it should go ok.


Oh and the breeder did have good advice for early RI symptoms. Usually you can bump up the temps and humidity for a tropical snake and it will help their immune system kick into overdrive to fight the RI. Same thing with meds, be sure to bump the temps up a few degrees so it speeds up the snakes metabolism to get the medicine coursing through him. But in your case, with the bubbles and it sounding like advanced RI, a vet is a must.