Is Major a normal?

I bought a BP a few weeks ago and was told he is a normal het pied. My cousin has said he isn't a normal as he is far too light and don't have patterns that normals have. The pictures aint perfect as he wouldn't stay still to get a decent pic. Could someone please tell me if he is normal or not? If you need any other pics of him, just let me know and i will try and take some. Thanks in advance.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1a5768023d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...4e76971083.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...48744d96c5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...903b892956.jpg

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...maybe a browned-out Pastel?

Pictures are very blurry but he looks like he might be a browned out pastel. What color are the eyes?

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Originally Posted by mdb730

Pictures are very blurry but he looks like he might be a browned out pastel. What color are the eyes?

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His eyes are hazel.

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Looks like a browned out pastel to me. Double check his eyes, they should be green.

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Originally Posted by PythonBabes

Looks like a browned out pastel to me. Double check his eyes, they should be green.

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Certainly not green. I will try and take a clearer pic of them.

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Definitely at least a Pastel.

If he was purchased as a Normal het Pied and the "Normal" part is in question (which it is), I would be questioning the "het Pied" part as well if I were in your shoes. Just some food for thought.

Hazel is close enough. Pastel

They do have a hint of green in them. My mrs says they are yellowy-green.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...0e87ce0b93.jpg

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Definitely at least a Pastel.

If he was purchased as a Normal het Pied and the "Normal" part is in question (which it is), I would be questioning the "het Pied" part as well if I were in your shoes. Just some food for thought.

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I have heard that it is difficult to know if a BP is het pied or not. I hear about "tram lines" on the tail, but i'm not sure what they look like. How can i find out? I don't have the guys number who i bought him off.

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Yup pastel, bright green eyes.

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Originally Posted by Stocksy

I have heard that it is difficult to know if a BP is het pied or not. I hear about "tram lines" on the tail, but i'm not sure what they look like. How can i find out? I don't have the guys number who i bought him off.

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You can post a picture of his belly towards the tail end and we can help point them out to you (if they are there).

Realistically, the "tram lines" (or "train tracks") are not a guarantee of anything. Both het Pieds and non-het Pieds are capable of showing these same markers. Seeing them would make me feel better about the animal I bought as a Normal het Pied though. :)

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

You can post a picture of his belly towards the tail end and we can help point them out to you (if they are there).

Realistically, the "tram lines" (or "train tracks") are not a guarantee of anything. Both het Pieds and non-het Pieds are capable of showing these same markers. Seeing them would make me feel better about the animal I bought as a Normal het Pied though. :)

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I will get a pic up later.

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Pastel I'd say too.

Did you but the spider from the same seller? If not we really need to talk about your quarantine routine **winces**

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Originally Posted by dr del [emoji173

️;2573820]Pastel I'd say too.

Did you but the spider from the same seller? If not we really need to talk about your quarantine routine **winces**

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No i didn't. I have had Kia a good few months now. Quarentine routine?

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Yes quarantine. They shouldn't be near each other for about three months. An oops can cost vet bills is the four digit range.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Yes quarantine. They shouldn't be near each other for about three months. An oops can cost vet bills is the four digit range.

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That was only the 2nd time they have been close to each other like that. I always take them out and handle them one at a time. I wash my hands before and inbetween each handle too.

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Washing your hands is good. Use a disinfectant on your hands as well. Do not share anything including tools between the two enclosures. Ideally they should not even be in the same room. Reptile metabolisms are very slow. It can take months for an illness to show up. Many collectors have two entirely different environments. One for the permanent collection another for quarantine.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Washing your hands is good. Use a disinfectant on your hands as well. Do not share anything including tools between the two enclosures. Ideally they should not even be in the same room. Reptile metabolisms are very slow. It can take months for an illness to show up. Many collectors have to entirely different environments. One for the permanent collection another for quarantine.

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I use the same spray on my hands that i clean their RUBs out with. Nothing is shared between them. Not even the water i wash their stuff in. They are in seperate rooms, but i'm hoping to covert a cupboard into a reptile den.

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Sounds like you are doing the right thing, just don't have them near each other or crawling over the same surfaces.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Sounds like you are doing the right thing, just don't have them near each other or crawling over the same surfaces.

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I wont. How long should they stay apart for? I would like to breed them next year once i increase my knowledge about them.

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Originally Posted by Stocksy

I wont. How long should they stay apart for? I would like to breed them next year once i increase my knowledge about them.

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I quarantine for three months. Here is a thread on the subject. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...antine-process

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I quarantine for three months. Here is a thread on the subject. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...antine-process

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I didn't realise people went all out putting snakes in quarentine. Mine are basically quarentined. Lol. They are in seperate rooms, have their own stuff, their own kitchen roll and i refill the sink to wash their RUBs. I don't go to the extreme like changing my clothes though, or seperate them so they don't share the same air( that sounds insane!) People who do handle my snakes use disinfectant before and after.

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Originally Posted by Stocksy

I didn't realise people went all out putting snakes in quarentine. Mine are basically quarentined. Lol. They are in seperate rooms, have their own stuff, their own kitchen roll and i refill the sink to wash their RUBs. I don't go to the extreme like changing my clothes though, or seperate them so they don't share the same air( that sounds insane!) People who do handle my snakes use disinfectant before and after.

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I agree, when you have two snakes it sounds crazy. When you have 10's of thousands of dollars invested in them and thousands of man hours it is not crazy any more. There are certain diseases that are not curable and very contagious. You can loose everything with one little mistake. Many of us also run totally redundant systems so that if we have an equipment failure nothing happens.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I agree, when you have two snakes it sounds crazy. When you have 10's of thousands of dollars invested in them and thousands of man hours it is not crazy any more. There are certain diseases that are not curable and very contagious. You can loose everything with one little mistake. Many of us also run totally redundant systems so that if we have an equipment failure nothing happens.

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I would love to get to that kind of level, but that would take me many, many years! I actually have 3 snakes. I also have a corn snake, but that is more for the mrs. I prefer BPs cos they just look amazing and both of mine are gorgeous!

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Originally Posted by Stocksy

I will get a pic up later.

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The tail end of my male.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d0e5429a09.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...fdead36792.jpg

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It does appear that those are "het" markers but like Eric said they are not a definite statement. The main way to find out or "prove" out the possible het pied is to breed the animal to a visual pied or another "proven het pied".They are both nice looking animals and I agree on the pastel id on the one in question.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Definitely at least a Pastel.

If he was purchased as a Normal het Pied and the "Normal" part is in question (which it is), I would be questioning the "het Pied" part as well if I were in your shoes. Just some food for thought.

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what kind of idiotic logic is that. as far as you know the person he got it from unambiguously told him it was a normal and only after the fact his cousin said it wasn't a normal. if the person was being deceitful he would have said it was a pastel het pied, seeing as there is just so much controversy regarding the morph

fallacy of composition ftw

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

It does appear that those are "het" markers but like Eric said they are not a definite statement. The main way to find out or "prove" out the possible het pied is to breed the animal to a visual pied or another "proven het pied".They are both nice looking animals and I agree on the pastel id on the one in question.

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How would that determine if Major is het or not? If i bred him to a visual pied, wouldn't their offspring be visual anyways? Thank you for complimenting my snakes. I love them! Lol. From what i have been told, is it safe to say i have a Pastel?

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Yes quarantine. They shouldn't be near each other for about three months. An oops can cost vet bills is the four digit range.

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who would take a spider or pastel to the vet and pay 4 digits when you can get a pastel or spider for $30

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Originally Posted by illaoi

what kind of idiotic logic is that. as far as you know the person he got it from unambiguously told him it was a normal and only after the fact his cousin said it wasn't a normal. if the person was being deceitful he would have said it was a pastel het pied, seeing as there is just so much controversy regarding the morph

fallacy of composition ftw

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Originally Posted by illaoi

who would take a spider or pastel to the vet and pay 4 digits when you can get a pastel or spider for $30

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This guy just wants to get kicked out of here. Please give him his wish. I can never get back the half second it took me to read his garbage.

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Originally Posted by Stocksy

How would that determine if Major is het or not? If i bred him to a visual pied, wouldn't their offspring be visual anyways? Thank you for complimenting my snakes. I love them! Lol. From what i have been told, is it safe to say i have a Pastel?

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if you bred a het recessive gene to a visual you'd get half pied babies

if you bred him to a visual and got no pied babies you can be almost certain he's not het


ex. 5 baby clutch hetXvisual the odds of getting a pied are almost 97%

6 babies 98.5%

7 babies 99.22% chance 1 will be pied if het X visual

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Originally Posted by illaoi

who would take a spider or pastel to the vet and pay 4 digits when you can get a pastel or spider for $30

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To answer your absurd question, a human.

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Originally Posted by illaoi

who would take a spider or pastel to the vet and pay 4 digits when you can get a pastel or spider for $30

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I would. I am attached to my snakes and not taking them to the vets and just buying a new one would be pure idiotic. It's like you're throwing it out and replacing it with another.

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Illaoi, who would pay 4 digits to help a common snake? I would. I have a completely normal BP as far as I know. But she is part of my family. They are living beings, not your lifeless toys. You shouldn't be allowed to own animals with that attitude. Oh, and remember that there are 6 billion normal/common type humans on this planet so why should anyone waste time or money on you?

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Originally Posted by Stocksy

I would. I am attached to my snakes and not taking them to the vets and just buying a new one would be pure idiotic. It's like you're throwing it out and replacing it with another.

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would you sell your car and house in exchange for a snake's life? would you go homeless? go without food?
your virtue has constraints like anyone else's. please don't judge.

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Originally Posted by illaoi

if you bred a het recessive gene to a visual you'd get half pied babies

if you bred him to a visual and got no pied babies you can be almost certain he's not het


ex. 5 baby clutch hetXvisual the odds of getting a pied are almost 97%

6 babies 98.5%

7 babies 99.22% chance 1 will be pied if het X visual

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I will keep that in mind for future reference. The het side if things seems a little complicated right now. Lol. Het or not, he is my gorgous boy! He's only 18 months. Or so i was told.

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Originally Posted by Zach_este93

Illaoi, who would pay 4 digits to help a common snake? I would. I have a completely normal BP as far as I know. But she is part of my family. They are living beings, not your lifeless toys. You shouldn't be allowed to own animals with that attitude. Oh, and remember that there are 6 billion normal/common type humans on this planet so why should anyone waste time or money on you?

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see my last post and take care not to fall off your horse as you do. it's a long drop.

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Originally Posted by illaoi

would you sell your car and house in exchange for a snake's life? would you go homeless? go without food?
your virtue has constraints like anyone else's. please don't judge.

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They are my pets and i wouldn't replace them if they got ill. Same as i wouldn't replace my dog or any pet i have just cos they was ill.

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Originally Posted by Stocksy

I will keep that in mind for future reference. The het side if things seems a little complicated right now. Lol. Het or not, he is my gorgous boy! He's only 18 months. Or so i was told.

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familiarize yourself with punnet squares. genetics can be very complicated, but for a simple recessive they are not.


basically the heterozygous snake will give an allele for pied or an allele for normal, because it is het (different alleles- normal and pied)

the visual will give only a pied allele because it is homozygous (the alleles are the same- both pied)

so in one baby the alleles determining pied of not will come from snake 1 (the het) and be either normal or pied and from snake 2 (visual) and be either pied or pied.

you get a pied when both alleles are pied. it is necessarily pied in the visual (because it does not offer a normal allele) so what you're left with is a normal allele and a pied allele from the other snake. 1/2. 50% chance for each baby to be pied.

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Originally Posted by illaoi

would you sell your car and house in exchange for a snake's life? would you go homeless? go without food?
your virtue has constraints like anyone else's. please don't judge.

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If you cannot afford to keep the animal you shouldn't have it. Sometimes animals have to be put down, but not using the logic you are using. Calculations like you are making are done by machines. Machines have no empathy and no soul if you believe in that sort of thing. No one needs the kind of math that you are doing. We are all aware of the calculations. It cost me less than I have paid for a snake to bring a human into this world. I can make humans for free. Does that mean the baby does not have value and I should just let it die rather than paying for a hospital visit when it gets sick?

You, whoever you are have a problem. Luckily I do not have to deal with it. I predict you will soon be gone from here.

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Originally Posted by illaoi

what kind of idiotic logic is that. as far as you know the person he got it from unambiguously told him it was a normal and only after the fact his cousin said it wasn't a normal. if the person was being deceitful he would have said it was a pastel het pied, seeing as there is just so much controversy regarding the morph

fallacy of composition ftw

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The person he bought if from told him it was a "Normal het Pied". It is obviously not a "Normal het Pied". My logic had nothing to do with the seller being deceitful at all. It had to do with them not having a clue what they were selling, as it is obviously not a normal.

When a seller doesn't know what they have when it comes to a simple single gene phenotype, such as Pastel, why should I expect them to know what they are selling when it comes to the heterozygous recessive part? Call it "fallacy of composition" if you want - I call it being informed and cautious about what you purchase and who you purchase it from.

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Originally Posted by Stocksy

How would that determine if Major is het or not? If i bred him to a visual pied, wouldn't their offspring be visual anyways? Thank you for complimenting my snakes. I love them! Lol. From what i have been told, is it safe to say i have a Pastel?

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There should be visuals produced if Major is truly "het" pied. There will also be other morphs produced that will be het pieds as well. Remember there is also the factor of his percentage of het pied that will also play into it. Also, hets don't always prove out the first time and may need to be bred several times before they do. So at the end of the day a part of the clutch should be visual pieds if Major proves out.

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

There should be visuals produced if Major is truly "het" pied. There will also be other morphs produced that will be het pieds as well. Remember there is also the factor of his percentage of het pied that will also play into it. Also, hets don't always prove out the first time and may need to be bred several times before they do. So at the end of the day a part of the clutch should be visual pieds if Major proves out.

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I have no idea about the percentage. Previous owner just told me he is a normal het pied. I'm not going to go crazy trying to work it out though. I'm sure i will find out in time once i increase my knowledge. I have been looking on Genetic Wizard ans it tells me that, if i breed Kia(Spider) and Major(Pastel), i would still produce normals. I find that rather bizarre as neither of them are normal. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Stocksy

I have no idea about the percentage. Previous owner just told me he is a normal het pied. I'm not going to go crazy trying to work it out though. I'm sure i will find out in time once i increase my knowledge.

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Since you were told he was a Normal het Pied, there are no percentage to worry about. :)

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Originally Posted by Stocksy

I have been looking on Genetic Wizard ans it tells me that, if i breed Kia(Spider) and Major(Pastel), i would still produce normals. I find that rather bizarre as neither of them are normal. Lol.

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Welcome to the land of the Odds Gods! Statistically speaking, you could breed a 10 gene animal to another 10 gene animal and still produce a normal. Oddly enough, you have the same chances in that pairing to produce the 20 gene animal as you do the 0 gene animal. Go figure, right?

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Since you were told he was a Normal het Pied, there are no percentage to worry about. :)

Welcome to the land of the Odds Gods! Statistically speaking, you could breed a 10 gene animal to another 10 gene animal and still produce a normal. Oddly enough, you have the same chances in that pairing to produce the 20 gene animal as you do the 0 gene animal. Go figure, right?

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Turned out not to be a normal at all. I might tell myself that he lied about that also. So a normal can pop out in any combination of pairings? Why does that happen?

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At it simplest you get one gene from the mom and one gene from the dad. If a snake has 2 copies of a single gene it will not produce a normal snake. This is where the hobby term super comes from. 2 copies of a single recessive gene gives you a visual recessive.

Pied is generally considered a recessive gene.

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Originally Posted by Stocksy

So a normal can pop out in any combination of pairings? Why does that happen?

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Not any combination, but most combinations, yes. Rather than write a novel here, these are some links you might find helpful to start your dive into genetics:

1. Intro to Reptile Genetics: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_intro.html
2. Simple Recessive Genetics: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/gen...recessive.html
3. Double Heterozygous Genetics: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/gen...recessive.html
4. Incomplete Dominant/Dominant Genetics: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_codom.html

Have fun!

EDIT: Also, this link from our site is a good one: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...Basic-Genetics

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Not any combination, but most combinations, yes. Rather than write a novel here, these are some links you might find helpful to start your dive into genetics:

1. Intro to Reptile Genetics: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_intro.html
2. Simple Recessive Genetics: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/gen...recessive.html
3. Double Heterozygous Genetics: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/gen...recessive.html
4. Incomplete Dominant/Dominant Genetics: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_codom.html

Have fun!

EDIT: Also, this link from our site is a good one: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...Basic-Genetics

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Thank you for those. Hopefully, they are explained in Leyman's terms, cos i need to start from the beginning. Lol.

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I would worry that whoever sold you the snake really did not know what he had, and may have swapped the real "normal het pied" with this "pastel" and you might not have the pied gene in there at all.

Good luck though, the odds gods are often kind.