What do I do with this poor baby?

I'm new here and new to Ball Pythons so please forgive my ignorance, but I have a baby male who isn't doing so well and I have no idea what do. Quick stats.

* bought at a reptile expo on 12/10 from a small breeder
* was told he was eating live pinkies and was due to be fed that evening
* he is seven months old
* tub setup (temp 85, humidity between 50 and 60%)
* left him alone for a week to acclimate, per my research before offering F/T rat pup. He refused
* left him alone for another week, again because I'd read it was normal and fine to go long periods without eating.
* offered F/T pinky which I thawed in mouse bedding, heated with a hairdryer, brained and shook with tongs for 10 mins. He just hid his head.
* left him alone for several days and when I checked on him he looked like he was losing weight. His skin was loose and wrinkled and his back was becoming pointed.
* gave him a Pedialyte soak after research suggested he may be dehydrated. He looked a bit better.
* contacted his breeder with his state, and he told me it would be useless to try switching him to F/T and provided me with a few people who may have live pinkies. (I had already called every pet store in my area, live feeders are no longer allowed apparently).
* no one had pinkies. Smallest was a mouse hopper and he assured me he should be able to eat that. I took two.
* offered the hopper several days ago and he struck and killed after much dangling and shaking, but seemed to have trouble swallowing. Struggled for about 2 hours before giving up. Left the hopper in overnight, still there in the morning.
* starting to look worse, very wrinkled, lethargic, eyes look dry.
* after calling the exotic vet and not having available apt for several days, decided to soak again and assist feed. Barely puts up a fight, but was able to swallow pinky.
* looks better today, much more active and alert.

So I guess my questions are... How serious is his condition? How long can a 7 month old go without eating? Why was he on pinkies? Why wasn't he able to get the hopper down? Why was he dehydrated? What do I do now? I don't want to cause him any more stress than necessary so do I assist feed again? If so when and how much? When do I offer the hopper?

I'm sorry, I know this is a lot but obviously I'm not making the right decisions for him, and getting the right info just by researching so I need help. I'm very worried about him so any advice would be appreciated.

We'll need more specific information on the setup you have, pics would be best.

Specific questions:

• How are you heating? UTH? CHE? RHP?
• What's the temp on the cold side and the hot side?
• What's the size of the tub?
• What's the animal given for security options? (Hides? How many? Plant cover? Which substrate? Tub sides blacked out?)

So pics of the animal and also the setup will help us possibly root out issues on your end, which is all we can really do. Seems to be some issues on breeder side as well, based on the information you've given, but nothing to be done about that. All we can focus on right now is trying to rectify what might be causing the animal to have these reactions.

Going into the vet and getting a checkup and fecal screen no matter what is also advisable.

Do this to a T https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-hatchling-101 but adjust the prey size to something equal the girth size, pinkies are too small as for hopper they should if it is an average seven month old, hoppers are usually offered for the first 2 to 3 meals in the animal's life, without a weight or picture it's hard to tell what your ideal prey should be.

welcome to the forum!!! i'm going to go over a couple points on your post to try and clarify some things and offer advice:

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Originally Posted by LindsayMichelle

* tub setup (temp 85, humidity between 50 and 60%)

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could you expand on your temps a bit? there are 3 temperatures you should know at all times: heat source temperature, enclosure hot spot temperature, and ambient (air) temperature. also, what is your enclosure like and what equipment are you using? heating elements, thermometers, etc.

the main reason young ball pythons don't eat is due to poor husbandry. you need to get your husbandry 100% correct before trying any more soaking or assist feeding.

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Originally Posted by LindsayMichelle

* left him alone for a week to acclimate, per my research before offering F/T rat pup. He refused

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switching from mice to rats can be a struggle, let alone from live to F/T, so a refusal is unsurprising.

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Originally Posted by LindsayMichelle

* offered F/T pinky which I thawed in mouse bedding, heated with a hairdryer, brained and shook with tongs for 10 mins. He just hid his head.

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rat or mouse??

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Originally Posted by LindsayMichelle

* contacted his breeder with his state, and he told me it would be useless to try switching him to F/T and provided me with a few people who may have live pinkies. (I had already called every pet store in my area, live feeders are no longer allowed apparently).

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it is not impossible or useless to try and switch. i'm not sure what this breeder was thinking telling you this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LindsayMichelle

* looks better today, much more active and alert.

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"active and alert" along with "better" are not words i'd use together to describe a ball python. an active beep is usually stressed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LindsayMichelle

So I guess my questions are... How serious is his condition? How long can a 7 month old go without eating? Why was he on pinkies? Why wasn't he able to get the hopper down? Why was he dehydrated? What do I do now? I don't want to cause him any more stress than necessary so do I assist feed again? If so when and how much? When do I offer the hopper?

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ball pythons are very efficient with their food intake and metabolism. a 7mo old at a healthy weight can last quite a long time without food. how much does your snake weigh? let's start here:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2F98qfzDH.png

I'm sad to hear about your problems.
Switching a ball python from eating live to F/T is a lot of work, especially for someone who hasn't had a ball python before. I am also a bit concerned about him still eating pinkies. He's not a hatchling anymore. I think he should be on adult mice by now but if he's not big enough then that's not possible.
Honestly, I think the breeder you chose to go with is not a good breeder.
Do you have a photographs of the little noodle? If yes, could you post it?

How serious is his condition?
If he's loosing weight, then there's a problem. Have you weighed him and kept track of his weight?

How long can a 7 month old ball python go without eating?
If he's not loosing weight and just simply fasting, then he can go for months without a problem. There are cases in which ball python fast for more than 9 months.

Why was he on pinkies?
I'd like to know that as well.

Why wasn't he able to get the hopper down?
The animal seems really stressed to me. Sometimes switching to bigger sizes can cause problems for ball python. If the hopper is a big as the biggest part of the ball pythons body, then he should be able to swallow it. If not, then you must choose a bigger or a smaller prey item. For now sticking with pinkies (maybe take 2 when you feed him) is probably your best option.

Why was he dehydrated?
I believe the breeder isn't a very good one.

What do I do now?
Try not to stress the little worm and give him some time. Change his water often and take care of humidity. Try to feed him every 5 days with pinkies for now and keep track of his weight.

I don't want to cause him any more stress than necessary so do I assist feed again?
Assist feeding is very stressful for a ball python. I would suggest not to do it unless there really isn't any other way.

When do I offer the hopper?
When he has eaten the pinkies for about 5 times in a row and looks healthy to you.

I hope this was a least a bit helpful. There are a lot of people in this forum who lots of experience (way more than I do). The best advice I can give you is to listen to their advice!

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

"active and alert" along with "better" are not words i'd use together to describe a ball python. an active beep is usually stressed.

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I read active and alert as "more responsive" in this context vs responding to stimuli sluggishly, displaying lethargy, so it may well be better. Depends on which way the poster means it.

OP- if you can provide a picture of the snake, it would greatly assist people in knowing the best course of action. A good picture will allow people to assess the body condition of the snake. I

f the body condition isn't too bad, you should back way off on the intervention, make sure everything is up to par, and just let him de-stress. If it's critical, more drastic intervention can be discussed then. You can also use the same simple skin tenting test as is used for humans to check if there is critical levels of dehydration present - it's useful for most animals. Dented eyecaps can also be seen when snakes are dehydrated - looks like the picture below - although this can be seen with relatively mild dehydration. If there's no signs of anything worse than mild dehydration, good humidity and a water bowl are sufficient for rehydration.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...ncg1qz4rgp.jpg


Most snake species, including this one, are very good with low resource conditions. This means that in cases of underfeeding and dehydration, unless the issue is severe, they're usually better off just being provided what they need and left to their own devices to fix the issues.

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Originally Posted by Kcl

I read active and alert as "more responsive" in this context vs responding to stimuli sluggishly, displaying lethargy, so it may well be better. Depends on which way the poster means it.

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reading it back over, within its context your interpretation does make sense. i'm sure OP will explain.

Ok I will get the info and pics asap. Give me a min though, both my girls have brutal stomach viruses right now and juggling their care and cleaning up the puke is...distracting.

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Originally Posted by LindsayMichelle

* was told he was eating live pinkies

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You need to feed live then. I am sorry but it is more often than not that a new owner gets a ball python without any idea of the previous feeding habits. At least you know it was feeding live. You are going to have to do that for a while until you get it settled in and growing.

I recommend finding a pet store that offers fuzzy or hopper mice and purchase those. It is often very difficult to get a ball python swapped to frozen thawed rodents when you are also trying to correct husbandry issues and get them acclimated. It would be far better to feed the same prey type the breeder or seller was doing. Pinky mice are almost all gelatinous cartilage and fat and not really nutritious toward larger juvenile snakes like ball pythons. Starting on fuzzy or weaned mice would be far more nutritious and finding a smaller hopper mouse would be best.

Get him feeding then worry about switching to frozen thawed.

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Originally Posted by SDA

You need to feed live then. I am sorry but it is more often than not that a new owner gets a ball python without any idea of the previous feeding habits. At least you know it was feeding live. You are going to have to do that for a while until you get it settled in and growing.

I recommend finding a pet store that offers fuzzy or hopper mice and purchase those. It is often very difficult to get a ball python swapped to frozen thawed rodents when you are also trying to correct husbandry issues and get them acclimated. It would be far better to feed the same prey type the breeder or seller was doing. Pinky mice are almost all gelatinous cartilage and fat and not really nutritious toward larger juvenile snakes like ball pythons. Starting on fuzzy or weaned mice would be far more nutritious and finding a smaller hopper mouse would be best.

Get him feeding then worry about switching to frozen thawed.

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They mentioned that their local pet stores aren't carrying live, they may be in one of the states/countries with a live feeder ban, which I'd point to as a breeder-based issue. Hindsight's 20/20, not everyone goes into it knowing to look for an animal already established on f/t rats.

Otherwise, correct. Upgrading this animal over time (aka pinky mice > fuzzy mice > hopper mice > etc) will probably be best to not stress its digestive system with a large jump in prey size, especially if it's already malnourished from its time in the breeder's care. Here's a recent guide on that. It'll be easier to swap once the animal is an established eater so you can afford to have it fast for a few months as it tries to wait you out for another mouse.

Omg this can't be right. I don't have a gram scale but I do have an infant scale that measures to the half ounce. I just weighed him (3oz) and converted oz to grams and he weighs 85.04 grams. I mean I know it's probably not terribly accurate but from what I just read 85 grams is way too small for his age right?! Here's a pic of him just now (the first two), one of him before I gave him a soak when he freaked me out (also the pic I sent to the breeder), and when I first got him.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...85d2c22530.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...9328fa18a9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...23d7133f2a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...4b9b9fde69.jpg

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Again

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Do this to a T https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-hatchling-101 .

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Feed a large hopper to weanling.

The key his optimum husbandry, assist feeding is not and is a vicious circle.

First - Welcome to the forum
Also, soaking can be stressful in itself, but if severely dehydrated may be necessary - however I would use luke warm regular water, not pedialyte. It is balanced for mammals and contains a fair amount of sugar which snakes can't really process the same way. (it can also cause a sticky residue on his scales) Probably didn't hurt him, but regular water would be much better and absorbed more easily.

I used spring or reverse osmosis water that does not contain chlorine / ammonia (mainly habit from dealing with fish).

Getting a few good meals in him will defiantly help too. I'd find a good vet that specializes in reptiles (not just one that is willing to see them) to get a wellness exam and fecal will help too.

Looking at the pics you can also darken the all the sides of the cage by wrapping in dark paper or covering with a light towel, adding very secure hides (not the 1/2 log type things), keeping the humidity up, basically follow the hatchling 101 link as best as possible. Snakes are tough animals, now that you're providing better care he should be able to turn around - he just needs a little more TLC than others. This site is great for helping learn new stuff.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Again

Feed a large hopper to weanling.

The key his optimum husbandry, assist feeding is not and is a vicious circle.

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I think you misunderstood, I didn't post his weight and pictures in the hopes of getting the green light to assist feed. I have no desire to assist feed unless it is absolutely necessary. The only reason I did it before was because his breeder told me to. But I'm here because I'm wasn't sure I could trust him. I was also hoping to get some feedback on whether his wrinkly appearance was due to low weight or dehydration and how severe his condition is. As for the rest of the pictures and info, I'm going to have to finish that post tomorrow.

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He doesn't look dangerously skinny to me. You can keep an eye on his weight, but as-is, it looks to me like he'll be just fine eating in his own time as long as husbandry is all set. The wrinkles could be an impending shed - he does also look to me like he might be a bit pinker in those photos, but it could be the lighting. It looks to me like he'll be just fine with good husbandry and maybe keeping humidity on the high end for now.

People have given you some tips on husbandry and feeding going forward and I'm sure will be happy to answer any additional questions you may have. Just some time and patience and minimal disturbance will likely fix your baby right up.

I would, if you can manage it, feed live until he's eaten a few meals. Otherwise it's too hard to tell if the issue is that he doesn't want or recognize the food you're offering vs he's still not feeling safe/comfortable enough to eat or some other problem. Eliminating as many variables as possible makes things easier.

If he really only weighs 83 gr. he couldn't have weighted that much more when you got him.

That means that at 6 1/2 month old he must have weighed 90 gr. or so. I bet that he was a hatchling that just wouldn't eat for the breeder and was eventually assist or force fed a couple of meals. Most likely "pinkies", since people will assist/force smaller meals.

There just isn't another good explanation for SUCH a low weight for the age.

I "assume" the breeder assist fed a few small meals and then decided to un-load that animal. It should have NEVER been sold. Esp. to someone with little experience. The added stress of being carted around to a show, moved to a new home etc, didn't help.

No wonder this animal is lethargic. Having had trouble swallowing a hopper and also not putting up much of a fight during assist feed also shows that this is a weak animal. Most likely due to the lack of nutrition during its life so far.

Just like everyone else said, make sure you have husbandry SPOT ON. That includes lots of privacy, blacking out sides and back of enclosure, hides, etc.

It is good that he was at least willing to take a meal (even if he didn't get it down yet). If the assist feeding may have given him a boost, he may be willing to take another hopper and get it down next time. Give a break with NO STRESS (no soaking, moving, handling) and then try the live hopper again and cross your fingers.

I think there is hope. And you are doing great trying to help this little one and seeking the right answers. So kudos to you.

As for the breeder selling such an animal ? Shame on him !!

This might be a stupid post but please keep us updated on the little one's progress. Don't hesitate to ask further questions!
But for now just nail the husbandry and keep your eyes on his progress (just like you're doing right now)!

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Originally Posted by zina10

As for the breeder selling such an animal ? Shame on him !!

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Yeah, this is what I was thinking re: the breeder. All signs point to significant issues there, which nullifies what I was considering suggesting and many legitimate breeders will offer: returning the animal if there's severe issues like this. But that's unlikely going to be an option given the track record we've seen here, such as selling a underweight animal on live-feedings only in a place where live feeders are borderline inaccessible.

As the others have said, switching to a substrate that maintains humidity better, keeping the humidity up, and offering a waterbowl large enough the animal can soak if it wants (such as a saucer) will help on the hydration angle without stressing the animal like baths will.

As will Deborah's "stubborn baby" tutorial with the smaller tub and bare setup, which is intended to remove as many variables that might be keeping the animal from feeding as possible. As this point, it's not an emergency to make him eat based on the body shape (IMHO) so assist feedings and whatnot shouldn't be considered again and probably should be administered by a reptile vet in the future along with a fecal scan.

I only hope that the breeder did not sell one of those wasting babies that never get to eating on their own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

If he really only weighs 83 gr. he couldn't have weighted that much more when you got him.

That means that at 6 1/2 month old he must have weighed 90 gr. or so. I bet that he was a hatchling that just wouldn't eat for the breeder and was eventually assist or force fed a couple of meals. Most likely "pinkies", since people will assist/force smaller meals.

There just isn't another good explanation for SUCH a low weight for the age.

I "assume" the breeder assist fed a few small meals and then decided to un-load that animal. It should have NEVER been sold. Esp. to someone with little experience. The added stress of being carted around to a show, moved to a new home etc, didn't help.

No wonder this animal is lethargic. Having had trouble swallowing a hopper and also not putting up much of a fight during assist feed also shows that this is a weak animal. Most likely due to the lack of nutrition during its life so far.

Just like everyone else said, make sure you have husbandry SPOT ON. That includes lots of privacy, blacking out sides and back of enclosure, hides, etc.

It is good that he was at least willing to take a meal (even if he didn't get it down yet). If the assist feeding may have given him a boost, he may be willing to take another hopper and get it down next time. Give a break with NO STRESS (no soaking, moving, handling) and then try the live hopper again and cross your fingers.

I think there is hope. And you are doing great trying to help this little one and seeking the right answers. So kudos to you.

As for the breeder selling such an animal ? Shame on him !!

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The thought that I had been "swindled" did cross my mind when he started looking poorly. The breeder had said that he bought him to breed, but changed his mind about which morph he wanted to go with. Also, he had been marked down $50, which I assumed was because there were so many BPs on display at the show. I did ask about a health guarantee, and he kinda hesitated and said "yeah, I'll do two weeks." I realize now that I should have asked more questions. When I saw him I fell in love, but if I had known he wasn't an established eater or that feeders were banned here I would never have taken him.

So if I understand correctly the general consensus is that I should perfect my husbandry, leave him be for a while (how long?) And offer smaller F/T

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Originally Posted by hollowlaughter

Yeah, this is what I was thinking re: the breeder. All signs point to significant issues there, which nullifies what I was considering suggesting and many legitimate breeders will offer: returning the animal if there's severe issues like this. But that's unlikely going to be an option given the track record we've seen here, such as selling a underweight animal on live-feedings only in a place where live feeders are borderline inaccessible.

As the others have said, switching to a substrate that maintains humidity better, keeping the humidity up, and offering a waterbowl large enough the animal can soak if it wants (such as a saucer) will help on the hydration angle without stressing the animal like baths will.

As will Deborah's "stubborn baby" tutorial with the smaller tub and bare setup, which is intended to remove as many variables that might be keeping the animal from feeding as possible. As this point, it's not an emergency to make him eat based on the body shape (IMHO) so assist feedings and whatnot shouldn't be considered again and probably should be administered by a reptile vet in the future along with a fecal scan.

I only hope that the breeder did not sell one of those wasting babies that never get to eating on their own.

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When you say wasting babies that never get to eating on their own, do you mean there's a chance he won't ever eat on his own?

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Originally Posted by LindsayMichelle

The thought that I had been "swindled" did cross my mind when he started looking poorly. The breeder had said that he bought him to breed, but changed his mind about which morph he wanted to go with. Also, he had been marked down $50, which I assumed was because there were so many BPs on display at the show. I did ask about a health guarantee, and he kinda hesitated and said "yeah, I'll do two weeks." I realize now that I should have asked more questions. When I saw him I fell in love, but if I had known he wasn't an established eater or that feeders were banned here I would never have taken him.

So if I understand correctly the general consensus is that I should perfect my husbandry, leave him be for a while (how long?) And offer smaller F/T

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If it was mine, I would make sure husbandry (incl. privacy) is spot on asap. Then wait a couple of days (2 to 3) then try another LIVE hopper "if" you can find another one.

Simply because, he was willing to take that before (just to weak to get it down).

Ideally, he would take another one and may have the strength to get it down. If that works, I would try another 2 to 3 feedings with hoppers before trying f/t.

Of course, that is IF you can find live ones..

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Originally Posted by LindsayMichelle

When you say wasting babies that never get to eating on their own, do you mean there's a chance he won't ever eat on his own?

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As zina mentioned, yours has attempted to eat on its own, so he's not of that grouping. Underweight for the age and other issues, but not that one.

But rarely, in some clutches, there will be babies that never eat or are extremely stubborn to get started and spend months being assist/force fed; yes. IIRC these are often the smaller eggs of the clutches, animals with defects from before they were hatched, so on.

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Originally Posted by hollowlaughter

We'll need more specific information on the setup you have, pics would be best.

Specific questions:

• How are you heating? UTH? CHE? RHP?
• What's the temp on the cold side and the hot side?
• What's the size of the tub?
• What's the animal given for security options? (Hides? How many? Plant cover? Which substrate? Tub sides blacked out?)

So pics of the animal and also the setup will help us possibly root out issues on your end, which is all we can really do. Seems to be some issues on breeder side as well, based on the information you've given, but nothing to be done about that. All we can focus on right now is trying to rectify what might be causing the animal to have these reactions.

Going into the vet and getting a checkup and fecal screen no matter what is also advisable.

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Ok so here is my setup right now. It is a 28qt sterilite tub. I was given a zoomed heating pad and the one thermometer/hygrometer for a rub setup and told it was all I needed. The heating pad was too small I think, the temps were too low. So I started using a regular heating pad (temporarily and under strict supervision) and the temp was perfect. I'm going out today and can get whatever else he needs, which I understand is a new heating source, 2 more thermometers, a thermostat, plant cover, another hide and moisture retaining substrate. Any recommendations on specific products (economical is appreciated, but not necessary)?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...8ba5615d1b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...59a59c7a19.jpg

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If you can, look for an infrared temp gun :). I like the Klein Tools temp gun since it takes dual reading, though can be a bit on the pricey side at $59.99 USD. Ryobi is also a good brand, and other keepers have great recommendations too for different budgets. It will really help with getting temps spot on for your little guy. And you mentioned getting another hide and some plants, that's great :)!

Are you getting a thermostat as well? Sorry if I'm being redundant about supplies you may already have!

Good luck to you :) As others have said, you're doing great trying to get this noodle on the right track, I'm rooting for you!

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Originally Posted by LindsayMichelle

Ok so here is my setup right now. It is a 28qt sterilite tub. I was given a zoomed heating pad and the one thermometer/hygrometer for a rub setup and told it was all I needed. The heating pad was too small I think, the temps were too low. So I started using a regular heating pad (temporarily and under strict supervision) and the temp was perfect. I'm going out today and can get whatever else he needs, which I understand is a new heating source, 2 more thermometers, a thermostat, plant cover, another hide and moisture retaining substrate. Any recommendations on specific products (economical is appreciated, but not necessary)?https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...8ba5615d1b.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...59a59c7a19.jpg

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It sounds good to me :)
Just don't buy aspen bedding. Go with cypress mulch or coco mulch (I think it's called Eco Earth). They're better at keeping humidity. Some moss might become helpful as well but it's not necessary.
I'm sorry I can't give you economical advice since I don't know the prices in the US.

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Originally Posted by LindsayMichelle

Ok so here is my setup right now. It is a 28qt sterilite tub. I was given a zoomed heating pad and the one thermometer/hygrometer for a rub setup and told it was all I needed. The heating pad was too small I think, the temps were too low. So I started using a regular heating pad (temporarily and under strict supervision) and the temp was perfect. I'm going out today and can get whatever else he needs, which I understand is a new heating source, 2 more thermometers, a thermostat, plant cover, another hide and moisture retaining substrate. Any recommendations on specific products (economical is appreciated, but not necessary)?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...8ba5615d1b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...59a59c7a19.jpg

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Too big for an animal that size and that is a poor feeder, again one LAST time follow the link provided to a T this is the key to get that animal to eat on it's own.

To a T means same tub size, same substrate etc.

Or you can follow advice from people with limited experience and it come to troubleshoot problematic animals.

To add to Deborah's post, Staples and Office Depot sell the Really Useful Box brand. A box with lockable lids that's 9 liter tub is believe is $12-14.99. Not sure if there's a 6qt option, though just putting this here as a starting point.

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Originally Posted by Quahog

If you can, look for an infrared temp gun :). It will really help with getting temps spot on for your little guy. And you mentioned getting another hide and some plants, that's great :)!

Are you getting a thermostat as well? Sorry if I'm being redundant about supplies you may already have!

Good luck to you :) As others have said, you're doing great trying to get this noodle on the right track, I'm rooting for you!

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Thank You! I so appreciate all the help. I can't tell you how stressful it's been trying to figure out the best way to help this little guy. I will be getting a thermostat but are you suggesting a temp gun in lieu of 2 more thermometers or in addition to?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Too big for an animal that size and that is a poor feeder, again one LAST time follow the link provided to a T this is the key to get that animal to eat on it's own.

To a T means same tub size, same substrate etc.

Or you can follow advice from people with limited experience and it come to troubleshoot problematic animals.

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Ok. I'm sorry, there's so much info and it's hard to know who and what to advice to follow, and what not to. I read through it again and am in the process of setting it up following your instructions.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Too big for an animal that size and that is a poor feeder, again one LAST time follow the link provided to a T this is the key to get that animal to eat on it's own.

To a T means same tub size, same substrate etc.

Or you can follow advice from people with limited experience and it come to troubleshoot problematic animals.

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This [emoji1369]. It still took weeks/a few months for my problem eater to eat consistently, but I also battled mites during that time. Deb’s advice works and made my girl a solid eater, and she finally took a f/t Yesterday after 6 months for me (I had to feed live, she would not take f/t until now. I got my own rats and bred my own, but I’ve owned pet rats before so it wasn’t an ordeal for me.)


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Omg I just checked on him and he looks so bad, I want to cry. He didn't look this bad yesterday. I put another hide in his tub on the cold side and this was how I found him. I touched him and he barely moved. I'm trying to get an apt for him now.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e2ca5cdf93.jpg

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In late October, my daughter got her first BP for her birthday. In July we had picked out a beautiful Cinnamon Banana male, but he was a problem feeder much like yours. On the advice of our local reptile shop, we selected another BP... a Pastel Banana male.

Our boy was already on f/t when we got him. A few days ago, he ate his first 40 gram weaned rat and now tips the scale at 340 grams. The good news is that the Cinnamon Banana male, as much as he struggled, is starting to thrive. We visit the shop every week or two and he is now eating regularly and starting to gain weight. So... keep you hopes up.

One thing I would suggest from personal experience is to replace your RBI hide with the small RBI hides. Even at 340 grams our boy prefers the smaller hides. He looks ridiculous in them (more like half in and half out), but that's what he prefers for now.

Also, Cuisinart makes a great kitchen scale for $25 that we appropriated for our boy: https://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-Dig.../dp/B009L1VV5W

Good luck!

He needs a tiny hide, perfect temps and humidity and live little tiny mice to eat. In my experience, young live mice are like candy to pythons and irresistible.


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The great thing about small mice is that he won’t be scared of them, and you can feed multiple of them frequently to fatten him up.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by LindsayMichelle

Omg I just checked on him and he looks so bad, I want to cry. He didn't look this bad yesterday. I put another hide in his tub on the cold side and this was how I found him. I touched him and he barely moved. I'm trying to get an apt for him now.https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...e2ca5cdf93.jpg

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In the interim, focus on getting the setup Deborah has mentioned. This animal is looking severely dehydrated, which will require assuring that your humidity is spot on, since some BPs will not eat if they're not hydrated enough and kept in high enough humidity.

Deborah's guide says 50-60% but I'd say in this case aim for 60% as a minimum until he plumps up some.

He definitely looks extremely skinny in that picture. Hoping for the best for him. :(

I should have mentioned a temp gun in addition to thermometers, sorry! :(

Though follow Debora's advice over mine!! Sorry for being confusing!

I think he's gone. I just finished his new tub and when I picked him up he was completely limp. I thought I may have felt some life but I can't be sure. I put him in the new tub and I'm scared to check on him again. I don't understand what happened and how he went downhill so quickly. I'm so upset

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Aw! :( I'm so sorry!

If the little one passed it's NOT your fault! You did everything you could!!:hug:

I'm really sorry if he has passed away. It's definitely not your mistake! You did your job amazingly! I wish he would've found you sooner :)

[emoji24] sorry for your loss

Honestly, I thought he looked truly terrible. Almost to far gone.

Especially with your description of his weakness and lethargy. They can reach a point where assist feeding (or even force feeding) doesn't work anymore.
Once a animal (or even human) reaches that point of emaciation, organ damage occurs. Oftentimes it is irreversible or even fatal.

Even the animals that DO come back from that, usually have lasting issues.

There is such a thing as "re-feeding syndrome". I'm not sure if snakes can get it, but, it may just affect them. Once the point of organ damage is reached, a feeding can actually cause the organs to shut down completely. Esp. if there was to much food and it overwhelmed the damaged system.

I say it again, this snake should have NEVER been sold. It was obviously a problem hatchling. If it barely weighed 90 gr at over 6 month old, I'd say it never ate on its own. Either way, it was emaciated. The stress of taking it to a show and then having to adjust to a new home, probably made things much worse.

Again, not your fault. The breeder, though....

I'm so sorry. What a terrible experience :( But please, don't let that put you off from trying again. Make sure you sanitize everything that can be sanitized and throw away the things that can't. And then get a HEALTHY well established hatchling from a good breeder. If you lived close enough to me, I'd give you one. Dedicated owners that are willing to do whatever it takes are what those animals deserve. Don't let this experience turn you off of owning one of those beautiful snakes !

Zina gave you amazing advice.. don't let this turn you off. I am so sorry you went through this. It's a terrible thing to lose any animal so you have my sympathy. I do hope when you get past this you can learn to take care of these wonderful animals again.

Don’t give up, if it is truly dead, then you will eventually recover and use your new knowledge to start again with another snake.
I would suggest starting with an established subadult, or even an adult. They are much easier to keep healthy and not worry. There are plenty of mature snakes for sale from breeders.


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So sorry for your loss.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

Honestly, I thought he looked truly terrible. Almost to far gone.

Especially with your description of his weakness and lethargy. They can reach a point where assist feeding (or even force feeding) doesn't work anymore.
Once a animal (or even human) reaches that point of emaciation, organ damage occurs. Oftentimes it is irreversible or even fatal.

Even the animals that DO come back from that, usually have lasting issues.

There is such a thing as "re-feeding syndrome". I'm not sure if snakes can get it, but, it may just affect them. Once the point of organ damage is reached, a feeding can actually cause the organs to shut down completely. Esp. if there was to much food and it overwhelmed the damaged system.

I say it again, this snake should have NEVER been sold. It was obviously a problem hatchling. If it barely weighed 90 gr at over 6 month old, I'd say it never ate on its own. Either way, it was emaciated. The stress of taking it to a show and then having to adjust to a new home, probably made things much worse.

Again, not your fault. The breeder, though....

I'm so sorry. What a terrible experience :( But please, don't let that put you off from trying again. Make sure you sanitize everything that can be sanitized and throw away the things that can't. And then get a HEALTHY well established hatchling from a good breeder. If you lived close enough to me, I'd give you one. Dedicated owners that are willing to do whatever it takes are what those animals deserve. Don't let this experience turn you off of owning one of those beautiful snakes !

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I hope OP goes through steps to demand a refund and if not given it, get in contact with whomever runs the convention this animal was bought at to bring the breeder to their attention. This wouldn't fly at my local one, at least.

This hatchling deserved better than that and its cruel to do to a new hobbyist.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

Honestly, I thought he looked truly terrible. Almost to far gone.

Especially with your description of his weakness and lethargy. They can reach a point where assist feeding (or even force feeding) doesn't work anymore.
Once a animal (or even human) reaches that point of emaciation, organ damage occurs. Oftentimes it is irreversible or even fatal.

Even the animals that DO come back from that, usually have lasting issues.

There is such a thing as "re-feeding syndrome". I'm not sure if snakes can get it, but, it may just affect them. Once the point of organ damage is reached, a feeding can actually cause the organs to shut down completely. Esp. if there was to much food and it overwhelmed the damaged system.

I say it again, this snake should have NEVER been sold. It was obviously a problem hatchling. If it barely weighed 90 gr at over 6 month old, I'd say it never ate on its own. Either way, it was emaciated. The stress of taking it to a show and then having to adjust to a new home, probably made things much worse.

Again, not your fault. The breeder, though....

I'm so sorry. What a terrible experience :( But please, don't let that put you off from trying again. Make sure you sanitize everything that can be sanitized and throw away the things that can't. And then get a HEALTHY well established hatchling from a good breeder. If you lived close enough to me, I'd give you one. Dedicated owners that are willing to do whatever it takes are what those animals deserve. Don't let this experience turn you off of owning one of those beautiful snakes !

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Thank you, you're very kind. He's definitely gone, I think I was just holding on to hope. I feel silly crying over a snake, especially one I'd only had for a month and never really got to enjoy. Even though he was probably a problem feeder, I can't help but feel guilty. I know if he had been in the hands of someone with more experience, he would still be here and he wouldn't have suffered. If I'd known what to look for, you know?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by hollowlaughter

I hope OP goes through steps to demand a refund and if not given it, get in contact with whomever runs the convention this animal was bought at to bring the breeder to their attention. This wouldn't fly at my local one, at least.

This hatchling deserved better than that and its cruel to do to a new hobbyist.

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I'm not holding onto hope for a refund, although $200 is a lot of money for my family. I may still try, but I definitely want to say something so this doesn't happen to another snake/owner. Any suggestions on what to say to him? He made it pretty clear that I should have been intervening/way more proactive when he didn't eat the first time, so I know he believes I am at fault for this.

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It's quite possible that no one here, not even those with great experience with snakes, could have saved this little guy given the condition it was likely in when you got it.

My sincere condolences to you for your loss. Give yourself time to heal. It will happen.

And remember, this is a wonderful forum to learn from, and, it is also a place to laugh with friends at some of the zanier situations that pop up out of the blue from time to time.

<><Peace

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LindsayMichelle

I'm not holding onto hope for a refund, although $200 is a lot of money for my family. I may still try, but I definitely want to say something so this doesn't happen to another snake/owner. Any suggestions on what to say to him? He made it pretty clear that I should have been intervening/way more proactive when he didn't eat the first time, so I know he believes I am at fault for this.

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Honestly?

From what I've gathered and heard so far, I wouldn't hold my breath that you get anything other then a guilt trip from that person!!

Just what should you have done ???

You didn't even have that animal for a full 4 weeks. Everyone knows you have to give them a few days rest. So you really only had 2 weeks to work with.
And who expects having to take "drastic" and pro-active measures after one missed feeding (after the week down time) ?? So what did he think you should do ? Force feed after one refused feeding ???

You waited ONE more week and then tried a live hopper, but the snake was to weak before then. So within 2 weeks the snake was so weak and lethargic it couldn't even swallow its food. Your husbandry wasn't perfect, but far better then others have. That is not what caused that snake to decline so rapidly !!!

Besides, a 7 month old snake at barely 90 grams at time of sale ? How does he explain that ?? And he told you to feed a live pinky ?? Who feeds a 7 month old Ball Python pinkies ??

He knows he can berate you and guilt trip you, because you are "new". He wouldn't dare try those arguments here or anywhere else where people know what the deal is.

So no, I doubt you'll see a penny.

The thing you could do is to present your case on the FBI facebook page. Not "the" FBI. Long name is "FBI - Feedback and Inquiries For Reptiles". Sign up there and read the terms, rules and a few posts, and you'll see how it works.

If you do decide to present your case make sure you have everything. Breeders name, what they said, what they did, pictures. Any proof. And be prepared to back it up. You also can't delete the post or you'll be banned. Just post the bare facts. He will be called out, but he will also possibly try to turn this around on you. But he hasn't got a leg to stand on, imho.

If this is an option for you, just sign up there, read a bit, and you will get the gist of it. If nothing more, others will be warned not to deal with that person..