My bp died!

I'll start from the beginning.. early October we got our sweet lil buddy, Dexter, from (I know) PetSmart. He was healthy, friendly and super sweet. We truly loved him, then wanted to get him a friend. Because they were a couple weeks apart from being together we just kept them in the same tank together. They were both healthy, eating normal and striking at their food very quickly. The last time Dexter ate was Halloween night.
I tried weekly after that to feed him and he just wouldn't take it. He always looked interested in his food but would just want to get out of his feeding tank instead. He was still friendly and loving, also pooping normal. Then one evening, knowing he hadn't eaten in about 3.5 weeks, I passed his tank and he was fat as ever so I grabbed him out.
If you were to envision their bodies into 3rds, the first part felt normal and stiff.. the 2nd where he was fat was puffed up like a balloon! Then his tail end was completely limp. We started reading up on what it could be, at first i thought he was blocked up, even though I saw him pooping a lot over time. So, I gave him a warm bath, he would float so I had to really help him. Once I took him out and put him in a towel, I snuggled him. My husband started reading about IBD and started thinking that's what was happening. I cried and cried and told him I was so sorry I didn't know he was sick, I didn't want him to suffer anymore, and 3 seconds later he died in my hands. He returned to his normal size. (He was still a juvenile, about 1.5ft, his thickest was a little over an inch in diameter.)
We sent him to the state lab, they did the physical exam on him, they called and said he looked completely healthy so they were gonna send him off to the big lab in a big city... This is where it gets weird and sorry so long, but where my question begins....
They called me back 2 weeks later (just the other day) and told me his cultures came back all normal. There was absolutely no sign of IBD. Wth killed my buddy??? Their husbandry was a lil more humid because Vega went through a shed but Dexter stayed in the drier part and I specifically asked the vet who did the physical exam if he showed any signs of a RI... nothing.
Vega is alone, I had to take all their 'furniture' out until I got his results back but kept her warm and cozy.. we moved, she just went through a shed. Now she's not wanting to eat. It is the starts of cold weather so it could be a number of things. My bps are and were very social, nothing has changed with Vega's want for love but I'm worried about her because she's not eating and that's how it began with Dexter! Any thoughts? Please someone tell me they had some kinda problem like this! Thank you!!

I dont have an answer for you about dexter, but do not get vega another friend because ball pythons are solitary reptiles, and it has been many weeks already but if you have not I would completely clean her enclosure to prevent any issues spreading to her.. Another tip, you do not have to have a feeding enclosure it just adds more stress.

As for not feeding, what is your enclosure like husbandry wise, and how do you prepare your feeders + what are their seizes?

Sorry for you loss :(

do not ever house two beeps in one enclosure. ever. EVER.

aside from you breaking normal quarantine procedures that are required when owning more than one reptile, beeps do NOT like being around each other. they will constantly compete for the best resources and spots in the enclosure.

i would keep an eye out on your other snake. whatever killed the one might end up killing the other.

Please accept my condolences. It's very hard to impress on people the real importance of quarantine let alone housing ball pythons in the same enclosure. Quarantine is your first line of defense to view any abnormalities, illnesses, or irregularities in new acquisitions. It also is a protection for you, your animal, and existing collection. Once that defense is breeched you are at risk. You already know that the big box stores are notorious for poor healthy practices. Chalk it up to a unfortunate experience sadly and learn from it. Always buy from reputable breeders who are committed to producing healthy, quality animals. They are right here on this forum. Again, sorry for your loss.

When I was 10 years old, I took in a stray puppy because hey that's what any caring little girl would do. What I didn't know was this poor unfortunate little lost soul just happened to have distemper. The horror of going through losing 3 dogs over what I thought was an act of compassion taught me the most valuable lesson about quarantining animals. Of course 10 year old me didn't know at the time how that would impact my life but I have never introduced a new animal to existing pets without isolating them since.

I am so sorry for your loss no matter the situation or the cause. It is heartbreaking to lose a pet and even more so when you do not know what you could have done to possibly save them.

I do hope you learn the lesson of avoiding big chain reptiles at all costs and I also hope this does not sour you on reptile husbandry because these animals are amazing and are worth any effort.

Sorry for your loss hope your other sweet noodle stays nice and healthy

Thank you all for your comments. I do know where I went wrong in some ways but what I'm really wondering is what killed him, because I got him tested and everything... Nothing came up and by his symptoms, i can find nothing relatable. I appreciate everyone's concern on my first go around with a mystery bp death but all I really wanna know is if anyone knows what in the world it could have been. I do want another but not for a long time of finding a good dealer etc etc

Sorry for your loss :tears:

I am sorry for your loss. Now snakes really aren't the kind of animals that should be snuggled and hugged and what have you. You also don't need to feed them in another tank, there is no reason to move them to feed. I would also take your remaining bp to a vet, as you don't know what killed your first one. Ball pythons are not social animals and should not be housed together. Not trying to be harsh I'm just trying to help.

If the lab did not find anything, then it's up to finding out what husbandry issues may exist. What is your complete set up?

What type of heat? If a bulb, what size bulb? What size cage? How many hides? What kind of substrate? What cleaners do you use?

With two BPs in one tank, it could even have been some injury caused by them wrestling over a spot(they don't "cuddle", it's a dominance thing. It could have been something brought in from outside that he caught. It could have been the last prey item he ate wasn't completely defrosted, or had some bad bacteria and he just held out a long time before passing away.

None of what you described seems like IBD to me. Generally ball pythons die pretty quickly after exposure too, so I doubt that's it, in addition to the lab saying they found no signs.

It's always sad to lose a pet. People sometimes say "well, it's just a snake" but it's still a beloved pet and extremely sad, just like any pet. Sometimes pythons just "roll over and die" for what seems like no reason at all. But it's always best to double-check all the parameters, just in case there's something to change.

Compaction maybe ??


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Originally Posted by hmba2211

Thank you all for your comments. I do know where I went wrong in some ways but what I'm really wondering is what killed him, because I got him tested and everything... Nothing came up and by his symptoms, i can find nothing relatable. I appreciate everyone's concern on my first go around with a mystery bp death but all I really wanna know is if anyone knows what in the world it could have been. I do want another but not for a long time of finding a good dealer etc etc

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Sorry for your lose. Maybe it was something he ate.

What where you feeding your snake? Live or F/T?

I'm qurious if you were using the individual frozen mice they also sell at petsmart.

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Originally Posted by hmba2211

They called me back 2 weeks later (just the other day) and told me his cultures came back all normal. There was absolutely no sign of IBD. Wth killed my buddy??? Their husbandry was a lil more humid because Vega went through a shed but Dexter stayed in the drier part and I specifically asked the vet who did the physical exam if he showed any signs of a RI... nothing.
Vega is alone, I had to take all their 'furniture' out until I got his results back but kept her warm and cozy.. we moved, she just went through a shed. Now she's not wanting to eat. It is the starts of cold weather so it could be a number of things. My bps are and were very social, nothing has changed with Vega's want for love but I'm worried about her because she's not eating and that's how it began with Dexter! Any thoughts? Please someone tell me they had some kinda problem like this! Thank you!!

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What exactly did they check in the necropsy? It seems odd for me to hear a vet doing a culture on a single dead snake. From the symptoms you describe, it doesn't sound like a case of IBD, though it can manifest atypically. It would still be pretty likely to observe inclusion bodies in for example, the liver if the disease was advanced enough to kill the snake. As much as many of us (myself included) fear IBD, it is pretty rare to see snakes die from it. Ophidian paramyxovirus would be more likely, if the culprit were a pathogen, though I would expect your other BP to have also been exposed (no guarantee there however).

Given your description, it sounds like an obstruction to me, but you would expect that to be fairly obvious from a necropsy.

Very sorry for your loss.

I do see a few red signs, as have the others. You got VERY young Ball Pythons. They weren't kept in optimal husbandry. Even if heat and humidity was correct and you did have snug hides, the fact that 2 snakes had to compete for certain areas in the tank can spell disaster.

You talk a lot about how "sweet" and cuddly they were and how the remaining snake still has a "want" for love. What looks like sweet and cuddly, is a submissive and shy animal. Handling to much in the beginning and while they are so young can really stress the snakes and stress has a detrimental effect on the general health and immune system. That actually goes for any animal and even humans.

Its stress on them to compete for the best spot in the tank, its stressful to be removed for feeding, its stressful to be handled to much.

What exactly happened ? Not sure, but to me it sounds like something went wrong with digestion. These are cold blooded animals. After a meal they need to seek out a certain temperature during digestion, to make sure everything moves out quick enough. If a snake gets to "cold" during that process, the digestion moves to slow and the food begins to "rot" inside the body.

Even though it was 3 1/2 weeks after a feeding that the snake died, it could have still been food items that didn't digest correctly. Even though the snake still "pooped" , doesn't mean there wasn't a problem further up in the system. (meaning the spoiling food item was behind the poop that was expelled)

Perhaps this snake couldn't get on the "prime" hot spot, meaning hot AND safe (hot side hide). Perhaps the other snake was more dominant and wouldn't move. Even if this just happened for part of the time, it could have been just enough to cause disruption in the digestion and the problem started. Gasses could have formed and internal issues with the gut. It could also explain the "bloating".

This might have gotten missed during necropsy because partly digested food items are often found in the system, there is no way to know for the doctor if that item should have been more digested then it was, at that point. Unless there was severe damage to the gut.

You may never know for sure, but the combination of stressors lowering the immune system and less then ideal husbandry (heat) during digestion could have caused the issues.

What's done is done, though. I would now concentrate on the surviving snake and make sure to set it up as perfect as possible. The refusal to eat is most likely due to stress. Fix the husbandry. There is tons of help on here how to provide the perfect setup, temps and humidity. After that, make sure the snake feels SAFE. Meaning, provide perfect privacy and safety. Hides, Blacked out sides, back and top of tank. NO MORE HANDLING until the snake eats well again. Disturb only during maintenance and cleaning and to check on the snake.

I bet you that should be enough to fix the issue.

Please ask the vet if they checked for worms and protozoans (Giardia, etc). I think they would, but you never know..

Ok, I appreciate all the comments but once again this is not my first go around. What IS my first is my buddy dying the way he did. If anyone has actual info on his midbody being bloated n tail limp n 5 mins later dying, then please comment. Everyone handles their snakes differently but yes, I do love on mine and they love me back. They both wait in the front of their tank for me to get them so the comments on how I shouldn't be messing w them makes me laugh, u do what u want w urs but I know my pets. What I don't know is how he died n can find nothing on it. Thanks again tho

hmba2211 I would suggest that you re-read Zina10's post. I agree with what she said. This sounds like a digestion issue gone wrong. This could be caused by: Bad feeder, not enough access to correct hot-side temps, parasites, and stress would compound those factors.

When you said that you had the snake "tested", what exactly do you mean by that? Did you have a vet preform a necropsy? Did you have the snake checked by a vet while still alive? Did they run a lab test for parasites, etc.?

Others have already covered quarantine, etc. so I won't retread that ground. I would stress that common practice with young snakes or new snakes is to not handle them until they have eaten well 3-4 times in a row. During that time period, you do not handle and only interact to change water, clean up waste, etc. Any time you have a food refusal, this process is repeated and you do not handle until the snake is eating well again.

If your current snake is still refusing food, I would do everything possible to limit its' stress and to make sure the temps. humidity, etc. are on point. I would also take it in to the vet to have a culture done for parasites (unless you already had that done on the deceased snake).

I understand that you are reacting defensively to people commenting about your situation and husbandry practices, but know that they are only trying to help you improve the situation for your current snake. These are knowledgeable keepers and breeders and are only trying to provide you with constructive criticism to help your current snake thrive, not to "bash" you. At this point, it is important to attempt to figure out what happened to your last snake and you are getting that feedback from people about that. If the feedback is different than what you expected, it is still important to consider it. Honestly, I don't see any signs of IBD from what you described in your original post, so I'd take that off the list.

I see what everyone is saying I'm not being defensive, I'm trying to get an answer... If anyone has come across this problem. Not can u help me find where I went wrong w my husbandry. Literally, that was n has been my question. Bash on if u feel lol but I'm only wondering what caused his belly/lungs to inflate w air and his tail limp. The necropsy came back all normal, death undetermined by lab testing. As I said before, the only difference in my husbandry at the time was a slight increase of humidity. Thank youuuuuu

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Originally Posted by hmba2211

I see what everyone is saying I'm not being defensive, I'm trying to get an answer... If anyone has come across this problem. Not can u help me find where I went wrong w my husbandry. Literally, that was n has been my question. Bash on if u feel lol but I'm only wondering what caused his belly/lungs to inflate w air and his tail limp. The necropsy came back all normal, death undetermined by lab testing. As I said before, the only difference in my husbandry at the time was a slight increase of humidity. Thank youuuuuu

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Hi again, even if one of us had a similar scenario of illness there would be so many variables that it would be impossble to know exactly. Maybe you didn't go wrong with the husbandry? Maybe it was the housing of the snakes together and bc of the difference in their flora and fauna a illness was contracted that got overlooked by the testing that was done? Listen, we have no control over the morbidity and mortality of these animals. All we can do is offer good care and husbandry along with proper quarantining. Sudden death is a reality with all living organisms. Maybe we will never know specifically what the etiology was. We may have to just learn from it and do things differently in the future to try and avoid a recurrence. :gj:

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Originally Posted by hmba2211

I'm trying to get an answer... If anyone has come across this problem. Not can u help me find where I went wrong w my husbandry.

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husbandry and health go hand in hand; you can't ask a health-related question without husbandry being brought into the question. bad husbandry = bad health. the problem was bad husbandry, and the result was a dead snake. now we're providing you with info on how to avoid killing another snake.

start here, because you need to re-learn some basics:
caresheet
basic husbandry FAQs
the quarantine process

I thank u for that. As I stated a couple days ago, I know where I went wrong (I was in the middle of a move too) with their tank and putting them together. It gets irritating when ppl don't read what I'm asking about. Lots of u on here actually tried helping w an answer but some tried to tell me what I'm doing by loving them is wrong. Wrong. It's not like I handled them all day every day, when I did they'd chill w me n snuggle. Everyone knows their animals. U know when it's time to put em back lol I will say this too, everyone, and I do mean everyone, has been a great help! If anyone else wants to comment plz just keep it at the answer to what may have happened bc they've had a similar incident... I know all I need to do n what I needed to do differently. Thanks guys

Alright thank u. Bye now.

"Bash on"?

Who has bashed you? Do you think people have nothing better to do then sit here and type out a long reply in order to tick you off or bash you?

You DID say you were worried that the second snake would also get sick , as it is now "not eating", as well. So yes, that was part of your post. And health/dying has a lot to do with husbandry/keeping. Oftentimes it is DIRECTLY related.

So how is one to answer your question without pointing out the possible factors with husbandry? We have no crystal ball. Bloating/limpness can be a symptom of a myriad of issues. Sometimes they are simply a symptom of "dying". Without some detective work and finding some parallels no-one can even begin to make a guess.

So yes, your original question was answered as best as people could. On top of that it was pointed out what you could to to avoid the other snake going downhill.

You've had those snakes what...2 month or so? One is dead and one refusing food. Rather then telling people that they are "wrong" and you know you animals and what they like and dislike you could appreciate everyone's caring and time to answer you and maybe just think about the suggestions.

The first thing ANY experienced Ball Python keeper will tell you is to REDUCE stress if your BP refuses food. And to stop handling until they are eating well. Any handling. Despite what you read into their behavior.

You have 30+ year to cuddle them, once they are healthy, thriving and eating.

No-one posts these replies just to tick someone off or to "bash them". Most people just care about the animals.

But do as you please.

If the necropsy was inconclusive, unfortunately no one will ever be able to pinpoint an exact cause of death and as such, people can only point out issues that need fixed. As Zina noted, bloating and limpness are signs that can present due to a variety of issues. One of the possibilities is fluid build-up due to organ failure. Organ failure itself can be due to a number of issues including an advanced bacterial infection, some viral infections, dehydration, or a number of other issues. Obstructions should have been noted in a necropsy, so it likely was not that.

Stress itself can kill - it's something we generally think of as a feeling, but it is a set of hormonal changes and as Zina noted, it lowers the immune response, and it also has a number of other repercussions on all systems even including the pulmonary system.

At the end of the day, the person who is best situated to provide any sort of answer on what it may or may not have been that killed your snake is the examining vet. The vet will know exactly what was and was not tested and looked for during the necropsy and what bacteria and viruses were tested for from cultures. If you specifically ask, they may be willing to provide their most likely suspected guesses on it even though the results are such that you will not know. With the inconclusive necropsy results I received, I personally tossed anything and everything that came in contact with the snake as viral was still very much on the table since they cannot culture for everything. There are also microscopic parasites out there that bleach doesn't kill.

I am lately obsessed with husbandry and dropping money left and right to fine tune my snakes environment. Even since I decided to branch out beyond one snake and collect some as well as breed in the future, I have an entire room dedicated to the little buggers. I run a space heater, a humidifier, a heater snake rack with perfectly sized tubs and hides, and perfectly measured temps with a top thermometer, . Just bought a new thermostat, built a hatchling rack for future additions... it’s like a never ending expensive science project, but keeping my snakes in top health is THAT important to me. Not only are they my beloved pets, they are an investment, as I’ve spent quite a bit not only on the animals themselves, but on the high-tech husbandry tools. Not to mention, they are worth even more financially when you consider the breeding potential.
The fact is, they NEED a very fine-tuned environment to thrive, as it’s difficult to recreate a termite mound in Northern Africa forests, in the average human home!

sorry for your loss, but fearing death of my pets is precisely why I spend so much energy, time and money on my snakes husbandry. Not to mention hundrends of hours reading and watching research videos.

Hey zina, calm urself... I said what I said about bashing bc someone else assumed I was getting defensive and being bashed. U don't need to comment on this post anymore. I have thanked every one of u. Now ur just getting silly. I understand everything any of u have said!!!!!!!! Let's just calm down and nobody needs to get so ridiculous. I definitely made a mistake to ask anyone anything. I haven't even commented back on my husbandry bc I know from what everyone has said, I've had done n going on perfectly the entire time. The humidity on one side of my large tank was more, I have double thermostats and humidity on both sides. Dexter was in his hide, safe n healthy. The only problem I know I could have possibly created was keeping him n Vega in the same tank. Let's keep our hormones on the low n have a civil discussion... I have said multiple times and lastly will say again, THANK YOU. unless u have an answer please stop commenting back. There's no fight or argument. Clearly I was dumb to ask anything but I still appreciate the ppl that helped me out! Vega ate so she's good. Thank u

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Originally Posted by hmba2211

Hey zina, calm urself... I said what I said about bashing bc someone else assumed I was getting defensive and being bashed. U don't need to comment on this post anymore. I have thanked every one of u. Now ur just getting silly. I understand everything any of u have said!!!!!!!! Let's just calm down and nobody needs to get so ridiculous. I definitely made a mistake to ask anyone anything. I haven't even commented back on my husbandry bc I know from what everyone has said, I've had done n going on perfectly the entire time. The humidity on one side of my large tank was more, I have double thermostats and humidity on both sides. Dexter was in his hide, safe n healthy. The only problem I know I could have possibly created was keeping him n Vega in the same tank. Let's keep our hormones on the low n have a civil discussion... I have said multiple times and lastly will say again, THANK YOU. unless u have an answer please stop commenting back. There's no fight or argument. Clearly I was dumb to ask anything but I still appreciate the ppl that helped me out! Vega ate so she's good. Thank u

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It is never dumb to ask a question. You only went wrong in the way you reacted because you didn't like the answers but these answers were given to you based on what is known and given by people with way more experience then you. So instead of getting defensive, you should just read, learn and say thank you. You may never know why your pet died but at least you can learn from the responses and hopefully avoid the same fate for your other snake. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by hmba2211

Bash on if u feel lol

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My hormones are just fine, and perhaps you should take your own advice! You are not able to offend me, however you may try. This place is not one for drama, you will find that out soon enough.

And if you post on a public forum, you can not and may not dictate or forbid replies. That is the moderators job ;)

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Originally Posted by hmba2211

Hey zina, calm urself... I said what I said about bashing bc someone else assumed I was getting defensive and being bashed. U don't need to comment on this post anymore. I have thanked every one of u. Now ur just getting silly. I understand everything any of u have said!!!!!!!! Let's just calm down and nobody needs to get so ridiculous. I definitely made a mistake to ask anyone anything. I haven't even commented back on my husbandry bc I know from what everyone has said, I've had done n going on perfectly the entire time. The humidity on one side of my large tank was more, I have double thermostats and humidity on both sides. Dexter was in his hide, safe n healthy. The only problem I know I could have possibly created was keeping him n Vega in the same tank. Let's keep our hormones on the low n have a civil discussion... I have said multiple times and lastly will say again, THANK YOU. unless u have an answer please stop commenting back. There's no fight or argument. Clearly I was dumb to ask anything but I still appreciate the ppl that helped me out! Vega ate so she's good. Thank u

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Everyone is just trying to help and they're right to ask about your husbandry. A lot of things can be caused with improper care. Nobody is saying you're doing everything wrong but no one knows if you're doing things right either without pictures or anything. You said you wanted to find out what could have caused it? Well explaining your setup is a good start. trust these people because they've had tons of experience and we all make mistakes. So maybe what you think is right really isn't...I'm not saying that to attack you at all but people make mistakes. Who here hasnt? So we admit them and we fix them and in the end we learn from them. People want to help but they can't if you don't give them enough information

Breathe in. Breathe out. Then reply.

Ok guys that's what I'm saying to yal.. calm it down!!! I'll never ask a question again that's for certain. There have been helpful ppl on here and I'll private message them bc they aren't being rude

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Originally Posted by hmba2211

Ok guys that's what I'm saying to yal.. calm it down!!! I'll never ask a question again that's for certain. There have been helpful ppl on here and I'll private message them bc they aren't being rude

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not being told what you want to hear =/= rude. literally not a single person in this thread has been rude.

you are not stupid. you did not make a mistake by posting. you absolutely need to keep asking questions because, from your OP, you have much more room to learn and grow. but first, you need to learn to accept the criticism and advice handed down from those of us with years of experience. you may not always get an answer you like, and advice may not always be packaged in a friendly light-hearted response, but i promise it will be an answer from someone trying to help you and your buddy out.

please stick around, keep asking questions, and LEARN! we're all here to learn and grow together, and that means you too. :)

Why dare you so against people asking about husbandry? You gave several red flags, it sounded like you were handling them a lot, keeping them together, and several other peoblems. I seriously doubt that if you didn't research enough to do these basic things that every thing else just happened to be perfectly on point. Stress is the reason people were saying not to "cuddle" a snake. That suggests that you handle them a lot even though they are very young. So seriously, if you want help, your husbandry has to be critiqued. As said earlier bad husbandry = bad health. If you don't like hearing that that doesn't make it bashing. It can not possibly hurt you for people to HELP YOU, however, it can hurt your snake or any new snake you might acquire in the future.

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Originally Posted by tegu

Why dare you so against people asking about husbandry? You gave several red flags, it sounded like you were handling them a lot, keeping them together, and several other peoblems. I seriously doubt that if you didn't research enough to do these basic things that every thing else just happened to be perfectly on point. Stress is the reason people were saying not to "cuddle" a snake. That suggests that you handle them a lot even though they are very young. So seriously, if you want help, your husbandry has to be critiqued. As said earlier bad husbandry = bad health. If you don't like hearing that that doesn't make it bashing. It can not possibly hurt you for people to HELP YOU, however, it can hurt your snake or any new snake you might acquire in the future.

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Are* I have no idea why autocorrect keeps changing that.

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This has been, for very sad and unfortunate reasons, a very interesting thread to me.

I am struck at how so many people are trying to be helpful to the OP's situation and, also, with the responses of the OP. The failure to connect, it appears, is that the OP appears to be suffering from the "tunnel vision" that comes with traumatic loss and doesn't even recognize it, and that most of the folks replying to the OP's threads, while genuinely trying to help, do not appear to have factored that "tunnel vision" into their responses.

You are all discussing the same situation, but it's like you're coming at it from two different planes of existence. Anyone who has dealt with folks suffering from gut-wrenching grief knows exactly what I'm talking about. A bit over-dramatic? Perhaps. An opportunity for a relevant learning experience? Definitely.

<><Peace