Spider breeding

I have read conflicting information on breeding spider to spider. Some people have said you don't get any good eggs. Is this true? I was thinking of putting my banana/spider male to a spider female but want to make sure it's worth the work and I will have s good clutch.

http://www.owalreptiles.com/superspider.php

The answer you need and more so is here.

I get that super forms will not come of the pairing I am
suggesting, but will the eggs that don't contain spider/spider gene fair well?

What would the averages say about the % of eggs that would contain bad genes? Specifically the spider/spider gene that would die off.

25% chance of hitting the double spider so 25%chance per egg of failure

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Two sites I was checking gave me differnt odds. One said 33 and the other said 25. How come the calculators don't say anything about issues like this one? Not sure if I will pair them or put my butter male in with her

It would be 25% chance of egg failure due to the way odds work and because those eggs will be super spiders. The spiders you do hatch will just be normal spiders. Calculators do not account for this because people didn't believe that the super spider existed or what other reason they had.

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Originally Posted by Bcycling

Two sites I was checking gave me different odds. One said 33 and the other said 25. How come the calculators don't say anything about issues like this one? Not sure if I will pair them or put my butter male in with her

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25% = The percentage of super spiders out of all eggs.
33% = The percentage of super spiders among the spider babies. That figure assumes that super spiders live and that super spiders look like spiders.

Think of the babies from a spider x spider mating as a pie that is divided into quarters. One quarter of the pie are the normals, one quarter is the super spiders, and the other two quarters are regular spiders. One quarter (25%) of the whole pie (all the eggs) is the super spiders.

We can tell the difference between normals and spiders. So remove the normal babies (25% of the pie). Assume that super spiders live and that we cannot tell the difference between spider and super spider. That leaves 3 quarters of the pie as spiders of some sort. One quarter (super spiders) out of 3 quarters (all spiders) equals 33% of all the spiders are super spiders.

Clear as mud?

As far as I know, the spiders and normals from a spider x spider mating are just as healthy as the spiders and normals from a spider x normal mating. That goes for a banana spider x spider mating, too.

Banana spider x spider produces
normals
banana
spiders
banana spiders

Butter x spider produces
normals
butters
spiders
butter spiders

Choose which mating produces the preferred set of babies.

One of the calculators was basically telling me 25% and another telling me 33%, now I see how they got different numbers. I was assuming it was the 25%

Now I may pair the spider x spider/banana. I know the odds are probably like 1 in a trillion, but let's just say this weird looking spider pops out, survives, and is proved to be a super. What would the value on an animal like that even be. Seems to me it would be more of getting your name as the first to successfully produce one that really any money due to the fact that spiders really are a low $ animal. Do u think this is correct thinking?

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Originally Posted by Bcycling

Now I may pair the spider x spider/banana. I know the odds are probably like 1 in a trillion, but let's just say this weird looking spider pops out, survives, and is proved to be a super. What would the value on an animal like that even be. Seems to me it would be more of getting your name as the first to successfully produce one that really any money due to the fact that spiders really are a low $ animal. Do u think this is correct thinking?

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There have been a number of people who have already hatched SuperSpiders out, all of which have died. There is neither money nor fame to be gained from it.

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Originally Posted by Bcycling

Now I may pair the spider x spider/banana. I know the odds are probably like 1 in a trillion, but let's just say this weird looking spider pops out, survives, and is proved to be a super. What would the value on an animal like that even be. Seems to me it would be more of getting your name as the first to successfully produce one that really any money due to the fact that spiders really are a low $ animal. Do u think this is correct thinking?

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I would lay very good money on the fact one never survives. Why waste potential clutch money on failed eggs? Why produce animals that will die? Learn about this mutation. Super spider will not survive.

To intentionally pair snakes from which the known result would be babies that hatch, suffer and die?

Never said I was going to do the pairing just trying to educate myself. Actually, by asking the question and doing research I found there to be many more issues with different pairings that I never knew about. Please understand that some people on here actually ask questions to learn rather than just jump into things. Is the pairing I was suggesting still one I might consider, to be honest I haven't decided. It all has to do with what snakes I own and what I want to produce. If I currently want to produce spider bananas my only real option is to pair my male spider banana to my female spider. Will I do it? I doubt that I will but I am still trying to learn everything I can.

My goal was never a super spider. It was spider bananas. I just wanted to know other possibilities to the clutch if I did pair them.

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Originally Posted by Bcycling

Never said I was going to do the pairing just trying to educate myself. Actually, by asking the question and doing research I found there to be many more issues with different pairings that I never knew about. Please understand that some people on here actually ask questions to learn rather than just jump into things. Is the pairing I was suggesting still one I might consider, to be honest I haven't decided. It all has to do with what snakes I own and what I want to produce. If I currently want to produce spider bananas my only real option is to pair my male spider banana to my female spider. Will I do it? I doubt that I will but I am still trying to learn everything I can.

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Pairings that result in known, post-hatch mortalities should be avoided. The snakes you own, if paired, will result in known, post-hatch mortalities. Yet you are undecided about breeding them.

Owning a male and female does not obligate you to pair them. Because you now know the risks to this pairing... maybe you could acquire another snake that would give you the desired outcomes without the mortalities.

Here's the thing. Say each female produces 8 eggs. You could pair your banana spider to the spider, statistically you get Normal, banana, 2x spider, 2x banana spider, super spider, super spider banana. Which statistically leaves you with 6 healthy snakes. A banana spider to a normal statistically gives you 2x normal, 2x banana, 2x spider, 2x banana spider.

So really you only cutting yourself out a banana and a normal doing that pairing, but if you have the possibility, it would be much better to breed the spider female to another male and breed the banana spider to another non-spider female, giving you much better odds at hitting the snakes you might want to produce.

I don't see anything unresponsible about doing the pairing, the market is flooded with sub 200 dollar animals, no harm in producing less animals if it still meets your goals

I disagree with this statement. From what I have read almost all of the spider/spider pairings die within the egg. Very few actually go term.

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Originally Posted by DLena

To intentionally pair snakes from which the known result would be babies that hatch, suffer and die?

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When did super spiders start hatching?

My position is this (and it's a big bone of contention, and I'm not trying to start WW III): I will not knowingly breed snakes that will result in the deaths of the babies - in or out of the shell - or in the creation of physically deformed or neurologically impaired babies. Enough happens accidentally. I know there are beautiful spiders and spider combos and champagnes, and HGW... but I don't think, now that we are fully aware of the situation, that they should be bred just because we like how they look.
This mentality is why we have German shepards that can't walk properly because of their hips, Collies that can't see, Pugs that can only birth their babies by C-section and those babies need nasal surgery so they can breathe properly.
As breeders, creating morphs and breeds for our own pleasure, it is inherently our obligation to do right by these "man made" creatures.
And I see it in black and white, no gray. "Well it's just a little wobble." Or "But it eats, sleeps and goes to the bathroom just fine." Is fine if it's accidental. I have a baby AHS with a kink that will never be bred but wasn't bad enough to be fed off. BUT to intentionally breed knowing the bad outcome is ethically wrong for me.

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Originally Posted by DLena

My position is this (and it's a big bone of contention, and I'm not trying to start WW III): I will not knowingly breed snakes that will result in the deaths of the babies - in or out of the shell - or in the creation of physically deformed or neurologically impaired babies. Enough happens accidentally. I know there are beautiful spiders and spider combos and champagnes, and HGW... but I don't think, now that we are fully aware of the situation, that they should be bred just because we like how they look.
This mentality is why we have German shepards that can't walk properly because of their hips, Collies that can't see, Pugs that can only birth their babies by C-section and those babies need nasal surgery so they can breathe properly.
As breeders, creating morphs and breeds for our own pleasure, it is inherently our obligation to do right by these "man made" creatures.
And I see it in black and white, no gray. "Well it's just a little wobble." Or "But it eats, sleeps and goes to the bathroom just fine." Is fine if it's accidental. I have a baby AHS with a kink that will never be bred but wasn't bad enough to be fed off. BUT to intentionally breed knowing the bad outcome is ethically wrong for me.

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You are back peddling what you orginally said. There is no suffering we know of, there is nothing post hatch problems you speak of in 2 posts. It's a failure to thrive. There's no chance of these failure to thrive animals to effect later generations like all of the animals you list above. We can't use them to do what you imply as they fail to thrive. There is no economic gain as I show in the post above. If you find something ethically wrong with that, thats fine. Your problem however seems to be far more focused on the spider gene itself rather than the super spider that cannot do any of which you want to imply.

I do see how there is a ethics debate, with spiders and super spiders, I've had that debate with myself. But If you want to have a discussion with substance let's at least stick to things that are true.

I didn't know this would go there. Personally I have an issue with people saying spiders have a defect. I don't find them defective in any manner. Actually like the way the move. Is it different, yup. Does that mean it is negative, IMO no. It's different, that's all I have ever seen with them. Yeah they are quirky and weird, but that's why I like the gene. I have never seen one so bad that it doesn't thrive on its own. Heck, I have three that have the spider gene, all with different wobbles and they all eat, sleep, handle, and poop better than any of the mojavies, butters, or phantoms I have. Ok one of my phantoms eats better, but he is just a pig. I actually see the wobble as a
good alarm. If they are wobbling bad, they are stressed. Wish all
my snakes could tell me when they are stressed. Ethical decisions are each of ours to make on this topic. Am I shooting for a super spider, no way, I just was thinking of putting the banana with the only female that hasn't gone for me
this year. Will I? Who knows, it all depends on how my other males do with her I guess.

I'm not a snake expert; I'm working off of what I learned from OWAL Morph Issues, several articles and books, Herp Society speakers, and affected snakes that I have seen.
I don't believe I backpedaled (?). I originally made a quick post, then I made a deeper post trying to articulate my personal pov with extrapolated examples of man-made wrongs (my opinion).
Something I am extremely well versed in...collies and their eye anomaly. It took many generations of breeding to "fix" the elongated snout and lack of "stop" at the eye that was desired, into the breed, and it wasn't until the AKC standard was set, that people realized/acknowledged that breeding for these particular characteristics caused a shift in eye placement, shape and size that was detrimental to eye function.
Does it cause pain? No. Can the animal still eat, sleep, poop, breed? Definitely. Does the dog know any different? No. Those facts don't make the continued breeding of affected dogs okay (for me).
At what point do we decide the wobble is too much? Or the duckbill? Or the bulgy or tiny eyes? How many generations will it take before the the "little issue" becomes indicative of a deeper problem (if it ever will)?
The first BP I bought was an albino female, and a champagne male came with her. His wobble is bad whenever he tries to interact with anything...being held, climbing, feeding time. Does he know any different? I don't imagine he does. He has thrived (eats, sleeps, poops, grows). He doesn't act like he is in pain.
But I cringe when it's time to feed him because he can't strike and hit his ft rat to save his life. I feel really bad when his head is wobbling all over.
I didn't intend to have untruths in anything I said. I'm trying to articulate how I view breeding and our obligation to the animals we are choosing to create.
The OP asked for opinions while mulling over breeding plans. I gave the OP my opinion. The OP's statements were contradictory (hence I considered them to be mullings). The OP seemed to be saying: I've researched the pairing and found this concern about it, but these are the snakes I have, and this is what I want to get, so I'm probably going to breed them anyway.
I realize this is long. I'm not trying to be a jerk or cause upset. This issue/mindset is a very tender spot for me. I responded emotionally.
Take care.

And failure to thrive is indicative of a problem. Doesn't that mean they don't eat well or grow properly and they die? That happens to human babies as well. It's a terrible thing. I know they're just snakes, but they're living beings. They aren't just acceptable losses to me.

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Originally Posted by DLena

And failure to thrive is indicative of a problem. Doesn't that mean they don't eat well or grow properly and they die? That happens to human babies as well. It's a terrible thing. I know they're just snakes, but they're living beings. They aren't just acceptable losses to me.

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Not a single super spider has gone full term, they don't hatch, so how could they eat? With everything you are saying you seem to be very misinformed about what actually happens. I would suggest you look into the facts first then form an opinion. I'm not saying there isn't an ethics debate, but you still need correct facts to discuss it.

I almost just submitted this long reply about the ethics of breeding, but that really got off the point. Here is what I was really wondering, I always heard the pairing of two spiders was lethal. Had I researched it much when I submitted the post? Not really. My concern really was for the eggs that didn't end up with the double spider genes. Well, after reading some and discussions here, I realize they would be fine. I would have a 25% on average failure of eggs. Ok, that might be ok with me, as my whole breeding project really has very little to due with money or numbers I produce. I bred snakes for money 25 years ago, and actually got out to go to college. Now a few years back my daughter wanted a pet snake. When I saw what has happened with ball pythons in the past 25 years I was amazed. I mean look at the animals that are being produced, they look amazing! This breeding "project" I am helping my daughter with is more a life lesson on working hard to produce what she wants. Right now she is shooting for bels, purple passions, any mystic potions. Will she get one? I am hoping. For me I get the the pride of seeing her enjoy doing this and "funding" her project. She, at 12, knows more about genetics than I do, can identify all the different more better, and truly does care about the animals and who the ones she produces goes to. Will she make money with them?, who knows but as long as she is learning I love to see a kid working with animal instead of sitting on some video game all day. We have discussed the spider pairing and she is on the fence about the pairing, as am I. To her it is about the ethical debate, to me it's more about what we get out of a clutch to keep as hold backs. I really like the banana combos and I think that's one way we are headed, but this is all her projects so we will see what she decided.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply.

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Originally Posted by Bcycling

If I currently want to produce spider bananas my only real option is to pair my male spider banana to my female spider. Will I do it?

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This is a completely untrue statement.

If you want to produce more Banana Spiders then you can breed your male Banana Spider to any female and you have 1:4 odds of producing another Banana Spider. No different than breeding a Bumblebee or a Mochi or a PastelYB.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Not a single super spider has gone full term, they don't hatch

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I know of four cases where SuperSpiders have left the egg (some of those may have been cut by the breeder, I never asked that detail) and I have rumors of three others that I have not been able to confirm. So they do, on very rare occasion, go full term. That said, every single one has died within hours.

For me that statement was true. All my other females are unable to breed at this point, so for me it is true. Next season it will be differnt, but for now it is true.

I can see I am somewhere in between on this one. I will and do breed spiders. I like them. I have not and do not intend to breed spider to spider. I will never say never but I am avoiding it. I do not like creating non-viable babies. I do not like creating babies that cannot be sold. Guaranteed dead falls into cannot be sold. I do not mess with any combination that has a higher than average rate of producing defective animals. A defective animal just worsens your odds of getting what you want out of the breeding. Say you have a 1/16 of getting what you want and then you add the potential defect, what happens to your odds?

Everyone has their own ethical line. What they can live with they do. It is not my place to judge. What I do believe to be true though is that you are playing a numbers game and whether you are chasing a specific morph or you trying to make a little cash on the side, spider to spider just is not the way to go unless there is another must have gene lurking in there. The better option is to plan your pairings so that the whole problem is avoided in the first place.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Not a single super spider has gone full term, they don't hatch, so how could they eat? With everything you are saying you seem to be very misinformed about what actually happens. I would suggest you look into the facts first then form an opinion. I'm not saying there isn't an ethics debate, but you still need correct facts to discuss it.

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I don't see where I ever specifically mentioned spider x spider. I am talking about any known pairing that routinely produces deformed offspring. My facts are accurate. I'm sorry that my presentation of them was too "rough draft" and created your misunderstanding.



I know of four cases where SuperSpiders have left the egg (some of those may have been cut by the breeder, I never asked that detail) and I have rumors of three others that I have not been able to confirm. So they do, on very rare occasion, go full term. That said, every single one has died within hours.

...thank you.

For me that statement was true. All my other females are unable to breed at this point, so for me it is true. Next season it will be differnt, but for now it is true.

...the ability to delay gratification is also a very important life lesson. What harm would there be to waiting until next year, when you could do a different pairing?

respectfully submitted,
Darlene

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Originally Posted by DLena

I don't see where I ever specifically mentioned spider x spider. I am talking about any known pairing that routinely produces deformed offspring. My facts are accurate. I'm sorry that my presentation of them was too "rough draft" and created your misunderstanding.



I know of four cases where SuperSpiders have left the egg (some of those may have been cut by the breeder, I never asked that detail) and I have rumors of three others that I have not been able to confirm. So they do, on very rare occasion, go full term. That said, every single one has died within hours.

...thank you.

For me that statement was true. All my other females are unable to breed at this point, so for me it is true. Next season it will be differnt, but for now it is true.

...the ability to delay gratification is also a very important life lesson. What harm would there be to waiting until next year, when you could do a different pairing?

respectfully submitted,
Darlene

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i understand your personal opinion at the matter and can respect that. The statement of personal gratification seems way off base. She, and I, have waited three years to grow our snakes to appropriate size, so I think we know about delaying gratification. My question was always about the possibility off all other eggs being viable.

On on that same token, if you breed ball pythons, what morphs? I am sure I can find more than 4 people who have had issues with those morphs that came out of the egg. I would honestly say with the thousands of times spiders have been paired if only 4 have ever made it out I find it extremely unlike to occur. If some eggs don't make it, so be it. That's natures way of dealing with things.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

I know of four cases where SuperSpiders have left the egg (some of those may have been cut by the breeder, I never asked that detail) and I have rumors of three others that I have not been able to confirm. So they do, on very rare occasion, go full term. That said, every single one has died within hours.

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Fine there is no public record of them hatching. Only one I can see is Tom's and that egg obviously was ripped open. Given the rarity of it though, I still don't see it as significant. It would be really nice if others would go public with there info though.

Dlena I go back and read and still see references as talking about spider x spider. If that's not the case we have a big misunderstanding, so I apologize.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Given the rarity of it though, I still don't see it as significant.

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A fair point I concede.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

It would be really nice if others would go public with there info though.

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Well... Given how readily people in this hobby are to attack you if you say something that contradicts the word of one of the "leaders" in the hobby, it is not a terrible surprise that few people like to talk about these things in public. Heck... I have been saying the SuperSpider was terminal for nearly a decade and yet there is still a sizable portion of the hobby that refuses to accept the idea. You can only yell into the void for so long before it becomes tedious and you focus your efforts on other, more productive things

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Dlena I go back and read and still see references as talking about spider x spider. If that's not the case we have a big misunderstanding, so I apologize.

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I think, perhaps, that you are confusing Dlena with the OP... ???

There is no good reason to do a spider x spider pairing. Why anyone would do a pairing that would produce guaranteed failures is beyond me when there are endless options. Just because you personally don't have another female available doesn't mean you should cut your losses and just do it anyway for the few that will survive. That would be considered very irresponsible breeding. You have plenty of other options. You could wait a year or you could choose from the many breeding ready females for sale right now if you need to breed right now. There is no excuse for pairing two snakes that will produce known failures.