Cage manufacturing and lead time. Is there a better way?

Honestly I'm a little annoyed by the whole thing. Animal Plastics should be a little more upfront on how long it's going to be before you can actually put your snake into the cage. 3+ weeks for a quick ship enclosure with zero customization and then I actually get it and put it together to find out I have to wait even longer because sealant needs time to dry properly. I'll be happy with the enclosure once it's usable but that doesn't change my irritation now.

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Originally Posted by Bmocken

Honestly I'm a little annoyed by the whole thing. Animal Plastics should be a little more upfront on how long it's going to be before you can actually put your snake into the cage. 3+ weeks for a quick ship enclosure with zero customization and then I actually get it and put it together to find out I have to wait even longer because sealant needs time to dry properly. I'll be happy with the enclosure once it's usable but that doesn't change my irritation now.

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I can see how you are annoyed 😒

But now moving forward, if you expand you will have a good handle on the planning.

As for being upfront. You know you have to assemble the cage yourself which takes about 30 mins and you dont have to seal it if you dont want. You will just have piss seeping into the cracks and draining out on your floor. So technically, the cage is ready for a snake in like 30 mins. If you are looking for a already assembled plug and play cage, then check out Boaphiles. But be prepared to pay a lot more for the same size caging.

Thing about caging is you should already have a set up ready to go before you even bring home the snake. And when it's time to upsize the caging, the old caging obviously will still work for the 3 months or so it takes to get a new cage ready.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

I usually give it a week to dry.

As for being upfront. You know you have to assemble the cage yourself which takes about 30 mins and you dont have to seal it if you dont want. You will just have piss seeping into the cracks and draining out on your floor. So technically, the cage is ready for a snake in like 30 mins. If you are looking for a already assembled plug and play cage, then check out Boaphiles. But be prepared to pay a lot more for the same size caging.

Thing about caging is you should already have a set up ready to go before you even bring home the snake. And when it's time to upsize the caging, the old caging obviously will still work for the 3 months or so it takes to get a new cage ready.

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I already have an enclosure. This is an upgrade and I have time but it doesn't change the fact it's annoying.

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Originally Posted by Bmocken

I already have an enclosure. This is an upgrade and I have time but it doesn't change the fact it's annoying.

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Lol yeah. I'm pretty much used to it now as i have a few AP cages and have had other PVC cages. My advice though is do a REALLY good job sealing it the first time so you dont have to redo it in a year or so lol. I'm going to have to reseal my T10s as soon as i get the gang into the T25s. Then after i reseal the T10s, i can put the gang from the T8s into the T10s. Luckily i sealed the T8s really well and clean so i wont have to mess with those again.

The wait time is excruciating for those of us with little patience.
Ive still got a few more to buy and I have to save up so its even longer to wait. Hopefully by the end of this year I will have at least 5 new cages total.

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Originally Posted by Miranda2

I finally got my t10 on friday and have it sealed, that stuff stinks and is a sticky mess. But I think I did a better job this time then with the first t10. I waited a week last time for it to cure. This time I am going to switch out my boa to the new cage and reseal the other one because I did such a horrible job the first time.By the third one I should be a pro.
The wait time is excruciating for those of us with little patience.
Ive still got a few more to buy and I have to save up so its even longer to wait. Hopefully by the end of this year I will have at least 5 new cages total.

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In all honesty they have a bad business plan. They really should have standard cage sizes on hand to ship. There isn't any reason to have such a long lead time on a non customized enclosure. A little inventory management would boost their sales.

As for sealing how how can you tell how good of a job you did? Mine looks sealed with a nice line of sealant.

Having a bunch of products in stock adds to the overhead of the business. That's not the best business plan either.

What you need to be concerned with is the quality of the cage you just bought. I guarantee it is top notch as AP products always are. Having to wait three weeks for such a high quality product seems very reasonable to me.

I have three large cages I ordered from a different place and it took almost a year for me to get all three. I was not very happy about that and I never recommended them to anybody. They are working fine but considering the wait time they were not as well made or made out of as good of material as the AP products.

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Originally Posted by KMG

Having a bunch of products in stock adds to the overhead of the business. That's not the best business plan either.

What you need to be concerned with is the quality of the cage you just bought. I guarantee it is top notch as AP products always are. Having to wait three weeks for such a high quality product seems very reasonable to me.

I have three large cages I ordered from a different place and it took almost a year for me to get all three. I was not very happy about that and I never recommended them to anybody. They are working fine but considering the wait time they were not as well made or made out of as good of material as the AP products.

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It can be done more efficiently.

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Originally Posted by Bmocken

It can be done more efficiently.

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It sure can.....for a price. You want to pay it?

You are going to be hard pressed to find another builder at their price point that offers such a high quality product both in design and materials.

They have excellent customer service and are highly thought of in the hobby, for good reason.

I have a long reply, but I'm going to go drop it in the general business talk section, as it wandered off the sealant dry time topic.


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Although my thoughts below are about a suggestion fot Animal Plastics, they really apply to anybody building enclosures, or hides, or even breeding.

In another thread, another member said this about Animal Plastics' turnaround time and methods:

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In all honesty they have a bad business plan. They really should have standard cage sizes on hand to ship. There isn't any reason to have such a long lead time on a non customized enclosure. A little inventory management would boost their sales.

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I expect its because very few people buy a "stock" cage - just for a T8, options for sliding door cage locks, basking shelf, and circle screens all change the machining, and probably so do the heat and light options. Machining the pieces for the necessary options is more efficient than going back and add making changes after the parts are produced. Even if you're doing it all with hand tools. It really messes up your work flow.

Also, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts they don't keep an inventory of finished enclosures, except for those produced since the last shipment sent or the balance of a multi-unit order. Maintaining inventory costs time, money, and effort. You need *organized* storage space, a tracking system, and more material-handling.

Hiring more people to do the jobs and renting more space is not always an answer. With more employees and facilities, more oversight is required, which has a very large and real risk of taking that attention from quality control and customer service.

Buying more CNC machines to increase production has the same issues - CNC operation is a skill, and new operators would have to be trained on AP's products/processes at very least, and would require supervision. Plus space requirements, and possibly more support staff - materials handlers feeding machines, packing orders, etc. More time lost to supervision.

Quality, customer service, and fast turnaround - pick two. With AP we get the quality and customer service, and the price is that we have to wait our turn on the CNC machine. You can't always just throw money at a "problem" to "fix" it!

No, I'm not in the enclosure business, but I have a business of my own making and selling things, and have considered the expansion options - details (materials, tools) change, but the broad outlines of the issues remain the same.


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Exactly! :gj:

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Originally Posted by Bmocken

In all honesty they have a bad business plan. They really should have standard cage sizes on hand to ship. There isn't any reason to have such a long lead time on a non customized enclosure. A little inventory management would boost their sales.

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No, actually they have great business plan! They sell EVERYTHING they make, and production is sold out 2-3 months in advance. No inventory costs and no stress about moving inventory.

This means no inventory storage, no yearly taxes that they have to pay on inventory, just taxes on raw materials.

The only way shorten the delivery lag time is to produce more. To do that, they would have to work in either an extra shift or two. Heck, they may be doing that sometimes already. Or, they may need to buy more machines. The one(s) they have can only produce so many units a day. How much is machinery, $5k?, $20k?, $100k?

Along with that machine means more employees, a new or more, bigger building(s). This takes capital, capital cost money (interest). If they hire a certain number(50?) of employees they have to provide medical benefits which are astronomical.

Now, they deal in raw materials with waste. Not a lot, but some, such as the big window holes for the doors. Sure, they use those pieces for shelf brackets, but there is still waste. New employees will have a learning curve which means mistakes and even more waste.

More employees mean more problems too, they are not always the cure, they are constant headaches. What if a key person is injured in a wreck on the way to work? Production may be slowed down. What if a key woman goes on maternity leave? They quit without notice? What if, what if? It's limitless.

I'm just touching the tip of the iceberg.

So, with all of the new expenses to placate customers and keep them from whining they may have to increase prices 25-40% and no more special discounted priced cages (sale items) just to cover the new expenses.

What will these higher prices do?

They will decrease demand. Folks will go elsewhere to buy cages for less money. Now they have to lay off some folks. They still have to pay for the machines, the building leases. Their inventory will increase, which will increase their taxes. How long can they continue to pay these now extra non needed expenses before going out of business?

The above examples are just a sampling of what comprises the curse of the Mom and Pop, small business owner. Running a successful small business is a delicate balance which requires perfect timing and risk for expansion.

Trust me, they are tired of answering countless phone calls and emails about "where is my cage?" That costs them precious time and money. If they could streamline things better, they have done so or are working on it. Manufacturing is not as easy as it appears.

I don't think that I mind waiting for a well priced high quality cage. The alternative may not be to my advantage after all.

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Originally Posted by Bmocken

It can be done more efficiently.

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Probably

But not enough to give you the instant gratification you desire at the same price.

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Originally Posted by Reinz

Probably

But not enough to give you the instant gratification you desire at the same price.

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The typical American "I want it now" attitude.

What's that saying?

Good things come to those that.........

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Originally Posted by Reinz

Probably

But not enough to give you the instant gratification you desire at the same price.

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I'm nkt looking for instant gratification just for them to be a bit more upfront as to how long it actually takes. Like I said several times now, it's a good enclosure. Just wish as a consumer I was a little more informed by them as to how long this actually took.

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Originally Posted by Reinz

No, actually they have great business plan! They sell EVERYTHING they make, and production is sold out 2-3 months in advance. No inventory costs and no stress about moving inventory.

This means no inventory storage, no yearly taxes that they have to pay on inventory, just taxes on raw materials.

The only way shorten the delivery lag time is to produce more. To do that, they would have to work in either an extra shift or two. Heck, they may be doing that sometimes already. Or, they may need to buy more machines. The one(s) they have can only produce so many units a day. How much is machinery, $5k?, $20k?, $100k?

Along with that machine means more employees, a new or more, bigger building(s). This takes capital, capital cost money (interest). If they hire a certain number(50?) of employees they have to provide medical benefits which are astronomical.

Now, they deal in raw materials with waste. Not a lot, but some, such as the big window holes for the doors. Sure, they use those pieces for shelf brackets, but there is still waste. New employees will have a learning curve which means mistakes and even more waste.

More employees mean more problems too, they are not always the cure, they are constant headaches. What if a key person is injured in a wreck on the way to work? Production may be slowed down. What if a key woman goes on maternity leave? They quit without notice? What if, what if? It's limitless.

I'm just touching the tip of the iceberg.

So, with all of the new expenses to placate customers and keep them from whining they may have to increase prices 25-40% and no more special discounted priced cages (sale items) just to cover the new expenses.

What will these higher prices do?

They will decrease demand. Folks will go elsewhere to buy cages for less money. Now they have to lay off some folks. They still have to pay for the machines, the building leases. Their inventory will increase, which will increase their taxes. How long can they continue to pay these now extra non needed expenses before going out of business?

The above examples are just a sampling of what comprises the curse of the Mom and Pop, small business owner. Running a successful small business is a delicate balance which requires perfect timing and risk for expansion.

Trust me, they are tired of answering countless phone calls and emails about "where is my cage?" That costs them precious time and money. If they could streamline things better, they have done so or are working on it. Manufacturing is not as easy as it appears.

I don't think that I mind waiting for a well priced high quality cage. The alternative may not be to my advantage after all.

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Thats not exactly how supply side economics or opportunities of scale work. Ever notice how the more of something is made the cheaper it is? Either way they have a great product. Hopefully they continue to grow.

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Originally Posted by KMG

It sure can.....for a price. You want to pay it?

You are going to be hard pressed to find another builder at their price point that offers such a high quality product both in design and materials.

They have excellent customer service and are highly thought of in the hobby, for good reason.

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I never questioned their reputation or service.

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Originally Posted by Bmocken

I'm nkt looking for instant gratification just for them to be a bit more upfront as to how long it actually takes. Like I said several times now, it's a good enclosure. Just wish as a consumer I was a little more informed by them as to how long this actually took.

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If you ever have a question give them a call. I have a few times and they were nothing but pleasant and helpful.

The last cage I ordered I added some custom touches. They contacted me to make sure I was getting just what I wanted and delivered just what was discussed. They quickly got the order changed in the system and they even saved me money in the process. Now that's service!

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Originally Posted by Bmocken

Thats not exactly how supply side economics or opportunities of scale work. Ever notice how the more of something is made the cheaper it is? Either way they have a great product. Hopefully they continue to grow.

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But many times when production goes up, quality goes down.

One of the reasons they dont stock the cages is they just dont have the space for it. They are a small family/friend business and i believe they have 1 cutting machine only so they have to cut all the pieces for each cage off that. They arent a big factory running hundreds of people in a thousands of square foot building. Actually most of the cage 'companies' are small time like Ed Lily from Constrictors NW and Jeff Ronne from Boaphiles.

I dont see how AP is doing bad business practices as they are offering a very well made cage at a very affordable price. If they didnt break down the cages for shipping, the shipping would be double or triple what it is now. I would rather save that cash and spend 30 mins putting the cage together myself and sealing it. Not like its rocket science or hard to do.

As for growth. I dont think AP is looking to become a giant factory. Like i said, they are a small family business who seems happy doing what they are doing. I've talked to Ali on the phone quite a few times and I'm guessing she is working out of the house as her kid was sick one day and she was having to deal with him at the same time lol.

They seem to be doing fine right now as they have plenty of orders i'm sure. If you want something faster, build it yourself or order a cage from Reptile Basics. If you want an AP cage, you have to get in line and wait, plain and simple. It's like the Chic-fil-a restaurant in Bellevue. That place always has a drive thru line that stretches out of the parking lot and into the street but people still line up lol.

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Originally Posted by Bmocken

Thats not exactly how supply side economics or opportunities of scale work. Ever notice how the more of something is made the cheaper it is? Either way they have a great product. Hopefully they continue to grow.

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This CAN be true if labor is not increased. But the cages are made with lots of labor. Labor is a constant that will not bring prices down. If more parts are spit out it takes more labor costs which will not decrease, only increase.

What you are talking about has to do with assuming labor costs are cut because more is produced maybe due to new introduced technology.

Anyway I have been in the situation I wrote about. I don't need to hear about theories you were taught in school. When I got my business degree I was the only one in my business classes that was in business. The professors tried to ram so much BS down our throats I finally had to shut up in fear of my grades suffering.

But you forgot to look at the people in the world today.......... "Its all about me"

I still do holsters but I do not enjoy it like I use to because everyone has the same thoughts, I should have them in stock...
There are so many colors of Kydex and I use three different colors of leather and not to mention all the different models of sidearms!!
No matter what I tried to do in the beginning it was either the wrong color combinations or they had model X with a tac light or laser....

SMH. People will find anything to complain about.

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Originally Posted by Bmocken

In all honesty they have a bad business plan. They really should have standard cage sizes on hand to ship. There isn't any reason to have such a long lead time on a non customized enclosure. A little inventory management would boost their sales.

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As far as lead time on the cages, I think they are at a point in their business that they probably need to hire extra help or get additional equipment but maybe cant quite manage it yet..I do like the cages though..

Back in the day Vision cages were good, I bought 3 4x26x14 for 150 each brand new from the company.For whatever reason the prices of those have skyrocketed and I dont think they are worth what they are charging now.. So aside from Boaphile(overpriced) or Reptile Basics I dont know where else to buy from.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

There are so many colors of Kydex and I use three different colors of leather and not to mention all the different models of sidearms!!
No matter what I tried to do in the beginning it was either the wrong color combinations or they had model X with a tac light or laser....

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Let me guess - they wanted black, because "black goes with everything". I do leatherworking, started out for medieval re-enactment, still mostly belts, belt pouches, etc. I get sooooooooooooo sick of blackblackblackblack . . . Er, sorry. :D


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Originally Posted by Bmocken

I'm nkt looking for instant gratification just for them to be a bit more upfront as to how long it actually takes. Like I said several times now, it's a good enclosure. Just wish as a consumer I was a little more informed by them as to how long this actually took.

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They are it's posted on their website and Ali will confirm your lead time when you place an order.

Bottom line you do not like their lead time, shop somewhere else there are other people with shorter lead time, or since you seems to be such an expert in caging and business why don't you start your own see and show everyone else are easy it is. :rolleyes:

I want a suit of leather studded armor in pink and yellow with a GIANT daisy on the chestplate!! And is there any way you can have that done and shipped in 3 days?........Sorry couldnt resist :P

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Originally Posted by Prognathodon

I have a long reply, but I'm going to go drop it in the general business talk section, as it wandered off the sealant dry time topic.


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Merged with split:gj:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

They are it's posted on their website and Ali will confirm your lead time when you place an order.

Bottom line you do not like their lead time, shop somewhere else there are other people with shorter lead time, or since you seems to be such an expert in caging and business why don't you start your own see and show everyone else are easy it is. :rolleyes:

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I was gonna say, they have right on their terms of sale page, which is the very first link at the top of the home page:

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Customer will be informed of estimated lead times when placing their order

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Seems pretty upfront to me???

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Originally Posted by Lizardlicks

I was gonna say, they have right on their terms of sale page, which is the very first link at the top of the home page:



Seems pretty upfront to me???

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Yep and it's always been like that I have been doing business with them for a decade now, and lead time has ALWAYS been on their site and always confirmed via email when an order is placed, plus Ali will also answer any question any customer has.

Amazing for some people with such a "bad business plan" to still be in business and be one of the top PVC cage and rack manufacturer. :rolleyes: :rofl:

Custom stuff takes time-I usually have to wait months for good shipping weather for my snakes, planning and ordering ahead doesn't bother me. After the first cage I just bought for future animals and then filled them, reptiles I look more long term, planning to have these cages and the animals for decades so what's a few months? I have boaphiles and just tack another month on whatever Jeff says lol.

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Originally Posted by Miranda2

As far as lead time on the cages, I think they are at a point in their business that they probably need to hire extra help or get additional equipment but maybe cant quite manage it yet..I do like the cages though..

Back in the day Vision cages were good, I bought 3 4x26x14 for 150 each brand new from the company.For whatever reason the prices of those have skyrocketed and I dont think they are worth what they are charging now.. So aside from Boaphile(overpriced) or Reptile Basics I dont know where else to buy from.

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You think they are at a point in their business? I didn't realize you had all the details of how their operations work. Well now that I know you have all the details I'll come to you when I want an update on my order.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

I want a suit of leather studded armor in pink and yellow with a GIANT daisy on the chestplate!! And is there any way you can have that done and shipped in 3 days?........Sorry couldnt resist :P

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You sir have stolen my idea and despite the subtle changes, that was my idea 1st. I wanted pink and black because black goes with everything and I wanted a GIANT sunflower on the chest plate. You thief! I' shall see you on the battlefield of daisies!



I've been in contact with AP to have an economy rack built but adjusted to hold vision tubs. It was so cheap that I had to read the e-mail again because I thought that was per shelf. It would be 10 - 12 weeks for manufacturing which isn't that bad considering it's essentially a customized EP rack. I don't need it rushed to me because everyone is fine with their current setup and based on the interactions I've had with them so far, I will be ordering from them again in the future. I could go with someone local but his prices are through the roof compared to AP. To me, if it's going to take a minimum of 10 weeks due to their current volume, that says they are clearly doing something right if there are that many people ahead of me.

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Originally Posted by Bmocken

Honestly I'm a little annoyed by the whole thing. Animal Plastics should be a little more upfront on how long it's going to be before you can actually put your snake into the cage. 3+ weeks for a quick ship enclosure with zero customization and then I actually get it and put it together to find out I have to wait even longer because sealant needs time to dry properly. I'll be happy with the enclosure once it's usable but that doesn't change my irritation now.

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Why are you irritated exactly? They say quick ship item, but were you expecting it to ship that same day? No. If you were interested in how long then ask. If YOU would of asked they would of told you it's a 3-4 week lead time. That IS quick ship, if you compare it to the other cages which take 9-12 weeks lead time. I'm not trying to be mean or anything but your irritation is your fault for not asking how questions. Sealant always takes time to dry, depends on a variety of things. Next time ask questions. They're always up front and I've been doing business with them for years. They have high lead times because they take care of their customers and their cages are second to none in quality.

My cage shipped out today, almost exactly to the day of the 21 day estimate . They have been very responsive to my inquiries.

So far I have a good impression of them from the ordering process, to the few communications we have had.

I'm ok with the wait, the only thing I think they should tweak is their website. Specifically the pictures of the racks, it's hard to get a good view on some. I almost ordered the wrong one because the tab for the 4/8 Rack is by a picture of the 6/12.

But, they have a small company feel , and I get the impression so far that customer satisfaction is important to them...which is refreshing . I'll know more on Friday, but if it's like I expect I'll be ordering a 2nd one before I actually need it.

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Originally Posted by Mr.Snake

My cage shipped out today, almost exactly to the day of the 21 day estimate . They have been very responsive to my inquiries.

So far I have a good impression of them from the ordering process, to the few communications we have had.

I'm ok with the wait, the only thing I think they should tweak is their website. Specifically the pictures of the racks, it's hard to get a good view on some. I almost ordered the wrong one because the tab for the 4/8 Rack is by a picture of the 6/12.

But, they have a small company feel , and I get the impression so far that customer satisfaction is important to them...which is refreshing . I'll know more on Friday, but if it's like I expect I'll be ordering a 2nd one before I actually need it.

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My rack arrived and is now assembled. I give it a 5 out of 5 stars so far. Very satisfied. I'll be placing another order in a couple weeks to get another rack on the way