Unexplained Passing.....Any Thoughts??

Not sure where to put this, but my ball python passed away suddenly last Thursday. After a slow and forth with the vet and some wait, he went in for a necropsy yesterday. Vet called just now to inform me the gross necropsy yielded no obvious cause of death. Everything seemed heathly. She isn't sure any samples she took will be viable enough for any testing, but will be calling labs on Tuesday (December 26th) to see if they think it's worth pursuing. I'm at such a loss right now. His history didn't show too many signs of anything. We got him from a pet store in 2012 and about a month into having him he got a respiratory infection. We assumed it was the dust from the substrate, so we changed that, gave him the shots and he seemed totally fine with no recurrence. Only odd signs he's ever had were that he refused to eat anything except for mice and they had to be super warm or he'd either not eat them, or strike them and miss repeatedly. He refused to eat on numerous occasions, which I had read was typical of a ball python to be picky and not always eat, so we just rolled with it. He was not as big as we've seen most 5 year old bps to be either. He rarely shed completely even with water and humidity. Only had sheds come off after a good soak. Last bad shed he had we put him into the bath and it got weird. As soon as he hit the water he started flailing and rolling as if he was panicked and couldn't right himself. Once I yanked him out of the water he was fine. His eye cap on one eye was still on and we had to gently peel it off with no real resistance. Oddly, though, his eye still looked funny/cloudy-ish with the eye cap off. The night before he passed he seemed fine and was wandering around his cage. Next day, feeding day, I go to turn everyone's lights on and find he had passed just mere hours before (he was still limp, except for his lower 1/4.) I instantly blamed myself for not seeing that anything was wrong. I should have taken him the next day after he did that weird thing in the bath. I just assumed he was freaked out by the big tub of water he was just put in as he hadn't been in a bath in a while. Well, I did research on everything, then began panicking that he had ibd. He never stargazed, but always had a slight tremor when he would do the snake "look around" thing they do when they lift their heads. Which he only had the tremor when he'd look around, never with normal squiggling. I just assumed it was normal or a quirk. He never had mouth rot, no second ri, didn't corkscrew, no huge red flag of any kind. But I feel if I had put all of those tiny issues together I would have suspected something sooner and possibly saved him. My vet said visually he appeared healthy, even a good amount of muscle and fat considering he didn't always eat. Organs checked out, and no tumors or anything visible. Well, she also believes it was something like being septic or bacterial or something unseen that would require a test of some sort. But also she thinks if it was something like that that it would've still taken him too fast to be caught in time. I worry they won't be able to get anything off of the samples after over 10 days since death, but the snake was kept refrigerated, so there's potential hope. I guess my question is, has this happened to anyone else? Does anyone have any guesses as to what happened to him? If I dropped the ball on him somehow, I don't want to do this to any of my other babies. (Which, for the record, they all went in for a vet visit this Monday to be sure they all looked good. I will also get fecals for them all in the coming weeks.) I don't want this to be my fault, but how else can I exaplain a seemingly healthy snake dying after only 5-6 years of life? Any similar stories, or theories to his death, or even critiques are very much appreciated!!

First of all, I'm very sorry for your loss.

And sometimes, there just isn't one good explanation.

However, the fact that he was a bad eater and also didn't shed good ever tells me it may just be husbandry related.
Many snakes can survive errors in husbandry, even eat and grow. But they live on despite these errors, not because of them.
And some just never thrive.

Can you tell us how he was housed ? What kind of enclosure, the size of it ? Pictures would help. How were the temperatures? How did you check, control those temperatures? How did you control humidity? Did he have privacy, hides?

It sounds to me like he was probably a typical petstore snake. Stressed for many reasons. Which lowers the immune systems ability to fight off disease. Since he didn't get sick until a month after you bought him, I do not think he caught it at the store, unless he had slight symptoms before you noticed them. That also makes me wonder if perhaps there was something "off" with your husbandry.
It could have started him on being a snake that just never did real well, never really thrived all that great. One that stayed susceptible to illness and disease.

I do not believe he had IBD UNLESS you may have added a infected animal to your collection not to long ago. That disease kills BP's pretty quick, it doesn't take 4 years.
The slight tremor when they hold themselves straight up is normal. Its from the strain of holding their body up. If it was just a slight tremor and only then...that is normal.

Honestly, it sounds to me like he wasn't the healthiest to begin with and eventually his body just shut down, possibly due to the stress of the bath, the temperatures, or the bad shed. The eye being cloudy AFTER removing the eye cap could be due to accidentally damaging it.

Of course it could also be that he wasn't the healthiest and eventually died despite GREAT husbandry. But the refusal to eat and the problems with shedding point to husbandry not being ideal. Even if that did not cause his death.

Sorry you lost an animal, but with what you said about sheds, I question your husbandry. And the tub thing sounds like the water was too hot, it shouldn’t of been warmer then low eighties. Do you have a temp gun? I would definitely look into your humidity, they should always be having good sheds. The eyecap issue didn’t sound very good either, I might of missed something, but that’s a good start.

Kind of not important, but bath water should be lukewarm. I put my snake in a bath once and seemed to really enjoy it, natural swimmers, it was elegant the way she whipped her body to propel.


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The ones I had to give a good soak to (rescues, way back) I preferred to do it in a tub. Like a plastic tub, not the bath tub.
Water luke warm (check, what can feel luke warm to us, can be kind of high to them)
Water level not so high that they literally have to swim. Just high enough to cover their body. I prefer to put a towel in there, something they can rest on and slither through.

While snakes can swim well, usually, it can still be stressful to one to suddenly be submerged in water. Especially if that snake is not the healthiest to begin with and the temps are not quite right.

First and foremost sorry to hear of your loss.

You may never find an answer to why your snake died but your story reveals you were an excellent keeper of your pet. You are to commended.

Just like any animal species, it's short life may have been determined at birth. Humans are born with afflictions that can usually be identified and sometimes treated. With snakes, sometimes it is just tough to figure out if an ailment is afflicting them and once determined was it caught in time and can it be treated.

I lost my first Burmese Python some 30 years ago at an early age (about 5 years old also). No signs of sickness at all. I had it examined at Kansas State University Veterinary Scool with no definitive conclusion.

Sometimes it just happens. Be proud of your dedication you provided to your snake. It couldn't have asked for a better owner.

Well, he's the only one of my 4 snakes to have the shedding issue and all temps are checked with a temp gun, water is provided in one of those stone corner bowls, bedding varies between pine shavings and paper towels, which ever I have the most of at the time. Cage was a 30 gallon. He was fed outside of cage to avoid eating any subrate. Vet also mentioned parasites as a potential cause but never took a fecal to my knowledge. Bath water was also always checked with temp gun too. He didn't start out as a bad eater either, nor did he totally have shed issues in the beginning (He did have a handful of good sheds). We did move from Alabma to West Virginia and shortly before that is when he began to show signs of being picky (wouldn't eat rats and mice had to be white. Wouldn't touch a colored mouse for some reason.) Could the move, roughly a year and half into owning him, have effected him in some way? I don't have a humidity gauge of any kind at the moment, but it is notably humid in the room and they do get misted. It's just baffling that she didn't see anything. I mean if it was husbandry related, wouldn't his body have shown visible signs of some kind of stress or immune problems? Like if he was too hot or cold or dehydrated, wouldn't his organs/body have been deformed/shown some signs or this?? I mean, maybe not, I'm no vet or expert, but I would think something would have been visible.

I would like to point out that errors in husbandry does NOT equal a bad owner. Or one that isn't dedicated.

Many people do not realize that husbandry isn't ideal, because their animals do fine and they don't know better. Or they been told wrong.

Sometimes it just depends on the animal. Some do ok with less then perfect, others do not.

If you have a snake that ALWAYS has rough sheds and NEVER eats really well, husbandry is simply the first thing to double check.

If husbandry was spot on, and no new animals were brought in recently and there were no other obvious symptoms of URI or neurological, then it may have simply been an animal that was never really healthy, and it is just one of those things..

The fact that you seek answers, through a necropsy as well as here on this forum, shows that you are a caring and dedicated owner. We all continue to learn, reaching out is the first step. If you are willing to look into possibly husbandry related issues, post your setup, temps, and how you control and check it all.

Again, sorry for your loss, you had that baby for a while and its always difficult when they pass away, even more so when one doesn't know "why"..


edited to say, I wrote and posted before seeing the last update..

Oh and to comment on the depth of the water, no it was not super deep, it was at the level I normally would use for him. I just meant "big tub" as in the size of the bath tub compared to any others we've had in the past and also in comparison to the water dish he had. I had made too full in the past when we first got him (he was our first snake) so I knew he was not a fan of deep water. And I have put either a log or my hand to rest on in the past, but the second he went into the water he freaked so much that I held him by his upper half, but he still was panicking. Again, I do check the temps, so I'm certain it was not too hot.

Speaking of husbandry, while I do use a temp gun, I wonder, does anyone recommend a reliable in tank temp/humidity gauge? When we first got him 5 years ago we had those like $5-10 stick on gauges for humidity and temps, but it stopped working properly, so I switched to a gun as I found it more accurate. Perhaps there's one for in the tanks that lasts longer and maybe provide a very accurate reading like the gun does. I have just never trusted buying one that would last, so I never got any more, but maybe having a reliable one in their tanks constantly will provide a better idea of their tank status on a more consistant basis.

I have two of these now and recommend them above any other device. You stick the remote probe in the tub/tank and it takes about 30-45 minutes when first dropped in to acclimate then it is super accurate

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M252EWA

If it was poor husbandry, don’t beat yourself up! I find husbandry to be a huge amount of work, trying to keep a Tropical African reptile in temperate North America!
I have spent a fortune manipulating and monitoring temperature, humidity and housing security. And I STILL get concerned about their health and living standards.


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Originally Posted by pentacle_400

Well, he's the only one of my 4 snakes to have the shedding issue and all temps are checked with a temp gun, water is provided in one of those stone corner bowls, bedding varies between pine shavings and paper towels, which ever I have the most of at the time. Cage was a 30 gallon. He was fed outside of cage to avoid eating any subrate. Vet also mentioned parasites as a potential cause but never took a fecal to my knowledge. Bath water was also always checked with temp gun too. He didn't start out as a bad eater either, nor did he totally have shed issues in the beginning (He did have a handful of good sheds). We did move from Alabma to West Virginia and shortly before that is when he began to show signs of being picky (wouldn't eat rats and mice had to be white. Wouldn't touch a colored mouse for some reason.) Could the move, roughly a year and half into owning him, have effected him in some way? I don't have a humidity gauge of any kind at the moment, but it is notably humid in the room and they do get misted. It's just baffling that she didn't see anything. I mean if it was husbandry related, wouldn't his body have shown visible signs of some kind of stress or immune problems? Like if he was too hot or cold or dehydrated, wouldn't his organs/body have been deformed/shown some signs or this?? I mean, maybe not, I'm no vet or expert, but I would think something would have been visible.

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Husbandry not being spot on may not show in a necropsy. Unless the snake was grossly neglected, which it wasn't. It sounds to me like he simply wasn't a very healthy or thriving snake, with his ongoing issues. As to why? There aren't always good answers. He was probably smaller then average, perhaps somewhat "stunted". But not something very obvious to a vet.

It sounds as if you will not get any satisfying answers through the necropsy, I'm afraid :(

Ball Pythons stress easy. Stress is bad for health. We do know that much. Whether that was a factor in his death is you will probably not find out for sure, though.

How did you heat the enclosure ? Many people use heat lamps or ceramic heat emitters for glass tanks. They dry the air in the tank out completely, regardless of the humidity in the room. Pine shavings or paper also do not hold any humidity and easily mold if kept "wet" (misted). Substrates such as that work better if you can keep the humidity up without constant misting. (like in a tub)

I believe that may have something to do with the shedding issues. Even if the other snakes do better, some are just not as robust as others or as forgiving with less then ideal parameters.

Changing substrates often adds to stress. Ball Pythons don't like changes in routine. It "can" stress them. Also, paper or pine is quite different from one another. One can have more dust and a thicker layer over a heat source then the other. I would try to stick with one method and adjust husbandry (heat etc) to that method.

Removing the snake to another container to eat can also add stress. Again, some do fine with it. Others...not so much. In the wild a snake is most vulnerable while eating. It cannot defend itself during that time and it cannot get away from danger. Most BP want to feel "safe" before they will eat. Moving them can make the more shy ones reluctant to eat. Its also not ideal to handle one right after eating, which you have to do to move them back into their enclosure.

I am not meaning to criticize you or your snake keeping, please understand that. Its simply that Ball Pythons are shy snakes that often stress easy. And some husbandry methods stress more then others. Some snakes will be fine with that, others not. Whether that factored into his death, you may never know, though.

IBD kills fast (in Ball Pythons). Most other fatal diseases have definite symptoms. Such as severe respiratory issues, which you would have noticed before passing. There seems no obvious deformed organs or heart failure, as the vet would have seen during necropsy. There didn't seem to be a obvious infection or "wounds" to the snake. So..honestly, "I" would go with "weak, failing to thrive". Unless something happened during that last bath. Perhaps accidental breathing in of water? Not sure if that can happen with a snake. Can happen with most other animals and it would explain death a few hours later, as drowning can happen hours after being in the water. Not sure if the vet would have gone so far as to check for water in the lungs, or if that would even be obvious..

Again, sorry for your loss.

Sorry to reply again, but it won't let me edit this, but he also did have sufficently sized wooden hide in his tank. Also no trouble passing stools. No prolapse issues, straining, nor dry urates.

Some interesting reading.

I have NO idea if this is even possible in snakes. But they have lungs like other animals and they have a breathing tube and nostrils. Normally, when in the water, we automatically DON'T breathe, but perhaps he was startled and got water in his lungs or ???

"Delayed drowning, sometimes called secondary drowning, is a bit different. Water gets into the lungs in small amounts — not enough to disable breathing right away. Instead, it sits there and inhibits the lungs' ability to oxygenate blood. From there, the victim starts to have more and more trouble breathing over the course of several hours."

ps. I know, all this is a "long" shot, but with this snake being a problem child to begin with, it may have been weaker, and it may have literally inhaled a bit of water. Would explain the thrashing and subsequent passing away...perhaps a question for the vet?

Well, we do use heat lamps, but the room is not staying warm enough so we had been using an electric heater on low to keep the room from freezing. I never noticed any mold growth, which I had read before using pine shaving that that is a possibility. I have not used paper towels in some time though. What substrate do you recommend then for the others? I don't have any other balls though. He was our only one. I have a king snake, corn, and red tail now. And in comparison to other balls I have seen, he was always MUCH smaller than his same aged counter parts. I always found that troubling, but just assumed him to be the "runt" of his clutch. I didn't really think that was a huge issue as many animals can be smaller than their counterparts, but I guess that maybe could have meant something was not right from the start. And she did specifially mention his lungs looked fine as I had told her about the ri he had once. I also told her that when we went to put him in the Ziploc bad that his head tipped down and liquid had come out. It wasn't discolored or thick. Seems to be water. She stated he could have drank not long before death, but never said that she found water in his lungs. He did die partially wrapped around his water dish with his head under him. I know he died in that position as his blood pooled into his upper portion, causing his mouth to appear bruised. We also worry he could have broken his neck or something on his own body or water dish, but she never mentioned finding any broken bones, which I assume she would have examined those.

I'll indeed ask her about that! Thank you! Although this says "hours" after inhaling it, and his bath was about a week or two before his death. But they probably don't breathe as heavily or as often as other animals since they are sneaky hunter types that usually have to breathe slower and with stealth, so perhaps that still might be a theory?

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Originally Posted by SDA

I have two of these now and recommend them above any other device. You stick the remote probe in the tub/tank and it takes about 30-45 minutes when first dropped in to acclimate then it is super accurate

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M252EWA

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Just saw this reply! Thank you! I'll be ordering 4 of these! (I have a bearded dragon too, so won't hurt to put one in her tank as well!)

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Originally Posted by pentacle_400

Well, we do use heat lamps, but the room is not staying warm enough so we had been using an electric heater on low to keep the room from freezing. I never noticed any mold growth, which I had read before using pine shaving that that is a possibility. I have not used paper towels in some time though. What substrate do you recommend then for the others? I don't have any other balls though. He was our only one. I have a king snake, corn, and red tail now. And in comparison to other balls I have seen, he was always MUCH smaller than his same aged counter parts. I always found that troubling, but just assumed him to be the "runt" of his clutch. I didn't really think that was a huge issue as many animals can be smaller than their counterparts, but I guess that maybe could have meant something was not right from the start. And she did specifially mention his lungs looked fine as I had told her about the ri he had once. I also told her that when we went to put him in the Ziploc bad that his head tipped down and liquid had come out. It wasn't discolored or thick. Seems to be water. She stated he could have drank not long before death, but never said that she found water in his lungs. He did die partially wrapped around his water dish with his head under him. I know he died in that position as his blood pooled into his upper portion, causing his mouth to appear bruised. We also worry he could have broken his neck or something on his own body or water dish, but she never mentioned finding any broken bones, which I assume she would have examined those.

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Wait a minute, you used PINE for substrate, I thought that was toxic. You may have your answer right there.
The snake was accidentally poisoned.

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Pine is only toxic untreated. Treated aka kiln dried pine is no more toxic than aspen shavings. They don't sell untreated pine shavings anymore for animals.

Edit: that being said if they did somehow use fresh untreated pine shavings then they did put their animal at risk.

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Originally Posted by SDA

Pine is only toxic untreated. Treated aka kiln dried pine is no more toxic than aspen shavings. They don't sell untreated pine shavings anymore for animals.

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Hm, I doubt that. There would still be toxic pine oils in kiln dried. I don’t know, I would never risk it.


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For Ball Pythons or any reptile that has higher humidity needs and lives in a tank I prefer any of the coco substrates !! They can be misted and tend to hold on to the humidity longer without molding.

Ball Pythons can be most rewarding snakes, but also most frustrating. While their most pressing needs are actually quite simple once figured out and dialed in, those needs are very important to them and they seem less forgiving then other species. Part of that is their shy and easily stressed nature. Heat/humidity all need to be correct but they also need to feel safe.

Some Ball Pythons will choose "safe" over the needed temperature, or over food.

Meaning, if they only feel safe in the cool end of their tank, they may hang out there, even though they need to be warmer. Which can cause havoc on digestion. If they even eat at all, not having the privacy they seek.

Tanks can be made to work for Ball Pythons. Its just a little more work to get everything working well. I prefer substrate, esp. coco substrate (whether fine like dirt, chunky or the golden middle, like Reptile Prime) You can mist part of it daily if needed (leave some dry areas for the snake)

Under tank heater. Controlled by a thermostat, which is a MUST. The temperature inside of the tank, right above the heat source (not measured on top of substrate) should be between 90 to 93 degrees. The layer of substrate shouldn't be to thick, so that the snake can wiggle down to get warmer or stay on top to be cooler. If you measure on top of the substrate, the heat below may be to high, and if your snake burrows down it can get burned.

Ambient (air) temperature in the tank and on the cooler side shouldn't fall below high seventies at the lowest.

Privacy is a BIG thing for BP's. You should have hides in the warm and cooler end. So they do not choose their favorite hide over being warm enough or cool enough. "Blacken" out the sides and back of the tank by gluing and taping dark paper on the outside. Cover the top as much as possible (around lamp, etc) You want some air flow, but you also want to create a "cave" of some sort, so they feel safer.

Feed inside of the tank. The small bits of substrate they may ingest are less of a problem then moving a Ball Python around during the time they crave safety at the most.

You can re-use the tank you had for your next Ball Python. I think you would do perfectly fine with another one. Just sanitize that tank thoroughly first and don't reuse any deco.
Your chances of success are higher if you go with a hatchling from a reputable breeder. Pick a nice, well established one with a bit of size to it. :)

Oh no don't get me wrong, I will never use soft wood shavings and never anything but coco fiber for my ball python. I wouldn't risk it. Kiln dried pine shavings would not cause a negative necropsy if they were the culprit. The liver would be enlarged and there most likely would be tumors which I think if I read right, showed negative in the necropsy.

So what I am really saying here is pine can be ruled out because lungs, liver, and internal organs showed normal which wouldn't if pine oils were to blame ;)

To put his into a new post as a thought... shock.

Reptiles, especially snakes do not respond to rapid temperature changes well. Ball pythons can withstand pretty severe temperature gradients so long as they are raised or lowered gradually. A sudden rapid change in temperature such as a body temp of 70 something degrees from a cooler tank quickly dumped into what feels like luke warm water but might be 90+ degrees is a rapid shock to the system. Now I am not being any expert here but just speculating due to the statement of a snake thrashing in water.

This snake could already have had a weakened immune system and if put into a rapid temperature change could have gone into shock. The fatality of it might not happen right away but it could lead to the snake's demise. This might not show in a basic necropsy because it would require enzyme and blood chemistry that is already difficult to get in a live snake, let alone a deceased one.

It is crucially important to know the actual temperature of not only your snake's enclosure but your snake. Unexpected and sudden temperature spikes can be fatal to a snake, especially one that might be weak from illness or stress to begin with.

Well, it says aspen bedding. Like the kind at the pet store for hamsters. I researched it before using it and I never read anything about it being toxic. That's why I used it. I know cedar is, so I won't even buy that at all even for house things or candles. I've used it after the ri. If it were toxic, wouldn't it have killed him way faster than 5 years?? We did have under the tank heat mats, but they kept unsticking, so we just used lights and kept the room warm all of the time.

Gosh, I didn't notice him being cold before the bath and the water wasn't that hot, but if that's a possibility, could that have actually caused his death nearly 2 weeks later?? And also, I do not plan to have any more animals period. I already went through our mouse passing away from heart failure a few years back and that made me decide no more. I couldn't handle any more passing away. They're my children and it hurts to see them pass. I never dreamed he would be the next to go. I have a ferret a family member gave me that they weren't taking care of and I found out she was sick and would have died without us. She has adrenal disease and it's incurable, only manageable. I know she will pass sooner than she probably should, so I always expected her to be next and prepared myself for that. I never dreamed a snake who is supposed to live 20-30 years would be next. I feel like any of them could pass away any day now. It's terrible. So, no more animals. I hope they are able to run even some tests on his tissue samples so I might have some answers. Coco fibers you say? Well, I do use that for my tarantula and I think I have 2 bricks leftover. I'll use that on my other snakes then. I'm sure they'll love it and it probably keeps pretty warm compared to the shavings or paper towels. I mever thought to use that for the snakes though. I'll definitely find those bricks tomorrow if I still have them or order some more. Thanks! And that's why I used the electric heater in the room, because it was getting well below 70 in there this time of year even with our heat on at night. And I have to keep the door shut or our cat will go in there and jump on the tanks. But as far as the rest go, those recommended temp gauges are on their way and coco fibers will replace what I have been using and I'll also invest in new under the tank mats. If they unstuck again, I'll just buy more! It'll be worth it to ensure temps are spot on and that if any of that played a factor in Naginis passing, it won't happen to anyone else! I still can't help but feel it was partly my fault somehow, even though I did everything I thought right and researched non stop, and partly something he was either born with or acquired before I got him. He just never seemed like any other ball python I have seen. Much smaller than the rest....I feel like that had to be a reason even if I'll never know for sure.

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Originally Posted by pentacle_400

Well, it says aspen bedding. Like the kind at the pet store for hamsters. I researched it before using it and I never read anything about it being toxic. That's why I used it. I know cedar is, so I won't even buy that at all even for house things or candles. I've used it after the ri. If it were toxic, wouldn't it have killed him way faster than 5 years?? We did have under the tank heat mats, but they kept unsticking, so we just used lights and kept the room warm all of the time.

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Before you said pine, now you say aspen. They are two entirely different trees, so you are confusing me now.
If it is aspen then it is not toxic, not the problem.


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I'm sorry I meant aspen. I thought they were the same thing. I thought it was like an interchangeable thing. I assumed aspen bedding was pine. That's what I've always called it anyhow. I don't know trees apparently. Sorry.