I didnt know where to put this... selfish or not? (Long Post)

So i got in a giant argument with a person i don't know on the internet last night. For some reason they really pushed my buttons and i kept coming back to it. It started because I jokingly posted that I would start a crowdfunding project to buy a female banana i saw on morph market so i can get her AND the black head i was already planning on getting. This person responded saying "i hope your joking, people use crowdfunding for necessities". I made the mistake of instigating the argument by giving a response that said I was indeed joking, that i they dont necessarily know my motives and i could want the snake for business or mental health or something, and that crowdfunding was made so someone can put out a goal and then other people can choose to give money or not. This started a really long and time wasting argument between me and some person about this. We both made mistakes, them not knowing how the banana gene worked and saying it was "VERY rare for a female to hatch at all", me saying that morphmarket is more popular than kingsnake or fauna based on recommendations i usually see on here. All in all, the argument boiled down to a few key points which i will summarize here.

They said i was selfish and in me posting the crowdfunding for a new snake i was taking away the opportunity for people to get help when they actually need it. I mention that there are different categories, so it wont be next to actual health/necessity needs they would be by things such as goals for trips etc, and that many of the necessities were scams anyway (id like to see a study on how much are scams and how much arent, i personally do contribute to some i see on the news or from friends/internet friends). I also say that i am putting a goal out there and other people are choosing to give money to that cause and i shouldn't be called selfish for it just making it known that that is what i was working toward and saying that i will accept donations. They called me a beggar and said that it was not other peoples responsibility to pay for my snake, in which my response was that I didnt expect anyone to pay for it it would be nice if i got some help but i wasnt expecting anything, meaning i wasnt making it a responsibility (which i have issue with even saying donating toward needs/necessities is a responsibility because really it boils down to choice) it would just help me get a snake faster than planned.

They said the ball market is dead so making money off of it is not a thing (aka that i would lose a decent amount of money). They then used the fact that they breed corns as an example, I said that it was just an example on "why" to crowdfund not that i necessarily cared about making money. Also I said that breeders do make some money especially if they have multiple gene offspring, but again, that i dont care about making money. I then mention that the corn and ball market/ prices are tough to compare because they dont have the same prices or demand.

From this there spawned a discussion about Banana's specifically. They said that they have seen many males for < 100$ and that they will lose all their value (have already begun) and females will sell for 150 with a max of 200 in a year or two and males would be < 100 (and that they already are). I didnt believe them, even at local prices about the males <100. The absolute lowest ive seen a single gene male banana go for is 199$ and i could see a 150$ from local. but under 100$? Is this an actual price that bananas are at in places? They arent that price in my market at all going from 175-250+ for single gene depending.

There was also mention about "if you cant afford owning a snake you shouldnt buy it". I responded by saying i have money for the vet, i had extra food, i had extra enclosures/heat, and i was talking specifically about the face value of the snake because I was also buying a black head soon and wanted to get both at a similar time which, as yall probably know, a banana and a black head together can get pricey. I also have the potential to get the snake at a later date (like money wise), in this theoretical scenario i was just joking that posting the crowd funding to get the snake faster than i could by myself (not that i couldnt afford it).

TLDR; I wanted to have an actual discussion about this in a non heated environment. Many things were said (including them accusing me of loving bhb and snakebytetv, saying i shouldnt breed because i didnt know the market, and me saying they were misinformed about the banana gene and prices) so i figured id post it here in a non heated environment for some actual discussion. My questions are, would it be selfish to post a gofundme about getting a snake baby (or any other herp)? is it right to get a snake using someone else's gifts? Is the ball market dead? Is there such things as a banana < 100$? What do you think about kingsnake vs morph vs fauna? any other comments on this topic (other than how i was an idiot for fighting about a fictional scenerio with a stranger for a long time... i already know that :P)?

I should mention that I'm not actually posting one I was mostly joking

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Ball pythons morphs depreciate hard, especially single genes.

Thst said, people crowd sourcing can use it for whatever they want, people can donate or not, but the truth is people asking for things that are 'wants' (honeymoons, weddings... Snakes) has made many people less likely to believe or donate in other situations that are things like medical bills, funeral expenses, or saving the house. I see convos about that in other forums all the time and it boils down to getting sick of seeing hands out everywhere and becoming irritated with the whole concept. When they had and have donated in the past.

This is not gonna be heated but this will be the truth

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would it be selfish to post a gofundme about getting a snake baby

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It's not selfish, it just makes the person part of the group of people who feel entitled (the GIVE me crowd), I personally prefer seeing people taking pride in working hard and earning what they have instead of seeing people looking for handouts.....than again I guess the easy way is better for some. :rolleyes: (BTW some people actually do this)

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Is the ball market dead?

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According to people the sky has been falling for a decade yet, their are more people coming to the hobby each year. The market has evolved as it always will, the people claiming the market is dead are those that lack the commitment, work ethic, passion and the people who haven been incapable to evolve with the market. Yes the price drop and always will but the same drop in rices allow more people to buy snakes that were once out of reach.

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Is there such things as a banana < 100$?

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There will be it's inevitable, supply and demand.

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What do you think about kingsnake vs morph vs fauna?

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Kingsnake and Fauna have been here a LONG time and offer things that Morphs Market does not offer, Morphs Market is a great tool much more user friendly whether it is on the customer or seller's end. All are a great tools to advertise and sell.

Personally, while I wouldn't mind donating to a campaign to get a snake as a companion or therapy animal, I don't think I would be comfortable donating to someone who wants to buy a breeding animal. That's just my personal opinion. I don't think you're intrinsically in the wrong for attempting to crowdfund a snake for a breeding project, the platform can be used for anything you want, but I wouldn't want to put money into a goal intended to eventually make someone else money. Now, if you were offering a first pick of the hatchlings or a discount on offspring to your hypothetical funders, that would be different, that would be paying in for a potential future return and wouldn't sit weird with me. But asking for money for a snake that you're capable of affording on your own just because you want to have it sooner... yeah, that strikes me as a little selfish.

That said, I also think asking people to crowdfund vacations/trips/other non-necessities is also kind of selfish. I wouldn't donate to those campaigns either. But is it still a legitimate use of the crowdfunding platform? Sure. Is your hypothetical snake campaign a valid use too? Sure. Just because I think it's selfish and wouldn't donate doesn't mean you're in the wrong for wanting to give it a try (hypothetically).

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Originally Posted by CptJack

Ball pythons morphs depreciate hard, especially single genes.

Thst said, people crowd sourcing can use it for whatever they want, people can donate or not, but the truth is people asking for things that are 'wants' (honeymoons, weddings... Snakes) has made many people less likely to believe or donate in other situations that are things like medical bills, funeral expenses, or saving the house. I see convos about that in other forums all the time and it boils down to getting sick of seeing hands out everywhere and becoming irritated with the whole concept. When they had and have donated in the past.

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Yeah I figured as much. This type of thinking is really strange to me. I personally am more wary of health problems and mortgages and stuff that are fake or where people start them and don't put the money toward that. I also would donate double to a problem because I feel bad for putting money toward something trivial like a snake. I guess this one is a difference of opinion thing and highly depends on your perceptions of the people that use crowdfunding.

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Originally Posted by CptJack

Ball pythons morphs depreciate hard, especially single genes.

Thst said, people crowd sourcing can use it for whatever they want, people can donate or not, but the truth is people asking for things that are 'wants' (honeymoons, weddings... Snakes) has made many people less likely to believe or donate in other situations that are things like medical bills, funeral expenses, or saving the house. I see convos about that in other forums all the time and it boils down to getting sick of seeing hands out everywhere and becoming irritated with the whole concept. When they had and have donated in the past.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

This is not gonna be heated but this will be the truth

It's not selfish, it just makes the person part of the group of people who feel entitled (the GIVE me crowd), I personally prefer seeing people taking pride in working hard and earning what they have instead of seeing people looking for handouts.....than again I guess the easy way is better for some. :rolleyes: (BTW some people actually do this)

According to people the sky has been falling for a decade yet, their are more people coming to the hobby each year. The market has evolved as it always will, the people claiming the market is dead are those that lack the commitment, work ethic, passion and the people who haven been incapable to evolve with the market. Yes the price drop and always will but the same drop in rices allow more people to buy snakes that were once out of reach.

There will be it's inevitable, supply and demand.

Kingsnake and Fauna have been here a LONG time and offer things that Morphs Market does not offer, Morphs Market is a great tool much more user friendly whether it is on the customer or seller's end. All are a great tools to advertise and sell.

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Does this apply for people not looking for handouts, but just putting the opportunities there? I personally think the difference is that asking for handouts and begging is an active thing, where this would be a passive thing. I argued so much because I personally don't think I'm lazy or a give me person for even considering it and my differences between active and passive gave me a different perspective.

And I know banana prices will drop inevitably the reason I argued then so much at that point was that they said theyve seen them (multiple) at that price now

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Originally Posted by Nellasaur

Personally, while I wouldn't mind donating to a campaign to get a snake as a companion or therapy animal, I don't think I would be comfortable donating to someone who wants to buy a breeding animal. That's just my personal opinion. I don't think you're intrinsically in the wrong for attempting to crowdfund a snake for a breeding project, the platform can be used for anything you want, but I wouldn't want to put money into a goal intended to eventually make someone else money. Now, if you were offering a first pick of the hatchlings or a discount on offspring to your hypothetical funders, that would be different, that would be paying in for a potential future return and wouldn't sit weird with me. But asking for money for a snake that you're capable of affording on your own just because you want to have it sooner... yeah, that strikes me as a little selfish.

That said, I also think asking people to crowdfund vacations/trips/other non-necessities is also kind of selfish. I wouldn't donate to those campaigns either. But is it still a legitimate use of the crowdfunding platform? Sure. Is your hypothetical snake campaign a valid use too? Sure. Just because I think it's selfish and wouldn't donate doesn't mean you're in the wrong for wanting to give it a try (hypothetically).

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It's funny because I gave an example like that that with tiers like a kickstarter project and asked if it was still okay and they argued about my prizes and not if it is the same situation.

And that was kind of the thing I was arguing for in a way? I was saying that I wouldn't be making the person give me money it would be completely up to them. I personally differentiate selfishness based off impact and whether it is active or passive. I feel like a snake is low impact (where a scam is high impact) and a passive crowdfund (not lying and say I need the snake, not plastering over all social media and forums ever, not even saying I can't afford it ever just that I'm doing it for a bump) I don't think it's very selfish at all. I attribute it to having an Amazon/steam/some type of X-mas wish list and someone deciding to pick something up off it for you. I'm not disagreeing with you though, and I can totally see how you and others can think that way. Especially now that I'm cooled down

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Soord - how old are you?

No you were not being selfish but you're not acting like an adult either. You are a new member and new to snakes? Why not give it a while and save up some money and slowly dip your feet into the hobby to warm them up... I think there is A LOT more to breeding and learning morphs ect. and you have a lot to learn. I think the very experienced breeders maybe make a little bit of money or if you produce a new morph you might get a big payout but I don't think every breeder is getting rich. Sounds like the both of you didn't really know the subject matter you were arguing about very well.

If someone needs money for a medical purpose I am okay with that or maybe for a sports field trip or girl guides, food... things along those lines but the people who are out there asking people to fund them for new pets, trips, cars....that's super lame in my opinion...get a job!

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Does this apply for people not looking for handouts, but just putting the opportunities there? I personally think the difference is that asking for handouts and begging is an active thing, where this would be a passive thing.

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Seems to me that your hypothetical scenario sound more and more like you wanting someones approval.

There is no difference between active and passive, it's still asking for money, someone else's hard earned money.

An opportunity would be for someone to invest in a business, not the case here it would be someone giving you money for YOU to benefit from it.

You can call it whatever you want , an opportunity, something passive......it's still a handout, the difference is by calling it something else it makes you feel better, personally when I accomplish something I like to know that I did it on my own because of my hard work not because of someone else's.....than again I am old school and believe in hard work, not entitlement and free stuffs because I am special ;)

I have really mixed feelings on crowdfunding. I think it's a great resource for someone that's fallen on hard times i.e. death of a loved one, illness of themselves, a loved one or a pet, loss of property to natural disaster, or even someone leaving a domestic abuse situation as a way to help pay for necessities. I can even see the use outside of necessities such as instead of having a donation jar at a wedding for a honeymoon fund, setting up an online donation instead. That being said I see far, far too many gofundme's created for wants like a broken xbox, a new car, new phone etc. Personally I think it's tacky to ask people to give you money for something you don't need, and I would not donate to someone asking for money to buy a snake no matter what their reasoning. But the glory of crowdfunding is that I don't have to donate to anyone's fund, and everyone is free to ask for whatever they choose to.

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Originally Posted by Snoopyslim

Soord - how old are you?

No you were not being selfish but you're not acting like an adult either. You are a new member and new to snakes? Why not give it a while and save up some money and slowly dip your feet into the hobby to warm them up... I think there is A LOT more to breeding and learning morphs ect. and you have a lot to learn. I think the very experienced breeders maybe make a little bit of money or if you produce a new morph you might get a big payout but I don't think every breeder is getting rich. Sounds like the both of you didn't really know the subject matter you were arguing about very well.

If someone needs money for a medical purpose I am okay with that or maybe for a sports field trip or girl guides, food... things along those lines but the people who are out there asking people to fund them for new pets, trips, cars....that's super lame in my opinion...get a job!

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This is a little more egotistical than i wanted. I am 24 and i have a full time job, pay my own bills, file my own taxes, own my own stock, contribute to a 401k, pay for my own car and insurance, and have a boatload of student debt just like many of us here (sans the student debt maybe). I got my first snake about 2 years ago so i am fairly new and have a lot to learn, I understand that, but i would appreciate if you didnt act like i was a child. I have a plan to get my feet wet, which is why i planned on getting the female now in the first place haha. Females need 2+ years to grow to breeding size and my plan is to give them 3+. I have a couple balls and they will breed the year after next, if i like breeding, great! if i dont? If i get the snakes now I have wonderful pets and two of my favorite morphs (black heads and bananas) as awesome pets.

I guess i dont understand the feet wet thing. Could you explain what you meant a little more?

I also think it would be ridiculous if anyone thinks they will get rich breeding t :P I dont see a lot of Bugatti's at reptile expos XD I was just saying that breeders can make some semblance of money.

In other news, the person i argued against was an established corn breeder somewhere in the east. Also i could see a medical expense or something but how is a sports field trip or food different? and what is a girl guide?

An example of ultimate classless behavior is someone I'm friends with posting their gofundme link last week saying "help ____ get back on her feet", then yesterday seeing the same person post about the brand new Mercedes her boyfriend got for her.

I'm not saying that's what you're suggesting at all, but it's a classic example of tacky crowdfunding and I agree with some pp's that any solicitation of money is an active act regardless of the reason.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Seems to me that your hypothetical scenario sound more and more like you wanting someones approval.

There is no difference between active and passive, it's still asking for money, someone else's hard earned money.

An opportunity would be for someone to invest in a business, not the case here it would be someone giving you money for YOU to benefit from it.

You can call it whatever you want , an opportunity, something passive......it's still a handout, the difference is by calling it something else it makes you feel better, personally when I accomplish something I like to know that I did it on my own because of my hard work not because of someone else's.....than again I am old school and believe in hard work, not entitlement and free stuffs because I am special ;)

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I dont really know whos approval you are talking about?

I guess an example would be a tip jar you set out. You arent asking for anything, it is just there. You probably dont even expect anything, but if people gives you money that is their choice to spend their "hard earned" money. If my gf mentions she wants to go to a ball game sometime, and you surprise her with tickets, is that a scenerio of her being selfish? Im not trying to get anyones approval for anything im just trying to wrap my head around where the line is? What makes that scenerio different? Or taking a friend to a music show spontaneously? Or even buying your child a puppy they have on their xmas list? Where does the line end? (not to get philosophical haha)

Also Begging involves asking imho which is not done in this crowdfunding scenerio, it is just created there. I mentioned nothing about how i would promote it or anything but you can assume that it would be just created, with a link available on my blog that says "donate if you want" or something.

I could argue about the last statement too but i wont in effort to try to keep politics out of it :P

Handouts are by nature active. You ask someone to give you money for something without giving anything in return. A gofundme is no different than standing on a street corner with cup and a sign. Not chasing them down the street doesn't make it passive.

Active solicitation with somethin in return is selling or investing if you are offering them more money back.

Totaliy passive requires someone give you money WITHOUT asking.

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Originally Posted by Christinnnian

An example of ultimate classless behavior is someone I'm friends with posting their gofundme link last week saying "help ____ get back on her feet", then yesterday seeing the same person post about the brand new Mercedes her boyfriend got for her.

I'm not saying that's what you're suggesting at all, but it's a classic example of tacky crowdfunding and I agree with some pp's that any solicitation of money is an active act regardless of the reason.

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Oh i agree! I totally think that is crap and I absolutely hate that that is something people do. I guess the difference is that she would be using coercion to get a few bucks. Which i think i mentioned I am completely against. That is a scam and that is imho the biggest problem with gofundme.

This scenerio is a little different though, because it would be a person posting saying, "I am working toward getting this snake". There isn't coercion or deceit, there is just a honest goal set out with the option to donate.

I completely understand people being wary about things like that but i dont think an ad saying i am trying to get a snake really ads to that per say.

I am a little against whether it is active because i think if you make it it is active, but that turns to passive if you dont really promote it. That actually might be the confusion in the first place. In my head i was thinking id put like a donate button on my website or something and not really promote it at all, just have it be there. I think a lot of people imagined me pasting over social media ever two days for a few weeks. Thank you for the insight.

I'll tell you a little story about gofundme. My oldest son got very sick. He is on his own but not established enough to handle those kinds of bills. I made a deal with my ex-wife that I would cover half and she would cover half. She decided she was going to get her half by using gofundme (she did not need to do this). When I found out I was mortified. I was raised that things are handled within the family. I immediately called her up and said I would pay for the whole thing and sent a check to my son for the full amount of the hospital bill. She kept the money she got from gofundme anyway and did lord knows what with it. Personally I think that is lower than low. This is the type of thing you are dealing with on gofundme.

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Originally Posted by CptJack

Handouts are by nature active. You ask someone to give you money for something without giving anything in return. A gofundme is no different than standing on a street corner with cup and a sign. Not chasing them down the street doesn't make it passive.

Active solicitation with somethin in return is selling or investing if you are offering them more money back.

Totaliy passive requires someone give you money WITHOUT asking.

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That is a good point. There is some form of activeness in just setting it up. I guess i was thinking about more in terms of promoting the crowdfund source and that theoretically wouldnt be actively promoting it. I didnt even consider that people would view making it in the first place as an active act.

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Originally Posted by Soord

This is a little more egotistical than i wanted. I am 24 and i have a full time job, pay my own bills, file my own taxes, own my own stock, contribute to a 401k, pay for my own car and insurance, and have a boatload of student debt just like many of us here (sans the student debt maybe). I got my first snake about 2 years ago so i am fairly new and have a lot to learn, I understand that, but i would appreciate if you didnt act like i was a child. I have a plan to get my feet wet, which is why i planned on getting the female now in the first place haha. Females need 2+ years to grow to breeding size and my plan is to give them 3+. I have a couple balls and they will breed the year after next, if i like breeding, great! if i dont? If i get the snakes now I have wonderful pets and two of my favorite morphs (black heads and bananas) as awesome pets.

I guess i dont understand the feet wet thing. Could you explain what you meant a little more?

I also think it would be ridiculous if anyone thinks they will get rich breeding t :P I dont see a lot of Bugatti's at reptile expos XD I was just saying that breeders can make some semblance of money.

In other news, the person i argued against was an established corn breeder somewhere in the east. Also i could see a medical expense or something but how is a sports field trip or food different? and what is a girl guide?

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Sorry I didn't know your history and from your post I did think you were under the age of 19. Anyways I shouldn't have been high on my horse and it does sounds like you have your own 'plan.' Good luck with your future.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I'll tell you a little story about gofundme. My oldest son got very sick. He is on his own but not established enough to handle those kinds of bills. I made a deal with my ex-wife that I would cover half and she would cover half. She decided she was going to get her half by using gofundme (she did not need to do this). When I found out I was mortified. I was raised that things are handled within the family. I immediately called her up and said I would pay for the whole thing and sent a check to my son for the full amount of the hospital bill. She kept the money she got from gofundme anyway and did lord knows what with it. Personally I think that is lower than low. This is the type of thing you are dealing with on gofundme.

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True that. I am wary of gofundmes because at least with kickstarter there are pledge goals, where gfm (for people you dont know) is literally a blind donation for ANYTHING that the person uses the money for. I have never used crowdfunding for myself and dont have an account with any except kickstarter (the tech and some of the comics and other stuff is incredible). Thanks for the insight. I definitely think i have a better idea of what they were thinking, especially since i didnt set up the scenerio at all I just mentioned as a joke that i might have to set one up.

I also hope you guys believe me when i say that i wouldnt do that because i make plenty of money myself, i was just kind of curious about the morals behind it.

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Originally Posted by Snoopyslim

Sorry I didn't know your history and from your post I did think you were under the age of 19. Anyways I shouldn't have been high on my horse and it does sounds like you have your own 'plan.' Good luck with your future.

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Haha its all good. I think the whole reason i fought soooo much was because of they insinuated that i was a bad owner (comparing me to bhb reptiles and saying i probably like snakebytetv, some stuff notorious on fauna for devenoming (which is a huge debate about cruelty) and the the alleged poor quality of bhb reptiles (i have never bought from them so idk how they actually are, just read reviews). You guys really gave me a perspective to their thinking without attacking my husbandry and stuff and im honestly really curious at the morality and stuff surrounding this topic. (also what yall though of the market)

I guess i just see red and act like a teen with an attitude problem when i feel someone thinks i would ever abuse or neglect my beautiful babies :P

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Originally Posted by Soord

I dont really know whos approval you are talking about?

I guess an example would be a tip jar you set out. You arent asking for anything, it is just there. You probably dont even expect anything, but if people gives you money that is their choice to spend their "hard earned" money. If my gf mentions she wants to go to a ball game sometime, and you surprise her with tickets, is that a scenerio of her being selfish? Im not trying to get anyones approval for anything im just trying to wrap my head around where the line is? What makes that scenerio different? Or taking a friend to a music show spontaneously? Or even buying your child a puppy they have on their xmas list? Where does the line end? (not to get philosophical haha)

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The difference in your examples is that you're referencing giving someone a gift that incidentally has a monetary value. The contrast with crowdfunded donations is that people are donating a liquid form of currency that can theoretically be spent on anything, and people like to feel secure when they make a donation that it is for a legit and reasoned expense. A tip jar is an active solicitation because it's usually right at the register and labeled; it's there in plain sight and hard to miss. Obviously no one is obligated to tip but it's the visibility and presence that makes it an active act. Giving someone a gift with monetary value that they've expressed interest in is completely different because you've already determined how the money is spent, i.e. tickets to a game or a puppy. Obviously someone could sell the tickets or puppy and turn the gift into liquid currency, but you as a gift giver would be highly offended. In my opinion the line has a lot to do with the form in which you are soliciting- if you're soliciting money for a want, that is tacky, but if you're soliciting items useful to your goal then your donators feel this is more of a gift and are secure in their investment in that you're locked in to what they give you and can't say "buying a snake" and then buying hookers and blow lol.

Ughhh... Good for you (and shame on her).

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I'll tell you a little story about gofundme. My oldest son got very sick. He is on his own but not established enough to handle those kinds of bills. I made a deal with my ex-wife that I would cover half and she would cover half. She decided she was going to get her half by using gofundme (she did not need to do this). When I found out I was mortified. I was raised that things are handled within the family. I immediately called her up and said I would pay for the whole thing and sent a check to my son for the full amount of the hospital bill. She kept the money she got from gofundme anyway and did lord knows what with it. Personally I think that is lower than low. This is the type of thing you are dealing with on gofundme.

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Originally Posted by Christinnnian

The difference in your examples is that you're referencing giving someone a gift that incidentally has a monetary value. The contrast with crowdfunded donations is that people are donating a liquid form of currency that can theoretically be spent on anything, and people like to feel secure when they make a donation that it is for a legit and reasoned expense. A tip jar is an active solicitation because it's usually right at the register and labeled; it's there in plain sight and hard to miss. Obviously no one is obligated to tip but it's the visibility and presence that makes it an active act. Giving someone a gift with monetary value that they've expressed interest in is completely different because you've already determined how the money is spent, i.e. tickets to a game or a puppy. Obviously someone could sell the tickets or puppy and turn the gift into liquid currency, but you as a gift giver would be highly offended. In my opinion the line has a lot to do with the form in which you are soliciting- if you're soliciting money for a want, that is tacky, but if you're soliciting items then your donators feel secure in their investment in that you're locked in to what they give you and can't say "buying a snake" and then buying hookers and blow lol.

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That is a good way to explain it. I guess it could carry over to an Amazon wishlist too in a way that you actually buy the item for them you arent giving "liquid money" into their accounts. So people have a natural aversion to crowdfunding because of the lack of security with it? I guess i wouldn't inherently call that selfish until it becomes coercion in the same way that i dont view a tip jar is selfish until you find out the owner takes a large percentage for himself. I do agree with you that it is inherently active, though. Youve convinced me of that but i feel like i need to redefine being selfish now :P. The line is still a little muddled for me when it comes to being selfish and not (as i mentioned with the tip jar). There is a lot of grey area with that example too because of the weird politics behind wages and service industry workers and it is a toss up which restaurant pays actual wages so im not sure it can even be defined or answered at all. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Christinnnian

The difference in your examples is that you're referencing giving someone a gift that incidentally has a monetary value. The contrast with crowdfunded donations is that people are donating a liquid form of currency that can theoretically be spent on anything, and people like to feel secure when they make a donation that it is for a legit and reasoned expense. A tip jar is an active solicitation because it's usually right at the register and labeled; it's there in plain sight and hard to miss. Obviously no one is obligated to tip but it's the visibility and presence that makes it an active act. Giving someone a gift with monetary value that they've expressed interest in is completely different because you've already determined how the money is spent, i.e. tickets to a game or a puppy. Obviously someone could sell the tickets or puppy and turn the gift into liquid currency, but you as a gift giver would be highly offended. In my opinion the line has a lot to do with the form in which you are soliciting- if you're soliciting money for a want, that is tacky, but if you're soliciting items useful to your goal then your donators feel this is more of a gift and are secure in their investment in that you're locked in to what they give you and can't say "buying a snake" and then buying hookers and blow lol.

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This is basically exactly what I was just going to say about the line between a donation towards a non-necessary expense and a gift. It's one thing when a person decides to make a "donation" in the form of a gift towards someone they love, and another for a person to reach out to anyone, even potential strangers, and ask for money. Even, say, a honeymoon fund jar (or online donation fund) is a gift situation-- if you're setting up a fund where wedding guests can make a donation towards your honeymoon, then clearly that would be considered part of their wedding gift to you. Same thing if I reached out to a bunch of my friends privately and said "Hey, I want to buy this snake for my birthday, can you give me money in lieu of a physical gift?" (I actually did that this year as I was trying to save up for some Transformers figures that I wanted. A few of my friends "donated" money to me, but it was specifically in lieu of an alternative gift that they would have bought me anyway.)

Additionally, I don't think it's fair to equate a tip jar to crowdfunding non-necessary expenses. When you leave someone a tip, it's generally considered a payment for exemplary service received. I don't tip to randomly donate to staff at a coffee shop or ice cream parlor, I tip because they're served me really well and I want to show them my appreciation. Even online tip jars-- like a link to a Paypal account on someone's blog-- is generally still considered to be a gratuity given in appreciation for a service. It's just that in the case of a blog, the service you're appreciating is the content the blogger provides, whatever that happens to be.

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Originally Posted by Nellasaur

This is basically exactly what I was just going to say about the line between a donation towards a non-necessary expense and a gift. It's one thing when a person decides to make a "donation" in the form of a gift towards someone they love, and another for a person to reach out to anyone, even potential strangers, and ask for money. Even, say, a honeymoon fund jar (or online donation fund) is a gift situation-- if you're setting up a fund where wedding guests can make a donation towards your honeymoon, then clearly that would be considered part of their wedding gift to you. Same thing if I reached out to a bunch of my friends privately and said "Hey, I want to buy this snake for my birthday, can you give me money in lieu of a physical gift?" (I actually did that this year as I was trying to save up for some Transformers figures that I wanted. A few of my friends "donated" money to me, but it was specifically in lieu of an alternative gift that they would have bought me anyway.)

Additionally, I don't think it's fair to equate a tip jar to crowdfunding non-necessary expenses. When you leave someone a tip, it's generally considered a payment for exemplary service received. I don't tip to randomly donate to staff at a coffee shop or ice cream parlor, I tip because they're served me really well and I want to show them my appreciation. Even online tip jars-- like a link to a Paypal account on someone's blog-- is generally still considered to be a gratuity given in appreciation for a service. It's just that in the case of a blog, the service you're appreciating is the content the blogger provides, whatever that happens to be.

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I pretty much agree with the first part. It is a lot different with people you know and with items that you know it is for (even though it can be used for other things, you have an inherent trust in the person).

The second part I feel just gets into semantics about payment method, though. I agree that it is unfair to compare the straight setting up of a gofundme and a tip jar. If you tweak it a little im curious if you think it is still okay? For example:

If i had a donate button on my blog that took them to a gofundme instead of a paypal.me link and it happened to be for a snake, would that be acceptable?

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Originally Posted by Soord

I pretty much agree with the first part. It is a lot different with people you know and with items that you know it is for (even though it can be used for other things, you have an inherent trust in the person).

The second part I feel just gets into semantics about payment method, though. I agree that it is unfair to compare the straight setting up of a gofundme and a tip jar. If you tweak it a little im curious if you think it is still okay? For example:

If i had a donate button on my blog that took them to a gofundme instead of a paypal.me link and it happened to be for a snake, would that be acceptable?

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Hmmmm. That's a good question! I think for me, the line is drawn between receiving unsolicited donations (i.e., "If you like my blog and want to support my work, you can 'tip' me at this link") and soliciting (i.e., "I have set up this gofundme account to solicit donations towards a specific goal of getting a snake".) For some reason, that second option still doesn't feel right. I guess I just don't like the idea of asking the general public to give me money towards something that I don't need AND could get if I saved up for long enough.

On the other hand, if you ran a blog about reptiles and were blogging about your experiences with your own collection, and you set up an online donation campaign through the blog towards getting another snake, I would possibly donate to that? Because I would see it as a tip or a payment, in the sense that I enjoy your writing (or photos or vids or tutorials or whatever), so I'm giving you money to support you in continuing to do what you do. In that case, I WOULD be getting something out of it--more content on your blog!

But if your blog was just a random blog about your life, or about something completely different-- like, if you ran a blog about, IDK, basket weaving, and you were asking for donations to get a snake-- that would seem weird to me? I dunno, it's a very fine distinction, but it makes sense to me? But that could be just me.

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Originally Posted by Nellasaur

Hmmmm. That's a good question! I think for me, the line is drawn between receiving unsolicited donations (i.e., "If you like my blog and want to support my work, you can 'tip' me at this link") and soliciting (i.e., "I have set up this gofundme account to solicit donations towards a specific goal of getting a snake".) For some reason, that second option still doesn't feel right. I guess I just don't like the idea of asking the general public to give me money towards something that I don't need AND could get if I saved up for long enough.

On the other hand, if you ran a blog about reptiles and were blogging about your experiences with your own collection, and you set up an online donation campaign through the blog towards getting another snake, I would possibly donate to that? Because I would see it as a tip or a payment, in the sense that I enjoy your writing (or photos or vids or tutorials or whatever), so I'm giving you money to support you in continuing to do what you do. In that case, I WOULD be getting something out of it--more content on your blog!

But if your blog was just a random blog about your life, or about something completely different-- like, if you ran a blog about, IDK, basket weaving, and you were asking for donations to get a snake-- that would seem weird to me? I dunno, it's a very fine distinction, but it makes sense to me? But that could be just me.

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I tend to agree with this. I think this area is where the dissent stemmed from in the first place, meaning i meant the whole thing to be as non soliciting as possible (think less asking for money, more just putting it on my blog as a "support my goal if you feel like it" type thing and not soliciting for it at all. I had this vision in mind, (probably because ive never used crowdfunding in the fisrt place and dont quite know the culture) and the other persons just had a different vision of the word crowdfunding. If someone posted on facebook and twitter and tumblr every other day etc asking for money for a new snake AND it was the same situation i would totally agree that it would be a little much. I may even harbor some type of anger or annoyance toward them (which is also where i think it stemmed from. I have never actually had an experience where someone solicited for a frivolous expense so i dont necessarily come with any bias against it. I generally feel like "i wont donate but if they make their goal, cool", but i could see where the dissension can come into play) and could think they are selfish if the situation was right. I think the general problem in this specific scenerio is that everyone has an internal feeling of "selfishness" and our lines cross at different places from any type of soliciting, to only if I appreciate them soliciting, etc. There are so many different variables coming into play from how much they need it, how much they ask for it, how much they have raised, what the platform is, how they go about doing it, who is doing it, and how they promote it, etc. that it makes this a super interesting psychological and moral issue. Like given the scenario, many of us here would probably donate a small amount of money to a friend that wants a specific morph because of inherent biases we harbor that makes us trust them. If my friend is working to save up for a GHI and i KNEW they were actually saving for it and that they could support it, and also that they were actually going to buy it instead of drug or something, I would throw them a few bones if they had some sort of donation set up and i wouldnt think twice about them being selfish. Even if they didnt specifically ask me for the money. I think the general problem is the lack of trust with cf sites, and individual perceptions of the motives of the other people.

I tooootally know what you mean about a tough to describe line though. I just KNOW when someone is being selfish, its almost like a gut intuition where you know the line but it is tough for others to see and obviously others dont share the same line. :P

I genuinely enjoy giving and helping others. It makes me feel good. I could care less if it's for something they need or just for something they want. I've given to causes that were both necessary and recreational. As long as the recipient is trying to help themselves and not totally relying on others to support them it doesn't bother me one bit. I don't care if their motives are pure or not. If they're dishonest, or seeking to take advantage of other peoples kindness, that's on their conscience and karma. If you continuously give, you'll continuously have IME.

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

I genuinely enjoy giving and helping others. It makes me feel good. I could care less if it's for something they need or just for something they want. I've given to causes that were both necessary and recreational. As long as the recipient is trying to help themselves and not totally relying on others to support them it doesn't bother me one bit. I don't care if their motives are pure or not. If they're dishonest, or seeking to take advantage of other peoples kindness, that's on their conscience and karma. If you continuously give, you'll continuously have IME.

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That is a very good attitude to have if you can spare the money here and there :)

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Originally Posted by Soord

That is a very good attitude to have if you can spare the money here and there :)

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I support good causes because I like to do good things. It really does make me feel happier to be able to help others when I can. Even when we do work hard we don't always get we want. Nobody totally makes it on their own and we all need help sometimes. I'm not the wealthiest person but I am compassionate and giving by nature. If I can do anything to help my family, friends and even some strangers I'm happy to share what I can. So if my nieces call me for cash to buy concert tickets, or if my son wants more dinosaur toys, or a friend is trying to take his family on vacation, or some dude has a help me sign on the freeway exit ramp, it's all cool to me. For me it's also a matter of paying it forward. There were, and still are, some very kind people in my life who cared enough to help me when I had troubles and even when I was a troublemaker. They didn't condemn, judge, or discard me. They helped, encouraged, and motivated me. I'm a better person in large part because of them. They saw the best in me even when I didn't. If I can chip in a few coins for the greater good, or to give someone else a little more happiness in this world, count me in. I've even got $20 on that Banana Ball you're shooting for :D.

We all have received a handout in one form or another at some point in our lives. If people do not like what a go fund me campaign then they can simply not contribute. I have to say Ziggy you have a great attitude and the world would be a better place with more like you.

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

Nobody totally makes it on their own and we all need help sometimes.

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Heh, ain't that the truth? The world needs more folks like you, everyone would get a little farther if we could all pay it forward occasionally.

Electronic panhandling is still panhandling. Receiving a hand up is one thing. Handouts are a different matter all together, and asking for a hand out is actually a form of saying, "I deserve what you have more than you do."

I think the attitude that gofundme is supposed to be for needed things or emergencies like "My house burned down" is wrong. A ton of people use gofundme for all sorts of frivolous things.

A tip jar is totally different from making a gofundme asking for random people to donate money towards a new snake. And by making the gofundme, you are asking for money. But a tip jar is set up to offer extra funds for good service. In other words, your gofundme is rather like a tip jar in your coffee shop where you expect people to walk off the street to put money into the tip jar WITHOUT buying coffee or receiving any service. I don't know anyone who randomly walks into restaurants to put money into a tip jar for no reason.

The good points for your(hypothetical) gofundme is that you are being HONEST and saying "I'd like to buy this snake sooner rather than later, and if you'd like to help me out, I'd love you forever, thanks!" You're NOT setting up a gofundme and spinning some tale of woe "My parents kicked me out and I have no food or place to stay" or "My car broke down and I have no way to get to work" or whatever made-up scenario you feel would get you more donations. I do think that a lot of the donation sites are used in such a manner to collect money from good hearted people who have zero way to know it's a scam.

The bad points are that it does make you look like a "I deserve this so someone should buy it for me" instead of a responsible young adult who pays their own way. I'm not saying you ARE that way, or that you WOULD BE that way. I'm just saying how it can make you appear to outsiders. It's different when your friends help you out because they know you want a thing... that's friends offering unsolicited help. Friends do these things. It's different from a specific tip jar in a business, where customers would offer extra tip to help out a person who has given good service to them. It smacks of "I want a handout" which turns a lot of people off right away.

Myself, I rarely offer money up for "I want a new xbox" type requests. I am overly generous at times to businesses or people offering services I enjoy or even to people online who have a good blog/twitch/etc that I regularly enjoy. A good waiter/waitress gets a superb tip from me, because I feel like they'll probably get shafted by someone else and I want to give them at least a little boost as a reward for doing a good job. Same goes for other services. When a person is offering nothing at all, but wants money, I'm much less likely to offer them anything at all.

As a related subject, I'm more likely to donate money to kids doing a car wash or something than to kids standing outside a store with a bucket. Even if I don't GET the car wash... I'm more likely to just give those kids a donation because they are out there hustling and trying to EARN some more for the trip/etc instead of just sticking a hand out and asking for random strangers to fund them.

It is a little frustrating that so many people have such strong opinions about pan handlers and the homeless with out knowing very much about the population. My wife has worked with the homeless for the last six years and let me tell you what most of them has been through would crush most any person. Let's keep this about a kid who wants a snake.

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Originally Posted by Slim

Electronic panhandling is still panhandling. Receiving a hand up is one thing. Handouts are a different matter all together, and asking for a hand out is actually a form of saying, "I deserve what you have more than you do."

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See I don't necessarily think that way. I feel like asking for money is just that, asking. You aren't saying "I deserve this", but rather "if you could/want to give that'd be awesome". Very few panhandlers I've come across feel like they "deserve" any money they get. The special few that do ruin it for everyone I guess [emoji17]

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

It is a little frustrating that so many people have such strong opinions about pan handlers and the homeless with out knowing very much about the population. My wife has worked with the homeless for the last six years and let me tell you what most of them has been through would crush most any person.

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I've traveled the world in defense of this country, and I've seen, hung out with, shared beer and bread with panhandlers and homeless in at least 40 different countries and in well over 30 cities in our own country. I've dealt with burnouts, lockouts, walkouts, mentally ill and far, far too many veterans of our military. In my own experience, about 30% of those living under the stars have little to no control over their situation due to mental illness of some variety, or because of a physical malady. That leaves the other 70%, who in my opinion, are just living out a form of learned helplessness. A condition that handouts and free meals tend to exacerbate.

Yes, my opinion is strong. If that strength frustrates you, I won't say I'm sorry, but I will feel sorry for you that you are so easily frustrated.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Let's keep this about a kid who wants a snake.

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Ummm, the kid is the one who opened up the debate in the first place...

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Originally Posted by Soord

See I don't necessarily think that way. I feel like asking for money is just that, asking. You aren't saying "I deserve this", but rather "if you could/want to give that'd be awesome".

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Of course you don't :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Slim

I've traveled the world in defense of this country, and I've seen, hung out with, shared beer and bread with panhandlers and homeless in at least 40 different countries and in well over 30 cities in our own country. I've dealt with burnouts, lockouts, walkouts, mentally ill and far, far too many veterans of our military. In my own experience, about 30% of those living under the stars have little to no control over their situation due to mental illness of some variety, or because of a physical malady. That leaves the other 70%, who in my opinion, are just living out a form of learned helplessness. A condition that handouts and free meals tend to exacerbate.

Yes, my opinion is strong. If that strength frustrates you, I won't say I'm sorry, but I will feel sorry for you that you are so easily frustrated.




Ummm, the kid is the one who opened up the debate in the first place...




Of course you don't :rolleyes:

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Again, this is a lot more patronizing than I was looking for. To generalize everyone that doesn't have extreme mental or physical problems as learned helplessness is a bit naïve. The factors that go into one becoming homeless is very complex and to put 70% of all homeless people into the category of "learned helplessness" is pretty unfair.

What was meant by "let's keep it about a kid and a snake" was meant to not badmouth the homeless and to talk about the specific situation of crowdfunding a snake. Not about the homeless and not about the "kid that started the thread on the first place". Rather the hypothetical person getting a snake using crowdfunding.

I really don't need your pity and don't appreciate how arrogant this came off as. Sorry if you didn't mean it that way but it came off that way to me.

I agree that we should keep more comments to comments about the situation and not to badmouth people. The whole point of this thread was to explore the public thoughts and morality around the situation not to badmouth people less fortunate than us. -_-

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No one is badmouthing people down on their luck and those who actually really need help, the only ones badmouthed here are the people who feel entitled those who want to use the system get a free ride by getting a snake with someone else money which is SHAMEFUL at the very least.....can't help if YOU take it personally, it was your question and no matter how you spin it, how you call it, whether it's active or not, it's just YOU trying to justify the idea of getting a free ride (and you have done that a lot for someone with a fictional scenario)

Bottom line it is still what it it getting a free ride, taking the easy way, and truly if you can't afford a $200 own your own and need other to pay for it than you should not have that snake to start with, let alone have it part of a breeding project.

If you want to do it and can live with it than by all mean do so, are you expecting to be praised too? Oh and that will look good in your BIO to if one day you have your own website :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

No one is badmouthing people down on their luck and those who actually really need help, the only ones badmouthed here are the people who feel entitled those who want to use the system get a free ride by getting a snake with someone else money which is SHAMEFUL at the very least.....can't help if YOU take it personally, it was your question and no matter how you spin it, how you call it, whether it's active or not, it's just YOU trying to justify the idea of getting a free ride (and you have done that a lot for someone with a fictional scenario)

Bottom line it is still what it it getting a free ride, taking the easy way, and truly if you can't afford a $200 own your own and need other to pay for it than you should not have that snake to start with, let alone have it part of a breeding project.

If you want to do it and can live with it than by all mean do so, are you expecting to be praised too? Oh and that will look good in your BIO to if one day you have your own website :rolleyes:

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I would say calling everyone not physically or mentally disabled in need "helpless" is bad-mouthing. From what I've seen volunteering at a food pantry is that its mostly just a situation out of their control then it is really tough to get out of that situation. Especially for refugees fleeing war. I wouldn't call them helpless by any means, just that they have no options. I understand what you mean, though. You have a really strong bias toward people that don't work for money. Probably because you work very hard for your money so you are very protective of it. It is a difference of opinion we have in that I see putting out a goal and getting donations for it as not a shameful thing. The point of this post was for me to play the devil's advocate and see how your side (the side that sees using strangers money as shameful) thinks and feels in this situation. I think I mentioned that I've never crowdfunded and had no plans to do it it is just alien to me to how people can think it's shameful to put up something saying "trying to get a beautiful snake, donate here to help if you want".

For what it's worth I have two websites already and I work as a computer engineer for a healthcare company contracted by the DoD. I also am in the recruiting process of Google so I may or may not be in Silicone Valley soon in case anyone was curious about me. To get the snake I'd have to wait like another 2 weeks for paycheck, I purposely didn't mention this because I didn't want it to make a difference with reasoning how fast I could make the 300 and wanted to see if that was a reason for someone's thoughts. This whole scenario started as a joke because I wanted a couple of cool snakes at the same time and it escalated way more than I could have imagined.

Some final thoughts I have are that people get surprisingly polarized about this situation. I've asked many people this question since this even happened and it's split pretty evenly over people that think it's fine and people that think it's the most selfish thing since Judas. Another surprising thing is the amount of assumptions people make about others they have never met. From their husbandry (yes I'm still salty) to their experiences to their age to how smart come off as based off a difference of opinion in a definition about what is begging and what isn't and preconceived notions about what begging means to them. I've decided that after a few days of this I'm pretty tired of talking about it and extra tired of ageism that is starting to happen, so I doubt I'll respond anymore. Feel free to keep talking if you want I'll probably throw some thanks here and there if I agree. Also feel free to message if you think it's an interesting topic or want to discuss morals more (as long as you stay civil).

In the end, donate how you want [emoji14] be careful about asking for things cause some people get pissed. And I hope this didn't cause too many people to hate me.

P.S. I felt kinda bad for even fictionally taking money based off some of these comments so I donated some money to my local zoo. [emoji6]

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Originally Posted by Soord

The factors that go into one becoming homeless is very complex and to put 70% of all homeless people into the category of "learned helplessness" is pretty unfair.

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Speaking as one who has been homeless, and within the last 4 years (a story for another time), I understand the complexities quite well. Learned helplessness does not put people out of doors, but if you think it's not a factor in keeping many of them there, you Sir, are the naïve one.

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Originally Posted by Soord

The whole point of this thread was to explore the public thoughts and morality around the situation not to badmouth people less fortunate than us.

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Well, you got your wish. I'm sorry you don't like or agree, or maybe even understand the results of the public thoughts contained here in. I never bad mouthed anyone. And as I've stated, I've been homeless, and through the mental health system. I may not be an expert, but I do have experience.

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Originally Posted by Soord

I wouldn't call them helpless by any means, just that they have no options.

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I hope that with time and wisdom, you'll come to understand that everyone has options. Sometimes none of the options are appealing, but everyone has them.

Just because 70% don't have recognized or documented mental disability doesn't mean laziness is keeping them from rejoining society. As with many homeless veterans, whom most our country has turned their backs on, trauma based mental illness like ptsd does not allow them to re-enter society. There are many other factors like past criminal transgressions and addiction. The fact that you base your opinion on anecdotal evidence instead of really trying to understand the factors says a lot about said opinion. What frustrates me is we will never be able fix this problem, for veterans and civilians alike, with a good number of people sharing your uniformed opinion. I respect that you have served our country and thank you for your service, but you need to realize in this matter you are no expert. I have met and talked with numerous military personel, but I do not claim to know anything about being a soldier.

Learned helplessness is, in a way, a form of PTSD, yes? When you've been punished for trying so often that you just stop trying because there's no point? I believe that's the scientific definition anyway, unless we're talking about something else. I guess my reaction to somone saying that someone else is experiencing learned helplessness is not "OMG, how dare you say they choose to be this way!" because learned helplessness is not chosen.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

As with many homeless veterans, whom most our country has turned their backs on, trauma based mental illness like ptsd does not allow them to re-enter society. There are many other factors like past criminal transgressions and addiction. What frustrates me is we will never be able fix this problem, for veterans and civilians alike

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This is a classic example of how you are part of the problem, because you refuse to accept that there can be a solution...

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

The fact that you base your opinion on anecdotal evidence instead of really trying to understand the factors says a lot about said opinion....you need to realize in this matter you are no expert.

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Da Hell? Did you freakin' miss the part where I freakin' explained to you that I have been recently homeless, and have spent extended periods of time in the VA's freakin' mental health system?

And while that does not make me an expert, as you say, I personally believe that I know one hell of a lot more about it than you do, so tell me one more freakin' time I don't know what I'm talking about then go back to your academic study of the freakin' problem, but waste my time no more.

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Originally Posted by Willowy

Learned helplessness is, in a way, a form of PTSD, yes?

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That would be splitting a very fine hair...

Learned helplessness is behavior typical of an organism (human or animal) that has endured repeated painful or otherwise aversive stimuli which it was unable to escape or avoid. After such experience, the organism often fails to learn escape or avoidance in new situations where such behavior would be effective. In other words, the organism seems to have learned that it is helpless in aversive situations, that it has lost control, and so it gives up trying.

Posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a mental disorder that can develop after a person is exposed to a traumatic event, such as sexual assault, warfare, traffic collisions, or other threats. Symptoms may include disturbing thoughts, feelings, or dreams related to the events, mental or physical distress to trauma-related cues, attempts to avoid trauma-related cues, and alterations in how a person thinks and feels.

Yes. . .but it's not a thing where you can just say, "welp, time to not feel helpless about everything, guess I'll choose to have some self-confidence and lead a typical middle-class existence now". It's a mental/emotional illness that requires just as much professional help as any other mental/emotional illness. The pathetic state of mental and emotional health care in this country is mostly responsible for a lot of it, I'd have to say.

Um using your own personal experience to describe a problem that effects million of people is exactly the definition of anecdotal evidence. No I am not an expert but my wife who has a Masters in social work and has worked with the homeless population in different facets is. So do I think that I am more informed than you? Yes, absolutely. I will let my wife and her numerous veteran clients know that you think we are the problem.

Yepper, because living a thing is exactly like reading about a thing...or hearing about it from your wife.

In my own humble opinion, starting a fundraiser like this is no issue.

There's no obligation to donate, no one's forcing anyone. Its a "hey, I'm planning a thing and some funds to help me would be nice, if you want to help me, that would be great! Thank you!". Easy breezy, you can donate if you want to, if you don't --- then you don't! That's not helping someone in need, it's being nice to a stranger, in a "pay it forward" manner.
The stranger at the coffee shop who spilled his coffee doesn't NEED the money either, and isn't homeless, but it's still a nice gesture of me to buy him a new coffee anyway bc I have the spare pocket money and a good day. Call it handouts if you wish, I call it voluntarily being nice so perhaps next chance the person pays it forward. Karma, if you wish.

As long as you don't make up some fake bullcrap story about how much you neeeeed the money to live, and how your mother is dying and needs medicine, it's all chill in my own moral views. Just make sure that in the end you have enough funds, however you got them, to properly care for the animal in the long run.

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