Is a strong feeding response genetic and can it be line bred for?

I dont believe this is a topic with any scientific study behind so I am looking at more of a discussion based on genetics. So here goes, 2 questions;
Is a strong feeding response and willingness to eat anything a gene that can be line bred for?
Is catering to picky/weak eaters rather than culling them doing a disservice to bp's in general?

My reason for asking is I have seen discussions regarding picky irregular eating habits being a downside of bp's in general however I know they are not all like that. I personally have some that are absolute garbage disposals and some that are a pain in the butt when it comes to what/if they will eat (hatchlings and adults).

Interesting theory, but I would side with most likely not being genetic. I think its the same kind of thing with people, dogs, cats, etc... some kids are super picky eaters, some take lima beans like a champ. lol. I have an adult friend who eats like a child with her barely eating anything on a diet being mainly Mac N Cheese and Chicken Nuggets... I think its truly individual.

The majority of discussion that involved so called "picky/difficult" feeders usually revolve around husbandry and lack of understanding of the animal and metabolism, those animals are overfed in captivity but people still worry because they skip a meal, mainly because it's about getting the biggest animal as fast as possible those days :rolleyes:

Are there real picky feeders yes there are but that does not mean that it cannot be reversed just like it does not mean that the offsprings will suffer from the same issue.

I used to have a real picky feeder from day one, everything was tried everything failed until I did something that kick start her feeding habit and now she eats like a horse and is very aggressive when it comes too food.

Same goes with big animals that have a strong feeding response and every now and then they will throw something that is a poor feeder compare to similar animals of similar size and age.

Than you have lazy feeders that feed well but are not aggressive when fed.

Now if the animal fails to thrive as an hatchling in the first 3 months needing to be force fed or assisted that is a whole different story as far as culling discussion goes.

A while back there were some discussions of pieds being notorious for fasting irregularly (not sure how true this is, just something I came across when reading), and spiders can have some trouble due to the wobble, but other than that it probably isn't super genetic.

Maybe over time genes can influence it though. Miniature poodles are not known to be "food hounds" as far as emptying their bowls goes, however the majority of labs and beagles will eat themselves to death if given the chance...is the food drive genetic? Maybe, but I don't think that there are many studies.

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Originally Posted by enginee837

I dont believe this is a topic with any scientific study behind so I am looking at more of a discussion based on genetics. So here goes, 2 questions;
Is a strong feeding response and willingness to eat anything a gene that can be line bred for?

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that would be awesome but i don't think it's genetic. i think picky eaters come w/ the territory if u have a BP or a collection. for this reason, i no longer believe that BP's are the perfect beginner snake. of course some are monster eaters but BP's in general are fussy w/ mice vs. rats, live vs. f/t, husbandry, seasons, meal prep, etc. u can fix things like husbandry but that will not help when your BP is in a fast.
i think alot of the pickiness comes from the transition from mice to rats, from live to f/t and the failures to convert them. Lol i think we can solve the problem by feeding all of our BP's plenty of live mice only.

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Originally Posted by enginee837

Is catering to picky/weak eaters rather than culling them doing a disservice to bp's in general?

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how soon do u cull? 3 picky meals attempts, 3 months? what's the prey? what if u fail to convert a BP to a f/t rat after 6months of perfectly eating f/t mice? is that being picky enough and do u cull? depending on visual genetics involved, we might be missing out on some cool morphs if all we did was cull picky eaters.

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Originally Posted by enginee837

My reason for asking is I have seen discussions regarding picky irregular eating habits being a downside of bp's in general however I know they are not all like that. I personally have some that are absolute garbage disposals and some that are a pain in the butt when it comes to what/if they will eat (hatchlings and adults).

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not every BP is a picky eater, it's just the "popular" consensus. just like not every Boa or Retic is a garbage disposal.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I used to have a real picky feeder from day one, everything was tried everything failed until I did something that kick start her feeding habit and now she eats like a horse and is very aggressive when it comes too food.

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what did u do?

Degrees of drive can be selected for in other animals, I wouldn't be shocked if they can be selected for in snakes At least to some degree. But there are just so many variables, it might not be feasible to select for. To kind of spin off from the points Deborah brought up, one would have to come up with a way of separating husbandry-related feeding response from an animal's innate, genetic response. Even then, I suspect it would take a while to line breed a family of ball pythons to feed like, say, boas or Angolans.

Feeding response also appears related to an individual snake's confidence, for lack for of a better word, and that does appear to be somewhat innate. In my hatchies, I do notice it's the more nervous babies that are slower take their first meal, while the calmer babies tend to eat right out of the gate. I do make the effort to start all my hatchies on f/t, so that factors in, as well. When I have had a really reluctant feeder into adulthood, though, even on live, it's always one of my higher-stress snakes.

All that said, I've had a high-stress finicky male -- who started on f/t -- produce calm chow hound babies. (And nervous, finicky babies, too.)

I understand husbandry can be to blame for feeding issues however when all of my bp's are in a rack systsm that gives them exactly the same enviroment that factor gets ruled out. I have one female that for the last few years has eaten what ever I put in front of her, one female that eats f/t rats but eats sporadically and a male up until last year would eat f/t but went on a 8 month hunger strike and now will only take live. If he was not the most expensive bp in our collection I probbably would have fed him off to one of my aspedities as we have no interest in live feeding (too costly to purchase them and too much hassle to breed your own).
Of our six hatchlings 4 ate almost immediately and have been pounding f/t rat pinks since day one, 2 required assist feeding before finally taking live mouse hoppers (they still refuse to switch). Again, all babies have exactly the same enviroment.

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Originally Posted by Crowfingers

A while back there were some discussions of pieds being notorious for fasting irregularly (not sure how true this is, just something I came across when reading), and spiders can have some trouble due to the wobble, but other than that it probably isn't super genetic.

Maybe over time genes can influence it though. Miniature poodles are not known to be "food hounds" as far as emptying their bowls goes, however the majority of labs and beagles will eat themselves to death if given the chance...is the food drive genetic? Maybe, but I don't think that there are many studies.

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Actually interestingly enough for labs at least they actually connected that to a mutation. Here's the study if anyone's interested. https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...50413116301632

I think it would be an interesting breeding project. There's always a chance that something could turn up.

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Originally Posted by enginee837

Is a strong feeding response and willingness to eat anything a gene that can be line bred for?

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I have never seen someone breed specifically for feeding response, but I have seen this theoretical question posed before. The problem is that (as alluded to above) some snakes may be proverbial garbage disposals in one setting, while picky eaters in another. Parameters that might affect eating habits can be humidity, temperature, light cycle (circadian rhythm), enclosure, prey type, etc. There also the phenomena that some snakes start out as picky eaters, and then become garbage disposals as they get older. If you culled that snake too early, you might miss the final result you are striving for. In short, I like the idea, but I think the factors above make it difficult to really determine which are 'good' and 'bad' specimens.

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Originally Posted by enginee837

Is catering to picky/weak eaters rather than culling them doing a disservice to bp's in general?

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Continuing with the above, when would you cull? When would a snake be considered 'bad breeding material'? In addition, one could extend this logic to snakes that fall ill. Should you consider a snake a "failure" if it gets sick to easily? Should you let it fight the disease and see if it succumbs or lives? What if the ailment is a result of poor husbandry?

Now, I certainly think there are a variety of breeding practices that do a disservice to the hobby and and the snakes themselves, but this particular avenue is riddled with variables that are difficult to control for or evaluate. However, if you were to embark on such a project, I would be interested to hear how it turns out.

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Originally Posted by Ax01

what did u do?

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Well while at 4 years of age she was still 1100/1200 grams (finally) I just went ahead and bred her, everything changed after that. :gj:

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Originally Posted by enginee837

I understand husbandry can be to blame for feeding issues however when all of my bp's are in a rack systsm that gives them exactly the same enviroment that factor gets ruled out. I have one female that for the last few years has eaten what ever I put in front of her, one female that eats f/t rats but eats sporadically and a male up until last year would eat f/t but went on a 8 month hunger strike and now will only take live. If he was not the most expensive bp in our collection I probbably would have fed him off to one of my aspedities as we have no interest in live feeding (too costly to purchase them and too much hassle to breed your own).
Of our six hatchlings 4 ate almost immediately and have been pounding f/t rat pinks since day one, 2 required assist feeding before finally taking live mouse hoppers (they still refuse to switch). Again, all babies have exactly the same enviroment.

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So the real problems are not the snakes it's the fact that they don't want to eat what YOU want to feed them, that's very different.It's about feeding what works, in my experience even animals that are assisted can and will become the strongest feeders again if you feed what THEY want.

I mean sure you can feed off a BP because he won't eat what YOU want it to eat but that got to be one of the worse justification, you might want to seriously revisit breeding BP unless you are willing to change your view on feeding what they want and not what YOU want because BP are unlike any other species and they won't always feed the way you want them too.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

So the real problems are not the snakes it's the fact that they don't want to eat what YOU want to feed them, that's very different.It's about to feed what works, and even animals that are assisted in my experience become the strongest feeders again if you feed what they want, I mean sure you can feed off a BP because he won't eat what YOU want it to eat because you are not willing to make the effort but if it's the case, you might want to seriously revisit breeding BP unless you are willing to change your view on feeding what they want and not what YOU want.

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You are certainly entitled to your opinion however there are plenty of bp's that are more than happy to eat what I want to feed them. Hence the topic, is it possible to breed for this trait.

Oh and by the way, there are places where feeding live is illegal. What do you think happens to the picky eaters over there?

Brings another question, if you are telling me that willingness to feed a bp off because it won't take F/T or because it has a weak feeding response should make me question wether or not I should breed bp's. I would ask you which is more or less humane, feeding a live rat to a snake or a humanely euthanized bp to a snake that prefers eating other snakes/reptiles to rodents? I personally don't see any difference.

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Originally Posted by enginee837

Oh and by the way, there are places where feeding live is illegal. What do you think happens to the picky eaters over there?

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Like where England? Also that what many think because people believe everything animal activists tell them. It is not legal unless it is made for entertainment or public viewing and or will cause prolonged unnecessary suffering.

Live feeding is legal people just got convinced otherwise.

And there are no such laws in the US.

But again that would be an excuse either way for one not to do the best he can regardless of his beliefs or willingness.

If tomorrow they make F/T rodent illegal are gonna feed crickets??? I don't think so......or maybe :rolleyes:

Again you chose the worst species to work with when it comes to feeding because sooner or later any given BP will have issues and if you are not willing to feed what works I am not sure that's the right species for you, there are many species that will eat ANYTHING, live, f/t, hot, cold, etc

I have only breezed over the replies here so I may have missed it but, speaking as a geneticist, the answer to the first question is yes (with a caveat) and the answer to the second question is no (also with a caveat).

Nearly any trait can be line bred for; large clutch size, rapid growth, size at maturity, age at which the animal breeds, twins... So while it is not likely to be the result of a specific single gene, a strong feed response is certainly something that can be line bred for.

As far as catering to picky eaters being a disservice... As most have noted, the majority of the time the reason an animal is being picky is because of a husbandry issue which can be resolved with diligence. In the rare case where refusal to eat is genetic, the animal usually solves the issue itself by dying, regardless of what measures are taken to get it to eat. Either that or the animal takes so long to get to breedable size that by the time it does it has been skipped over in favor of a different animal that ate better and so got to size better and so was bred first and so passed on its "better" genes. And, finally, if the poor eater is bred in spite of the fact that it took so dang long to get up to size then inevitably it is going to be bred to an animal that was a better eater and so got to size quickly and so was used for breeding over some other crappy feeder thereby passing on its "better" genes and, hopefully, diluting/offsetting the "poor eater" genes. Which takes us right back to my answer for question one

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Originally Posted by enginee837

I dont believe this is a topic with any scientific study behind so I am looking at more of a discussion based on genetics. So here goes, 2 questions;
Is a strong feeding response and willingness to eat anything a gene that can be line bred for?
Is catering to picky/weak eaters rather than culling them doing a disservice to bp's in general?

My reason for asking is I have seen discussions regarding picky irregular eating habits being a downside of bp's in general however I know they are not all like that. I personally have some that are absolute garbage disposals and some that are a pain in the butt when it comes to what/if they will eat (hatchlings and adults).

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I am far from a expert here. I am a novice when it comes to ball pythons. I have read a lot about their eating habits in a short period of time and there are several things that seam to hold true with Ball pythons. Here are a few of my findings.

1) Ball pythons are habit forming. I know a local breeder that one of her pythons will not eat rats with red eyes. He had a bad experience with one once. Would he starve if only offered rats with red eyes? Not going to test that. What is offered can also be habit forming for some ball pythons. Rat/mouse/ASF etc.... can lead to food preference.

2) Different snake can mean taste preference. You like certain foods when you eat so you tend to eat what you like. Some like the taste of one kind or mouse or rat over another. I think this is more personality than genetics.

3) Learning how to eat. Some babies know instantly what food is and how to constrict it right away. Others have to learn what food is and others how to kill it before eating it. I think that snakes have a learning curve and some (like some people) are more intelligent than others. Not getting into instinct and how much reasoning a BP has but there is a certain level of intelligence that comes into play here.

4) Husbandry. Some need precise living conditions to eat and survive well in general and this is often directly tied to feeding response.

5) Breeding season. Some snakes fast during the breeding season because they are looking for a mate and don't have time to stop and eat. It is a drive that can not be ignored in some animals. Sure it is stronger in some BPs than others but it plays a part in eating habits.

6) Simply not hungry. Most BPs will self regulate diet with need. Some are over eaters. In captivity food is more plentiful than in the wild. This also makes perfect since with the fasting period in winter for most animals when food supply is less. Digestion takes energy. Eating stored fat takes less energy.

Like I said I am far from expert here but I think genetics plays more a part in survivability than eating response. This is all theory and gathered information.

Peace....

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Originally Posted by enginee837

You are certainly entitled to your opinion however there are plenty of bp's that are more than happy to eat what I want to feed them. Hence the topic, is it possible to breed for this trait.

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This is a classic argument of nature vs nurture. I think truth is somewhere in-between.