What's With Keeping Snakes In Racks Small Without Hides?

Now before I get started let me just say I don't have anything against keeping snakes in racks or tubs. They can be great enclosures and they hold humidity better than the traditional tank with a mesh lid. Nor Is this intended as an attack on another forum member. I just happen to disagree with this method of keeping reptiles.

Edit picture removed: 13. Respect bandwidth, copyrights, and ownership. Do not "hot-link" images from other websites or post copyrighted material without the express, written permission of the owner.

Now, as I stated before I don't have anything against racks but keeping your reptiles seems downright cruel to me. They don't even have enough space to stretch out. Which is how I go about picking enclosures. If they eat, sleep, breed and poop I guess they're fine but that doesn't seem like any way to live. I consider the minimum a water bowl of some sort, a hide, and a enclosure large enough for the snake to fully stretch out in. As far as I'm concerned if those are met and humidity and temperatures are correct than it doesn't matter what enclosures you keep them in.

I actually brought this subject up and every one wanted to be soo against me. But like I said on my thread, surviving is NOT thriving. Thriving is absolutely not eating, breeding, and pooping. And yes, just surviving animals will breed and eat.

I myself keep my snake in a tub but he has multiple hides, plants, stuff to climb around on and can stretch out fully and still have space to spare. People who keep their snakes like that are not thinking of enrichment and the well-being of the snakes, they are thinking of what is time, effort, and cost effective for them, and that definitely doesn't excuse what they are doing.
Just because snakes are of lesser intelligence than say, a cat or a dog, does not mean they should be subjected to life in a plastic tub with substrate, a water bowl and MAYBE a single hide.

Rack housing is pretty much one large hide so no really need to add a hide if the entire enclosure is a hide ;)

If you are a breeder then racks are a must. You can't have tubs and tanks everywhere. Also, if you do have racks and you handle your snakes daily there is not harm either and that is thriving since they come out and roam the house. I don't like racks either, however to each their own and I'm not here to say it's cruel. On an average day boople is in her hide 23 hours out of that day. So honestly I don't see a difference other than I can see her in her hide 23 hours out of 24.

I always love when people (with 3 snakes first one acquired in June) disagree with or pass judgement on others that have been keeping snakes SUCCESSFULLY for years sometime, decades or more.

The bottom line there is more than one way to skin a cat, if what works for you works for you then GREAT, not sure why you feel compel to disagree or making judgement such as

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keeping your reptiles seems downright cruel to me

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but yeah like you said

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I don't have anything against keeping snakes in racks or tubs.

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:rolleyes:

It's not about being a breeder or pet owner it's about providing the proper environment for your snake, now tell me how many people using tanks or large enclosure do you see all the time on forums with the following issue.

My animal is stressed, it won't eat, it has a RI etc.

An enclosure, any enclosure whether it's a tub or a tank or a cage can be wrong if it does not meet the animal's need and vice versa.

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Originally Posted by SDA

Rack housing is pretty much one large hide so no really need to add a hide if the entire enclosure is a hide ;)

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I do disagree with that, it always can be fitted with clearer tubs. And I don't see why you would't give the snake a hide you can always make one..

Guess it all comes down to how many you have, i myself have 4 bp's atm, but plans for more. Just waiting on another rack to get here. I mean if you only have a couple of BP's then sure have them in tanks but people that have more than a couple probably dont want that many tanks(i myself dont). Tubs/racks are so much simpler, take less space and easier to clean. I can clean my 4 tubs in my small rack quicker than i could my 1 tank.

Omg deb, I love you so much!

Well if you're specifically talking ball pythons then no racks aren't even anywhere close to cruel. Thats similar to where they'd spend the vast majority of their time in the wild anyway. I do wonder though to what extent a snake would feel "enrichment" or if they benefit more from just the excersize.

Oh my God humans are nomadic long distance runners with multiple mates that roam great distances but we keep them in small cubicles, sterile apartments, and automobiles and only allow one spouse. How inhumane!

See things can be argued against any type of confinement. One could say keeping snakes period is cruel but we do and those who are responsible caregivers do so in all sorts of mediums. If you are against tubs (I am too) then don't use tubs but don't knock the people that do and keep healthy snakes.

This is an interesting discussion because my tune has definitely started to change after inquiring my 1st BP. I was told that tubs were the way to go because of how easy they were, etc, etc........BUT being the novice w/o any experience, I opted for a more visual experience (pvc enclosure). There's no way I wanted to spend all this $$ on a beautiful creature and not be able to view him his enclosure. Boy was I wrong...very rarely do I ever see him outside of his hide. So just maybe, If I ever get another, I'll go the tub / rack route.

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Originally Posted by MD_Pythons

And I don't see why you would't give the snake a hide you can always make one..

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Because most when provided with proper secure environment like in a tub will absolutely not use it.

There is a lot of things you can learn with experience and reading your animals and learning from them, and there are a lot of thing you can try to see what work best for you and your animals, but after 4 months you do not know it all, even I don't and the key to successful ownership is to be open.

Every one is entitled to opinion. I keep mine in a tub. She thrives in it. Now I also see her hanging at the top and seems to enjoy coming out.

Keeping in a big tank is fine as long as you keep your temps on check. and provide ample hide.

I also notice most of the snakes on here that are stressed and not eating, is not due to the fact they're in tanks or tubs. Most of these problems from what I have read on here are from people not properly researching before buying a snake. Having no thermostat or temp gauges, not keeping room at proper temp etc...I have no idea about rack systems and don't plan on ever having more than 1 or 2 snakes. I will graduate to PVC when the time comes. I'm sure if you have tons of snakes it makes a lot of sense to have a rack system. :)

I won't say that tubs are cruel at all.

SDA, you say you are against tubs but would never bash people who keep their snakes in them. I agree with that except people who keep their snakes in tubs regularly bash and make people feel bad for keeping their snakes in tanks. Like Deborah said, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I've even seen people who have on point husbandry with tanks be talked down on.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I always love when people (with 3 snakes first one acquired in June) disagree with others that have been keeping snakes SUCCESSFULLY for a decade or more.

Bottom line there is more than one way to skin a cat, if what works for you works for you then GREAT, not sure why you feel compel to disagree or making such judgement as but yeah like you said :rolleyes:

It's not about being a breeder or pet owner it's about providing the proper environment for your snake, now tell me how many people using tanks or large enclosure do you see all the time on forums with the following issue.

My animal is stressed, it won't eat, it has a RI etc

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Yes at the end of the day this is pretty much a matter of opinion, like I said earlier proper temperatures and humidity are more important. And a lot of the people with those issues are new to keeping snakes in general.

I keep my BPs (and some other small species) in racks, but they all have tubs large enough for 2 or 1 hide, water bowl, and movement space. In some cases, I've opted to remove the hide to allow for more moving room for some of my adult BPs who don't seem to use a hide much. Other, shyer, animals are given hides because they will go off food without them.

IMO, you generally want the footprint (length +width) of the enclosure (tub, tank, pvc, whatever) to be equal to or greater than the length of the snake. This allows plenty of stretching room, etc.

Some of my other snakes (non-BPs) have pvc cages with the guideline above, but also a shelf to climb on to if they want to.

I think you just have to make adjustments for each species and individual you keep... Some people may have a BP that refuses to eat in a larger tub, some have an animal that needs more room.

IMO there is no wrong way to house your animal, given that you meet their needs for temps, humidity, cleanliness, etc. It is best if we all remain open to other methods because we may one day have to change our own methods up if your circumstances change.

OP might want to do some basic research.

I'm sorry for making an idiot of myself, I thought I'd just share my opinion and I didn't mean to rustle any feathers or anything, I'll just go for a while. Peace out

Hi,

Over the years I have tried both, and various substrates in them.

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Originally Posted by MD_Pythons

Now before I get started let me just say I don't have anything against keeping snakes in racks or tubs. They can be great enclosures and they hold humidity better than the traditional tank with a mesh lid. Nor Is this intended as an attack on another forum member. I just happen to disagree with this method of keeping reptiles.

Edit picture removed: 13. Respect bandwidth, copyrights, and ownership. Do not "hot-link" images from other websites or post copyrighted material without the express, written permission of the owner.

Now, as I stated before I don't have anything against racks but keeping your reptiles seems downright cruel to me. They don't even have enough space to stretch out. Which is how I go about picking enclosures. If they eat, sleep, breed and poop I guess they're fine but that doesn't seem like any way to live. I consider the minimum a water bowl of some sort, a hide, and a enclosure large enough for the snake to fully stretch out in. As far as I'm concerned if those are met and humidity and temperatures are correct than it doesn't matter what enclosures you keep them in.

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Disagreeing is allowed so no need to leave for a while. :)

All I can say is my snakes do better in a tub than they ever did in a large vivarium **shrug** I use newspaper substrate which they can get under if they feel exposed so, essentially, the entire tub is a hide that touches them on all sides even if they move from one end to the other. The only bit they cannot get under is where the heavy ceramic water bowls are.

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Originally Posted by PythonBabes

I actually brought this subject up and every one wanted to be soo against me. But like I said on my thread, surviving is NOT thriving. Thriving is absolutely not eating, breeding, and pooping. And yes, just surviving animals will breed and eat.

I myself keep my snake in a tub but he has multiple hides, plants, stuff to climb around on and can stretch out fully and still have space to spare. People who keep their snakes like that are not thinking of enrichment and the well-being of the snakes, they are thinking of what is time, effort, and cost effective for them, and that definitely doesn't excuse what they are doing.
Just because snakes are of lesser intelligence than say, a cat or a dog, does not mean they should be subjected to life in a plastic tub with substrate, a water bowl and MAYBE a single hide.

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I mainly find the most common thing they do with climbing structures once they get older is fall off them and look affronted at you. Males seem better at not doing so but I always worried they would fall on the rim of the waterbowl and hurt themselves. :oops:

My tubs are wardrobe drawers approx 3 foot by 2 so they can stretch ok from what I have seen - and they consistently eat better than they did in vivs ( my snakes only given as the example as I am familiar with them in both ) And I think you underestimate just how stubborn bp's can be if they do not like their environment. For decades everyone swore they were dodgy eaters in captivity - there is a reason we have as many keepers as we do posting their snakes eat ok. The snakes didn't change, the husbandry did.

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Originally Posted by PythonBabes

I won't say that tubs are cruel at all.

SDA, you say you are against tubs but would never bash people who keep their snakes in them. I agree with that except people who keep their snakes in tubs regularly bash and make people feel bad for keeping their snakes in tanks. Like Deborah said, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I've even seen people who have on point husbandry with tanks be talked down on.

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This is sadly true - many ways work for all the various snakes out there. We have a narrower focus on what we recommend precisely because it will give fussy snakes the best chances of a good start and the more robust ones won't care and eat anyway. ;) Once you can read your animals well enough there is little problem with mixing things up as long as you are prepared to deal with any problems that pop up.

Tolerance wouldn't hurt the community in this regard but, since we normally get people joining because they have a problem, we do over emphasise the basic model as we do not yet know the users capabilities. We'll work on it. :cool:


del

I don't like glass tanks AT ALL. Tubs make it 1000x easier and are more beneficial to the snake.

I don't think OP is vouching for glass tanks or vivariums like what's typically posted of these topics, but just for larger tubs and thus larger racks that fit larger tubs. Which I think is what they meant by "not against racks or tubs".

I don't know what image was originally posted, but I've seen how some people keep 1500g ball pythons in 15 qt tubs and I honestly don't agree with that either. They should have enough room to stretch out the majority of their length in one direction, at the very least... in my opinion.

I keep my adults around 1000g in 41qt sterilites myself.

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

I don't think OP is vouching for glass tanks or vivariums like what's typically posted of these topics, but just for larger tubs and thus larger racks that fit larger tubs. Which I think is what they meant by "not against racks or tubs".

I don't know what image was originally posted, but I've seen how some people keep 1500g ball pythons in 15 qt tubs and I honestly don't agree with that either. They should have enough room to stretch out the majority of their length in one direction, at the very least... in my opinion.

I keep my adults around 1000g in 41qt sterilites myself.

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Thank you for taking time to read what I posted, I never meant to say tubs and racks were cruel or anything I was trying to advocate for bigger ones. I am well aware that tubs and racks are more space efficient and keep heat easier and the like. The picture was a breeding pair of bps in a little tub that they barely fit in, I can send it to you if you want. This whole thread turned into a mess that I wasn't prepared for

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Originally Posted by MD_Pythons

Thank you for taking time to read what I posted, I never meant to say tubs and racks were cruel or anything I was trying to advocate for bigger ones. I am well aware that tubs and racks are more space efficient and keep heat easier and the like. The picture was a breeding pair of bps in a little tub that they barely fit in, I can send it to you if you want. This whole thread turned into a mess that I wasn't prepared for

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It's alright, it is a touchy subject, and there's honestly random newbies every couple months who come online telling everyone to put their ball pythons in tanks/give them more room in tanks. So I think it's easy to jump straight to that response, because that is pretty annoying. Dr del also makes a good point... a surprising amount of newbies don't do "large setups" correctly, and encounter problems. So it's always better to push newbies to start out safe before venturing, unless you are smart.

And I see, it is a bit different for breeding purposes actually, because you want the snakes to interact and thus some breeders intentionally do smaller tubs, sterile, with nothing else. If you put too many hides and stuff, it actually lowers their chances of breeding since they can hide away from each other. :D they don't live like together like that permanently, only a couple days at a time.

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Originally Posted by MD_Pythons

I'm sorry for making an idiot of myself, I thought I'd just share my opinion and I didn't mean to rustle any feathers or anything, I'll just go for a while. Peace out

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Don't feel bad this community well some of it say that it's o.k to have an opinion then want to throw how long and how many snakes you have owned in your face when they disagree. It's very funny actually, it's your opinion so why does it matter if your a novice. I hate racks maybe because I can't see my expensive snake I bought so I opted for an apt8 but that's my right, does not mean I can't have an opinion on racks. But I guess when you have done this for 30 plus years you know it all and that's all that matters[emoji12]

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

It's alright, it is a touchy subject, and there's honestly random newbies every couple months who come online telling everyone to put their ball pythons in tanks/give them more room in tanks. So I think it's easy to jump straight to that response, because that is pretty annoying. Dr del also makes a good point... a surprising amount of newbies don't do "large setups" correctly, and encounter problems. So it's always better to push newbies to start out safe before venturing, unless you are smart.

And I see, it is a bit different for breeding purposes actually, because you want the snakes to interact and thus some breeders intentionally do smaller tubs, sterile, with nothing else. If you put too many hides and stuff, it actually lowers their chances of breeding since they can hide away from each other. :D they don't live like together like that permanently, only a couple days at a time.

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As much as I like going on about my enclosure for Maze, I wouldn't recommend it to someone who isn't willing to put in the time, effort, and money to get the husbandry how it should be. Smaller tubs are easier to maintain, and the height on taller tubs and glass enclosures can make it harder to maintain consistent temps. Again, you gotta want to get it right.

And they are a bit more maintenance. On cleaning day, I spend about twos hours (I don't keep track, I just focus on getting it done honestly) on cleaning the tub, all of the decor and enrichment items, and setting it back up again before I even plug the CHE back in. And it takes a lot longer than the sterile tubs to find messes. I have to lift up the lid (heavy, CHE +light fixture on top lol), then a fake plant, then the hides if I want to spot clean thoroughly. I just added water to the substrate on the hot side to get the humidity back up today, too. Admittedly it's been about a week and a half since cleaning day, so to be expected, but it brought the humidity to 75% from the 47% it was before. I'm not trying to complain, just pointing out the differences in time I spend verses how much easier it would be in a smaller tub.

Not discouraging large enclosures, but yeah, they're a lot more work to maintain, and that's probably why folks direct newbies to easier enclosures that are easier to get husbandry right before they start experimenting. As a newbie myself, would I do Maze's enclosure this way again? Abso-fricken-lutely! lmao. She's all over the dang thing at night, so the more space the better for her :P.

My setup includes a glass tank, and a rack with tubs.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...w/IMG_0806.jpg
Here is my large male adult, roaming his tank (below)
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...b/IMG_0858.jpg

Here is a juvenile female in her medium tub (33 quart I think? below)
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...IMG_0879_2.jpg

Here is my huge female adult Godzilla, she prefers the privacy of a tub (55 QUART tub!) in the rack over a big tank. (below)
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...IMG_0877_2.jpg
Here she is deep in BLUE (about to shed) hence her gray-blue covered eyes and very hazy colored scales. (below)
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...IMG_0878_2.jpg

Or could it be both tubs and tanks are giving our snakes a much better living environment than inside the confines of a termite mound with exposure to termites and parasites. Even though our pets can't show it or say it, my guess is they prefer option A or B way above option C.

I still think it's funny how the topic somehow reverted to tanks vs tubs, when the OP didn't even mention tanks LOL. It's like an automatic response at this point.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I always love when people (with 3 snakes first one acquired in June) disagree with or pass judgement on others that have been keeping snakes SUCCESSFULLY for years sometime, decades or more.

The bottom line there is more than one way to skin a cat, if what works for you works for you then GREAT, not sure why you feel compel to disagree or making judgement such as but yeah like you said :rolleyes:

It's not about being a breeder or pet owner it's about providing the proper environment for your snake, now tell me how many people using tanks or large enclosure do you see all the time on forums with the following issue.

My animal is stressed, it won't eat, it has a RI etc.

An enclosure, any enclosure whether it's a tub or a tank or a cage can be wrong if it does not meet the animal's need and vice versa.

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Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I had a loooong (and hard) day and you saved me writing this out. A lot more can be said, but this is it, in a nutshell ;)

I have both cages and racks of different sizes. I have 11 species of snakes...climbers, burrowers, hiders and hang-outers. Different ones have different types of hides, branches, vines, jungle gyms, small water bowls, big dish pans, different substrates. I believe that snakes appreciate both security and enrichment, but that there's no one-size-fits-all; these are all defined differently by species, and tweaked by an individual's personalitiy.

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Originally Posted by dr del ❤️

Hi,

Over the years I have tried both, and various substrates in them.



Disagreeing is allowed so no need to leave for a while. :)

All I can say is my snakes do better in a tub than they ever did in a large vivarium **shrug** I use newspaper substrate which they can get under if they feel exposed so, essentially, the entire tub is a hide that touches them on all sides even if they move from one end to the other. The only bit they cannot get under is where the heavy ceramic water bowls are.



I mainly find the most common thing they do with climbing structures once they get older is fall off them and look affronted at you. Males seem better at not doing so but I always worried they would fall on the rim of the waterbowl and hurt themselves. :oops:

My tubs are wardrobe drawers approx 3 foot by 2 so they can stretch ok from what I have seen - and they consistently eat better than they did in vivs ( my snakes only given as the example as I am familiar with them in both ) And I think you underestimate just how stubborn bp's can be if they do not like their environment. For decades everyone swore they were dodgy eaters in captivity - there is a reason we have as many keepers as we do posting their snakes eat ok. The snakes didn't change, the husbandry did.



This is sadly true - many ways work for all the various snakes out there. We have a narrower focus on what we recommend precisely because it will give fussy snakes the best chances of a good start and the more robust ones won't care and eat anyway. ;) Once you can read your animals well enough there is little problem with mixing things up as long as you are prepared to deal with any problems that pop up.

Tolerance wouldn't hurt the community in this regard but, since we normally get people joining because they have a problem, we do over emphasise the basic model as we do not yet know the users capabilities. We'll work on it. :cool:


del

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And yes, I will quote this post too, because another EXCELLENT one, that bears repeating !!!

That said, I keep most of my snakes in racks, but used to keep them all in tanks (first) and wonderful cages (later on).

Nowadays I only have ONE great display cage. I do enjoy it, and husbandry is SPOT ON, but I don't doubt for one second that the snake would actually prefer the rack. But that's just based on my experience and knowing my animals after many years of keeping them.

Racks can work great, cages can work great, tanks can be made to work, but they aren't ideal.

All across the board, the husbandry has to be RIGHT.

And if done right, yes, there are different ways to go about it. It only becomes a problem when one or the other is put down, when people say the animal "suffers" just because of what enclosure one has. There is a lot more to keeping them successfully, then just the enclosure..

Btw. It also makes a difference which species of snake one is talking about. I wouldn't keep Carpet Pythons, Russian Ratsnakes or any other species that enjoys more space and climbing in a rack. But I find Ball Pythons do EXCEPTIONALLY well in them.

Interesting thread... I started out keeping my ball pythons in glass tanks with hides. They hid all day long, it was like keeping a bunch of empty tanks around. And they didn't eat much at all. When I first put them in the rack system their appetite was incredible, they all would eat anything, probably would have eaten my shoe if I threw it in there!

A lot of people on this site complain about snake problems and most of those same people keep them in glass aquariums, I think just the opposite, it's cruel to keep them in glass tanks. It's like digging up an earthworm and putting it in an empty glass tank for everyone to see thinking it's going to thrive. Ball pythons live in the dark under termite mounds, not in glass tanks on your kitchen table LOL. A grey tub in a rack is about as close to their natural environment as you can get. If you are keeping ball pythons please ditch the glass aquariums! And remember, it's a snake not a fish!

I keep my little ones in glass tanks currently, yes they do fine. Neither have ever missed a meal, their sheds are full, poop and pee like normal, ect. ect. BUT it took a lot to get everything just right and still more daily to keep it that way! I've become a broken record on here lately on how to keep up humidity in a tank and crazy how much you have to do and all these contrived tricks just to get things adequate and that's not even going on to temps or cleaning lol. And they don't even use the space, and even seems uncomfortable in it.

Now I happily do it all but you can bet before I get my next BP I'll be getting myself a rack system and use the tanks for a species that would appreciate and actually want the space. Now I will be getting larger tubs for the racks but I have the ability to do that sense I don't have as many animals and have that luxury but I would never knock a breeder or someone with lots of animals for having smaller, they simply don't use or need it.

Also, nobody is knocking you or trying to prove you wrong or make you look dumb. You shared your opinion as you have a right to on a public forum and asked what everyone else thought and people responded with they thought, just because it differs from yours doesn't mean they were saying it to be rude. You haven't made a fool of yourself, just made an interesting topic for people to discuss. And while the OP never said anything about tanks it's easy to see why others assumed that. The post was pretty brief, started off talking about tanks and saying they were cruel. We know know they meant the racks in the picture not all in general but the picture was taken down so people made assumptions. That's just how it goes.



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The tubs I keep my snakes in are set up like a tank enclosure. They have substrate, natural hides, water, and plant clutter. Just because it's a tub doesn't mean it has to be newspaper and no hides, which is the impression I get from most people who are against them. I believe rack systems are the best way to house ball pythons, not due to time and space (although those are nice bonuses), but because I've seen the difference of a snake in a tank vs tub, and 90% of the time they seem healthier and less stressed when they're in the tub.

When I first stared this hobby 10 years ago, I acquired 4 snakes within a year and a half, and at that time I had 2 years experience working at a facility that had large boas and pythons. They were all in tanks at the beginning, but I switched when I picked up my fourth snake. My snakes were already healthy and I took good care of them, I'd never had issues with RI's or food refusal, but I could still see a difference. Sheds were consistently much better, temps and humidity were WAY more consistent (I barely ever have to spray), they were less inclined to hiss or stress when I handled them, and the list goes on. When I saw the difference with the snakes I owned, I convinced the place I worked at to keep their snakes in a rack system when they weren't on display. In the long run the investment of a rack system saved them money, too.

Also, glass tanks are just a hassle regardless (in my opinion and my experience). If you want to keep a bp as a display animal and not struggle with humidity, temps and whatever else, there are cages - like the ones from AP - that function and look so much better than a tank ever could.

:2cent:

I was never trying to say racks were cruel I was just trying to advocate for bigger ones, the picture helps with that. I don't have an issue with racks.

Keeping a snake in any type of enclosure that is too small is detrimental.

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Originally Posted by MD_Pythons

I was never trying to say racks were cruel I was just trying to advocate for bigger ones, the picture helps with that. I don't have an issue with racks.

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Some of us know what you meant. Don't worry about it. If people can't have an open discussion or debate on something that's their problem to deal with.

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Originally Posted by MD_Pythons

the picture helps with that.

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The picture was a close up of two animals breeding in a tub but it was impossible to see how large the tub was.
I'm glad you clarified it was the SIZE of the tub you were talking about because reading your first post, I took it as you were against tubs in general which seems to be why the thread turned out the way it did.

I don't think you'll find anyone arguing that snakes SHOULD be kept in tubs that are too small.
:)

Thigmotropic refers to the preference some species of snakes have to being in a space where they press their bodies up against a solid surface. (p. 129, The complete Suboc, Rhoades. Took a while to find that term in the book. For all you young budding herpetologists who will be scientifically oriented books - include a damn index!)

I can only speak for my snakes (all North American species), but they use their hides much of the time, and prefer them on the small side. The Sonoran gopher jams herself into a tupperware that would seem entirely too small, but that one is always her first choice.

I would add hides even in a rack system. YMMV.

At the moment I only have one beep, so a tank filled with decor and clutter and hides makes sense. If I had an abundance of these guys, which one day I plan to have, I would have no problem switching to a rack. Many people have had success with it! And my bp is hiding all day in the very dark, very mushed in back of his hide. He isn't really 'using' most of his tank for the majority of the day anyway.

However, I do agree that a hide even in a rack system along with some plant clutter can only be beneficial. Replicating their natural environment as much as possible is always a good thing with exotic pets IMO, and with stuff like dollar store foliage and reptile basics hides etc, it really only costs as much as you want it to. You can go all out and spend 100 bucks on reptile specific hides, or be cost effective and spend 20-30 bucks, maybe even less, on the stuff I mentioned above. If you can do it, why not?

That said, no cheap shots on people who provide minimal racks (ex. no hides, just a water dish, heating, and paper towel). I agree surviving and thriving are two different states, and I do personally believe enrichment like hides and clutter is, well, enriching - but these guys seem to do just fine in minimal rack systems.

And it's a lot easier said than done, my prices are just estimates. If you have a lot of snakes, providing hides and clutter, even dollar store stuff, adds up financially. I don't think reptile breeding should ever be a business first and foremost, but rather a passionate hobby that you make money from :P However, I understand a lot of people literally require a profit from selling their babies to keep their hobby going. IMO, as long as you can do that and keep your snakes happy and healthy, I don't see any issues with hideless/decorless racks.

Keeping any animal in "to small of a space for its needs" is cruel.

Now...there ARE animals where the opposite is true. Keeping them in TO LARGE of a space for their needs is cruel.

We always have to remember NOT to project our own needs and necessities onto other species.

And about this whole "enrichment" thing.

What does "enrichment" mean ? Something that enriches my life. Things that make me happy enrich my life. Feeling safe enriches my life. Long hikes through nature enriches my life. The sky, sun, beautiful weather. Fun things to do, travel. Friends, family, kids, spouse.

Most humans need some of those and other things to have enrichment in their lives.

When it comes to animals, "enrichment" is the new "in vogue" thing. It is usually used in context with making the space they live in more "interesting", not so boring and blah.

But what about species that care nothing for a jungle gym? Does it "enrich" their lives ? What about a species that prefers small and dark places, does it enrich their lives to offer large spaces full of "stuff" to do ?

And then..if that animal is "all over that stuff" does it mean it needs that stuff? Wants that stuff? How do we know it isn't simply going around all that in its search for food ? Or stressed over it?

Going back to Ball Pythons, we know in the wild they spend a LARGE amount of time in tight, dark spaces. They even oftentimes just "lie in wait" for food to walk by. Once they have to poop or pee, they are forced to find another "small, dark space" because the smell would give them away, and no food would just "walk by".
They also travel when they are looking to breed. Some may seek out food, for sure, or travel short distances for other reasons like to find water. But by far and large, they spend their time "hiding".

We often say...as long as we clutter it up well enough, a LARGE enclosure is just fine. But is it ? Usually we have a warm and and a cool end. In order to find the exact temperature they want (or need) they are forced to choose. They are forced to travel just for thermo regulation. In the wild THEY will pick their spot. It isn't chosen for them based on which side of their habitat is cooler or warmer. They don't have to venture out and travel over all kinds of "enrichment" (exposing themselves to danger and being eaten) just to find a cooler or warmer spot. Simply moving deeper or lower within their hiding spot usually gives them the gradient they need.

Therefor, "enrichment" can be many things. And it can be vastly DIFFERENT things for different species. What one species needs and craves , another might get stressed by.

However, we cannot "ask" our snakes what they prefer. We can watch their body language and what "they do". But how does one know the snake "cruises" back and forth because it loves the jungle gym and fun, or because it is stressed and unhappy ? Does the snake try to stretch to the edge of the tank because 1. It wants to hang out with the owner and have some fun 2. Its stressed and wants to find a safer place to live 3. The husbandry is incorrect and the snake tries to find better. Well, humans have their way to interpret things they way they would like them to be, so how is one to know?

When it comes to snakes, esp. Ball Pythons, we know they stress easy. We sort of know what stresses them. We know a stressed snake will not eat, breed and usually doesn't do well. They may survive, if not exactly thrive. It may be despite its circumstances. Not because of them.

We all know that even within a snake species, there are individuals. Some stress easier, others do not. Some are painfully shy, some aggressive, some seem calm and curious. So unless one has a great number of them, and has them for a long time, its hard to see the big picture on what seems to work best, across the board.

Just like with everything else, with time and exposure comes experience.

I was once a beginner, and even I thought that in some instances I had the better idea then some more experienced keepers. After all, experience isn't everything ? Little did I know, it may not be everything, but it is A LOT.

I was DEAD SET against racks and tubs. Spoke out against them. Like with so many things, one has to actually experience different situations, before having an informed opinion about them.

Many Ball Pythons do exceptionally well in rack set ups. They eat more readily, breed more readily, thrive. That in itself is a clue. You can accomplish all that in cages as well. But IMHO, and with Ball Pythons in particular, there really is a TO BIG. And the enrichment they need lies within the correct husbandry, and tight dark places.

I have a Display cage with a big Ball Python. Husbandry is spot on. It works. But "imho" the rack would work the same if not better, for this particular snake.

So ...Tub or cage, there is such a thing as to small, but there certainly is such a thing as to big.

my (very long) 2 cents..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zina10

Keeping any animal in "to small of a space for its needs" is cruel.

Now...there ARE animals where the opposite is true. Keeping them in TO LARGE of a space for their needs is cruel.

We always have to remember NOT to project our own needs and necessities onto other species.

And about this whole "enrichment" thing.

What does "enrichment" mean ? Something that enriches my life. Things that make me happy enrich my life. Feeling safe enriches my life. Long hikes through nature enriches my life. The sky, sun, beautiful weather. Fun things to do, travel. Friends, family, kids, spouse.

Most humans need some of those and other things to have enrichment in their lives.

When it comes to animals, "enrichment" is the new "in vogue" thing. It is usually used in context with making the space they live in more "interesting", not so boring and blah.

But what about species that care nothing for a jungle gym? Does it "enrich" their lives ? What about a species that prefers small and dark places, does it enrich their lives to offer large spaces full of "stuff" to do ?

And then..if that animal is "all over that stuff" does it mean it needs that stuff? Wants that stuff? How do we know it isn't simply going around all that in its search for food ? Or stressed over it?

Going back to Ball Pythons, we know in the wild they spend a LARGE amount of time in tight, dark spaces. They even oftentimes just "lie in wait" for food to walk by. Once they have to poop or pee, they are forced to find another "small, dark space" because the smell would give them away, and no food would just "walk by".
They also travel when they are looking to breed. Some may seek out food, for sure, or travel short distances for other reasons like to find water. But by far and large, they spend their time "hiding".

We often say...as long as we clutter it up well enough, a LARGE enclosure is just fine. But is it ? Usually we have a warm and and a cool end. In order to find the exact temperature they want (or need) they are forced to choose. They are forced to travel just for thermo regulation. In the wild THEY will pick their spot. It isn't chosen for them based on which side of their habitat is cooler or warmer. They don't have to venture out and travel over all kinds of "enrichment" (exposing themselves to danger and being eaten) just to find a cooler or warmer spot. Simply moving deeper or lower within their hiding spot usually gives them the gradient they need.

Therefor, "enrichment" can be many things. And it can be vastly DIFFERENT things for different species. What one species needs and craves , another might get stressed by.

However, we cannot "ask" our snakes what they prefer. We can watch their body language and what "they do". But how does one know the snake "cruises" back and forth because it loves the jungle gym and fun, or because it is stressed and unhappy ? Does the snake try to stretch to the edge of the tank because 1. It wants to hang out with the owner and have some fun 2. Its stressed and wants to find a safer place to live 3. The husbandry is incorrect and the snake tries to find better. Well, humans have their way to interpret things they way they would like them to be, so how is one to know?

When it comes to snakes, esp. Ball Pythons, we know they stress easy. We sort of know what stresses them. We know a stressed snake will not eat, breed and usually doesn't do well. They may survive, if not exactly thrive. It may be despite its circumstances. Not because of them.

We all know that even within a snake species, there are individuals. Some stress easier, others do not. Some are painfully shy, some aggressive, some seem calm and curious. So unless one has a great number of them, and has them for a long time, its hard to see the big picture on what seems to work best, across the board.

Just like with everything else, with time and exposure comes experience.

I was once a beginner, and even I thought that in some instances I had the better idea then some more experienced keepers. After all, experience isn't everything ? Little did I know, it may not be everything, but it is A LOT.

I was DEAD SET against racks and tubs. Spoke out against them. Like with so many things, one has to actually experience different situations, before having an informed opinion about them.

Many Ball Pythons do exceptionally well in rack set ups. They eat more readily, breed more readily, thrive. That in itself is a clue. You can accomplish all that in cages as well. But IMHO, and with Ball Pythons in particular, there really is a TO BIG. And the enrichment they need lies within the correct husbandry, and tight dark places.

I have a Display cage with a big Ball Python. Husbandry is spot on. It works. But "imho" the rack would work the same if not better, for this particular snake.

So ...Tub or cage, there is such a thing as to small, but there certainly is such a thing as to big.

my (very long) 2 cents..

---

Always so well spoken zina!!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zina10

Keeping any animal in "to small of a space for its needs" is cruel.

Now...there ARE animals where the opposite is true. Keeping them in TO LARGE of a space for their needs is cruel.

We always have to remember NOT to project our own needs and necessities onto other species.

And about this whole "enrichment" thing.

What does "enrichment" mean ? Something that enriches my life. Things that make me happy enrich my life. Feeling safe enriches my life. Long hikes through nature enriches my life. The sky, sun, beautiful weather. Fun things to do, travel. Friends, family, kids, spouse.

Most humans need some of those and other things to have enrichment in their lives.

When it comes to animals, "enrichment" is the new "in vogue" thing. It is usually used in context with making the space they live in more "interesting", not so boring and blah.

But what about species that care nothing for a jungle gym? Does it "enrich" their lives ? What about a species that prefers small and dark places, does it enrich their lives to offer large spaces full of "stuff" to do ?

And then..if that animal is "all over that stuff" does it mean it needs that stuff? Wants that stuff? How do we know it isn't simply going around all that in its search for food ? Or stressed over it?

Going back to Ball Pythons, we know in the wild they spend a LARGE amount of time in tight, dark spaces. They even oftentimes just "lie in wait" for food to walk by. Once they have to poop or pee, they are forced to find another "small, dark space" because the smell would give them away, and no food would just "walk by".
They also travel when they are looking to breed. Some may seek out food, for sure, or travel short distances for other reasons like to find water. But by far and large, they spend their time "hiding".

We often say...as long as we clutter it up well enough, a LARGE enclosure is just fine. But is it ? Usually we have a warm and and a cool end. In order to find the exact temperature they want (or need) they are forced to choose. They are forced to travel just for thermo regulation. In the wild THEY will pick their spot. It isn't chosen for them based on which side of their habitat is cooler or warmer. They don't have to venture out and travel over all kinds of "enrichment" (exposing themselves to danger and being eaten) just to find a cooler or warmer spot. Simply moving deeper or lower within their hiding spot usually gives them the gradient they need.

Therefor, "enrichment" can be many things. And it can be vastly DIFFERENT things for different species. What one species needs and craves , another might get stressed by.

However, we cannot "ask" our snakes what they prefer. We can watch their body language and what "they do". But how does one know the snake "cruises" back and forth because it loves the jungle gym and fun, or because it is stressed and unhappy ? Does the snake try to stretch to the edge of the tank because 1. It wants to hang out with the owner and have some fun 2. Its stressed and wants to find a safer place to live 3. The husbandry is incorrect and the snake tries to find better. Well, humans have their way to interpret things they way they would like them to be, so how is one to know?

When it comes to snakes, esp. Ball Pythons, we know they stress easy. We sort of know what stresses them. We know a stressed snake will not eat, breed and usually doesn't do well. They may survive, if not exactly thrive. It may be despite its circumstances. Not because of them.

We all know that even within a snake species, there are individuals. Some stress easier, others do not. Some are painfully shy, some aggressive, some seem calm and curious. So unless one has a great number of them, and has them for a long time, its hard to see the big picture on what seems to work best, across the board.

Just like with everything else, with time and exposure comes experience.

I was once a beginner, and even I thought that in some instances I had the better idea then some more experienced keepers. After all, experience isn't everything ? Little did I know, it may not be everything, but it is A LOT.

I was DEAD SET against racks and tubs. Spoke out against them. Like with so many things, one has to actually experience different situations, before having an informed opinion about them.

Many Ball Pythons do exceptionally well in rack set ups. They eat more readily, breed more readily, thrive. That in itself is a clue. You can accomplish all that in cages as well. But IMHO, and with Ball Pythons in particular, there really is a TO BIG. And the enrichment they need lies within the correct husbandry, and tight dark places.

I have a Display cage with a big Ball Python. Husbandry is spot on. It works. But "imho" the rack would work the same if not better, for this particular snake.

So ...Tub or cage, there is such a thing as to small, but there certainly is such a thing as to big.

my (very long) 2 cents..

---

Thank you very much for this great comment.
I've followed this thread since it was posted but I didn't intend to voice my opinion on this topic because I do see both pros and cons (but I am by no means an experienced owner; I have had mine for just about 4 months). But I think that you brought up some very great points. By the way I've actually seen my ball python (at night) just hanging out in his hide waiting for food. On other days he likes to climb (especially when the hide, that he was in, is dirty).
In my country rack systems are sort of forbidden and are considered animal cruelty (but I only know of one case that actually went to court). There was actually a breeder couple that was sued because of the rack systems they used for their ball pythons. He and his wife claimed that they have bred ball python for over 20 years and have kept them in rack systems for over 17 years. They said they have bred better and have eaten better since they've lived in rack systems.
The court then ordered a few veterinaries to take a look at the rack system. This is a translated quote from the head of the department for consumer protection and animal health. He was asked to sum up the result from the veterinaries research:

"In the veterinaries' opinion keeping ball pythons in rack systems for their whole life is against (our laws of) animal protection. For the snake living in a rack system for it's whole life means being kept in a tub without being able to move and to behave according to it's instincts. Behaviours like hunting, movement or searching for a partner are impossible."

The court asked the couple to dissolve their collection but the couple ended up moving to the Netherlands because rack systems are not against the law in the Netherlands.
I believe that are certainly cases in which rack systems are way too small and/or not taken care of properly. But in a terrarium the ball python can't go hunting or search for a partner as well.
In the end I always wonder who to trust more. A person who has kept the snakes for over 20 years and has a lot of practical experience or the veterinaries who have studied these animals for over 20 years as well but only have the knowledge of these animals from their research about their natural ways and their health. There might be some truth to both? I don't know because I have neither the experience nor that kind of detailed knowledge but I am eager to learn more about it.
I prefer a terrarium for my python because my little ball python does better in the terrarium than in the rack system I used for his quarantine (but I don't know if I might have done a mistake when I had him in the quarantine box). Anyway, thank your for the great comment on that topic. I feel like I've learned a bit more about the pros. In the end it only matters which one of these is better for the animal.

Enrichment is perhaps more for the keeper than the snake.

I added a back wall of foam faux rock ledges in the Trans-pecos tank. I also have a peculiar knotted and gnarled old stump in there. I like the way the display looks, and it's interesting to watch him slither around, but I have to pick him up, and place him on the top ledge for that. Otherwise, he stays on the ground.

He is my most beautiful animal, and also moves with the most hypnotic grace, but this tall narrow tank may not be suited to him.

Zina's post (#41) is amazing. :love: Are you single Zina?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Godzilla78

Zina's post (#41) is amazing. :love: Are you single Zina?

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:dance: her post are always on point lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by distaff

Enrichment is perhaps more for the keeper than the snake.

I added a back wall of foam faux rock ledges in the Trans-pecos tank. I also have a peculiar knotted and gnarled old stump in there. I like the way the display looks, and it's interesting to watch him slither around, but I have to pick him up, and place him on the top ledge for that. Otherwise, he stays on the ground.

He is my most beautiful animal, and also moves with the most hypnotic grace, but this tall narrow tank may not be suited to him.

---

How far off the back of the terrarium do the ledges extend? I made one for my baird's rat snake and it extends about 8-10 inches out at one point and about 4-5 at another and she's on it all the time.

I wish I could see the picture so I knew what you were talking about specifically but going off the other replies I'm gonna say I have a decent grasp of what's happening.

Here's the deal, ridiculously small tubs for anything but neonate snakes should be frowned upon for obvious reasons. I saw someone reference keeping an adult snake in 15qt tubs. That's around 13x8x5 inches, if someone claims to have been doing it for years then what they've been doing is abusing animals for years. Sorry, I can't even fit my foot in that cage and if someone is keeping their's in that size of a tub they don't need to be telling anyone how to take care of their snakes because they aren't doing a good job I don't think anyone here would argue against that and I know a lot of tub keepers on this forum.

Finally onto the debate any conversation like this devolves into:

Now are tubs themselves bad? No, in my opinion they aren't. And I keep my snakes in large naturalistic terrariums.

I've seen some pretty tremendous ball python setups in tanks or plastic terrariums, it honestly makes me wonder why they are so popular and whether they bothered to research their animal at all. What is the number one thing we know about ball pythons? They do nothing. So to put all of that effort into nice naturalistic enclosures, at least for this species seems like a bit of a waste of time although there are tricks a keeper can use in order to encourage even a ball python to come out and about more so I'm not trying to insult anyone who's doing that with their ball pythons but it's frustrating for me with my enclosures and I'm keeping much more active North American colubrids so I can't imagine how a BP keeper must feel.

Overall the tanks vs PVC/wood terrariums vs tubs debate is stupid. The only thing you should ask yourself is do you want a sterile setup or not. Sterile means simple substrate, simple decor, simple water, if you do keep your snakes in a tub. It's stupid to keep an aquarium or terrarium out in the open with nothing but newspaper as a substrate, two hides and a waterbowl.

If you want nice decor and something to look at then get a tank or pvc terrarium or build one.

BOOM, I just ended the whole debate, there is nothing intrinsically better for a snake in any of the three described boxes just a few things are easier in some.

Just because I've seen it mentioned before, anyone who claims that their snake started eating better after being moved to a tub probably had their snakes in simple tank setups that did not appropriately address the biggest need a snake has which is security. Had they simply blocked off 3 sides with some dark opaque paper I wouldn't be surprised if they would have had the same result they did as when they put it in a tub because an enclosure with 4 see through sides is going to need more than 2 hides and some newspaper or an inch of aspen in order to address a snakes need for security.

Tubs and certain terrariums only hold heat better because of reduced airflow, not because of any actual difference in what they are made of especially at the thicknesses we use for enclosures.

How important is proper airflow? Well I know that snakes don't need as much air as mammals but having constant fresh air can't possibly be a bad thing as long as all other factors are maintained.

Tub keeping is easy mode, do snakes need nice enclosures? No. But do they need enough room to at least move around a bit? Yes, absolutely 1000000%. Tank keeping takes a bit of extra effort, if you wanna put in the effort to do it right then do it.


Anyone telling someone they are keeping a snake incorrectly purely based on the style of cage alone is an idiot.

Go to Africa, I guarantee you every ball python you find is crammed up in a small space/hole and only come out to eat. Even in rack systems, during the day the snakes are usually not roaming at all and at night their only roaming for food. There's a reason they eat, poop, breed, and seem to be virtually stress free in a tub versus a tank or display cage! I've even seen snakes go off food and once put into a smaller tub go back to feeding. Tubs are better for ball pythons versus cages/tanks, not an opinion it's a fact!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jhill001

I wish I could see the picture so I knew what you were talking about specifically but going off the other replies I'm gonna say I have a decent grasp of what's happening.

Here's the deal, ridiculously small tubs for anything but neonate snakes should be frowned upon for obvious reasons. I saw someone reference keeping an adult snake in 15qt tubs. That's around 13x8x5 inches, if someone claims to have been doing it for years then what they've been doing is abusing animals for years. Sorry, I can't even fit my foot in that cage and if someone is keeping their's in that size of a tub they don't need to be telling anyone how to take care of their snakes because they aren't doing a good job I don't think anyone here would argue against that and I know a lot of tub keepers on this forum.

Finally onto the debate any conversation like this devolves into:

Now are tubs themselves bad? No, in my opinion they aren't. And I keep my snakes in large naturalistic terrariums.

I've seen some pretty tremendous ball python setups in tanks or plastic terrariums, it honestly makes me wonder why they are so popular and whether they bothered to research their animal at all. What is the number one thing we know about ball pythons? They do nothing. So to put all of that effort into nice naturalistic enclosures, at least for this species seems like a bit of a waste of time although there are tricks a keeper can use in order to encourage even a ball python to come out and about more so I'm not trying to insult anyone who's doing that with their ball pythons but it's frustrating for me with my enclosures and I'm keeping much more active North American colubrids so I can't imagine how a BP keeper must feel.

Overall the tanks vs PVC/wood terrariums vs tubs debate is stupid. The only thing you should ask yourself is do you want a sterile setup or not. Sterile means simple substrate, simple decor, simple water, if you do keep your snakes in a tub. It's stupid to keep an aquarium or terrarium out in the open with nothing but newspaper as a substrate, two hides and a waterbowl.

If you want nice decor and something to look at then get a tank or pvc terrarium or build one.

BOOM, I just ended the whole debate, there is nothing intrinsically better for a snake in any of the three described boxes just a few things are easier in some.

Just because I've seen it mentioned before, anyone who claims that their snake started eating better after being moved to a tub probably had their snakes in simple tank setups that did not appropriately address the biggest need a snake has which is security. Had they simply blocked off 3 sides with some dark opaque paper I wouldn't be surprised if they would have had the same result they did as when they put it in a tub because an enclosure with 4 see through sides is going to need more than 2 hides and some newspaper or an inch of aspen in order to address a snakes need for security.

Tubs and certain terrariums only hold heat better because of reduced airflow, not because of any actual difference in what they are made of especially at the thicknesses we use for enclosures.

How important is proper airflow? Well I know that snakes don't need as much air as mammals but having constant fresh air can't possibly be a bad thing as long as all other factors are maintained.

Tub keeping is easy mode, do snakes need nice enclosures? No. But do they need enough room to at least move around a bit? Yes, absolutely 1000000%. Tank keeping takes a bit of extra effort, if you wanna put in the effort to do it right then do it.


Anyone telling someone they are keeping a snake incorrectly purely based on the style of cage alone is an idiot.

---

You hit it right on the head.. [emoji106]

Sent from my galaxy s8 plus