Ball python single gene morph descriptions -need feedback

My name is Kyle Atkins-Weltman, and I am a snake keeper and undergraduate researcher at the University of Kansas. I am doing a project that involves describing the inheritance and phenotypes of simple dominant or recessive ball python mutations, and I am posting here because I need help from experienced keepers and breeders. Much of my information has come from World of Ball Pythons, which I understand is not a perfectly reliable source, and so I am trying to double check all of my data. Below I have included tables for my current dataset of dominant and recessive morphs, including my current descriptions (? are ones that I need assistance in describing). I have already omitted listings that had no pictures, or no information on the breeder who first proved the trait. Furthermore, phenotypes that were listed as lines of a trait were treated as a single trait to avoid pseudoreplication (though if there is evidence of non-complimentation between different lines of any trait, please let me know). I have also included a document that illustrates our terminology, because as a scientific endeavor we must be consistent. However, I also cannot seem to figure out how to upload non-image attachments to this forum, so any help there is appreciated. I will be more than happy to share any of my findings with those who are interested once the project is finished. Thanks in advance!

P.S. if there are any new ones that I have missed, please do let me know!
Dominant morphs:

Araza	Could not determine phenotype
Ashen	Reddish-brown cranial patterning.
Bald Gene	Increased number of blotches, possibly also replacement of vertebral stripe with blotches, lateral background exhibits intrusion of paler colors between blotches, expanded whitewalls around blotches.
BiancaBall	Pale ventral coloration extends further up flanks of animal than in wildtype, particularly in connected blotches; pale coloration dimishes quickly resulting in pixelated appearance with pale yellow or white scales scattered on ventral portion of lateral blotches.
Black Adder	Loss of vertebral stripe. Possible expansion of blotches and absence of disconnected blotches.
Black Belly	Irregular and incomplete dark stripe running along ventral midline.
Black Knight	Appears to be some disruption of the broken vertebral stripe, which only appears in the form of occasional spots.
Blitz	Smaller and more fragmentary blotches with larger internal spots.
Brite Ball	?
Calico	The more ventral regions of the lateral blotches in this mutant are largely white, with some intrusion of the normal lateral background color, leading to a semi-speckled appearance.
Coffee	Increased invasion of paler brown coloration into dark lateral background coloration between blotches.
Cupid	Could not determine phenotype
Daisy	Lateral blotches tend to be broken up by numerous smaller dark spots rather than one or two large spots. Vertebral stripe possibly more continuous that it typically is.
Deme Ball	?
Enigma	Could not determine phenotype
Epic	Increased number of dorsally connected blotches, and an increase in the number of spots.
Freak	Could not determine phenotype
Fuego	Could not determine phenotype
Galaxy	Increased number of ventrally connected, multi-spotted lateral blotches. The spots within these blotches are small and irregular, giving a speckled appearance. There is also an increase in spots within the vertebral stripe.
Genetic Banded (Pacific Coast Reptiles)	Pattern consists of large, ventrally connected lateral blotches for the first ~20% of the animal's length. The posterior patterning consists of large blotches that are both ventrally and dorsally connected, forming a banding pattern. Spots are completely absent. Broken vertebral stripe is only present along the first ~20% of the animal, and from the vent to the tip of the tail.
Harlequin	Could not determine phenotype
High Yellow	Could not determine phenotype
Joppa	Could not determine phenotype
Josie Ball	Expansion of ventral whitewall. Three faded white brown spots form a triangle within the normal cranial patterning - with the "point" of the triangle pointing posteriorly. There is also an increased number of spots, largely within the dorsal regions of the ventrally-connected lateral blotches.
Jumanji Ball	Could not determine phenotype
Kosmos	Increased number of disconnected and ventrally connected lateral blotches. Within these blotches, there are many small, irregularly shaped spots, similar to those seen in the Daisy and Galaxy phenotypes. Vertebral stripe is less broken than in wildtype, with some small spots.
Ktulu	Could not determine phenotype
Leopard Ball	Lateral blotches of all types are far larger than in wildtype, often connecting to each other to form large, irregularly shaped brown bands. There is a greater number of spots than in the wildtype, and these largely occur on the dorsal sides of the flanks. The remnants of the broken vertebral stripe can be observed just behind the neck, and from the vent to the tip of the tail.
Lucifer	Could not determine phenotype
Mandarin	?
Milk Chocolate	Could not determine phenotype
Nanny Ball	The margins of the lateral blotches of all types are far more irregular than in a wildtype, and all have multiple small, irregular spots within them. The vertebral stripe is also more broken than in the wildtype, consisting of a greater number of shorter segments.
Nova	Almost all anterior blotches are single-spotted - spot is directly in the center of the blotch. The spots also occur within the broken vertebral stripe. Coloration of broken vertebral stripe is slightly brighter than the lateral blotches. Increased lateral background coloration within darkwall.
Nyala	Could not determine phenotype
Ofy	Lateral blotches are anteropsoteriorly elongated, leading to far thinner black banding. There is also a darker brown stripe between the pale ventral coloration and the typical lateral background coloration, with small flecks of black. The cranial pattern has three light brown spots, forming a triangle that points posteriorly.
Orange Glow	Lateral blotches are anteroposteriorly expanded, leading to largely brown flanks, with multiple spots. There appear to be no disconnected lateral blotches. The broken vertebral stripe is only present on the neck of the animal.
Pinstripe	The body is largely brown, with two irregular, broken black lateral stripes on the dorsolateral part of the animal. Sometimes, black coloration will project ventrally rom these broken stripes, forming something reminiscent of the wild-type pattern. There are also black spots and flecking along the body as in the wild-type. The head is brown rather than black, and each stripe that goes through the eyes is bordered dorsally by a dark brown stripe.
Radioactive	Pattern is somewhat similar to the wild-type, but the Copper brown coloration is replaced with a bright yellow. Additionally, there is a great number of small brown flecks within the yellow blotches.
Raven	Could not determine phenotype
Reaper	[Seems very similar to Galaxy and Daisy mutants]
Redhead	Reddish-brown cranial pattern, and an increased number of spots within the lateral blotches. Based on 3 photos of one individual.
Sienna	There is a larger number of dorsally connected, multi-spotted lateral blotches in this phenotype. Some blotches are both dorsally and ventrally connected, forming irregularly shaped transverse bands.
Sierra	?
Solar Ball	?
Spider	Largely brown or tan rather than black, with white or off-white ventral coloration extending dorsally, which may include flecks of tan and brown. Black patterning forms very thin partial bands in some areas, as well as dorsal and lateral spots of varying size. There is a black band going across the internasals, which projects laterally to the nasals where it becomes a lateral stripe. This stripe extends posteriorly through the eye to the rearmost supralabial, where it then projects ventrally to posteriormost infralabial. Two stripes also project posteriorly from the internasals, extending to the frontals.
Splash	?
Static	There is a greater number of dorsally-connected lateral blotches, which may also be ventrally connected to form irregular band-like patterning. Spots are irregularly distributed within these blotches. The ventral scutes show two broken, irregular longitudinal stripes of small black spots, which merge at the midline of the scutes just anterior to the vent.
Sugar	Very similar to Calico - the flanks in this mutant show a white coloration within the ventrally connected lateral blotches. Disconnected blotches are absent. Also, broken vertebral stripe is only present on the neck, and from the vent to the tip of the tail.
Super Reduced Pattern	This phenotype has far larger lateral blotches than in the wildtype, which are both ventrally and dorsally connected, Spots are far fewer in number, and broken vertebral stripe is entirely absent.
Trick	This phenotype has a greater number of lateral blotches, the vast majority of which are multi-spotted.
Twister	Could not determine phenotype
Web	There is a greater number of ventrally connected blotches in this phenotype, with some extending dorsally to form irregularly shaped bands. Spots are almost entirely absent. Posteriorly, the vertebral stripe is more broken than in the wildtype.
Wilbanks Granite	?
Woma	Nearly identical to the "Spider" mutant phenotype, but without the white patterning on the sides.

Recessive morphs:

Albino	Brown is replaced with varying shades of orange or yellow, black is replaced with white, and the eyes are red. Standard Tyrosinase-negative albino phenotype
Atomic	Could not find accessible photos.
Autumn Gloss	Vertebral stripe far less broken than in wildtype, almost completely connected from the base of the head to the tail. Ventrally-connected lateral blotches are heavily spotted. Based on four photos of one individual.
Axanthic	Same pattern as wild-type but browns are replaced with shades of gray. Supposedly become more brown with age.
Banded	Patterning consists of anteroposteriorly elongated ventrally and dorsally connected blotches, forming large tranverse bands. Spots are largely reduced, but are still present. Broken vertebral stripe absent except in the neck and from the vent to the tip of the tail. Also, ocular stripe is dorsoventrally expanded, encompassing the whole eye. There are 2 broken black stripes running along the vent.
Bengal	Copper coloration replaced with orange-brown, with greater intrusion of lateral background coloration into darkwall.
Black Axanthic	Incompatible with regular "axanthics" based on cross-breeding. Similar phenotype to regular axanthics, but do not gain brown coloration with age.
Black Lace	Vertebral stripe is far more connected than in the wildtype, and disconnected lateral blotches form occeli along the flanks.
Caramel Albino	Same pattern as wildtype, but with black replaced with a pale purple-lavender, and brown replaced with orange-yellow. Whitewall may be either white or cream-colored.
Citrus Hypo	Copper coloration replaced with orange, cranial pattern coloration is largely orange instead of black, though the margins still show the original black coloration.
Clown	Need help with this one
Desert Ghost	Copper brown coloration and all shades of brown replaced with shades of gray. Pattern identical to wild-type.
Enhancer Ball	Copper brown coloration replaced with shades of yellow. Dorsal head coloration is a light brown with black margin.
G1 Hypo	Brown colorations somewhat lighter than in wildtype, and the cranial patterning is lighter brown with a black margin
Genetic Stripe	Vertebral stripe is almost entirely unbroken. Additionally, there are no blotches on the flanks - instead, the flanks are largely Copper-brown, with occasional patches of darker brown.
Ghost	Copper brown is replaced with a light orange-brown color, with greater intrusion of lateral background color into the darkwall. Ventrall whitewall is expanded. Pattern is identical to wild-type. Based on 8 photos of 3 individuals.
Lavender Albino	Identical to Albino mutant, but black is replaced with lavender. Pattern is identical to wild-type. Based on 12 photos of 6 individuals.
Monarch	Copper brown is replaced with a tan-orange color, while black is replaced with a reddish brown.
Orange Crush	Copper brown is replaced with tan, and there is an increased intrusion of brown into the dorsal background coloration.
Patternless	All black coloration is absent - the only pattern remaining is the dorsoventral coloration, and there is a subtle remnant of the head patterning.
Piebald	Varying degrees of large, pure-white patches distributed across the body. Otherwise, color and pattern are normal
Puzzle Ball	?
Sahara	Copper brown is replaced with an off-white color.
Sentinel	Copper brown is replaced with orange-brown, and there is an inrecased amount of this lateral background color showing within the darkwalls and the dorsal background coloration.
Sunset Ball	Copper brown is replaced with an orange coloration, while the black color is replaced with a reddish-brown.
Toffee	[Cannot visually distinguish from Lavender albino based on 14 photos of 5 individuals]
Tri-Stripe	Largely brown, with three broken black stripes running down the length of the animal. The blotches of the wildtype pattern here merge together to form largely Copper brown flanks, with darkwalls extending dorsally from the vent as in the wildtype.
Albino	Brown is replaced with varying shades of orange or yellow, black is replaced with white, and the eyes are red. Standard Tyrosinase-negative albino phenotype
Atomic	Could not find accessible photos.
Autumn Gloss	Vertebral stripe far less broken than in wildtype, almost completely connected from the base of the head to the tail. Ventrally-connected lateral blotches are heavily spotted. Based on four photos of one individual.
Axanthic	Same pattern as wild-type but browns are replaced with shades of gray. Supposedly become more brown with age.
Banded	Patterning consists of anteroposteriorly elongated ventrally and dorsally connected blotches, forming large tranverse bands. Spots are largely reduced, but are still present. Broken vertebral stripe absent except in the neck and from the vent to the tip of the tail. Also, ocular stripe is dorsoventrally expanded, encompassing the whole eye. There are 2 broken black stripes running along the vent.
Bengal	Copper coloration replaced with orange-brown, with greater intrusion of lateral background coloration into darkwall.
Black Axanthic	Incompatible with regular "axanthics" based on cross-breeding. Similar phenotype to regular axanthics, but do not gain brown coloration with age.
Black Lace	Vertebral stripe is far more connected than in the wildtype, and disconnected lateral blotches form occeli along the flanks.
Caramel Albino	Same pattern as wildtype, but with black replaced with a pale purple-lavender, and brown replaced with orange-yellow. Whitewall may be either white or cream-colored.
Citrus Hypo	Copper coloration replaced with orange, cranial pattern coloration is largely orange instead of black, though the margins still show the original black coloration.
Clown	Need help with this one
Desert Ghost	Copper brown coloration and all shades of brown replaced with shades of gray. Pattern identical to wild-type.
Enhancer Ball	Copper brown coloration replaced with shades of yellow. Dorsal head coloration is a light brown with black margin.
G1 Hypo	Brown colorations somewhat lighter than in wildtype, and the cranial patterning is lighter brown with a black margin
Genetic Stripe	Vertebral stripe is almost entirely unbroken. Additionally, there are no blotches on the flanks - instead, the flanks are largely Copper-brown, with occasional patches of darker brown.
Ghost	Copper brown is replaced with a light orange-brown color, with greater intrusion of lateral background color into the darkwall. Ventrall whitewall is expanded. Pattern is identical to wild-type. Based on 8 photos of 3 individuals.
Lavender Albino	Identical to Albino mutant, but black is replaced with lavender. Pattern is identical to wild-type. Based on 12 photos of 6 individuals.
Monarch	Copper brown is replaced with a tan-orange color, while black is replaced with a reddish brown.
Orange Crush	Copper brown is replaced with tan, and there is an increased intrusion of brown into the dorsal background coloration.
Patternless	All black coloration is absent - the only pattern remaining is the dorsoventral coloration, and there is a subtle remnant of the head patterning.
Piebald	Varying degrees of large, pure-white patches distributed across the body. Otherwise, color and pattern are normal
Puzzle Ball	?
Sahara	Copper brown is replaced with an off-white color.
Sentinel	Copper brown is replaced with orange-brown, and there is an inrecased amount of this lateral background color showing within the darkwalls and the dorsal background coloration.
Sunset Ball	Copper brown is replaced with an orange coloration, while the black color is replaced with a reddish-brown.
Toffee	[Cannot visually distinguish from Lavender albino based on 14 photos of 5 individuals]
Tri-Stripe	Largely brown, with three broken black stripes running down the length of the animal. The blotches of the wildtype pattern here merge together to form largely Copper brown flanks, with darkwalls extending dorsally from the vent as in the wildtype.

nice list!


Dave Green discovered and proved out the Monsoon recessive: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...)-eggs-of-2016! it's awesome and reminds me of the Granite Burmese Python. he used to be active here on the forum, but is super busy with his projects and posts more on FB. Dave Green also hatched the 1st Super Champagne which unfortunately proved lethal. :(


also another one: i'm not sure who the breeder was who discovered the Rainbow gene or tis history, but it's one recessive missing from your list. they're really bright and gorgeous animals. here are pix of some Rainbow combos and pix that are up for sale: https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep.../trait/rainbow


i think the Leopard and Pinstripe have been proven co-dominate. Justin Koblyka believes he has Super Leopards: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-Super-Leopard


also another breeder OWAL has been trying to prove out the Super Spider. he's done it, but it's lethal like the Super Champagne. here's a recent thread: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...Spider-results


hope u stick around the forum and chime in with your insight now and then. good luck and keep us updated on your studies. :)

Thank you so much for your input! I will try to add/revise those on the list.

Also, if anyone knows how I can share .pdfs on this forum so I can show our terminology, please let me know - I REALLY need to ensure that all of my descriptions are accurate in order for my analyses to be meaningful.

Not sure if this applies but several lines of ghost have proven to be incompatible.

If you can host the pdf of a third party site like google docs or similar we certainly would have no issues with you sharing a link to it.

IMO, a number of those "dominant" mutants are likely to be better classed as "not recessive" mutants. Spider is a case in point. World of Ball Pythons has it listed as a dominant, but not recessive is more accurate. As spider mated to normal produces both spider and normal babies, spider cannot be a recessive mutant. That's all we are certain of because no one has reported a homozygous spider ball python by breeding test. What little we do know makes spider look more like a codominant mutant that is lethal when homozygous.

From what I've read on these forums, a homozygous pinstripe has been proven without reasonable doubt by breeding test, and the mutant is a dominant.

I'd really like to see that terminology pdf file.

Thanks for all the replies, this is very helpful. Yes, my main concern was that some of the things listed as "dominant" may in fact be codominant or otherwise not dominant. It is important for me to know this because obviously if I base my conclusions or findings on incorrect data, those conclusions or findings are meaningless. As soon as this reply is posted, I will edit my original post to include a link to the pdf of our wildtype description.

Dr. Del, those ghost lines are indeed important, as non-complementation means that they are different loci despite being the same [or a highly similar] phenotype. Do you know which ones in particular have been crossed and proven incompatible with each other? I know that G1 Hypo and Ghost are incompatible based on my searches so far, but if there are more that is important for me to know.

EDIT: because it won't let me go back and add to the original post, here is the link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8G...ew?usp=sharing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ax01

Dave Green discovered and proved out the Monsoon recessive: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...)-eggs-of-2016! it's awesome and reminds me of the Granite Burmese Python. he used to be active here on the forum, but is super busy with his projects and posts more on FB.


also another one: i'm not sure who the breeder was who discovered the Rainbow gene or tis history, but it's one recessive missing from your list. they're really bright and gorgeous animals. here are pix of some Rainbow combos and pix that are up for sale: https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep.../trait/rainbow

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Sorry for the double post, but I realized that I could not see the pictures in the thread on the Monsoon ball python. I could not access the photos on the post, and there is only one photo on WOBP. Ideally, I'd like to have multiple photos of multiple individuals expressing the same mutant allele, so that I know the phenotype I am describing is not just due to individual variation.

As for the rainbow, I need to see pictures of single-gene mutants in order to describe the phenotype accurately, as multi-gene mutants have their phenotype altered by multiple genes and thus I cannot accurately determine what affects are due to the gene of interest. I found a page on in on WOBP, and from what I can tell it doesn't look any different from something like lavender albino. Has someone done crossings to determine whether or not this is just a new line of an already known mutant?

^That last part sums up why this project has been taking so long. Determining what morphs are "real" and which ones are just new listings of an already-known trait is extremely difficult, and it's part of why I've been describing each phenotype.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reptilelover1995

Determining what morphs are "real" and which ones are just new listings of an already-known trait is extremely difficult, and it's part of why I've been describing each phenotype.

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With respect, I am not sure how long you have been researching but the "real" versus already known has been determined for everything on your list (and many that are not).


Some things I noted from a quick review:

Bald, Bright, Lucifer -- All of these are alleles of the BlkEL complex. Defining trait of this group is an inc-dom degree of hypomelanism with some pattern disruption. The homozygous forms are heavily hypomelanistic in the mild alleles up to leucistic in the strong alleles.

Blitz, Trick, Spider, Woma, Harlequin, Nanny, Josie, Mandarin (likely a few others) -- All are inc-dom, not dom

Harlequin is defined by having a pronounced display of the dorsal striping, often accompanied by a reduction in the display of the lateral pattern

Nanny appears to be a Harlequin-type mutation.

Axanthic -- There are four types (VPI, TSK, MJ, Joliff), none of which has been shown to be compatible with the others.

DesertGhost, Sahara, Enhancer -- Have been shown to be compatible with one another. The mutation appears to have some effect on how pigment is deposited/displayed. This is most generally seen as a mild form of hypomelanism most easily seen with how it impacts the lighter areas of pattern

Albino, Candy/Toffee -- These are proven alleles of the same gene.
Lav and Rainbow have been proven to not be compatible with Albino. Likewise I have heard it reported that Lav and Rainbow have been proven to not be compatible with one another.
The level of pigmentation displayed by Candy/Toffee, Lav, and Rainbow is markedly different between the morphs; Lav < Candy/Toffee < Rainbow

Puzzle -- Disruption to the display of patterning with the "alien heads" being blended/melded. Lateral pattern also tends to be outlined in white to a higher degree

Clown -- Patterning confined to the laterals, often causing fusing of lateral markings. Genetic black-backing. There is also a degree of hypo-pigmentation that accompanies the mutation

Great list!

You forgot to include 'Jungle Woma'. I'm actually working with the gene and plan on breeding a big female for the first time this year. It gives the snake a bit more yellow and breaks up the pattern. The super form is called a 'Puzzle Back' (Super Jungle Woma). Here's what the super form looks like, I rarely see snakes with this gene for sale, it's not even mentioned in the book you referenced.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...9e40675f1d.jpg

You are actually missing a lot of genes in your list...

Lesser / Butter - considered to be the same thing.

Coral Glow / Banana - ditto...

You may want to browse through this web page, it has most or all of the genes and combos that have been discovered to date, probably the most up to date info I have seen.

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/?filter=1

Also, keep in mind that many of these names are just made up by whoever discovered them, some I think are unfounded and complete BS (Some people name a recessive gene after their company name claiming that all their snakes are brighter than everyone else's, I won't mention any names in public LOL)

Thanks for the additional info. I have been working on this for a while, but it has been difficult to find time to focus down on it. I'm glad I've made this post, as it has already helped me gather important info.

As for the missing mutants you mentioned, due to the methods I am planning to use, I am not including incomplete dominant mutations (part of why I needed to post this, need to ensure I don't accidentally include incomplete dominant mutations).

Thanks again!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reptilelover1995

As for the missing mutants you mentioned, due to the methods I am planning to use, I am not including incomplete dominant mutations (part of why I needed to post this, need to ensure I don't accidentally include incomplete dominant mutations).

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If the goal is to weed out the inc-doms that is a bit easier.

Dominant ball morphs:

Calico/Sugar -- Suspected. No visual super produced to date but may have lethal homozygous, data is too spotty to confirm/deny
Congo -- Per Vin Russo
Pinstripe -- Has always been labeled as dominant but there are a couple of breedings that indicate that may not be correct
Leopard -- Suspected but one breeder thinks it may be otherwise

Thank you! That is very informative. As for Congo, I have still been unable to determine the actual phenotype of the mutant - it looks like a normal to me. Also, was it Vin Russo who first proved out the phenotype? I need that supplemental information for my dataset (didn't include it in the version I posted here because it was not relevant to this particular discussion).

Because the thread will not let me go back and edit my original post, I will post the revised descriptions I've got here.

Clown: Disconnected lateral blotches and broken vertebral stripe completely absent - ventrally connected lateral blotches anteroposteriorly expanded, often merging with one another.

Puzzle: Disruption of ventrally connected lateral blotches, which are anteroposteriorly expanded, sometimes merging with each other to form larger lateral markings. Whitewall is also expanded.

BriteBall: Significant reduction in spotting (based on the few images I could find of single-gene mutants), and the copper color is replaced with a pale yellow. Homozygous form is black eyed leucistic.

Keep in mind that all of these descriptions are using the terminology that I illustrated in the document I shared before, so if something seems unclear, be sure to reference that as it should show what I mean by specific terms.

Sorry to post so many times in a row, but my professor and I have decided now that we are going to incorporate co-dominant/incomplete dominant (whatever you want to call the genes with different heterozygote and homozygote phenotypes) genes/alleles into our analysis. We have figured out a way to incorporate these genes into our analysis (something we previously did not think would be possible), so now I will be trying to create a table similar to those I have already posted, but for those genes. This will take some time, as there is a lot of describing to do (and a lot of double checking to make sure I don't include multiple names of the same genetic mutation), but I will continue to update this thread as I work.

I have also reached out to the original breeders of many of the traits I have described to get their thoughts on phenotype and inheritance, and if I am given permission I will report that information here.

Thanks again for all of the help!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reptilelover1995

Thank you! That is very informative. As for Congo, I have still been unable to determine the actual phenotype of the mutant - it looks like a normal to me. Also, was it Vin Russo who first proved out the phenotype? I need that supplemental information for my dataset (didn't include it in the version I posted here because it was not relevant to this particular discussion).

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An old thread of mine, I think it was called exact effect of congo or something along those lines on here (Sorry I'm on my phone so I can't link it, I'll post the link when I get home or you can go through my past posts if you want) me and another user talked about the effects of Congo and after that I spoke with the breeder who produced my pastel butter congo and he gave me some info as well.

It was developed first by Vin Russo, and it basically acts as a clean up morph. He paired it mostly with pastel and it helps to keep pastels from the colors fading as much and keeps the patterns from muddying up as much.

The breeder who commented on my thread said that it effects each gene it's paired with differently, they worked with fire congo and it brightens up the colors a lot.

One common factor I've seen in all the congo animals I've seen is that they all have a lighter colored head.

Sent from my LG-D690 using Tapatalk

Ah, thank you very much! For some reason I was not notified of the new reply to this thread, despite being subscribed. I will try to add that information into our dataset, I just need to figure out how to phrase it using the terminology illustrated in our document (shared earlier).

By "clean up" do you mean that boundaries between different aspects of the pattern (ie between the lateral blotches and the lateral background coloration) are more defined? And by lighter head, are you referring to the cranial patterning? If so, what color is it? I need to be explicit in my descriptions for them to be meaningful.

Also, like I said I am currently working on drafting up a dataset for the co-dominant (or incomplete dominant, whatever you want to call them) morphs. I am doing as much research as I can, using WOBP for names and some basic info, and cross-referencing via any references I can find through Google or searches on here. However, as I have had less time to work on these relative to the "dominant" and "recessive" mutants, that may be reflected somewhat in my knowledge of phenotypes and possible inclusions of multiple names for single genes. I am trying to eliminate that pseudoreplication, so you will notice that I will not be including more than one "Pastel"-type entry (obviously discounting black pastel, which is different), or "yellowbelly", though there may be some copies I thought were different but that I missed. If there are any that I missed and are actually different from the ones that I list, please feel free to let me know and I will include them.

I'm hoping to have my first draft ready in the next week or two.

It has taken a long time due to a majorly busy schedule (lots of lab work and whatnot), but I have finally worked up a rough draft of all of the co-dominant mutations. Right now, our goal is to validate all of our current descriptions (this includes ones included earlier in this thread) - we want to ensure that our descriptions are accurate, and that the inheritance we list them under is accurate. One thing of note: We are NOT including different lines of the same mutant phenotype, unless those two lines display complementation (ie the different lines of axanthic). As before, those with a question mark were ones I could not describe due either to an inability to distinguish from a wildtype, or simply a lack of adequate photographs to distinguish the phenotype. For terminology, see the document I posted earlier in the thread. Thanks again for any help!

Alloy	Heterozygous form has small black spots running along the margins of the ventral scutes. Homozygous form replaces copper coloration with shades of orange [appears to have some sort of aberrant pattern]
Arctic	Possible dorsal expansion of ventral coloration, and/or expansion of whitewall. This is exaggerated even further in the homozygote.
ARP	Lateral blotches tend to expand dorsally over the spine, and disconnected lateral blotches are absent. The typical broken vertebral stripe is largely absent (though it may remain in the anterior third of the body, and disconnected blotches on the spine may be remnants of the broken vertebral stripe. Spots are larger in size and greater in number than in the wildtype. There is a lighter brown arrowhead shape within the cranial patterning, with a single black spot occuring just posterior to the parietals.
Arroyo	Cannot adequately describe heterozygote form, but homozygote form displays a far more connected vertebral stripe, with some irregular black or dark brown spots occuring within it. Additionally, ventrally connected lateral blotches are anteroposteriorly reduced. However, there is significant intrusion of the normal copper coloration into the lateral background coloration.
Asphalt
Bald Gene	Increased number of lateral blotches, possibly also replacement of vertebral stripe with blotches, lateral background exhibits greater intrusion of paler colors between blotches, expanded whitewalls around blotches. Homozygous form is black eyed leucistic.
Bamboo	In heterozygote, areas that would normally be copper are instead a vibrant silver, with a dark gray dorsal background coloration. Lateral blotches appear to be faded or possibly absent altogether. Eyes are blue. Homozygous form is blue-eyed leucistic.
Banana	Highly similar to other albino-like alleles, but this one is sex-linked. Phenotype is orange or yellow instead of copper, lavender or purple replacing areas that would normally be black or dark brown. Small black spots may accumulate over the animal with age.
Black Head	Brown blotches normally forming broken vertebral stripe are more widely spaced along the A-P axis, with anteroposterior expansion of lateral background coloration along the flanks. Near-absence of disconnected lateral blotches. Homozygote increases reduction of vertebral stripe and AP expansion of lateral background coloration.
Black pastel	Very similar to the Cinnamon phenotype - according to one hobbyist, black pastel can be distinguished by the irregular margins and black speckling found within the ventrally-connected lateral blotches. Homozygous form is a black or extremely dark brown snake with an off-white ventral coloration.
Blade	Ventrally-connected lateral blotches anteroposteriorly expanded, forming irregular bands across the body. Vertebral stripe appears greatly reduced or absent, and there is a reduction in the number of spots.
Blitz	There are a greater number of blotches in this phenotype, which are smaller than in the wildtype, and most are single-spotted. Additionally, spots may occur within some areas of the broken vertebral stripe.s
Blonde Pastel	Existing line of the "pastel" mutant phenotype
Bongo	Very similar to the Genetic Stripe mutation, I cannot adequately describe the heterozygous form, but the homozygous form has a thin, light peach-colored dorsal stripe, flanked by thin black stripes. These black stripes are in turn flanked by a reddish-brown stripe that extends approximately a third of the way down the flanks of the animal. The rest of the flanks, and the vent of the animal are a whitish-pink color. The first third of the animal's length also has a second, somewhat faded reddish brown lateral stripe approximately halfway between the ventral surface and the ventral margin of the red stripes on the dorsum. The cranial pattern is reddish-brown, and the ocular stripe is absent anterior to the eye. Posterior to the eye, it is a whitish-pink color.
Brite Ball	Significant reduction in spotting, and the copper color is replaced with a pale yellow. Homozygous form is black eyed leucistic.
Butter	Shades of copper in wildtype are lighter in coloration in this mutant, with increased intrusion of these colors into lateral background coloration. Homozygous form is blue-eyed leucistic. Is identical in phenotype to "Lesser".
Cajun	?
Callisto	?
Champagne	Heterozygous form has almost no black patterning, leading to a largely bronze or gold colored snake. There is an extreme degree of variation within individuals - some have large, dark rings distributed along the body, others may have a partial or even complete dorsal stripe, etc. Homozygous form is fatal.
Charcoal	?
Chocolate	?
Cinnamon	According to hobbyists, Cinnamon often imbues a somewhat reddish hue to the animal with a chocolate-colored background coloration, a clean vent (no markings), and single spotted ventrally-connected lateral blotches that form the shape of a keyhole (dorsal expansion and ventral constriction of the ventrally-connected lateral blotches). A similar type of pattern is seen in the Black Pastel mutant, but according to hobbyists, the whitewalls of the ventrally-connected lateral blotches are more clearly delineated in Cinnamon.
Coral Glow	Same gene as Banana, and identical in phenotype.
Disco	?
Enchi	Lateral blotches are anteroposteriorly expanded, and lead to a decrease in lateral background coloration; coloration is brighter than in the wildtype (more golden-yellow than copper), and the whitewalls and darkwalls tend to be highly faded. The homozygote is far brighter in coloration, and lateral background coloration is further reduced than in the wildtype.
Fire	Spots are fewer in number than in wildtype, and ventrally-connected lateral blotches occasionally expand dorsally to form irregular bands. According to hobbyists, color is somewhat lighter than wild-type, with a creamy-gold coloration. Homozygous form is black-eyed leucistic.
Flare	Seems identical in both heterozygous and homozygous form to the Yellowbelly morph.
Ghi	Ventrally-connected lateral blotches display a large number of very small black spots, along with an irregularly shaped central spot. Cannot adequately describe homozygote.
Glossy	?
Goblin	?
Granite	Ventrally-connected lateral blotches have many small, dark brown or black markings within them. In some individuals, the blotches forming the broken vertebral stripe are anteroposteriorly expanded, giving the stripe a more "connected" look. This is further exaggerated in the homozygote.
Gravel	Unable to describe heterozygote phenotype, but the homozygote is largely an orange-red color, with orange-yellow makings that form a broken vertebral stripe, and irregularly shaped disconnected lateral blotches.
Het Red Axanthic	Blotches forming broken vertebral stripe are fewer in number, leading to a largely black dorsum. Blotches appear to have a reduced degree of yellow pigmentation in comparison to the wildtype, and there are more spots within the lateral blotches. Homozygous phenotype has a similar lighter coloration to other lines of axanthic, but has an altered pattern as well. In addition to the pattern alterations seen in the heterozygote, the homozygote has a broken ocular stripe, giving the appearance of two light brown spots above the nasal scales.
Hidden Gene Woma	Phenotype is nearly identical to the "woma" mutation, hence the name. Could not find any images of homozygote - is apparently lethal early in life.
Huffman	The boundary between the ventrally-connected lateral blotches and the whitewalls is more clearly defined in this phenotype, and there is an increased intrusion of browns into the lateral background coloration. Lateral blotches have an increased number of irregularly shaped spots, as well as numerous small black markings.
Hurricane	All ventrally-connected lateral blotches have a single large spot, and multiple very small black spots. In the homozygote (called Hayabusa), the ventrally-connected lateral blotches appear to be heart-shaped, as do the large single spots within them. Numerous small black markings are present within the ventrally-connected lateral blotches, as in the heterozygote.
Hydra	?
Java	?
Jedi	?
Josie Ball	Expansion of ventral whitewall. Three faded light brown spots form a triangle within the normal cranial patterning - with the "point" of the triangle pointing posteriorly. There is also an increased number of spots, largely within the dorsal regions of the ventrally-connected lateral blotches.
Jungle Woma	Much more yellow coloration in areas that are normally copper in the wildtype, and expanded blotches of all types, further breaking up the background coloration. Reduction in black coloration is further exaggerated in homozygote.
Lace	?
Lace Black Back	Blotches forming the broken vertebral stripe are far fewer in number, leading to a largely uninterrupted dorsal background coloration; possibly with a greater number of single-spotted lateral blotches. Homozygous form shows anteroposterior expansion of single-spotted ventrally-connected lateral blotches, which expand into each other to form largely brown flanks with dark brown or black spots.
LC Black Magic
Lemonback	Nearly identical to the "Fire" phenotype, but with a dark spot in the cranial patterning not present in the Fire, according to breeders. Homozygote is black-eyed leucistic.
Leopard Ball	Lateral blotches of all types are far larger both anteroposteriorly and dorsoventrally than in wildtype, often connecting to each other to form large, irregularly shaped brown bands. There is a greater number of spots than in the wildtype, and these largely occur on the dorsal sides of the flanks. The remnants of the broken vertebral stripe can be observed just behind the neck, and from the vent to the tip of the tail. Often there are multiple irregular black spots distributed along the ventral scales.
Lesser	Identical in phenotype to Butter mutant.
Lori	Heterozygote is extremely difficult to describe in terms of phenotype, is apparently very subtle according to breeders. According to breeders, Homozygote starts out with an axanthic coloration, then accrues brown colors with age. [Pattern is clearly aberrant in homozygote, but cannot adequately describe it]
Mahogany	Cannot adequately describe heterozygote form, but homozygote form is a completely dark brown or black snake, as in Cinnamon and Black Pastel mutants, but with an orange stripe running down the dorsum, sometimes quite bright. Possibly on the same locus as Black Pastel and Cinnamon, but does not result in a completely black snake when combined with cinnamon or black pastel.
Mandarin	?
Mocha	Could not find any pictures of homozygote, heterozygote is difficult to describe.
Mojave	Blotch coloration is often lighter than in wildtype, with increased intrusion of browns into the dorsal and lateral background colorations. Furthermore, there are a greater number of single-spotted lateral blotches than in the wildtype, and fewer double or multi-spotted ones. According to WOBP description, another trait of Mojaves is a completely white underbelly. Homozygote is blue-eyed leucistic. However, occurring to at least one BP.net user (JLC), the homozygous form of Mojave is different from that of other BEL-complex alleles such as Butter, in that it has a more silver cranial patterning and there may be remnants of black patterning showing as a very faint gray. [Would be interesting to see if any remnants of pattern remain if examined under UV]
Mystic	Heterozygote appears rather similar to Mojave, but the homozygote has a yellowish-white broken vertebral stripe, with white ventral coloration extending dorsally halfway up the flanks, and dorsal background coloration is a dark purple. Midway down the flanks, there are a series of yellowish white, single-spotted disconnected lateral blotches. Ventrally-connected lateral blotches are present, but are extremely subtle, and are dorsally reduced. Eyes are blue in homozygote.
Nanny Ball	The margins of the lateral blotches of all types are far more irregular than in a wildtype, and all have multiple small, irregular spots within them. The vertebral stripe is also more broken than in the wildtype, consisting of a greater number of shorter segments.
Orange Dream	Appears to replace the typical copper color with a more orange coloration, though some individuals appear brown. Homozygote is far more orange.
Paint Ball	Cannot adequately describe heterozygote form, but homozygote has an extremely increased intrusion of copper into the dorsal and lateral background coloration, and a large amount of small black markings within the lateral blotches, giving a speckled look to the flanks.
Pastel	Intensified yellow pigmentation to various degrees, that tends to "brown out" with age. The homozygote has a more yellow coloration that tends to fade less with age, reduced black patterning, faded cranial pattern, and an intrusion of white or pale purple coloration into the lateral and dorsal background coloration. Some may have green eyes.
Phantom #2	?
Quake
Raven	Expansion of all black or dark brown coloration, including darkwalls, dorsal background coloration, and spots. According to the original breeder, this is even more extreme in homozygous form.
Red Stripe	Increased connection in vertebral stripe, copper coloration is more red than in wildtype according to one source, and blotches are larger, leading to reduced dorsal and lateral background coloration. Could not find any information on homozygote phenotype.
Russo Het Leucistic	Very subtle in heterozygous form - cannot discern phenotype. Homozygote is blue-eyed leucistic.
Sable	Within ventrally-connected lateral blotches, there is a large number of small black markings, and each of these blotches contains a single black spot of varying shape. In the homozygote, the ventrally-connected lateral blotches are farther apart from one another, separated by the dark brown or black lateral background coloration. The spots in the ventrally-connected lateral blotches appear to be larger than in the heterozygote, and the small black markings are greater in number.
Satin
Saturn	?
Scaleless Head	There is a patch on top of the head stretching from behind the frontals, forward to the internasals, that is devoid of scales. The homozygote is a completely scaleless snake.
Shredder	?
Spark	Appears to have an aberrant heterozygote phenotype that is difficult to describe. Homozygote has patterning similar to the Genetic Stripe and Bongo mutants, with a light peach lateral coloration, and a tan vertebral stripe flanked by broken stripes of dark purple, which have irregular margins. Lower along the flanks, there are a great number of very small, dark purple markings, forming a speckling pattern. This color also forms a broken outline of the wildtype cranial pattern, which is otherwise the same color as the flanks, with a few spots of dark purple showing through.
Special	Heterozygote form has a more broken vertebral stripe than is commonly observed in the wildtype, and ventrally-connected lateral blotches extend dorsally over the spine in some areas, forming broken bands. Whitewall is far more distinct from blotch coloration than in wildtype. In the homozygous form, the wildtype coppers are replaced with white or very light tan-orange, while what would normally be black is replaced by a peach-orange color. The eyes are blue in the homozygote, as in other BEL-complex homozygotes. There also appear to be some white spots within the cranial patterning.
Speckled	Heterozygote phenotype is unclear, homozygote has highly irregular margins in the markings of the broken vertebral stripe, as well as a great number of very small black markings within the lateral blotches.
Specter	Heterozygote phenotype is unclear. Homozygote has a wide, unbroken tan vertebral stripe extending from the base of the head, flanked by two slightly thinner black stripes. The lateral background coloration is a cinnamon color as opposed to the black or extremely dark brown found in the wildtype, and the darkwalls that normally accompany this coloration are extremely reduced or entirely absent.
Spider	Largely brown or tan rather than black, with white or off-white ventral coloration extending dorsally - where the two colorations meet, the pattern takes on a pixelated appearance, with many small specks of white, tan, and brown. Black patterning forms very thin partial bands in some areas, as well as dorsal and lateral spots of varying size. There is a black band going across the internasals, which projects laterally to the nasals where it becomes a lateral stripe. This stripe extends posteriorly through the eye to the rearmost supralabial, where it then projects ventrally to posteriormost infralabial. Two stripes also project posteriorly from the internasals, extending to the frontals.
Spotnose	Heterozygote has a greater number of lateral blotches and spots within these blotches than the wildtype, along with distinct brown cranial markings [cannot describe the shape]. The tip of the snout may or may not have a spot, but this may occur in normal animals as well. Homozygote has a similar pattern to the wildtype, but with an even greater number of lateral blotches and spots than the heterozygote, and there is a large blotch covering much of the normal cranial background coloration. Top of cranium extensively patterned with blotchlike coloration, revealing only isolated dark brown or black spots along the lateral margins Cranial background coloration is only visible as isolated dark brown or black spots along the lateral margins of where this pattern would normally occur, sometimes with one or two small spots on the posterodorsal surface of the head. There are also two dark spots on the nasal scales. The coppers and browns found in the wildtype are instead replaced with sulphur yellows.
Taronja	Uncertain on the phenotype of this morph due to low number of individuals. The heterozygote appears to have orange blotches rather than copper, and homozygote appears to have a similar color change, but in addition to this, the ventrally-connected lateral blotches are anteroposteriorly expanded, leading to almost completely orange flanks. At least one individual of the heterozygote phenotype has diffuse white speckling along the ventrolateral surface, but this may not be characteristic of this phenotype as it is not seen in any of the others.
Trick	This phenotype has a greater number of lateral blotches (both disconnected and ventrally-connected), and almost every single blotch has at least a single spot, with most ventrally-connected lateral blotches having two or three.
Vanilla	Heterozygote appears lighter in color than the wildtype, and actually gets lighter during the life of the animal, according to breeders. There is an intrusion of brown into the cranial patterning. The homozygote has lighter yellows in place of brown coloration, and increased intrusion of these colors into the lateral and dorsal background coloration.
X-treme Gene	Heterozygote phenotype unclear - Homozygote has wide, unbroken vertebral stripe extending from the back of the head to the tip of the tail; Spots are present within this broad vertebral stripe; ventrally-connected lateral blotches anteroposteriorly expanded, sometimes to the point of merging, resulting in reduced lateral background coloration.
Yellow Belly/Ivory	Heterozygote phenotype similar to wildtype and in some cases difficult to distinguish from wildtype; however, most individuals exhibit more coloration between typical lateral blotches than wildtype, in some cases involving laterally connected pale blushes and in others involving blotch-like ventrally connected pale markings surrounded by intense black scales but lacking whitewalls (these markings referred to as "flames" by one hobbyist); scutes also particularly patternless relative to wildtype, but scales immediately adjacent to scutes appearing to exhibit more intense checkerboard patterning than wildtype. Some hobbyists have reported "a marking on the top of the head." Homozygote phenotype is pinkish white and largely lacking pattern outside of a thin, nearly continuous yellow vertebral stripe extending from the back of the cranium to the tip of the tail and, at least in some cases, pigmentation on the dorsal surface of the cranium involving either large discrete patches of yellow, diffuse pigmentation across the dorsal surface of the head, or diffuse dark pigmentation flanked by thick yellow ocular stripes extending from the back of the cranium to the inter-oculars.
Sulfur	Unclear phenotype in heterozygote. Homozygote is a black-eyed leucistic, but some may develop patches of yellow or orange (similar to piebaldism).

Sorry to double post, but I really need feedback to ensure that my descriptions and inheritance pattern data are verified, as any statistical analyses I do using this data are only useful if the data itself is accurate. Please let me know if I have missed anything in inheritance patterns, or even just confirming that descriptions are accurate is useful, as it allows me to move them into the dataset of verified morphs.

I see you don't have a description for Asphalt. That's one morph that I find very interesting, most people would consider it co-dominant having a super form. However, even the trained eye can't tell if you have an Asphalt or a Normal. In my mind this would be a recessive gene, the super being the recessive visual. The Gravel is similar, I think they are just different lines of the same morph, the Asphalt being discovered in Canada, the Gravel in the US. I'm pretty sure both were discovered by accident when pairing up with Yellowbelly to create the very impressive allelic Highway and Freeway complexes.

There are several morphs that I've never heard of before, I wonder if some were named based on a single individual and then not proven genetic? (Alloy, ARP, Arctic, etc..)

Chocolate is a dark snake, super Chocolate is even darker.

Disco is a 'lightener' or enhancer, similar to Fire or Xtreme Gene. It's allelic to Fire and a Disco Fire is a white snake (in the same complex).

Blade is interesting... It's usually only associated with the Clown gene. I think it was originally used to describe a reduced pattern Clown. I've often wondered it it's actually Enchi. I've seen Enchi Clowns and they look exactly like a Blade Clown.

I think 'LC Black Magic' may be multiple genes. Not sure what the LC means but a Black Magic is Black Pastel + Mojave.

Scaleless Head may not be missing any scales on the head, it may have 'micro scales'.

Thank you for your reply! As you note, many of these things have only a single photograph associated with the entry (or none at all), which makes me hesitant to include them in my dataset as, like you said, they may not be genetic at all. These are the types of things I am trying to remove from my dataset, so that I am only including mutants with clearly established inheritance patterns and understood phenotypic alterations. I may end up removing any mutants with fewer than 2 individuals known from the dataset.

With respect to disco being a "lightener" gene, do you mean that it lightens all coloration (blotch coloration AND background coloration), or just one particular aspect of the coloration?

With chocolate, I'm guessing you are referring to brown coloration being darker? I just want to make sure I have the right understanding when I am writing revised descriptions.

I have one request. If you are going to do this paper (and the larger BP industry) any justice, don't take the same path that whoever jacked up proper genetics terminology did when they first described BP mutations.

For example, use "incomplete dominant" instead of "co-dominant" when speaking about Pastel, Banana, Orange Dream, Enchi, etc. There are no known actual co-dominant mutations in ball pythons. Yet, that term is so ingrained in our hobby lingo I'm not sure it'll ever find its way out. There are other examples as well, but this one should be pretty easy to get right.

Thanks, and good luck! :gj:

Picture of the difference between incomplete dominant and co-dominant:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...odominance.jpg

wow you're BP vocabulary and concepts are all over the place. lemme try to help out...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

I see you don't have a description for Asphalt. That's one morph that I find very interesting, most people would consider it co-dominant having a super form. However, even the trained eye can't tell if you have an Asphalt or a Normal.

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i think a trained eye can def. tell the difference. the challenge is trying to tell the difference between an Asphalt vs. Gravel vs. Yellowbelly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

In my mind this would be a recessive gene, the super being the recessive visual.

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in your mind only. it's not recessive and there is no such thing as a het Asphalt. please don't spread misinformation (b/c u can't distinguish an Asphalt vs. Normal).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

The Gravel is similar, I think they are just different lines of the same morph, the Asphalt being discovered in Canada, the Gravel in the US.

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that's actually a good theory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

I'm pretty sure both were discovered by accident when pairing up with Yellowbelly to create the very impressive allelic Highway and Freeway complexes.

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Highways and Freeways are not complexes. they are (designer) morphs part of the Yellowbelly/Super Stripe complex.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

There are several morphs that I've never heard of before, I wonder if some were named based on a single individual and then not proven genetic? (Alloy, ARP, Arctic, etc..)

Chocolate is a dark snake, super Chocolate is even darker.

Disco is a 'lightener' or enhancer, similar to Fire or Xtreme Gene. It's allelic to Fire and a Disco Fire is a white snake (in the same complex).

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i'm not familar w/ Chocolate but do own Fire combo's and a (Pastel) Disco Fire. a Disco Fire is not a white snake. to put it simply, it looks like a Fire Pied w/ various degrees of whites or ringers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

Blade is interesting... It's usually only associated with the Clown gene. I think it was originally used to describe a reduced pattern Clown. I've often wondered it it's actually Enchi. I've seen Enchi Clowns and they look exactly like a Blade Clown.

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no, it's not an Enchi. Blade is it's own morph, bred and isolated from reduced BHB Clowns by EBN and Markus Jayne.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

I think 'LC Black Magic' may be multiple genes. Not sure what the LC means but a Black Magic is Black Pastel + Mojave.

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LC Black Magic is a morph w/ LC being the breeder’s (combined) acronyms. Black Magic is a (designer) morph made of the base morphs u mentioned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

Scaleless Head may not be missing any scales on the head, it may have 'micro scales'.

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Scalessless and Micro-Scales are different. Micro-Scales do have missing scales on the head, but also have smaller scales overall throughout he BP body.

sorry but I think u need to hit the books harder. i'm still a noob myself but there's alotta misinformation here and i've seen u get stuff wrong in your other posts too.

Thanks again for the helpful feedback! While I agree that there is an issue with terminology being used inconsistently, even discussing with my professor it has been difficult to really determine an exact difference between "codominant" and "incomplete dominant" alleles, unless you actually know the underlying coding sequences involved. Still, in any paper we write we would probably use incomplete dominance to refer to the currently cataloged "co-dominant" mutations. However, we can only publish this work if our dataset is robust and is thoroughly verified (ie every morph we include has been confirmed in inheritance pattern and is confirmed to be distinct from other existing mutants).

Thanks for the clarifications! I'm no geneticist, just a hobbyist trying to understand it all. I think it helps to at least make an attempt to discuss these things so we can iron out the details along the way, feel free to correct any errors I make. I've only been doing this for a few years now, seems like I learn something new every day!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reptilelover1995

Thanks again for the helpful feedback! While I agree that there is an issue with terminology being used inconsistently, even discussing with my professor it has been difficult to really determine an exact difference between "codominant" and "incomplete dominant" alleles, unless you actually know the underlying coding sequences involved. Still, in any paper we write we would probably use incomplete dominance to refer to the currently cataloged "co-dominant" mutations. However, we can only publish this work if our dataset is robust and is thoroughly verified (ie every morph we include has been confirmed in inheritance pattern and is confirmed to be distinct from other existing mutants).

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The exact difference is clear, though. Phenotypically, there are no known co-dominant mutations in ball pythons.

As an example, when you cross a Pastel with a Spider you get a Bumblebee, which is a blend of the two mutations. This indicates phenotypical incomplete dominance. You do not get a "zebra-patterned" animal which shows areas of both individual Pastel and individual Spider pattern. That result would indicate phenotypical co-dominance. The same phenotypical blending of mutations holds true with every known mutation in ball pythons. If your professor cannot see this difference, I would be questioning their understanding of the two terms.

As far as I have understood it, an incomplete dominant allele is an allele where there is a partial expression of one allele in the heterozygote that is achieved fully in the homozygote, whereas a co-dominant allele is where the heterozygote expresses both phenotypes simultaneously (as the classic example being of red and white alleles showing a pink flower) - I had not heard of the regional partitioning as differentiating between the two, but I will try to see if there are any papers through Web of Science to back that up [if I find some, I will post the source information here]. However, like I said, I do plan on using the term incomplete dominant in any publication I write as it does more accurately fit the description of these mutants.

Also, @Ax01, you say that Asphalt is actually identifiable in the heterozygote form - what phenotypic features distinguish a heterozygote Asphalt mutant from a wildtype? Also, could you elaborate on the phenotype of the Blade mutant? I have been able to find very little information, and only have one picture of a single individual, so I cannot reliably classify it or distinguish it from certain other mutants.

Found a source, that is a bit on the older side, but here is what it says (direct quote):
"Within and between text books of genetics definitions are in consistent. Various names have been used: partial dominance, incomplete dominance, codominance, lack or absence of dominance, semidominance, mosaic dominance, intermediate dominance, imperfect dominance, and transdominance. The definitions vary from text to text and depend on interpretation of allelic function, although an allele's function is seldom known and often
must be assumed."
Source: Miller, W. J., and W. F. Hollander. 1995. Three neglected advances in classical genetics. Bioscience 45(2): 98-104.

There may certainly be other opinions out there, and I will continue searching, but right now my main task is to verify my dataset of morphs to ensure I have only included actual mutants, so I will not necessarily be focusing on the definitions of these terms.

That's fair (in regards to many sources needing to be cleaned up and also needing to assume the allele's function).

Your understanding is accurate. Incomplete dominance would be the full expression of the gene in the homozygous form. In ball pythons terms: Pastel = heterozygous, Super Pastel = homozygous; Yellow Belly = heterozygous, Ivory = homozygous, etc, etc, etc. The full expression of the genes are the "super" forms of said genes, hence the assumption that these genes are incomplete dominant.

To put it another way: In codominance, both alleles show themselves in the phenotype (blood types, for example). In incomplete dominance, an intermediate phenotype appears (the pink pigment example). Even more reason to make the incomplete dominant assumption over the codominant assumption.

Thus, your decision to use the term incomplete dominant is solid. And has been my one little point this entire time. :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

The exact difference is clear, though. Phenotypically, there are no known co-dominant mutations in ball pythons.

As an example, when you cross a Pastel with a Spider you get a Bumblebee, which is a blend of the two mutations. This indicates phenotypical incomplete dominance. You do not get a "zebra-patterned" animal which shows areas of both individual Pastel and individual Spider pattern. That result would indicate phenotypical co-dominance. The same phenotypical blending of mutations holds true with every known mutation in ball pythons. If your professor cannot see this difference, I would be questioning their understanding of the two terms.

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Bumblebee is not an example of either codominance or incomplete dominance. Two genes must be able to form a gene pair to be either. Spider and pastel are independent genes, as shown by breeding data. Bumblebee x normal produces normal, spider, pastel and bumblebee babies. If spider and pastel genes could form a gene pair, then a bumblebee x normal mating would only produce spiders and pastels.

As far as I can tell, here are the presently preferred definitions of codominant and incomplete dominant:

Codominant = the heterozygote is different from the two homozygotes because both genes contribute to the heterozygote's phenotype. Both genes produce functional products. The heterozygote's phenotype may be more or less intermediate between the phenotypes of the homozygotes, may be outside the range of the phenotypes of the homozygotes, or may show both homozygotes' phenotypes. The burmese and siamese genes in cats are codominants. Both genes produce functional products, and the heterozygote is the the tonkinese cat, which is roughly intermediate in color between burmese and siamese cats.

Incomplete dominant = the heterozygote is different from the two homozygotes. Only one gene produces a functional product, which produces the heterozygote's phenotype. The heterozygote's phenotype is generally more or less intermediate between the phenotypes of the homozygotes.

Most mutant genes have not been characterized as to whether or not they produce functional products. Some people use "codominant" as a collective term for such genes where the heterozygote is different from the two homozygotes. (The BioScience paper referenced two posts up is on the web at http://www.ringneckdove.com/Wilmer&#39;s...bioscience.htm). Others use "partial dominant" as the collective term. The pro geneticists do not seem to have settled on a collective term.

I think a case could be made that the mojave gene is codominant in the strict sense to the corresponding normal gene. Mojave ball pythons can be distinguished from both normals and super (homozygous) mojaves, and super mojaves are not pure white. The lesser gene can form a gene pair with the mojave gene, and the super lesser is pure white. If the lesser gene is nonfunctional, then it seems to me that the mojave gene's product is somewhat functional. The Russo gene is also in that set alleles; it may also be codominant to the normal gene.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reptilelover1995

Also, @Ax01, you say that Asphalt is actually identifiable in the heterozygote form - what phenotypic features distinguish a heterozygote Asphalt mutant from a wildtype? Also, could you elaborate on the phenotype of the Blade mutant? I have been able to find very little information, and only have one picture of a single individual, so I cannot reliably classify it or distinguish it from certain other mutants.

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lol i'm not good with technical descriptions. an Asphalt looks like a Yellowbelly which has "rich coloration, a marking on the top of the head, distinct flames coming up from the belly, a clear belly, and a checkered pattern along the edges of the belly." a Blade has normal colors and a reduced pattern. it's pattern has little dotting and with it being wider at the top and narrowing as it goes to the belly looking like propeller blades. of course there's variation between one example to the next for all BP's. i can pick them out most of the time but i'm not good w/ their descriptions lol. sorry, someone else more technical will pop by to help u out on that. :gj:

Thanks, paulh. That's the reason I followed-up with my post below that one.

Admittedly, Bumblebee wasn't the best example. Or even really a good one. :P It was only meant to illustrate the difference between showing a blended phenotype versus one that expresses both genes fully - not to imply that Pastel and Spider were allelic.

I have no objection to the term "incomplete dominant" so long as it is defined as producing a blended phenotype in the heterozygote and makes no assumptions as to allelic products. My point has always been that incomplete dominance and codominance have different mechanisms that produce results that are difficult for the naked eye to distinguish.

By the way, the biochemists have identified 5 mechanisms that can produce incomplete dominance or codominance. So I predict future changes in the definitions. :D

Again, thanks everyone for the very helpful replies! Right now, like I said, the most important thing is for me to verify as many single-gene mutant phenotypes as possible, so that my dataset (and thus the statistical tests that result from it) are as robust as possible.

I have created a Google spreadsheet with the basic parts of the dataset, as well as a "verification" column. What I need people to do is to go through this spreadsheet and put a "V" under the morphs that they know to be legitimate. In the comments, please leave your username and which morphs you verified, as I need to know my sources. If someone has already put a "V" next to one that you know to be legitimate, just put another V - that way I know that morphs with multiple "V"s have been examined by multiple people.

In the comments, please feel free to make suggestions for descriptions and whatnot, as that will help me improve my dataset.

Here is the link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paulh

My point has always been that incomplete dominance and codominance have different mechanisms that produce results that are difficult for the naked eye to distinguish.

By the way, the biochemists have identified 5 mechanisms that can produce incomplete dominance or codominance. So I predict future changes in the definitions. :D

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For your first point, do you have any sources that I could look at for this (preferably peer-reviewed papers)? This may be a topic I could address in my paper, if I have formal literature to back up any points I make.

As to your second point, what biochemists are you referring to (ie what institution)? Is there a publication I could check out? So far, I think the most obvious mechanism for incomplete dominance would be allelic insufficiency, but understanding other types of phenomena that result in codominance or incomplete dominance would be highly useful.

Point 1:
I can cite a genetics textbook used at the local university, but I have to get into the univ. library to get the information. I'll get back to you on that. In the meantime, you can look at the entry on "incomplete dominance" in Encyclopedia of genetics / editor, Jeffrey A. Knight ; project editor, Robert McClenaghan. 1999. 2 vols. ISBN : 089356978X. And see "Hemoglobin genetics" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle_cell_trait. Using different tests, it classifies the sickle cell gene as a recessive, an incomplete dominant, and a codominant mutant. :)

Point 2:
Wilkie, A. O. 1994. The molecular basis of genetic dominance. J Med Genet. 31(2): 81-98. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1049666/.

Thank you very much! This certainly helps - especially the latter source. I don't know how I missed that one in my literature search. I will certainly have to cite that in my discussion.

Reference for point 1:
Snustad, D. Peter, and Michael J. Simmons. Principles of Genetics. John H. Wiley, 6th ed., 2012, ISBN 978-0-470-90359-9.

See Incomplete Dominance and Codominance, pp 63-64. This is essentially a shorter restatement of the entry in the Encyclopedia of Genetics.

I will send pdf copies of all the source material to anyone who PMs me with their e-mail address.

I would like to say thank you again to everyone who has helped - right now I have narrowed my list down to 79 verified single-gene mutations. This is certainly enough to do my statistical analyses.

However, my professor noted that one thing we should try to include in our publication is the origins of the different morphs. While I know that the vast majority were introduced via imported individuals displaying an aberrant phenotype, I would like to be able to note any exceptions, such as mutants that appeared in a clutch hatched from an imported wildtype female, or de-novo mutations that appeared in captive-bred lines. It would also be important to include some statistics on ball python importation (ie how many animals have entered the US pet trade through importation annually), so if anyone knows where I might find that information, that would be fantastic. The only "source" I was able to find was from the HSUS, and given that they have an investment in portraying the exotic pet trade as harmful, their numbers would not be a reliable source.

I would see if Micheal Cole of BallRoom PythonsSouth would know the import figures.

Outback Reptiles also does a ton of importing.