When people force their own agendas on animals...

Just got the worst question ever.

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It still amazes me how many people think that animals who are strictly carnivores (and very specific carnivores) can become vegetarian. Or that ball pythons can eat slices of beef you buy from the market. I've had someone I know in person scold me on facebook for offering a live rat, back when Cake wouldn't consistently eat F/T. And then she told me, "Don't buy rats. Buy meat from the market. Or chicken."

Reminds me of around a year ago when the internet blew up over whether cats and dogs can be strictly vegan (cats especially are very much carnivores... dogs can live, but will be very unhealthy and get sick). There are already vegan dog/cat foods being sold in stores. Wild.

Comes down to some people are just dumb. Some people are ignorant. Some are both. Most of the time you can just look at something's teeth and generally figure out what it needs to eat. A python's teeth are designed to capture prey. I can't even figure out the logic behind vegan humans let alone trying to make a snake, dog or cat a vegetarian.

Some people don't think. I mean, it's mostly farm people here. Not a lot of people who are against eating meat. One young farm girl told me that it's cruel to feed them rodents, even those that were gassed first. I said "so it would be better if they ate chicken from the store?" and she said yes :confusd:. I asked her what the difference was. Asked if maybe the gassed rodents even had a better death than the chickens who are stunned with electricity and then have their necks cut (which she didn't have a problem with). She couldn't come up with a reason, but still felt that store meat would be preferable. Ok, that's just one ditzy 12-year-old. But it doesn't seem to be an uncommon belief. Idk people, try to explain your beliefs to yourself before you share them, see if they make any sense :P.

I don't like it when people feed their cats or dogs vegetarian/vegan kibble. But at the same time, most cheap kibbles have almost no meat in them anyway. And the most popular dog food in the US is Ol' Roy. So I don't feel like those that do it for their beliefs are any worse than those that do it for financial reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkR2XEYEFgk

I work in a vet clinic and we see people trying to force their cats/dogs to be 'vegan' all the time. When you explain that cats can't survive without meat, the argument is usually that "soy protein fills the same role as meat protein"...umm, yeah cause beans have all the same vitamins and amino acids as animal muscle and organs...People are just...ugh. This is why I like animals :/

While on the subject, the vegans I know also are firm believers that it is cruel to keep any animal in a cage. So I really should just let the snake and fish roam freely all over the house. If they truly love me, they won't run away, right?

As a general rule, humans are dumber than a bag of hammers...

I'll also point out that everyone who keeps pets "forces their agenda" on them at least a little. Do you believe in crating a dog or not? Do you spay/neuter your mammals and at what age? Do you use tubs or a vivarium? Do you feed live or f/t? Do you cage or not (this comes up with some small pets like ferrets and rabbits)? We all have agendas and anyone who lives with us is stuck with them, lol. Including pets.

BUT. . .you should be flexible and do what is necessary for the well-being of your pet. As long as those dependent on you aren't being harmed by it, agendize yer hart out! :D

John, that video is a perfect response to any of these kinds of questions ever LOL

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Comes down to some people are just dumb. Some people are ignorant. Some are both. Most of the time you can just look at something's teeth and generally figure out what it needs to eat. A python's teeth are designed to capture prey. I can't even figure out the logic behind vegan humans let alone trying to make a snake, dog or cat a vegetarian.

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Seriously, and python teeth aren't built to chew either, even just in that regard? I don't know what makes people think they can eat sliced beef, like a dog or cat can. o__o

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Originally Posted by Willowy

Some people don't think. I mean, it's mostly farm people here. Not a lot of people who are against eating meat. One young farm girl told me that it's cruel to feed them rodents, even those that were gassed first. I said "so it would be better if they ate chicken from the store?" and she said yes :confusd:. I asked her what the difference was. Asked if maybe the gassed rodents even had a better death than the chickens who are stunned with electricity and then have their necks cut (which she didn't have a problem with). She couldn't come up with a reason, but still felt that store meat would be preferable. Ok, that's just one ditzy 12-year-old. But it doesn't seem to be an uncommon belief. Idk people, try to explain your beliefs to yourself before you share them, see if they make any sense :P.

I don't like it when people feed their cats or dogs vegetarian/vegan kibble. But at the same time, most cheap kibbles have almost no meat in them anyway. And the most popular dog food in the US is Ol' Roy. So I don't feel like those that do it for their beliefs are any worse than those that do it for financial reasons.

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Right? Hahah this seems to be everyone... Somehow nobody is against feeding butchered dead animals to your snake, since they can't see the whole animal? Somehow?

Agreed about the cheap dog food vs. ignorant beliefs placed on their pets...

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Originally Posted by Crowfingers

I work in a vet clinic and we see people trying to force their cats/dogs to be 'vegan' all the time. When you explain that cats can't survive without meat, the argument is usually that "soy protein fills the same role as meat protein"...umm, yeah cause beans have all the same vitamins and amino acids as animal muscle and organs...People are just...ugh. This is why I like animals :/

While on the subject, the vegans I know also are firm believers that it is cruel to keep any animal in a cage. So I really should just let the snake and fish roam freely all over the house. If they truly love me, they won't run away, right?

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Eewww... Kind of borderline animal rights activists. You know, the people think nobody should own any kind of domesticated animals, ever LOL.

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Originally Posted by Willowy

I'll also point out that everyone who keeps pets "forces their agenda" on them at least a little. Do you believe in crating a dog or not? Do you spay/neuter your mammals and at what age? Do you use tubs or a vivarium? Do you feed live or f/t? Do you cage or not (this comes up with some small pets like ferrets and rabbits)? We all have agendas and anyone who lives with us is stuck with them, lol. Including pets.

BUT. . .you should be flexible and do what is necessary for the well-being of your pet. As long as those dependent on you aren't being harmed by it, agendize yer hart out! :D

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Alright, I used a too general of a term. I just needed a subject line. LOL

Forcing their diet beliefs on all of their pets, then...

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...f5f6b443af.jpg

Lol! Where do they think store meat comes from? At least people in this state get to see where meat comes from every day.

I'm reminded of a story I read---someone mentioned that they have chickens, and a customer asked why they kept chickens. She said for the eggs, and could be meat but they're pets so they personally keep them for eggs only. The customer said "ewwww, you eat something that comes out of a chicken's butt?" so she said "um, yeah, don't you eat eggs?". The customer says "yeah but I get eggs at the store so they didn't come from chickens". Oookkkkk. . . .sometimes there are just no words :D.

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Originally Posted by Reinz

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I'm thinking about planting a steak tree, I think the cows would appreciate that.

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Originally Posted by John1982

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkR2XEYEFgk

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lol...this thread is making me laugh!

Sent from my SGH-S970G using Tapatalk

It is entirely possible to feed any animal vegan diet in theory, but we lack and/or have conflicting info on what humans need. What the heck makes people think we have the info need to do the same to a random animal. Even with the theoretical correct nutrition info, then we need to somehow make a meal that will survive getting squeezed, smells like rodent, retain body heat temps for the picky eaters. Even after that I don't see it being economical. The image of a snake coiling around sushi looking thing in my head is fairly entertaining though.

As for the comment about teeth.... You do realize human teeth pretty much a herbivore as it gets without actually being there. Our canine teeth are pathetic.

I sit on the fringe on the vegan community. I don't even eat vegan all the time, but eventually I may. I will say the community is full of irrational people. It can be hard to look past the illogical crap said to really see the benefits and rational part of vegan diet. For many it's not just a diet, it's a lifestyle/cult. I just have leave it there or I will rant for a while.

Uggg that post w the stab at hunters..wow. I am a hunter, I do hunt to fill my freezers for my family..why?

Because put simply, I have developed a sensitivty to penicillin based meds, one I did not have all my prior 42 years... Coincidently, pennicillin is the most widely and common used med on our domestic live stock. I quit buying meats in the stores a few years ago to avoid pennicillin laced meats. Its not proven that that is indeed what caused my penicillin allergy, however, its only thing I can reasonably think that caused said allergy.

I was raised in a family that hunted our lands... And wasnt until later in life when I started buying store bought meats, my allergy developed. We only kill what we intend on eating..and dont kill something we wouldnt eat..our rule is, if you kill it, u best be planning on eating it.

I too dont understand why people must force their beliefs onto critters as far as what they eat... Eat and let eat!

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

It is entirely possible to feed any animal vegan diet in theory, but we lack and/or have conflicting info on what humans need. What the heck makes people think we have the info need to do the same to a random animal. Even with the theoretical correct nutrition info, then we need to somehow make a meal that will survive getting squeezed, smells like rodent, retain body heat temps for the picky eaters. Even after that I don't see it being economical. The image of a snake coiling around sushi looking thing in my head is fairly entertaining though.

As for the comment about teeth.... You do realize human teeth pretty much a herbivore as it gets without actually being there. Our canine teeth are pathetic.

I sit on the fringe on the vegan community. I don't even eat vegan all the time, but eventually I may. I will say the community is full of irrational people. It can be hard to look past the illogical crap said to really see the benefits and rational part of vegan diet. For many it's not just a diet, it's a lifestyle/cult. I just have leave it there or I will rant for a while.

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I pretty much agree with you. Humans have a swiss army knife type of mouth. Able to handle many things but perfect for none. We really have no need for the canines. We do not catch things with our mouths. There is also the whole digestion thing. You may be able to get it in but digesting well it is another matter entirely. I know people that are vegan and some that are vegetarian. Some it seems to work for and others just look unhealthy. I tried to seriously cut down on my meat intake at one point. It didn't work well for me. I felt like crap all the time. I am a high physical activity person and require the proteins and fats. I imagine there are ways to get a lot of that from vegetable matter but that would require far greater effort than I am willing to put in.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I pretty much agree with you. Humans have a swiss army knife type of mouth. Able to handle many things but perfect for none. We really have no need for the canines. We do not catch things with our mouths. There is also the whole digestion thing. You may be able to get it in but digesting well it is another matter entirely. I know people that are vegan and some that are vegetarian. Some it seems to work for and others just look unhealthy. I tried to seriously cut down on my meat intake at one point. It didn't work well for me. I felt like crap all the time. I am a high physical activity person and require the proteins and fats. I imagine there are ways to get a lot of that from vegetable matter but that would require far greater effort than I am willing to put in.

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It comes down to being educated on what the average human needs and what to eat to get it. Then you begin to modify it to fit you specifically generally just based on how you feel. I have a physically active job, so trust me it is possible to get your energy from plant based foods. But what works for me may not work for you, something that many people can't seem to accept, we are all different. My non veganism is out of pure laziness, i go out to eat with co workers, wife cooks stuff at home, go out to the bar. I don't turn down meals lol.

However getting back to the OP, I would never force my diet on my animals. If I thought it was healthier, feasible, and cost effective, no doubt I would try it, but I don't see any of that being true currently.

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Originally Posted by Slim

As a general rule, humans are dumber than a bag of hammers...

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or a soup sandwich

I tried to feed my tarantula a hot dog. He didn't eat it.

The term that you are looking for is "obligate carnivore," which is an animal that must eat parts of other animals in order to thrive. Yeah, snakes fall into that category.

As for vegans, a rare few do not eat vegan for the animals. My mom recently became a vegan after watching the awful "documentary" titled Forks Over Knives. While that documentary was nonsense, she changed her diet and removed processed foods as part of becoming vegan and her blood pressure dropped below what it was while on blood pressure meds and her cholesterol dropped 50 points. She still eats a bit of meat once in a great while and support hunting and fishing.

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

I tried to feed my tarantula a hot dog. He didn't eat it.

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Reminds me of how many years ago, my local Petco had a bunch of crickets in the ball python cage. I was around 12 years old, and I remember vividly thinking, "I didn't know snakes ate crickets..." And I watched the cage for a long time, waiting for the ball python to eat a cricket. Adults and Petco employees can lack so much common sense sometimes.

(Granted, there are a couple uncommon species that eat crickets... but man)

There are plenty of good moral and ethical reasons why a person might choose not to eat meat, not the least of them being that much of American meat production is an ethical and environmental disaster. Most meat that Americans eat is not by any stretch of the imagination like shooting a wild deer in the woods and feeding your family on it for weeks. (OK, I knowingly behave unethically in this situation, because I know all the reasons why I shouldn't and I eat it anyway because it is delicious)

But humans have adapted to an extremely varied diet. There are indigenous human populations whose diets are almost entirely plant-based, and other populations whose diets are almost entirely meat/fish based, which is pretty amazing when you think about it; and also quite rare for native populations of the same species to have diets that differ from each other so much.

And in developed countries we have access to an unprecedented variety of foods with origins all over the world if we want them. We can cook and otherwise process things that would normally be difficult or impossible to digest. We can separate out specific components of those things, to get things like olive oil or protein powder.

So we have the privilege of making the personal choice to eat meat or not, because we have so many possible ways to get what we need. Lots of humans don't even really have that choice; a person in a poor fishing village in a developing country can't just decide to eat fake'n bacon instead of fish, and a poor farmer in a different developing country can't just decide to eat chicken nuggets instead of rice.

But most animals require much more highly specific diets than we do. Their biology has evolved to eat certain things, and we don't currently have the ability to synthesize all of their requirements from plants only (if we even knew all the things they really need, which we don't).

Trying to feed obligate carnivores a vegan diet is a kind of anthropomorphizing; it assumes that they have the same choices that we do, and they don't.

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Originally Posted by Coluber42

But most animals require much more highly specific diets than we do. Their biology has evolved to eat certain things, and we don't currently have the ability to synthesize all of their requirements from plants only (if we even knew all the things they really need, which we don't).

Trying to feed obligate carnivores a vegan diet is a kind of anthropomorphizing; it assumes that they have the same choices that we do, and they don't.

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Yep, LOL. Crazy people.

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Originally Posted by Coluber42

Trying to feed obligate carnivores a vegan diet is a kind of anthropomorphizing; it assumes that they have the same choices that we do, and they don't.

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Hit the nail on the head, I think. So many people ascribe moral or political values to their lifestyle/diet preferences, which is fine, but then for some reason insist on projecting that outward. It's bad enough to do it to other people, but to project that onto animals? A cat or snake can't make a moral or political choice not to eat meat; they're obligate carnivores. Beyond that, they're animals without the advanced cognition necessary to even make a choice like that! Not only is it the worst kind of anthropocentric thinking, it's animal cruelty. Ughhhh it makes me so frustrated.

I work with raptors and have had 'vegan' volunteers be absolutely appalled that I chop up f/t mice for tiny baby hawks. When I ask what they think the birds eat in the wild, they can't come up with a good reason as to why it's cruel for me to butcher frozen/thawed mice but not cruel for a wild hawk to kill and eat a wild mouse.

I usually get some response along the lines that domestic mice/rats are cruelly raised in unnatural cages and suffer the short time they are alive and then murdered by humans for use that nature did not intend and that they have no hope of escaping v.s. in the wild mice have fun fulfilling lives and have a chance to survive to a ripe old age. Now, I've had pet mice that lived to a geriatric age of 2.5 years had arthritis and got cataracts and tumors. I have also been an avid outdoors person all my life and grew up on a farm where wild mice were a regular problem. Not once did I ever see a crotchety tumorous wild mouse skittering along with a mini-walker in the barn. They live fast and die young, that's the way it is.

ALSO, even more than that -

people need to stop trying to make animals be more than animals. They act on instinct and react to stimulus, they don't plot / calculate harm / ponder their existence / or become enlightened and live better lives of their own accord. I annoys me to know end that people will immediately act with deadly force against an animal that attacks a person no matter the circumstances, then turn around and say that they want a wolf / large constrictor / something else impressive for a pet because it's cool. Also, since they will love it, the animal will "love" them and won't hurt them because it's thankful that it is being taken care of.

[end rant]

Well, there are many, many children's books in which mice and rats are the heroes, such as Stuart Little, Inkheart, Redwall, The Rescuers etc. Students come up through their childhoods reading about and falling in love with little mice with big personalities. My middle school students were a little unhappy when they learned and witnessed the classroom snake eating mice. To lighten things up, we give his meals names, like, Mouse on Rye Toast, Mouse Fricasse, Mouse Over Easy, and Mouse Casserole.

Its a trade off with kids. They tolerated meals better with f/t mice than if I fed him live, and they learn important lessons in husbandry and responsibility but just wait until a mouse gets into their house and chews up the wires in their Xbox. When that happens, they're all about wanting to feed that big bad mouse to a snake. (I dont let them. Only captive-bred food.)

This might help explain a child's perspective. I have no explanation for adults....

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Originally Posted by Willowy

Some people don't think. I mean, it's mostly farm people here. Not a lot of people who are against eating meat. One young farm girl told me that it's cruel to feed them rodents, even those that were gassed first. I said "so it would be better if they ate chicken from the store?" and she said yes :confusd:. I asked her what the difference was. Asked if maybe the gassed rodents even had a better death than the chickens who are stunned with electricity and then have their necks cut (which she didn't have a problem with). She couldn't come up with a reason, but still felt that store meat would be preferable. Ok, that's just one ditzy 12-year-old. But it doesn't seem to be an uncommon belief. Idk people, try to explain your beliefs to yourself before you share them, see if they make any sense :P.

I don't like it when people feed their cats or dogs vegetarian/vegan kibble. But at the same time, most cheap kibbles have almost no meat in them anyway. And the most popular dog food in the US is Ol' Roy. So I don't feel like those that do it for their beliefs are any worse than those that do it for financial reasons.

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Originally Posted by Greensleeves001

Well, there are many, many children's books in which mice and rats are the heroes, such as Stuart Little, Inkheart, Redwall, The Rescuers etc. Students come up through their childhoods reading about and falling in love with little mice with big personalities. My middle school students were a little unhappy when they learned and witnessed the classroom snake eating mice. To lighten things up, we give his meals names, like, Mouse on Rye Toast, Mouse Fricasse, Mouse Over Easy, and Mouse Casserole.

Its a trade off with kids. They tolerated meals better with f/t mice than if I fed him live, and they learn important lessons in husbandry and responsibility but just wait until a mouse gets into their house and chews up the wires in their Xbox. When that happens, they're all about wanting to feed that big bad mouse to a snake. (I dont let them. Only captive-bred food.)

This might help explain a child's perspective. I have no explanation for adults....

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Could be for some... Or maybe that kids/adults in general feel that anything they themselves don't normally eat, shouldn't get eaten? Eating chicken, beef, pork is something all humans do (not including vegans... you know what I mean) and is ingrained in most of our minds as totally A-OK meat to eat. That could be why adults and anyone subconsciously feels it's 100% okay to eat chicken/beef/pork/store-bought meat, than something odd (and cute) like a mouse, which we normally see alive and we don't eat.

I also grew up reading Redwall! It's still one of my favorite book series! My 3rd grade science teacher had a milk snake who he fed live mice. I was always fascinated with watching the snake eat live, as a kid... Maybe some kids are morbid. :P

I think you can make the argument that it's more ethical to feed a snake f/t than live; the snake doesn't get the experience of killing actual live prey, but considering that a BP that will take a f/t meal will still constrict it for awhile anyway (and I sort of suspect that my old corn snake preferred them that way because they were more cooperative), I would say that the interest of the rodent to not suffer more than necessary outweighs the interest of the snake to enjoy live meals. As a keeper, I do have that choice, and I believe that f/t for any animal that will eat that is the more ethical choice. So in that case I am imposing my ethics (and, let's be honest, my convenience!) on my snake. But I'm not doing so to his nutritional detriment.