Swallowing rat while rat is alive..

Hello,

So I just brought a new baby bumblebee ball python. She is about 103 grams and was hatched on late June. She is already eating a rat fuzzy. The breeder I bought it from was feeding live to his snakes so I got live so I know she eats in the new enclosure. I am planning to switch to f/t next feeding.
Anyways, like the title states, she struck at the fuzzy rat and did not kill it and started swallowing the rat. I saw her strick under the hide so I couldn't really see what was happening until she came out of the hide while struggling to swallow live rat. Rat was squeaking and was trying to get out of snake's mouth but she kept swallowing it back... I searched it and people say it is due to small prey size but it was appropriate size for her.. Why does this happen? Is she not use to hunting? I believe she had 3 feedings before. I know it could be dangerous so what should I watch for? I can't see anything from outside, so I have no idea what the sign of danger would be for swallowing live prey.

Thank you.

Wow, that's also happened with one of my past ball pythons who only ate live! It was pretty horrifying. Sometimes they're just ravenous and it happens :\

I wouldn't try to pull it back out of the snake's mouth, because that's not natural for the snake and can damage its teeth. The snake will either spit it back out and kill it again on its own, or the rat will suffocate in a minute anyway while in the snake's throat.

It didn’t coil or wrap at all?

did you weigh the prey prior ?

i doubt its an issue other than being an unpleasant sound etc.

but as statted above just let the snake be as it eats at that point what’s done is done

as long as you prepare ft rats correct a healthy snake shouldn’t have much issue taking it. Of course there are notorious problem feeders but I almost think it seems that way cause all we hear is my snake won’t eat... yet no one is posting eberytime hey my snake ate again.

It’s like the news we get used to hearing all the bad ish people think there is no good out there. There is. It’s just not reported with such gusto

Switch to frozen thawed as soon as possible mate. It's a complete myth that some snakes will only feed on live - here in the UK live feeding is illegal so all of our snakes feed on f/t with no problem at all. No family with a BP feeds live here at all because it's not culturally acceptable. It's always possible to switch them over to f/t, you just have to use certain techniques. Things such as braining, following a live feeder with f/t etc.

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Aside from being tough to watch and hear, I wouldn't worry about it.

FYI, pinky and fuzzy mice AND rats have their eyes still closed and will NOT bite back, though they may struggle to get away. And since this snake was fed live
before, the snake already knows there is no need to constrict it first. Many snakes do not bother to kill such prey first as it takes more time* and isn't necessary*.

*Remember that snakes follow their instincts to stay alive in the "real world"- they are very vulnerable to other predators while they are swallowing a meal, so the
less time they take to do that, the safer that meal is for them. It takes a while to constrict a pinky or fuzzy, time & effort wasted that exposes the snake to more
danger to themselves, so when they can do so, they just gulp them down. It's actually normal.

Obviously, when a snake is used to eating this way & then you bump up the size to a hopper (eyes open) the snake who doesn't constrict out of habit will get hurt! The "lucky ones" get seen & treated by a vet for their resulting injuries... You really should never feed live prey with eyes open to a snake, and beyond
kick-starting the appetite of neonates, hatchlings or wild-caught snakes, it's avoidable.

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Originally Posted by Valyrian

Switch to frozen thawed as soon as possible mate. It's a complete myth that some snakes will only feed on live - here in the UK live feeding is illegal so all of our snakes feed on f/t with no problem at all. No family with a BP feeds live here at all because it's not culturally acceptable. It's always possible to switch them over to f/t, you just have to use certain techniques. Things such as braining, following a live feeder with f/t etc.

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I beg to differ, I have an adult female bp that went from eating ft to only accepting live. I tried to get her to eat ft again and she refused food for 8 months until I offered live, took it in an instant. I suppose I could have tried ft another 8 months, but honestly I got sick of watching her lose weight.

I certainly prefer ft for convenience and safety, but there are snakes that will only take live, ball pythons in particular it seems.

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Originally Posted by Alter-Echo

I beg to differ, I have an adult female bp that went from eating ft to only accepting live. I tried to get her to eat ft again and she refused food for 8 months until I offered live, took it in an instant. I suppose I could have tried ft another 8 months, but honestly I got sick of watching her lose weight.

I certainly prefer ft for convenience and safety, but there are snakes that will only take live, ball pythons in particular it seems.

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I don't know what to tell you. It's a fact that people don't do that in the UK, yet we have thousands of Ball Pythons that successfully eat frozen thawed.

They're all the same species so the only other reason I can think this is the case is that our breeders start them off on frozen thawed whereas in America they must start them on live in some cases.

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Originally Posted by Valyrian

Switch to frozen thawed as soon as possible mate. It's a complete myth that some snakes will only feed on live - here in the UK live feeding is illegal so all of our snakes feed on f/t with no problem at all. No family with a BP feeds live here at all because it's not culturally acceptable. It's always possible to switch them over to f/t, you just have to use certain techniques. Things such as braining, following a live feeder with f/t etc.

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I mean, I am not offering live because I want to feed live haha. She was on live so I wanted to make sure in a new environment, she would take what she normally did. I feed others f/t, even switched one from live to f/t, took 5 months but yea.
I would be giving f/t from now on.

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Originally Posted by Valyrian

I don't know what to tell you. It's a fact that people don't do that in the UK, yet we have thousands of Ball Pythons that successfully eat frozen thawed.

They're all the same species so the only other reason I can think this is the case is that our breeders start them off on frozen thawed whereas in America they must start them on live in some cases.

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Maybe, or maybe they feed live in secret, and just don't say anything about it because... well, it's illegal. Lol

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Originally Posted by Valyrian

Switch to frozen thawed as soon as possible mate. It's a complete myth that some snakes will only feed on live - here in the UK live feeding is illegal so all of our snakes feed on f/t with no problem at all. No family with a BP feeds live here at all because it's not culturally acceptable. It's always possible to switch them over to f/t, you just have to use certain techniques. Things such as braining, following a live feeder with f/t etc.

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The unfortunate difference here is that since live isn't illegal, many BP's were fed live throughout their life until they are adults, making it even more difficult or impossible to transition them to f/t. My female was 3 years old when I got her and was on live her entire life. She wouldn't switch over, probably unless I didn't feed her for a year or starved her.

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Originally Posted by Alter-Echo

Maybe, or maybe they feed live in secret, and just don't say anything about it because... well, it's illegal. Lol

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Well, I've raised enough snakes (rosy boas, BPs & various colubrids) to vouch for the instincts that snakes have for their survival that only respond to live food.

They LEARN to take f/t, most of them, sooner or later, but they are born or hatch wanting only what they are supposed to find in nature. When you wiggle a dead
pinky with tongs, well, you can fool some of the snakes some of the time...but not all of the snakes, all of the time. I only wish it was that easy...& while I prefer
humane treatment of all animals, I put the needs of my snakes first. They cannot help wanting what they want.

Also, for any of you that find it totally abhorrent to feed a live pinky or live fuzzy to a snake a few times to get them started, I have to ask: have any of you ever
raised mice (& rats & hamsters) for any length of time? Because I've been doing so literally for decades, and you should know that when rodents don't feel like
being parents* they kill their babies in a far more gruesome way than does a snake that swallows them whole...especially mice. *This happens without any issues of
overcrowding or food shortages etc. It's not as if they make clean kills either- I find babies still alive after being chewed up. So please, no big guilt trips for a few live
pinkies or fuzzies being fed to start a snake. It's just nature's plan.

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Originally Posted by Alter-Echo

Maybe, or maybe they feed live in secret, and just don't say anything about it because... well, it's illegal. Lol

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Trust me when I say British parents don't go out to buy little Timmy a live mouse to feed his Ball Python [emoji23]🤣

It may sound strange to you guys but it's just not done here.

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I guess if you're adament some snakes will only eat live then the only other possibility is that snakes that don't take frozen thawed are culled. You'd have to ask a UK breeder if that's the case.

All I know is that in no pet store and on no website will you ever find a snake sold as eating live in the UK.

Nor are live vertebrates sold as feeders.

Again, it might sound strange to you but it's not something that's done here.

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Originally Posted by Valyrian

...All I know is that in no pet store and on no website will you ever find a snake sold as eating live in the UK.

Nor are live vertebrates sold as feeders....

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It's commendable in that the only snakes being sold are already eating reliably on readily available (frozen) food. You can't rely on buyers (especially new those new
to keeping snakes) to get them switched over successfully. It's not an accurate portrayal of nature though, & I'm not so sure about what goes on in the "back room"
prior to the snakes being sold. It just suggests to me that snakes aren't sold "right out of the egg" as they often are here, & that would truly improve their survival
odds. I'm also willing to bet that there's an "underground" market for live feeders by those who raise rodents. Few people would want to "cull snakes" that make them
so much more money than a few mice. Nor would "culling" snakes that refuse f/t make any sense if it's all about loving animals...:confusd:

I have a 3000 gram Granite female that will only eat live.
Its been almost a year since I quit breeding rodents and that long since she has eaten.
Only lost about 150 grams so we will see who can hold out longer.
Not all snakes will switch so it might be coming time to home her to someone that breeds feeders.......
I also quit breeding my snakes since f/t has inconsistency with their feedings.
Y'all do a lot of things different over the pond, there is a reason the USA came about.

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Originally Posted by Valyrian

I guess if you're adament some snakes will only eat live then the only other possibility is that snakes that don't take frozen thawed are culled. You'd have to ask a UK breeder if that's the case.

All I know is that in no pet store and on no website will you ever find a snake sold as eating live in the UK.

Nor are live vertebrates sold as feeders.

Again, it might sound strange to you but it's not something that's done here.

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I've still to encounter a snake who won't eat thawed frozen , as long as you feed in the evening and wait until they're nice and settled under the hide , dangle a WARM mouse at the entrance and don't blink. :)


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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I've still to encounter a snake who won't eat thawed frozen , as long as you feed in the evening and wait until they're nice and settled under the hide , dangle a WARM mouse at the entrance and don't blink. :)


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I have a feeling that we could take up a "collection" & send you some...;)

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I've still to encounter a snake who won't eat thawed frozen , as long as you feed in the evening and wait until they're nice and settled under the hide , dangle a WARM mouse at the entrance and don't blink. :)


.


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Not sure why my comment wasn't acknowledged, but like I said, the difference is that since live is illegal in the UK, of course it will be very rare to see snakes who only eat live. If BP's are truly only started on f/t from the egg, then of course it'll be very easy to keep all snakes in the UK on f/t. It's unlike here, where ball pythons are almost always started on live, and some kept on live for years of their life, since many breeders also breed feeders and they don't bother switching them over when they can just offer live food from their rack- that's what makes it hard to switch, and that's why you'll find many more snakes who are impossible to switch here and not there.

People from the UK can say all they want: "I've never seen a snake only eat live". I mean... of course! You haven't been in the hobby in the states. Lol

Though I also believe Bogertophis that there are probably some people feeding their snakes live underground.

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

Not sure why my comment wasn't acknowledged, but like I said, the difference is that since live is illegal in the UK, of course it will be very rare to see snakes who only eat live. If BP's are truly only started on f/t from the egg, then of course it'll be very easy to keep all snakes in the UK on f/t. It's unlike here, where ball pythons are almost always started on live, and some kept on live for years of their life, since many breeders also breed feeders and they don't bother switching them over when they can just offer live food from their rack- that's what makes it hard to switch, and that's why you'll find many more snakes who are impossible to switch here and not there.

People from the UK can say all they want: "I've never seen a snake only eat live". I mean... of course! You haven't been in the hobby in the states. Lol

Though I also believe Bogertophis that there are probably some people feeding their snakes live underground.

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Fair comments .. I don't actively campaign against feeding live in this forum - I soon realised that things were simply done differently in the states from the UK


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It is not illegal to feed live prey in the UK.. :P

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Originally Posted by John1982

It is not illegal to feed live prey in the UK.. :P

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Omg really, why does everyone from the UK say it is then? LOL

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Originally Posted by John1982

It is not illegal to feed live prey in the UK.. :P

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True. It's more complicated than that but for ease of discussion I said it was illegal.

Basically, you can feed live if it's a last resort and under the direction of a veterinarian. However, you cannot sell animals listed as being fed on live prey.

So for example, you cannot legally feed live just because you enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Valyrian

True. It's more complicated than that but for ease of discussion I said it was illegal.

Basically, you can feed live if it's a last resort and under the direction of a veterinarian. However, you cannot sell animals listed as being fed on live prey.

So for example, you cannot legally feed live just because you enjoy it.

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"Ease of discussion", you mean using the word "legal" to push the OP to feed f/t. Feeding as a last resort is not even remotely illegal... lol

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

"Ease of discussion", you mean using the word "legal" to push the OP to feed f/t. Feeding as a last resort is not even remotely illegal... lol

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I think most reasonable people would conclude that feeding frozen thawed is more responsible than feeding live for a myriad of reasons that have been discussed in the reptile community ad nauseum.

If you disagree then that's fair enough as that's your right, just as it's my right to put forth my opinion.

And it is illegal if not recommended by a medical professional.

In just the same way that taking Opiods in the UK is illegal unless prescribed by a medical professional.

Not sure how that's difficult to understand but that comparison should help.

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I'm sure some of the royals sold in pet shops in the UK were at least started on live prey. From my limited understanding, the whole "it's illegal" standpoint folks take stems from their interpretation of the animal welfare act. Yes, protecting the animal from unnecessary pain and suffering is one of the "needs" listed under the act. Equally listed is the need for a suitable diet. If the snake doesn't feed on f/t, how long do you wait before you're breaking the law by withholding food that it would gladly accept? My personal interpretation(if I were living in the UK) would be that as soon as the animal started to look noticeably thinner, it would be time for live or assist. But then, can you even assist feed in the UK if you haven't attempted live food first? It seems that assisting would be causing unnecessary "suffering", again open to interpretation, if you hadn't at least attempted live first.. Folks need to remember that this law wasn't set to only protect the "prey", the "predator" is also subject. It's one big grey area and, to my knowledge, nobody has been successfully prosecuted for feeding live prey.

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(2)For the purposes of this Act, an animal's needs shall be taken to include—
(a)its need for a suitable environment,
(b)its need for a suitable diet,
(c)its need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns,
(d)any need it has to be housed with, or apart from, other animals, and
(e)its need to be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease.

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https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/45/contents

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Originally Posted by John1982

I'm sure some of the royals sold in pet shops in the UK were at least started on live prey. From my limited understanding, the whole "it's illegal" standpoint folks take stems from their interpretation of the animal welfare act. Yes, protecting the animal from unnecessary pain and suffering is one of the "needs" listed under the act. Equally listed is the need for a suitable diet. If the snake doesn't feed on f/t, how long do you wait before you're breaking the law by withholding food that it would gladly accept? My personal interpretation(if I were living in the UK) would be that as soon as the animal started to look noticeably thinner, it would be time for live or assist. But then, can you even assist feed in the UK if you haven't attempted live food first? It seems that assisting would be causing unnecessary "suffering", again open to interpretation, if you hadn't at least attempted live first.. Folks need to remember that this law wasn't set to only protect the "prey", the "predator" is also subject. It's one big grey area and, to my knowledge, nobody has been successfully prosecuted for feeding live prey.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/45/contents

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That's a good link, cheers. I'm out anyway, this redshepherd person is getting too much in their feelings [emoji23]

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Originally Posted by Valyrian

That's a good link, cheers. I'm out anyway, this redshepherd person is getting too much in their feelings [emoji23]

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What? I don't even feed live to my current snakes LOL. Just trying to clarify everything.

(2)For the purposes of this Act, an animal's needs shall be taken to include—
(a)its need for a suitable environment,
(b)its need for a suitable diet,
(c)its need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns,
(d)any need it has to be housed with, or apart from, other animals, and
(e)its need to be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/45/contents

I think all of this is very well-intended but completely subject to interpretation: wouldn't "(c)...to exhibit normal behaviour patterns" include feeding as it would
in nature? ie. live? And the "(e) need to be protected from...suffering...& disease" would surely preclude starving your snake that won't eat f/t?

As I've said many times, I'm ALL FOR feeding pre-killed (fresh or f/t) for safety & humane considerations, but another difference is that here in the U.S. we have
many more species of native snakes. For someone like me, who used to be involved with rescue/relocation of native snakes (most often rattlesnakes), well you just
can't feed them dead food like "room service" and then send them back outside. A meal (or several) at my house meant they had the strength (energy) to have a
better chance of survival when relocated; snakes in the desert are typically struggling with survival to begin with, so food & hydration goes a long way to help
them stay alive. You'd better believe I fed them live, with no regrets. But any that weren't healthy enough to go outside, or that had to stay captive for other reasons
(too long in captivity-exposure to exotics) all got switched to dead prey, & pretty easily.

I know there are differences of perspective in this area of keeping snakes...I think this is actually a good area for discussion. You can find cruel people everywhere,
those who take a perverse pleasure in watching a snake kill a rodent, but happily that's not most of us. I think most of us just want the best for our animals.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I think all of this is very well-intended but completely subject to interpretation: wouldn't "(c)...to exhibit normal behaviour patterns" include feeding as it would
in nature? ie. live? And the "(e) need to be protected from...suffering...& disease" would surely preclude starving your snake that won't eat f/t

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Exactly, why I mentioned that nobody has been successfully prosecuted for breaking the law by feeding live. Until that happens, and a precedent is set, interpretation is king - within reason.

I wasn't going to post it because I didn't want to start the debate, but since it's started there's another good thread on the UK forums where someone emailed a higher up (Defras) and it was determined to be "not strictly illegal but there's a chance you could be charged under the animal welfare act under the right conditions." So, it's still a grey area, entirely open to interpretation, and probably taken on a case by case basis. Here's the link, because it too is an interesting read :)

https://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru.../topics/815209

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

Omg really, why does everyone from the UK say it is then? LOL

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Because that is what animal right activists have manage to convince people off. :rolleyes: and like any good myth it gets perpetuated from one person to another and if you repeat it over and over on the internet than it must be true :rofl:

What the law in the UK boils down to is this this practice is currently legal so long as not practiced in a public place. Under the 1911 Act it is not illegal to feed a live vertebrate to another unless you cause it unnecessary suffering.

Now to come back on topic instead of trying to tell OP what HE should feed HIS animal, I will answer his question.

When they eat live literally it is something pretty rare with BP at least compared to colubrids, it usually occurs with young inexperienced animala or if the prey is too small making it hard or impossible to constrict. Nothing alarming they grow out of it.

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Originally Posted by Spoons

I wasn't going to post it because I didn't want to start the debate, but since it's started there's another good thread on the UK forums where someone emailed a higher up (Defras) and it was determined to be "not strictly illegal but there's a chance you could be charged under the animal welfare act under the right conditions." So, it's still a grey area, entirely open to interpretation, and probably taken on a case by case basis. Here's the link, because it too is an interesting read :)

https://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru.../topics/815209

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I think I'd avoid filming any live feedings & posting them for others to see & misinterpret, as that seems to be the surest way to stir up a hornets nest.
Otherwise, done privately & sensibly for good reason, I doubt that such charges would ever happen or stick if they did?

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Because that is what animal right activists have manage to convince people off. :rolleyes: and like any good myth it gets perpetuated from one person to another and if you repeat it over and over on the internet than it must be true :rofl:....

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And if some of these activists could have their way, we'd not even be allowed to keep pets of any kind. We're dealing with extremists on this, not a majority opinion.