Why the heck do people keep breeding spider morphs?

Considering that most people do some research if they're interested in buying a morph or breeding- what's with all the spider BPs for sale? Is it just that not everyone knows their potential genetic defect, or am I being too cautious? I saw a beautiful bee at my local reptile store but if I recall correctly, they have spider in them. It's just weird to me that breeders continue to produce them.

I suppose people don't care if the animal is defective, or won't know for sure, so they continue to breed out of greed/ignorance/etc. Different people have different preferences I suppose.

The majority's reason being that the genetic defect associated with spiders doesn't interfere with their ability to eat and thrive as a normal snake, at least in a captive environment as pets. It just gives them a lopsided motion when they're moving about or they rest in funny positions.

Because we like the morph. I'll breed my bumblebee ball when she gets up to size. They're pretty animals and it doesnt stop them from eating and thriving. I've only noticed mine exhibitng weird behavior once so far and it's when she was deep in shed. She eats and everything just fine and I love it.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...6106e6fdc1.jpg

I mean, I agree that I wouldn't want to work with Spiders, or trying to make a super hidden gene Woma for that matter, but a lot of people don't care. The genetic defects aren't severe enough to make people not work with them at all, and thus they keep being bred for. Perhaps in time the genetic defects will be worked out through selective breeding.

There's a demand for spider morphs so breeders provide the supply.


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Ive got an albino spider, bumblebee, spider het ghost orange ghost, and unknown spider morph. Personal preference but i like the gene.

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Originally Posted by m1lkhoney

Considering that most people do some research if they're interested in buying a morph or breeding- what's with all the spider BPs for sale? Is it just that not everyone knows their potential genetic defect, or am I being too cautious? I saw a beautiful bee at my local reptile store but if I recall correctly, they have spider in them. It's just weird to me that breeders continue to produce them.

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How many spiders have you owned or produced that make you think their quality of life is any different than any other mutations? Sure there are a few extreme cases but guess what Champagne and woman also display the same issues if you want to call it an issue, do we need to stop breeding those too?

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Originally Posted by Cin

I suppose people don't care if the animal is defective, or won't know for sure, so they continue to breed out of greed/ignorance/etc. Different people have different preferences I suppose.

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Yep the greed of producing a $45/$75 animal that must be it......ignorance you said. :rolleyes:

Bottom line Spider are great looking and make great looking great looking combos and their "issue" is not affecting their quality of life, at least not in the vast majority of cases.

When breeding you thrive to produce animals that will have a good quality of life and spiders in that regard have the same quality of life than any other animals, also as a breeder if you are to produce something that did not have a shot at a good quality of life you would do what you have to whether it's a spider a cinny or a normal, culling is part of breeding interestingly enough I can tell you that I have never culled a spider but I have other animals.

Ultimately people breed what they want to breed and if it's not YOUR thing (since it cannot be bred out) it's ok no one is forcing you to buy or breed spiders, however who are YOU for knocking down people who do even though you have ZERO experience with the mutation (owning or breeding)?

BTW no I don't breed Spiders (but O have produce my fair share of then) and no I did not stop because of "issues" just because I have a different focus.

I agree with Deborah. If you have never owned the spider gene why are you knocking it? I own a beautiful BP that has the spider gene and the ONLY time it is noticeable is every once in a while when she eats (i.e. She has ate 3 times for me the first time and the last time nothing was off the second time she was really excited and her head wobbled a little when she struck so she grabbed the tail instead of the body but she still constricted and ate fine). I plan to breed her once she gets old enough and that's not greed or ignorance I think she is gorgeous and would produce some amazing babies. I have also owned bumblebees and spiders and they didn't have a wobble that affected them at all.

My vanilla butter banana spider:

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...sfde25k2l.jpeg

I'm not knocking it; I think they're beautiful. I didn't mean to offend. I've just heard a lot of arguments against breeding spiders and was looking for input. I'm sorry if that came across wrong. In fact, I was hoping to reach someone who DOES breed them because I'm not being snide; i would like a different perspective.

Deborah, I've learned a lot from reading your posts and I always appreciate your input but I think maybe you interpreted my question as snide. I'm here to learn, so I ask questions.

Honestly, now I am pretty bummed and wish I hadn't asked. :/

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Originally Posted by m1lkhoney

Honestly, now I am pretty bummed and wish I hadn't asked. :/

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It's fine, try not to worry about it too much. c: The thing majority of people who are against spiders (Tumblr/Reptiblr) is that they don't understand that the original spider was doing well in the wild on its own. Wobble and all. In captivity, the wobble very rarely detracts from the quality of life of the snake. If the wobble was causing a problem, the spider wouldn't have been as wide spread as it is right now. This applies to anything with a wobble really.

I personally have spider in my stock mainly because I think they're both gorgeous as a base morph and I still feel like the morph still has potential both in the breeder side of things and the pet side of things. The wobble is something you should disclose to people looking to buy from you, of course, but it really will never cause a problem.

That's just my two cents anyway.

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Originally Posted by m1lkhoney

In fact, I was hoping to reach someone who DOES breed them because I'm not being snide; i would like a different perspective.

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Here's an article written on this exact topic by a guy who's bred a spider morph or two ;) : https://jkrballstreetjournal.com/201...spiders-silly/

Thanks guys! This originally came up when I posted a spinner blast on my facebook and called it my dream snake (they're so pretty!)... and then proceeded to get several messages saying I shouldn't because, well, spider genetics. So this actually makes me happy because if it is not as daunting as I've been told, that means I can consider a spinner blast, yes?

Great article, Eric, thanks. :)

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Originally Posted by m1lkhoney

Great article, Eric, thanks. :)

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You're welcome. I always love sharing a good read.

Also, I do have a fair number of Spider morphs in my own collection and am expecting eggs from two of them in the next month or so. They do have their quirks, but not once have I been concerned for their health/safety because of them.

If you want a spinner blast, get one. There isn't a reason to not own them, there is only a reason to weigh the decision to breed slightly more than is normal for breeding, as spiders may be harder to get rid of than other ball pythons.

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Originally Posted by m1lkhoney

Thanks guys! This originally came up when I posted a spinner blast on my facebook and called it my dream snake (they're so pretty!)... and then proceeded to get several messages saying I shouldn't because, well, spider genetics. So this actually makes me happy because if it is not as daunting as I've been told, that means I can consider a spinner blast, yes?

Great article, Eric, thanks. :)

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Trust me, get any spider, champagne, woma, etc. morph you want. The snakes are fine and will be fine. People who complain about the spider have no idea what they are talking about (99% of the time anyway) and form their opinions on what they have heard/seen on youtube. A spinner blast is a beautiful looking animal and I can't wait to have a chance of making some along with some hypo versions this coming December. c:

The only problem with Spider is the only ones you hear about are the really bad ones. I would be willing to be they make up a very small % of the population of spiders. Our Spider has no noticeable wobble at all. Yes she has missed a strike or two but so have all of our other snakes.

Great article. I've read it before. JK is a really great guy with great insight on all things BP. I've never bought from him (I'm in Canada and it's more complicated), but he answered a question when I emailed him and was very nice to talk to. I'd recommend him any day. His animals are beautiful.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Here's an article written on this exact topic by a guy who's bred a spider morph or two ;) : https://jkrballstreetjournal.com/201...spiders-silly/

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I hope you make a post about them as I'm always interested in reading about Spiders :) . I have 3 that I absolutely love and hope to breed at some point. All of mine are different, but I really like the quirks. One of them actually acts completely "normal"... enough so that I'm wondering if he really is a Spider ;) .

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

You're welcome. I always love sharing a good read.

Also, I do have a fair number of Spider morphs in my own collection and am expecting eggs from two of them in the next month or so. They do have their quirks, but not once have I been concerned for their health/safety because of them.

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One of mine doesn't strike sometimes... she just goes up and starts eating the F/T rat :) . I would hate to have a Spider that was really bad off, but I agree and think that it's likely a very small percentage of them that are like that. They can be "special", but I haven't had any terrible experience with my three.

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Originally Posted by enginee837

The only problem with Spider is the only ones you hear about are the really bad ones. I would be willing to be they make up a very small % of the population of spiders. Our Spider has no noticeable wobble at all. Yes she has missed a strike or two but so have all of our other snakes.

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I would go for it if I were you. My oldest daughter loves Spinner Blasts and wants to breed for one with her big Pinstripe female. I find some of the most interesting BPs are the ones that don't quite fit the "mold". We have several Champagnes that have a severe attitude. My Sterling Champagne male always greets me with a deep distrusting HISS when I check on him. It just makes me smile as he doesn't usually follow up with much after that. His son is a jerk and will always strike at me (and only me). It's pretty funny :) .

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Originally Posted by m1lkhoney

Thanks guys! This originally came up when I posted a spinner blast on my facebook and called it my dream snake (they're so pretty!)... and then proceeded to get several messages saying I shouldn't because, well, spider genetics. So this actually makes me happy because if it is not as daunting as I've been told, that means I can consider a spinner blast, yes?

Great article, Eric, thanks. :)

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IMO, it's not so much accepting the good with the bad when dealing with Spiders. It's more dealing with the good and the odd. I currently have 4 snakes with the Spider gene, and each displays the wobble differently. While none are the classic train wreck, they do vary from a very subtle shake when feeding (what I call the meat shakes), to a semi-controlled loop when looking up. It's not really a detriment though. This girl for example is the worst out of all of them.

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps0aebwypw.jpg

...But as the argument goes, they don't get to be 2100g plus if they don't thrive. She's a gorgeous, big healthy girl and a total sweetheart. Sure, Spiders and they're variants are not for everyone and it may take some getting used to, but there's no reason not to have them around. It'd be a real shame IMO if people stopped breeding them and they disappeared from collections and the market in general. They really do bring something special to the Ball Python world.

Dave

It comes down to where you want to draw the line. Every single morph can be defined as a defect. I mean why would you breed albinos? They have defective melanin production. Ball pythons could all be defective compared to an Angolan python, so why breed ball pythons at all? It is all opinion based.

Personally for me, I draw the line at pain/distress. If the animal can thrive comfortably, I don't see the issue. If there was a similar morph that didn't have issues, I'm sure it would take the hobby by storm. However that isn't the case and that spider pattern is a very desirable trait.

I love the way the spider gene mixes in with the pied gene. Here's my three spider mixes, there's no doubt they make some of the most beautiful morphs. I do notice a head wobble in my spider pied mixes, but they still eat just great.

Here's my pastel spider pied:

https://morphmarket-media.s3.amazona...d4a6a4939f.jpg

And here's my spider pied 'white wedding':

https://morphmarket-media.s3.amazona...4495ab8af3.jpg

And here's my pastel spider:

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file.../bumblebee.jpg

Many people don't understand or research the genes that wobble.
They are one of the most beautiful base morphs that also happens to mix great with almost everything you could pair it to.
I honestly cannot think of an ugly spider combo but I have not seen any 4 plus genes either.

The same question could go for people........

Human beings are dumb animals and sex is one of the fundamental desires of many animals. That's why people keep reproducing without regards to appropriate breeding. And trust me, before my relationship many people thought I was terrible because I actually care about the genetics of my offspring and not propogating negative traits. For some reason to a lot of people that means you're shallow. But when you'll comfortably wait 3 years between partners because you have certain criteria and don't make other people feel lesser during that time when you turn them down, it isn't really in the same category as being shallow.

Same with snakes. I know the snakes I will be breeding are the ones with the best traits in my mind, and not ones which lack solid traits. Eugenics is pretty common when we work with animals.

But, at the end of it all, the traits we find enjoyable will continue to be bred for.

Again, to the OP: Go get the snake you want, the morph isn't really expensive, and there are definitely some out there looking for homes.

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

I love the way the spider gene mixes in with the pied gene. Here's my three spider mixes, there's no doubt they make some of the most beautiful morphs. I do notice a head wobble in my spider pied mixes, but they still eat just great.

Here's my pastel spider pied:

https://morphmarket-media.s3.amazona...d4a6a4939f.jpg

And here's my spider pied 'white wedding':

https://morphmarket-media.s3.amazona...4495ab8af3.jpg

And here's my pastel spider:

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file.../bumblebee.jpg

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Your bumblebee is so high yellow! I love it. Has it started to wash out at all or is it stil young? Such a looker

Okay random question after reading this thread. Do all spiders have the wobble? Would it be possible to breed it out?

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Originally Posted by Ashley96

Okay random question after reading this thread. Do all spiders have the wobble? Would it be possible to breed it out?

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1-Yes ALL do wobble, the question is to what extent?
2-Havent yet..

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Originally Posted by Ashley96

Okay random question after reading this thread. Do all spiders have the wobble? Would it be possible to breed it out?

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Most exhibit the trait minorly (intermittent food shakes, rare odd behavior). A few have it really bad (food shakes every time, frequent odd behavior such as turning when trying to go straight). And some almost never show signs in their life of it.

Whether it can be bred out is entirely dependent on the source of the wobble.

Wobble is related to the line, but separate genetically: This essentially means that the wobble behavior is a separate gene that is related to the spider gene. If this were the case it would likely have already been bred out as in all likelihood half of spiders bred to other morphs would have the wobble.

Wobble is closely related but still separate: This requires gene crossover for it to be bred out. Snakes which rarely exhibit this behavior would likely not pass on the wobble, or the offspring would be the same (rarely exhibiting it). This is possible, but pretty unlikely as I recall people with spiders which don't/rarely exhibit the gene having offspring which do.

Wobble is due to the gene: This is regrettably likely. The way dna works is it codes for your body to produce protiens which then affect the body. That is how the color and pattern morphs work, they alter protien structures or amounts and that causes an effect in the creature. Now when one of those protiens also affects the nervous system or musculature in the animal, you end up with problems, such as wobble. Again, this is most likely the case with how thibgs have worked. It's possible that the range of wobble could be accounted for by the rest of the snakes genetics, or its own compensation for its disorder.

If someone were to try breeding out the trait the best way to go about it would be to select out the spiders with more wobble. This could be culling (which is questionable in practice to the point of being unethical), stopping them from breeding, or just not using them yourself. Ultimately if it were possible to breed it out, you'd have spiders which don't exhibit the trait, and a line of wobble-less spiders.

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Originally Posted by Ashley96

Okay random question after reading this thread. Do all spiders have the wobble? Would it be possible to breed it out?

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1/Yes, to a degree from mild to severe, it can change over time, it can be affected by stress, excitement, temperatures etc. A mild (barely noticeable wobbler can produce a train wreck and vice versa.


2/ No if it was a possibility since Spider have been around since 1999 and are very prevalent in this industry it would have been done already by now, stacking the gene does not change anything either.

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Originally Posted by Ashley96

Okay random question after reading this thread. Do all spiders have the wobble? Would it be possible to breed it out?

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The next time I feed our female spider I will video it and post. We knew nothing of wobble until someone told us we have a spider and "it has to wobble". If you did not see the pattern on her you would swear she is not a spider as there is not visible wobble at all. She has been hand fed and as of late we let her hunt on her own which she is quite effective at. I wold take a snake like her over one that has not inherent genetic defects but is a problem feeder any day of the week. With all of this said and based on my limited personal experience I would answer you question like this.

1) Wobble is part of the gene. If they have spider they have wobble. You have to look at the gene as more than just a change in pattern as it clearly changes something on a neurological level. With that said, just as no 2 spider patterns are alike I would assume no 2 wobbles are the same either. All have wobble but not all wobble is the same or to the same degree.

2) I do not think it can be bred out through selective breeding as I have heard snakes with little to no wobble have produced very bad cases and snakes with moderate wobble have produced snakes with not visible wobble at all. This does not mean it is impossible, just have not seen any evidence that would correlate degree of wobble to genetic paring. Maybe it can be affected through incubation temps? Who knows..

My friend has a bumblebee with the worst wobble I have ever seen. She turns completely upside down when going to strike at her food then proceeds to eat it while upside down. And when she is in shed her head has been known to do loopy loops. With this being said the person has decided never to breed her because she doesn't want to take the chance that it breeds into the babies.

If you are looking into getting a spider morph just make sure you ask the breeder if they know how bad the wobble is and they should know. However just be aware that when you bring the bp home that the wobble might be more prevalent at first because of stress from the new environment. My Enchantress (the vanilla butter banana spider) my friend who bred her didn't really notice a wobble but once I brought her home the first night she did a loopy loop but since then she's been fine. She's only wobbled the once during feeding and missed and ended up grabbing the tail.

Enchantress is my sweetest bp and I love how the spiders morphs look. If you want one just go for it and get one from a reliable breeder. They have their quirks but so does every bp. My one normal will strike at you after every feeding I don't know why she just does. My cinnamon pewter doesn't like to ever lay in the warm side of his cage, he's always in the cool side even while digesting.

Thanks guys! Very interesting. Didn't mean to hijack the thread, just thought it was relevant to the topic :)

I also own a spider combo, a spinner blast, no wobble issue at all, he eats like a pig, and the only time i ever saw a hint of a slight wobble was when he was a baby. Now he is 2 years old and 1,100g. I am also raising a enchee firefly, and yes i will eventually breed them, and will not be disappointed with a fire spider out of the bunch, they are beautiful, and if it is as sweet as my boy, its all good. As breeders you do everything possible to breed healthy animals, but you can do just so much, the rest is up to mother nature, or god, which ever way you want to look at it.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

2/ No if it was a possibility since Spider have been around since 1999 and are very prevalent in this industry it would have been done already by now, stacking the gene does not change anything either.

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*With the possible exception of the Blackhead Spider.

While I'm not sure this one counts, because it changes the optics so much, if it is indeed free (or even largely free) of wobble . . . It might lend some evidence to the idea that the spider wobble is not in the brain per se, but an issue of the inner ear created by pigment distribution during development.

Like what Oxy said above, insufficient pigment in the cells of the inner ear affect balance and mess up the snake's little gyro stabilizers, so to speak. Sort of similar to the way inadequate pigments in the cilia create problems in dogs.

Sorry. Nerd moment over :oops:

(Disclaimer: I don't have Spiders. I like them, I've just never seen a spot in the collection for them.)

Spider Morphs are awesome and paired with different morphs they can be amazingly breathtaking! That and it is not a life threatening issue people will keep breeding them. I have a Fire/Spider and a Bee. I want to breed my Fire/Spider to my Butter in hopes of hitting the Nuclear Spider.

Thank you so much for all the replies! I would love to breed on a small scale (but not for YEARS, when I know much more) and was hesitant about any animal with spider in it. But for now I'd just like a pet, and who knows. The wobble might even be endearing. I certainly have some odd traits myself. ;)

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Originally Posted by m1lkhoney

Thank you so much for all the replies! I would love to breed on a small scale (but not for YEARS, when I know much more) and was hesitant about any animal with spider in it. But for now I'd just like a pet, and who knows. The wobble might even be endearing. I certainly have some odd traits myself. ;)

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Agreed it's just more endearing than anything else!

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Originally Posted by m1lkhoney

Thank you so much for all the replies! I would love to breed on a small scale (but not for YEARS, when I know much more) and was hesitant about any animal with spider in it. But for now I'd just like a pet, and who knows. The wobble might even be endearing. I certainly have some odd traits myself. ;)

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Erin check this out. Here are some "issues" with other morphs as well. http://owalreptiles.com/issues.php

Wpow, that's fascinating. Thanks.

I think my cinny lesser guy has a slight duckbill.

Not all spiders exhibit "weird behaviors " either. My spider girl has no wobble, and so far none of her spider gene offspring have shown any issues either.

Your statements would almost be like telling someone with a disability that they shouldn't have kids because they might be "defective". I have a daughter with Muscular Dystrophy, she's FAR from "defective"!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by tat2d1

Not all spiders exhibit "weird behaviors " either. My spider girl has no wobble, and so far none of her spider gene offspring have shown any issues either.

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They ALL DO to a degree if you know what to look for it can be mild and hardly noticeable but they ALL DO, anyone saying any different, is either not paying attention, not knowing what to look for, or using this as a sales tactic and lying.

^^^ What Deborah said plus you can have a situation where you never notice anything or have mild symptoms then suddenly the animal displays extreme symptoms. Just this weekend one of my boys that hasn't done anything extreme in months went totally wonkers on feeding day.

Spiders have what is likely a neurological disorder and I personally will not breed this gene because of it. I agree that the gene is very attractive, but that is not enough for me. If I have to justify its quality of life than I have no interest. This is especially true in animals that it is hard to judge how well they are. Just because an animal attains the basics for life such as breeding, eating, and of course not dying, is it truly living a good life? I am not here to tell people what they should breed, but I definitely think it is ok to think twice about breeding certain traits even if they are well established in the hobby.

Also to the human comparison, I think one of our biggest problems is not being able to look at producing children logically. I agree no one should be able to tell you you shouldn't breed, but I hope as our species moves forward we will be able to self regulate our own breeding for the good of the many. My wife is possibly a carrier for a rare blood disorder, and if there was a chance I was also a carrier than we would just not have children. I hold a similar stance will ball pythons.

Unfortunately due to the fact that we cannot communicate with these creatures the only way to tell that they have a good "quality of life" is by how they thrive. Bp's are notorious for not eating, having poor shed and getting sick when stressed. Knowing this would lead me to believe that if your snake eats well, sheds well and is not sick, it's quality of life is good. Anything beyond that is assumption based on nothing more than personal bias and based on nothing scientific nor factual. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.

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Originally Posted by enginee837

Unfortunately due to the fact that we cannot communicate with these creatures the only way to tell that they have a good "quality of life" is by how they thrive. Bp's are notorious for not eating, having poor shed and getting sick when stressed. Knowing this would lead me to believe that if your snake eats well, sheds well and is not sick, it's quality of life is good. Anything beyond that is assumption based on nothing more than personal bias and based on nothing scientific nor factual. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.

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I totally agree that is hard to judge how well they are, and I am certainly not saying I am more adept at it than others. My point is that I refuse to justify a neurological condition if it is already hard enough to judge the well being of a normal animal. For me spider is out.

Kind of a complicated ethical dilemma. I see it with people who are trying to preserve "heirloom breeds" of livestock. There are pigs whose ears cover their eyes. Pigs whose fat folds cover their eyes. Pigs with such tiny legs and fat bodies they can barely walk. Chickens who can't function as chickens because of breed traits. But some people want to preserve those breeds. I don't believe that just because a breed (or morph) exists, that means it needs to be preserved and continued.

And if a human has a genetic/hereditary disorder, it would be the responsible course of action to consult with a genetic counselor before deciding to make their own babies. Not that anyoen should force them to do so. But I would hope they'd want to.

But if that genetic disorder doesn't severely impact quality-of-life, meh. Do whatever you want.