Opinion: Do you find breeding spiders unethical?

It's a beautiful morph, but there's always the problem with the spider wobble. Curious about both sides of the debate and want to know what you guys think. Thanks!

I, well my daughter, has spider in her breeding plans. Yeah, they wobble, some worse than others, but my daughter actually likes how they wobble. Her biggest girl, just weighed in at 1921 grams will hold on tight with her head against her and she won't wobble then. As soon as her head is off she will, kinda interesting to watch. I like them with all their issues.

Recently there was a thread here that had a somewhat in-depth discussion about this topic.
It's a very interesting read and it might answer some of the questions you may have regarding the ethical issues, snake quality of life, breeding out the issue, among many other topics.

"Why the heck do people keep breeding spider morphs?"

I think it gives them character, I only have one carrying spider (killerblast) and he's the snake that I'll let friends afraid of snakes hold, he's an ambassador of sorts, 100% sweetie and my wife things his wob is pretty cute. Not to mention he's among the most aggressive eaters I've ever seen. I feed him in blue even (ft)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dmt_jovi

Recently there was a thread here that had a somewhat in-depth discussion about this topic.
It's a very interesting read and it might answer some of the questions you may have regarding the ethical issues, snake quality of life, breeding out the issue, among many other topics.

"Why the heck do people keep breeding spider morphs?"

---

Best to just look through that thread...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dmt_jovi

Recently there was a thread here that had a somewhat in-depth discussion about this topic.
It's a very interesting read and it might answer some of the questions you may have regarding the ethical issues, snake quality of life, breeding out the issue, among many other topics.


"Why the heck do people keep breeding spider morphs?"

---

Thank you for this useful thread!

I find breeding bulldogs unethical. Their lack of genetic diversity and myriad of health problems affecting their quality of life makes me shake my head.

A wobbly snake? Not so much. From what I've learned from people that keep them, even pretty wobbly spider morphs are generally chunky and healthy and good eaters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfchan

I find breeding bulldogs unethical. Their lack of genetic diversity and myriad of health problems affecting their quality of life makes me shake my head.

A wobbly snake? Not so much. From what I've learned from people that keep them, even pretty wobbly spider morphs are generally chunky and healthy and good eaters.

---

Right? If we want to rant over health issues in artificial breeding of some animal, we should be looking at pugs and certain lines of English and French Bulldogs, or even King Charles Spaniels (they may not look it, but this breed is just loaded with various health issues... even very reputable breeder dogs). English and french bulldogs literally can't even breathe properly if exercised more intensely. Many require eyedrops their entire lives, due to their bulging eyes causing issues down the line, starting from their puppy year. In some dogs, their flat face wrinkles actually scratch their eyeballs throughout their lives. Same issue goes for many pekingese.

There's no reason not to discuss spider morphs either, because discussion and opinions are good, but I just see it as such a non-issue in comparison. If we are to convince everyone to stop breeding spider morphs, we need to get on that english and french bulldog deal too! LOL

In m opinion it's completely unethical to breed a morph you KNOW will have neurological issues, whether those be slight or severe by random chance. The animals life quality should be put over the want to breed a certain morph, for whatever reason that may be.

Reasoning such as "it's pretty", "it sells", "feeds well (provided the wobble allows them to feed at all)" etc are not valid enough to me, and the same counts not only for spiders but every morph which has health issues.

Apparently an unpopular opinion around here, but I strongly don't support it

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morjean

The animals life quality should be put over the want to breed a certain morph, for whatever reason that may be.

---

Most of us don't see the animals quality of life being effected.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morjean

Reasoning such as "it's pretty", "it sells", "feeds well (provided the wobble allows them to feed at all)" etc are not valid enough to me, and the same counts not only for spiders but every morph which has health issues.

---

Given how many people in the other thread thought culling spiders is something people do, I have to say something here.

Even if I was to blindly believe the cases of non eating spiders, that accounts for a small fraction of a percentage. I bet significantly more animals pass due to keeper inexperience than anything to do with near mythical non eating spiders.

The only first hand account of a non eating spider I could find was from an inexperienced breeder. Some how breeders can produce thousands of spiders without any eating issues but this guy's first clutch is the one that has the mythical non eater? You can guess what I think is to blame.

Just something to think about when you spread rumors like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morjean

Reasoning such as "it's pretty", "it sells", "feeds well (provided the wobble allows them to feed at all)" etc are not valid enough to me, and the same counts not only for spiders but every morph which has health issues.

Apparently an unpopular opinion around here, but I strongly don't support it

---

Its not that its an unpopular opinion but more a lack of knowledge and research.
I often find it entertaining in this hobby that much of these started as "one time" or "a friend of mine"....:rofl::rofl:

I wouldn't say unethical since other than making them a bit wobbly it doesn't affect them at all but I do find it a bit immoral to intentionally breed for something you know will have issues. That said, I don't mind other people breeding them and I wouldn't mind owning one but I would feel too guilty to ever breed them myself

I see the argument being the snake wobbles. Ok I get that. IMO they don't seem to be in any pain, eat fine, and live well in our enclosures. Now, would they survive in the wild? My answer is yes many would or the gene wouldn't even exist. All of these genes originated from wild ball pythons at some point. I would even argue they would survive better than a lot of other genes that don't have the wobble. Just my opinion. These are bred as pets, not as wild animals. If we were breeding to reintroduce into the wild I would be against it, as their survival rate might be lower, but as pets they are beautiful animals. Just my opinions.

Interesting discussion! Most of my ball pythons have the spider gene in them, and I don't really notice much of a head wobble on hardly any of them at all. It's a very popular gene, I just looked on Morphmarket and they have sold + for sale a total of 2,248 snakes with the spider gene.

I think it really enhances the genetic study of these snakes. There are other genes that make snakes wobbly like the Champagne gene, or genes that produce mainly males or females like the Banana / Coral Glow gene. There are other combos that make snakes particularly aggressive, I'm pretty sure a spider + pastel seems to enhance the aggressiveness, maybe that's why they call them 'bumble bees' LOL. And the super cinnamons are also reported to be very aggressive by some of the pro breeders. I find the whole thing very fascinating. And we are now in a time where there are so many new gene combos that almost every week I see a snake that's a 'worlds first' combo of certain genes. And some of the paint jobs really surprise me, like the Mojave + GHI, a combo that looks completely different than both of the parents. And the allelic combos from two different co-dominant genes that act as a super producing no normals, now that blows me away!

I find it a very interesting study in genetics, especially since we started talking about different color patterns of the same species and found out how it really affects the animal on so many different levels.

Now if you want to talk about unethical, how about a super wobbly aggressive snake like a super cinnamon spider champagne! LOL

I still can't believe this is a topic that needs to be discussed. I always get so much flack for defending the spider and I wish people would look at it from an objective standpoint. If the wobble was a big deal, the morph would not be as wide spread as it is today. The whole, "breeders are just greedy", or whatever against argument against breeders for breeding spiders is just dumb in my opinion as well. Sure some breeders are greedy but if you're against breeders, don't own the animal. Simple as that. Unless you want to go capture one in its natural habitat and bring it over, you can't complain about breeders. (Off-topic but I digress)

As for the wobble, it's just as OWAL said earlier. Spiders with even severe wobbles will eat. You can find videos of them on youtube. Sure they need to be checked on and sure it takes them a little longer, but the animal does fine. A point I like to make is that the wobblers were all found in the wild and the wild is the most unforgiving environment ever. If a wobbler can survive in the wild, there shouldn't even be a debate as to whether or not the wobble causes a big enough problem for the animal. A ball python does not eat when something is wrong. If the wobble was a hindrance, the snake would have just starved to death to begin with. I have wobblers with several degrees of them and they all eat fine, furiously even. Im actually antsy to feed one of them because super excited and nearly explodes the rat with his strikes.

I see it as unethical as breeding thuroughbred horses

Again :rolleyes:

Funny thing is that people finding it unethical always compare apples to oranges comparing mammals and reptiles, and they usually have little to no experience with the morph itself, whether it's owning it or even producing them.

It's amazing how people who have owned one BP for less than 6 months are quick to make judgement based on their......based on what exactly, hearsay, reading definitely not hand on experience.

Quote:

---

The animals life quality should be put over the want to breed a certain morph, for whatever reason that may be.

---

It always is when you breed animals, do you breed snakes?

What makes you think that spider do not have the same quality of life than a butter, pinstripe or normal, what is it that those other mutations do that spider don't?

Normal eat, pee, poop, shed, move around, breed.

Spider eat, pee, poop, shed, move around, breed.

Every mutation in essence is an abnormality should we stop breeding them ll together? (Some old school people actually think so)

There is a big difference between a snake trembling a little when excited and one that has a facial deformity so severe that it will not be able to eat on it's own, or so severely kinked that will not be able to move as a snake should.

There is no one that thinks about quality of life more than a breeder and because of that breeders make the hard decision when they breed regardless of the paint job.

Should we stop breeding to prevent any type of issue, because sooner or later if you breed you will produce an animal with issues?

Here's a question for the people who are morally opposed to breeding spiders: Have you ever owned one? It seems that most people with objections have not.

I'll admit that I was a bit concerned about the infamous "wobble" before I got a spider, but the reputation makes the wobble sound a whole lot worse than it actually is. It isn't something that negatively impacts the health of the animal. When I first got Vriska (my spider) I kept an eye on her because I wasn't sure what to expect. What I found was that she eats better than all my other snakes, thrived in spite of the stress of changing location, and that she's a friendly, healthy snake that makes a great pet. She's docile enough that I wouldn't even bat an eyelash at letting my kids hold her. I can't say that about some of my other snakes.

If we're going to stop breeding spiders because of the wobble then are we going to stop breeding super cinnamons because they're likely to strike? How about we also stop breeding leucistics because they couldn't possibly survive in the wild with a coat that color? I mean, as long as we're picking out completely arbitrary reasons to stop breeding snakes...

If you're really worried about any animal being overbred for profit, then you should be worried about the entire pet trade. Surplus cats and dogs are a huge problem and many breeds come with health issues that hurt the animal. I can't think of any ball python morph that has as many issues as a pugnose dog or persian cat and I've never heard of ball pythons becoming an invasive species or a public nuisance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by the_rotten1

I'll admit that I was a bit concerned about the infamous "wobble" before I got a spider, but the reputation makes the wobble sound a whole lot worse than it actually is. It isn't something that negatively impacts the health of the animal. When I first got Vriska (my spider) I kept an eye on her because I wasn't sure what to expect. What I found was that she eats better than all my other snakes, thrived in spite of the stress of changing location, and that she's a friendly, healthy snake that makes a great pet. She's docile enough that I wouldn't even bat an eyelash at letting my kids hold her. I can't say that about some of my other snakes.

---

Thanks for this input. I also wanted to comment that Vriska is a very cool and unique name!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by the_rotten1

Here's a question for the people who are morally opposed to breeding spiders: Have you ever owned one? It seems that most people with objections have not.

I'll admit that I was a bit concerned about the infamous "wobble" before I got a spider, but the reputation makes the wobble sound a whole lot worse than it actually is. It isn't something that negatively impacts the health of the animal. When I first got Vriska (my spider) I kept an eye on her because I wasn't sure what to expect. What I found was that she eats better than all my other snakes, thrived in spite of the stress of changing location, and that she's a friendly, healthy snake that makes a great pet. She's docile enough that I wouldn't even bat an eyelash at letting my kids hold her. I can't say that about some of my other snakes.

If we're going to stop breeding spiders because of the wobble then are we going to stop breeding super cinnamons because they're likely to strike? How about we also stop breeding leucistics because they couldn't possibly survive in the wild with a coat that color? I mean, as long as we're picking out completely arbitrary reasons to stop breeding snakes...

If you're really worried about any animal being overbred for profit, then you should be worried about the entire pet trade. Surplus cats and dogs are a huge problem and many breeds come with health issues that hurt the animal. I can't think of any ball python morph that has as many issues as a pugnose dog or persian cat and I've never heard of ball pythons becoming an invasive species or a public nuisance.

---

wait one minute here. My wife would beg to differ, she sees all these balls my kids have as a very invasive species in our home. Actually, she also considers them a public nuisance. Lol. She hates snakes, but boy is she good to my girls and I for letting them live in our house. Just trying to get a nice display snake for the bedroom and she isn't going for that.

I can't believe there's yet ANOTHER thread for the same people to repeat the same arguments all over again. Do a search on this site and you'll find a dozen threads easily and they all end up saying the same things.

Some people don't like the wobble and would never breed and some of those even try to wail that anyone who differs in opinion is cruel/greedy/immoral/etc.

Some people don't mind the wobble and own and/or breed with zero problems.

If you don't like spiders, don't own a spider. Making up junk about spiders not being able to survive, being in pain or distress and etc when you don't even OWN a spider is in itself immoral.

Albinos would die in the wild. In fact, most of our snakes would die in the wild even if they were normals because most babies in most species do not survive to adulthood. A spider was first discovered as a wild morph so it obviously did survive despite everyone's concerns.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I can't believe there's yet ANOTHER thread for the same people to repeat the same arguments all over again. Do a search on this site and you'll find a dozen threads easily and they all end up saying the same things.

---

My apologies, I'm a noob to this site and the reptile community. Someone linked me to a useful thread. I wasn't trying to be redundant, just genuinely wanted to know and didn't know this was already a thoroughly discussed topic :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maymay

Thanks for this input. I also wanted to comment that Vriska is a very cool and unique name!!

---

You probably wouldn't say that if you knew what it was from. :snake:

But thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bcycling

wait one minute here. My wife would beg to differ, she sees all these balls my kids have as a very invasive species in our home. Actually, she also considers them a public nuisance. Lol. She hates snakes, but boy is she good to my girls and I for letting them live in our house. Just trying to get a nice display snake for the bedroom and she isn't going for that.

---

To each their own. It's good that she's letting you guys keep them though. My Dad hated rats, so we could never have them as pets. Now I have six of them.

In my opinion, I wouldn't mind people producing it, but I hate it when it goes into high end morphs. I personally dont like the head wobble, I wouldn't breed them at all. I don't want to bring lives into this world with a deformity :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Its not that its an unpopular opinion but more a lack of knowledge and research.
I often find it entertaining in this hobby that much of these started as "one time" or "a friend of mine"....:rofl::rofl:

---

A lack of research? For some it is as simple as not breeding animals that have a known neurological disorder. It is no doubt an unpopular opinion and anyone who expresses it is generally accused of being uneducated. As long as we are oversimplifying I think most bulldog breeders would argue they eat, sleep and poop like any other dog. I have not ever owned a spider, and will not as I do not believe in breeding animals with neurological issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maymay

Thank you for this useful thread!

---

No problem ;) Although I thought with me linking to that thread the discussion would be very minimal, guess I was wrong!


Now since this discussion seems to carry on, let's do some thinking regarding the wobble issue.

As far as we know, even in the scientific community, the wobble does not affect the snake's life or health in any major way (except maybe some truly extreme examples, but that happens with any condition you can think of).
The snake will still eat, pee, poop, shed, breed, slither arround, and do any other thing a "normal" snake can do. They don't show any inherent sign of stress or health issue directly related to the wobble. The only thing that makes them any different from a "normal" snake is they wobble a little here and there (mostly when they get excited like when it's feeding time)

Now that we have this foundation of how the wobble affects the snake's life we can do something people love to do: anthropomorphize! (which in itself isn't bad, it helps us interpret and understand the world arround us, we just have to know when to draw the line based on scientific evidences)

Now what can make us humans look "weird" like a snake with the wobble and, like the wobble, will not affect our life in any major way?
I thought of someone with a limp.
People who have a limp can still live a very healthy and fullfilling life, they can do whatever a normal person can do, some even become runners or gymnasts.


Now the big question comes:
Would you oppose someone with a limp having children?


Yes you can argue that we are the ones reproducing the snakes and it's not their complete choice, however that is somewhat incorrect. We don't inseminate the females or force the intercourse, we just create the best environment for them to reproduce, if the snakes don't want to lock with one another they won't.



Like some people said before me, when I started to get into this hobby/culture, the wobble issue made me ask all kinds of questions and I did my research to get the answers to those questions, after being well informed about the issue I formed my opinion on the topic which is that the "wobble issue" is actually a micro-issue instead of the major-how-can-people-do-this-to-the-snakes-issue.

So I get that people have questions, which is great because it means people want to learn more, the only thing I ask is for people to do their research before stating something as a fact online or in real life, because when we state something that is not correct as a fact we are spreading misinformation, which in the long run only holds back our hobby/culture (example: think about how people still think they have to move their snake to feed him or how every year or so the story about the snake sizing up their owner to eat him still pops up somewhere and people still take it as a fact).

Jovi, unless you have proof the scientific community has said the wobble does not affect the animals life, you are spreading the same misinformation you are so against. I would honestly be surprised if any scientific study had been done on the issue at all.

I don't actually have an opinion on this issue but this paper(study?) is the one I keep seeing cited in arguments against spider.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by the_rotten1

You probably wouldn't say that if you knew what it was from. :snake:

---

You hamsteak trash xD Vriskat otp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by salt

I don't actually have an opinion on this issue but this paper(study?) is the one I keep seeing cited in arguments against spider.

---

I've read this paper and the conclusion was inconclusive saying that it needed more reasearch and a few of their key points are bases off the thought of, "how would I feel if I where this snake" and anthropomorphizing.
As for the scientific proof needed to prove that it doesnmt affect the animal's life, look around you. The spider is and always has been thriving the same way all other ball pythons do in captivity. They do all the things any other ball python does. Ball pythons are relatively simple creatures who just want to feel safe enough to eat, shed, etc. that's all they want. They don't need anything else. They don't need a branch to climb to "stimulation." They just want to hide and be left alone.

I personally find it unethical, and won't buy from a breeder who breeds spiders at all. Not that I plan on ever owning another ball python any time soon. I don't care if it eats, I don't care if it breeds, I don't care how big and strong it gets. Whether or not the wobble affects their health or longevity, I can only imagine the wobble is extremely disorienting. From my understanding, they wobble because their internal balance is off and they feel they're not correctly oriented. Not exactly something I personally consider all that minor, however little it affects the snake's behavior. I have also had several owners tell me their spiders required enclosures with blocked off sides, additional cover, and little to no handling to keep the wobbling to a minimum, as the wobbling seems to heighten during times of stress. I've seen one or two cases where the wobble was so severe the snake couldn't eat. If this can happen, I don't care if it happens often I don't think it should be bred for because the chance to breed individuals who may not thrive, however little that chance is, still exists. Those few cases don't make up much of the spider population, but for me personally I don't really like those odds considering the gene is 100% linked to the pattern and it only varies by degree. It would be a different story if the wobble was able to be separated from the spider gene, but from current research that seems impossible. I'm not going to force anyone else to stop breeding them, but I'm certainly not going to support them with my business.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dmt_jovi

Now the big question comes:
Would you oppose someone with a limp having children?

---

Look at the world around you...... People will debate the ethics of breeding animals but don't care about the risks they take on their own. :rofl::rofl::rofl:
Its a whole different and deeper debate but the same theories.
Only thing is with a Spider morph you have an idea of what to expect.....the other is like Russian Roulette.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Jovi, unless you have proof the scientific community has said the wobble does not affect the animals life, you are spreading the same misinformation you are so against. I would honestly be surprised if any scientific study had been done on the issue at all.

---

From the paper posted by Salt:

"Of the respondents that felt the welfare impact was minimal, rationales were cited such as, “Although there are cognitive defects that appear to be present [these] don’t seem to adversely affect quality of life too severely,” and, “There seems to only rarely be a severe welfare issue with the wobble condition, with the majority leading a largely ‘normal’ life."

Which raises the question: What is exactly a ball python's "normal" life, according to the author? Because what may be considered "normal" by the author might be an anthropomorphized version of a ball python's lifestyle. This set of elements that constitute a normal life is one of the most important basis for a fair and true discussion about this topic, because unless we can agree on what those elements are, we are destined to simply throw our own personal opinion back and forth.



"Clinical signs of the wobble condition have been shown to include head and neck tremors, torticollis, incoordination, disequilibrium and inhibited righting reflex, which are indicative of a central nervous system disorder (Bennett and Mehler 2005). Symptoms may only appear, or be exaggerated, during periods of arousal, such as when feeding. While prevalence of the condition among Spider morphs remains unclear, with many experts stating that all are affected to some degree, there is consensus that a minority of individuals are severely impacted in their ability to perform their full repertoire of species-appropriate behaviours, relative to wild-type captive pythons."

This once again begs the question: What exactly does the author consider "species-appropriate behaviours"?



Now, let me clarify something. I'm not saying you can't have an opinion on the topic or that you can't simply disagree or not approve this behavior (breeding spiders), you absolutely can and have the right to do so. However when the topic goes from "I don't agree with X" to "People should not be abble to do X" that's when the problems start rising because you are saying your opinion is more valid than anyone who differs from you and it is the only correct one. When someone does that I think it's only fair to ask them to justify, using facts instead of personal beliefs, why their opinion is the correct one.


P.S.: I'm sorry if my english is somewhat "broken", it is not my native language and it is kind of late where I am, so I'm sorry for any mistakes I might've done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Look at the world around you...... People will debate the ethics of breeding animals but don't care about the risks they take on their own. :rofl::rofl::rofl:
Its a whole different and deeper debate but the same theories.
Only thing is with a Spider morph you have an idea of what to expect.....the other is like Russian Roulette.

---

That was kind of a rhetoric question from my perspective, but I get what you're saying ;)

Besides it just shows how anthropomorphizing can sometimes not be the correct approach to some topics.