Known Genetic Defects?

I found this list:

List of genetic defects/mutations in reptile morphs (from research on the internet, so some things may not be true):

BALL PYTHONS
Spider genes: any spider morph ball may suffer from mild to severe wobbles and thought to be lethal in homozygous form (doubling of the gene).
Woma and Hidden Gene Woma: Wobbles
Champagne: Wobble
Super Sable: Wobble
Powerball: Wobble
Sable x Spider: severe wobbles and difficulty hatching
Champagne x Spider: Lethal gene
Spider x Woma: Lethal
Champagne x Hidden Gene Woma: Severe Wobbles
Pearl: often times lethal
Super Champagne: lethal
Desert: fertility issues in the females
Caramel Albino: lower fertility in females and kinking
Super Cinnamon/Super Black Pastel: Duckbill and more rarely kinking
Super Lesser Platinum/Super Butter: bug-eyes
Lesser Platinum x Piebald: Small eyes
Banana/Coral Glow: the males may produce weird gender ratios
Albino: Associated with eye problems, inbreeding, and perhaps lowered immunity.
Blue Eyed Lucy: they may develop bug-eyes
Lavender: in some blood-lines their may be kinking

Over at http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forum...-morphs-7.html

However that post was dated 2016 and I am just wondering if this is a comprehensive list. Saves people that are new to the hobby hitting landmines if they have basic Google skills.

- Joppsta

Best list around
http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

rofl got beat

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Albino: Associated with eye problems, inbreeding, and perhaps lowered immunity.

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I have to disagree

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Blue Eyed Lucy: they may develop bug-eyes

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Yes but not all, it concerns Super Lesser and Super Butter, not Super Mojave, or Lesser Mojave or Super Russo

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Lavender: in some blood-lines their may be kinking

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I disagree too


As for a list I would rather go by this one http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

This is the first time I've seen Spider x Woma is lethal. Is that accurate? I've never seen a Spider Woma, but wasn't sure if lethality was confirmed.


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According to Kevin at NEW ENGLAND REPTILE'S spider to spider isn't lethal!

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Originally Posted by robert7107

According to Kevin at NEW ENGLAND REPTILE'S spider to spider isn't lethal!

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There has never been a live one. They are not viable. You may be looking at old information.

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Originally Posted by robert7107

According to Kevin at NEW ENGLAND REPTILE'S spider to spider isn't lethal!

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Old info!

Newer info https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...pider+breeding

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

There has never been a live one. They are not viable. You may be looking at old information.

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To be a bit pedantic I think that would be better phrased as " Nobody has seen a viable, prove-able homozygous spider"

:oops:

LOL. You sir are of course correct. I have not seen that word for awhile (pedantic).

It is next to impossible to prove something does not exist. I think statistically however we can say a viable (hobby terms) Super Spider, especially since we now know the mutation acts like a co-dom, has not and will not be produced.

So once again, is Spider x Woma lethal? And is Woma truly dominant or in the same category as Spider where the homozygous form is lethal?


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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I think statistically however we can say a viable (hobby terms) Super Spider, especially since we now know the mutation acts like a co-dom, has not and will not be produced.

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Oh, SuperSpiders have been produced... As dead white things. There are even a few pics floating around.

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Originally Posted by BPGator

So once again, is Spider x Woma lethal?

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I have seen plenty of animals said to be SpiderWoma but I have never seen one of these animals actually breed out to be this. Most often they end up being just Spiders. And given that Woma also displays neuro issues my feeling is that, like Spider and any other neuro morph, the Spider x Woma is also lethal.

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Originally Posted by BPGator

And is Woma truly dominant or in the same category as Spider where the homozygous form is lethal?

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I would say it is in the same category as SuperSpider. All the Woma x Woma clutches that I have been able to track have turned up nothing and the common denominator of neuro between the morphs it is not unreasonable to assume a similar fate for the superform

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Oh, SuperSpiders have been produced... As dead white things. There are even a few pics floating around.




I have seen plenty of animals said to be SpiderWoma but I have never seen one of these animals actually breed out to be this. Most often they end up being just Spiders. And given that Woma also displays neuro issues my feeling is that, like Spider and any other neuro morph, the Spider x Woma is also lethal.




I would say it is in the same category as SuperSpider. All the Woma x Woma clutches that I have been able to track have turned up nothing and the common denominator of neuro between the morphs it is not unreasonable to assume a similar fate for the superform

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The keyword for the Super Spider was "viable". I have seen the pictures as well. It is why I avoid Spider x Spider crosses.

It is my suspicion that woma, champagne etc will prove out to be co-dom just like the spider and some if not all turn out to be allelic with spider. It would be interesting to attempt to breed them to a blackhead and see what happens if it has not already been tried. I was talking to Mr. Davis about an adult blackhead to experiment with but it was just too much money to spend to just satisfy my curiosity.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

I have seen plenty of animals said to be SpiderWoma but I have never seen one of these animals actually breed out to be this. Most often they end up being just Spiders. And given that Woma also displays neuro issues my feeling is that, like Spider and any other neuro morph, the Spider x Woma is also lethal.

I would say it is in the same category as SuperSpider. All the Woma x Woma clutches that I have been able to track have turned up nothing and the common denominator of neuro between the morphs it is not unreasonable to assume a similar fate for the superform

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I couldn't find a proven spider woma either. I also found woma x woma clutches extremely hard to find giving the confusion orginally with the hgw.

I actually bought a woma female a couple years ago with the intent of just trying it out and seeing what happens. Didn't think about it at the time but I guess I won't be breeding my spider female to other spiders any more for data. Looks like the OD woma pin pastel i just got will be busy. Spider and woma female for data and also breeding him to my od pin fire female to make more possible super pins because I love long term projects lol.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I couldn't find a proven spider woma either. I also found woma x woma clutches extremely hard to find giving the confusion orginally with the hgw.

I actually bought a woma female a couple years ago with the intent of just trying it out and seeing what happens. Didn't think about it at the time but I guess I won't be breeding my spider female to other spiders any more for data. Looks like the OD woma pin pastel i just got will be busy. Spider and woma female for data and also breeding him to my od pin fire female to make more possible super pins because I love long term projects lol.

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I thought pin didn't have a super form?

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Originally Posted by OTorresUSMC

I thought pin didn't have a super form?

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Every mutation has a super form. Since pin is dominant you would not be able to visually identify it. It would look no different whether it was a super or not a super. The full expression of the gene has already been reached with the hetero version. The only way to know if it is a super pin would be to breed it.

Double post

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Every mutation has a super form. Since pin is dominant you would not be able to visually identify it. It would look no different whether it was a super or not a super. The full expression of the gene has already been reached with the hetero version. The only way to know if it is a super pin would be to breed it.

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Given I could only find 2 people admit to proving out a super pin, there still might be a subtle difference we just don't know what to look for yet. I currently have 3.4 pos super pins and they have pretty varying looks. Between proving some of then out and my orange dream ones I hope to make, I'm hoping to have a nice sample size to really look at them. I also try to keep in touch with others who have possible super pins to see if any prove out for them.

Super pins had a long running rumor of being lethal also, once a few of these super pins prove out and publicly shown, we can bury that rumor for good

Most recent pic I have
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...psxjuowpad.jpg

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Given I could only find 2 people admit to proving out a super pin, there still might be a subtle difference we just don't know what to look for yet. I currently have 3.4 pos super pins and they have pretty varying looks. Between proving some of them out and my orange dream ones I hope to make, I'm hoping to have a nice sample size to really look at them. I also try to keep in touch with others who have possible super pins to see if any prove out for them.

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I work a lot with pin. So far I have not produced any Super Pins at least none that I have held back. Next season I am doing a few more pin to pin crosses. I will keep you updated on anything looking unusual.

This is the YouTube video of Kevin from nerd talking about spider to spider .




Time 1:03
https://youtu.be/-fhnR5YdGdI

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Originally Posted by robert7107

This is the YouTube video of Kevin from nerd talking about spider to spider .
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He offers no data to draw a conclusion, even when asked to follow up. Yet we have other evidence that says it's lethal. Out of the big breeders he is probably the best there is as far as the snake part of the hobby. Science related parts of the hobby are not his strong suit imo. You can form your own conclusion.

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Originally Posted by robert7107

This is the YouTube video of Kevin from nerd talking about spider to spider .




Time 1:03
https://youtu.be/-fhnR5YdGdI

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Yep but info and video are old, since several people have posted pictures of the Super Spider (see my link above), same thing happened with other mutations as well until what we thought we knew was disproved.

Ok.. iam going by what I have I saw . personal I wouldn't chance it an ruin a year of breeding or make a animal suffer from a major birth defect it's not in me...

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I'm pretty sure that the super champagne has already been produced. http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...per-champagne/

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Originally Posted by Ogre

I'm pretty sure that the super champagne has already been produced. http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...per-champagne/

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Dave green produced two of them, both died like many other pearl type animals.

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Originally Posted by robert7107

This is the YouTube video of Kevin from nerd talking about spider to spider .




Time 1:03
https://youtu.be/-fhnR5YdGdI

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Kevin says words to the effect that spider to spider is not lethal and then moves on. That can be taken two ways:
1. There are living homozygous spider ball pythons.
2. Mating a spider ball python to another spider produces living young.

If Kevin meant #2, then I agree with him. Even if homozygous (super) spider ball pythons die before hatching, mating two spiders would still produce living spider and normal babies.

I think the thing to take away from this is something Kevin says in the interview, there's no science involved in any of this this entire industry exists from regular people either doing something they enjoy or something they see as profitable or both. We are playing god so to speak. Making pairings and combinations that statistically would never happen in the wild. Because of this the responsibility is on us to be ethical in our pairings and decisions. While there may not be "definitive" proof, if there is enough for an educated guess that a certain pairing will produce lethal or deformed results those pairings shouldn't be made period. Now something like a wobble, while not ideal, I don't think is grounds to not make a pairing. That's my opinion only and solely based on the fact that spiders clearly thrive those with and without wobbles. But pairings that produce snakes that die shortly after hatch or rarely make it to term just shouldn't be done. No matter how beautiful we think the resulting Pattern/color may be. Sorry for my ramble i was bored lol.

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Originally Posted by OTorresUSMC

I think the thing to take away from this is something Kevin says in the interview, there's no science involved in any of this this entire industry exists from regular people either doing something they enjoy or something they see as profitable or both. We are playing god so to speak. Making pairings and combinations that statistically would never happen in the wild. Because of this the responsibility is on us to be ethical in our pairings and decisions. While there may not be "definitive" proof, if there is enough for an educated guess that a certain pairing will produce lethal or deformed results those pairings shouldn't be made period. Now something like a wobble, while not ideal, I don't think is grounds to not make a pairing. That's my opinion only and solely based on the fact that spiders clearly thrive those with and without wobbles. But pairings that produce snakes that die shortly after hatch or rarely make it to term just shouldn't be done. No matter how beautiful we think the resulting Pattern/color may be. Sorry for my ramble i was bored lol.

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I highly doubt people are purposely pairing snakes just to see the white offspring die, its not very economical. If you wanna see a white snake, makes some BEL. If anything I'm probably the unethical one planning on pairing womas together and woma spiders, but that is purely to find the truth about them, data gathering. It has nothing to do with potential pattern/colors or money.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I highly doubt people are purposely pairing snakes just to see the white offspring die, its not very economical. If you wanna see a white snake, makes some BEL. If anything I'm probably the unethical one planning on pairing womas together and woma spiders, but that is purely to find the truth about them, data gathering. It has nothing to do with potential pattern/colors or money.

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Well that's sort of what I'm getting at I feel as tho there is already enough info out there to avoid those particular pairings. Let's face it these are genes that have been around for years and if those offspring were viable they would already exist. And I'm not saying people are doing it to see them die I'm saying they are doing it like you trying to see "welllll is it really lethal" I just personally believe there is enough info to make that call. If pearls or super spiders were viable Nerd would already be selling them for 3K a piece lol.

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Originally Posted by OTorresUSMC

Well that's sort of what I'm getting at I feel as tho there is already enough info out there to avoid those particular pairings. Let's face it these are genes that have been around for years and if those offspring were viable they would already exist. And I'm not saying people are doing it to see them die I'm saying they are doing it like you trying to see "welllll is it really lethal" I just personally believe there is enough info to make that call. If pearls or super spiders were viable Nerd would already be selling them for 3K a piece lol.

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The only info is the absence of records or the animal itself. Try finding records of a woma x woma pairing, most refer to hgw x hgw before people knew they were hgw and not woma. woma x spiders are claimed to be viable by many as "they have one" yet I haven't been able to find one that actually proved out to have both woma and spider gene. So there no evidence of them being lethal besides the absence of evidence. What if woma is just a dominant morph, what if spider womas are allelic. Given I feel it is unlikely looking at correlations with other neuro morphs, still the thing is we don't know, we just assume. I'm even fine with educated assuming, but what data are we assuming based off of? Almost nothing.

Pinstripes used to be in the same situation, people shouting about how they don't exist and/or are lethal. Yet there was no evidence to back that claim up either, then we had a couple people prove them out (given both poorly documented) so here we are 16 years after the gene was founded and finally have a few people that might start proving out a super pin transparently. Bad information and believing in the absence of evidence is the reason we haven't seen super pins on the market for 10 years.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

The only info is the absence of records or the animal itself. Try finding records of a woma x woma pairing, most refer to hgw x hgw before people knew they were hgw and not woma. woma x spiders are claimed to be viable by many as "they have one" yet I haven't been able to find one that actually proved out to have both woma and spider gene. So there no evidence of them being lethal besides the absence of evidence. What if woma is just a dominant morph, what if spider womas are allelic. Given I feel it is unlikely looking at correlations with other neuro morphs, still the thing is we don't know, we just assume. I'm even fine with educated assuming, but what data are we assuming based off of? Almost nothing.

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Breeding black head to woma might be more productive than spider to woma. The black head and spider genes seem to be allelic, so if black head and woma are allelic, then spider and woma are also allelic. With black head/spider ball pythons viable, then black head/womas are likely to be viable, too.

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Originally Posted by paulh

Breeding black head to woma might be more productive than spider to woma. The black head and spider genes seem to be allelic, so if black head and woma are allelic, then spider and woma are also allelic. With black head/spider ball pythons viable, then black head/womas are likely to be viable, too.

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If I had a blackhead I would try it, but I do not.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

It is my suspicion that woma, champagne etc will prove out to be co-dom just like the spider and some if not all turn out to be allelic with spider.

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Originally Posted by paulh

Breeding black head to woma might be more productive than spider to woma. The black head and spider genes seem to be allelic, so if black head and woma are allelic, then spider and woma are also allelic. With black head/spider ball pythons viable, then black head/womas are likely to be viable, too.

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The idea that Spider, Champ, Woma and HGW might be allelic has been around for a while, Nick Mutton first mentioned it to me five or six years ago. I had the same thought about breeding Blackhead to them to prove it out shortly after BH and Spider were shown to be allelic. To date HGW/BH and Champ/BH have been made but I have not heard of them being bred out. The HGW/BH was done by Matt Leher (sp??) three years back so I would think it should be breeding size by now assuming it was male. The first Champ/BH I heard of was made in '16 and the guy was a first time breeder and did not know the sex of the animal. I have not heard anything about how that animal has matured/fared...