Clutch ID help!

The little ones have shed out and are ready for their first meal. I grabbed some quick shots for the records and to see if I can get some help with IDing the morphs. Pairing was my 0.1 Super Black Pastel to my 1.0 Mojave Yellow Belly. I know what I see, but won't taint the results. Thanks in advance.

1.
http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/p...psuccrnfjw.jpg

2.
http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/p...psfzrkb0t4.jpg

3.
http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/p...psklxh25d2.jpg

4.
http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/p...pssnjgvntl.jpg

5.
http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/p...psepyfnmpl.jpg

Dave

Are they all 3 gene? Beautiful. I think there is yb in them. Lovely combo man

Yowzah!! I *love* that first one!

All of them are fantastic! I'm not really sure what Yellowbelly does to Black Mojo, but they all look like Black Mojo to me. The first two seem a little different from the other three, but I can't really say what would cause that. The patterning looks smaller and tighter, with the other three having a larger, more open patterning, but maybe that's just my eyes. When I look at pictures of Black Pastel Yellow Belly, they all look very red, and none of these do - but that could just be changes that come with age. The Yellow Belly does seem to break up the patterning even more, in the photos I've seen, but again that's just for Black Pastel Yellow Belly, rather than with Mojave in there. I'm no good at judging morphs - I just know what I look at and like!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by piedlover79

Yowzah!! I *love* that first one!

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That one is getting a lot of attention. Tex spent some "quality time" with Maine early on but I never saw any locks. Not to say it didn't happen. There were together for 3 days at a time. I can't see anything that says Het Pied, but is that a faint hint of a ring? I don't know, but I have to wonder as doubtful as it is. Most likely wishful thinking.

Dave

Definitely all of them are black pastel mojave because i have one black pastel mojave fire that looks exactly like them
im not sure about the yellowbelly gene because you have to take a close look to notice the yellowbelly gene

either way they are beautiful!

They are all beautiful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the comments on the little ones. Anyone else care to put forth an opinion on their makeup?

Dave

I'm willing to bet 1 2 and 5 are packing yellow belly

Great looking clutch Dave. I've got a lot of YB and even a Black Pastel YB but can't tell for sure. I really like 1 and 2. Congrats and welcome back to breeding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bigfish1975

Great looking clutch Dave. I've got a lot of YB and even a Black Pastel YB but can't tell for sure. I really like 1 and 2. Congrats and welcome back to breeding.

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Thanks Mike!

Dave

So just an update and a bit of info that I missed until today. Worms 1 and 4, which I suspect are carrying the YB gene also exhibit a two toned eye. The other 3 are dark/black. Is this a marker? I don't know so any info would be appreciated. All taken in though I'm really happy with the clutch. Two ate day before yesterday and the odds gods were really in my favor with not a single gene among them.

Dave

congrats again Dave! they all look really great!

i love hatchling #1's ringer. i suspect hatchlings #4 is YB. it looks the most different from the rest of the clutch. it's dorsal is less solid and it doesn't have the little dot on the eyestripe. but u might be right about the both #1 & #4 in regard to their eyes. both Mojave and YB are BEL's - tho one is Blue and the other is black, therefore it could be a clash of the genes.

they all look great, especially those first two :O

I am amazed at all of them with the dorsal striping! They are really stunning. Congrats. I can't call who is what though.

Can't help with the morph ID but....

Wow! :O Beautiful clutch:gj:

Turns out worms 1,2, and 5 are 0.1. 3 and 4 are 1.0. All between 44 and 59 grams. Thanks for those that gave opinions. Based upon what I see and what I've gotten here and by PM and email I'm going with 1 and 4 as Black Pastel Mojave Yellow Belly. The other three are Black Mojos. Mostly based upon eye color, dorsal stripe and a bit of pixelation on the lateral line where it fades to cream. Not bad for my first clutch in over 20 years! I think I'm going to hold back #4 and put him with my Lesser Huffman at some point. Silver snakes are just too tempting not to give it a shot.

Best,

Dave

i'm very tempted to inquire about purchasing #1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AKA Dave

Turns out worms 1,2, and 5 are 0.1. 3 and 4 are 1.0. All between 44 and 59 grams. Thanks for those that gave opinions. Based upon what I see and what I've gotten here and by PM and email I'm going with 1 and 4 as Black Pastel Mojave Yellow Belly. The other three are Black Mojos. Mostly based upon eye color, dorsal stripe and a bit of pixelation on the lateral line where it fades to cream. Not bad for my first clutch in over 20 years! I think I'm going to hold back #4 and put him with my Lesser Huffman at some point. Silver snakes are just too tempting not to give it a shot.

Best,

Dave

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I'd say you got a pretty amazing batch of squirmy little wiggles there, Dave. I still can't pick out a difference between 1 and 4 from the other three - but I imagine it's easier when you're there in person handling and looking at them! I looked all over trying to find photos of Black Mojo Yellowbellies, but came up utterly dry. Will you be submitting photos to WoBP? They don't appear to have any of the combination, either.

They're listed as Yellowbelly Mojave Black Pastel.

Dave

In 2013 I hatched out a couple of Black Magics.
Black Magics can vary quite a bit. At first glance it seems like all of them are triple genes, but 1 and 2 are incredible. I think the color of these hatchlings will be your deciding factor. I think 1 and 2 are without a doubt triple genes, the rest seem to be the same color as 1 and 2. If any of them are only Black Magics, I'd say number 4 is your best candidate. Maybe only 1 and 2 are the only triple genes. If 3,4, and 5 are not triple genes, they're the best Black Magics I've ever seen. I think once they have a couple meals and shed one or two more times it'll be easier to tell. I'm not 100% about this, so don't hang me out to dry if I'm wrong. Maybe I'd have a different opinion if I saw them in person or in different light. Here's some pics to help you out, if you need me to dig up some more old pics, I will.
Congrats!!! On such an awesome clutch and welcome back.


http://s6.postimg.org/d3piok5ox/SAM_1419.jpg

http://s6.postimg.org/lndi023f5/SAM_2165.jpg

http://s6.postimg.org/twpdegx5d/SAM_1879.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AKA Dave

They're listed as Yellowbelly Mojave Black Pastel.

Dave

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Keep in mind that there are several mislabeled pics on WOBP.

Well Josh, you just sent me back to the land of "Uh....". :) These were shot in daylight with a daylight balanced flash so the colors are true. Now, when it comes to color making you think they all might be triples are you looking at the yellow/orange of the stripe compared to the side patterns? If so, that caught my attention as well early on. I dismissed it though believing there was no way that I could be that lucky with this clutch. Now looking at your Black Mojo pics I have to wonder about that again. There is such a difference in that stripe. I'm having to learn a lot on the fly about morphs which is why I am not sure how the YB gene would present in this case. Damn those subtle genetics! And yeah, WOBP was little help with this.

In your opinion, what am I looking for with the color? Am I on target with the stripe compared to the side markings?

Dave

Number 1 and 2 are Gorgeous

I hatched 3 Black Magics in 2013 and they all looked slightly different in pattern but they were all the same color. All the Black Magics I've seen are the very close in color as well. Their patterns can have a lot of "donuts" on their side, or more of a linear pattern that just looks like squiggly lines on their sides. Your 4 is the only one with relatively any donuts, it also has a slightly different or more defined "eye stripe" that runs down the side of the head and through the eye.

My Black Magics had a much more defined eye stripe than any of yours, but there's even a variety between the two in my pics. The male has the more linear pattern with a less defined eye stripe. The female has a lot of donuts with a more defined eye stripe.

I'd say 1 and 2 are triples, and 3 and 5 don't look that much different than 1 and 2, and 4 doesn't really look different enough from the rest for me to not be the same as 3 and 5.

All your hatchlings look much more extreme than mine, and any other Black Magics I've seen. In the pics they all look to be the same color as each other. Do they all look the same color in person? If they're all very close in color than I'd be led to believe you have 5 triple genes. Take some pics of all 5 of them together, maybe a couple different backgrounds as well.
When you hatch 5 of something, your going to see some variations, and that might be what we're seeing. Again, I'm not 100% about this at the moment, I'd like to see more pics.

Male
http://s6.postimg.org/bpbhfel8x/SAM_1890.jpg

http://s6.postimg.org/y2j827m6p/SAM_1888.jpg

Female
http://s6.postimg.org/v9q0i6lu9/SAM_1808.jpg

http://s6.postimg.org/hhblmjv2p/SAM_1712.jpg

http://s6.postimg.org/ve5wfm8y9/SAM_1716.jpg

OK. So I managed to grab a couple of pictures of all of them together. I thought herding cats was hard, this was ridiculous!

White background. Colors are true. Let me know if you need me to ID each hatchling.

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps3ke782up.jpg

On black PVC. They were having none of it so I apologize for the motion blur. Colors screwed a bit light due to the black background.

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/p...psnvbrypuh.jpg

Thanks for the assist on this Josh. It's a head scratcher.

Dave

Updated Picture of #3. Had the wrong picture in there.

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/p...psbkqjz4e9.jpg

He's another one without a dot behind the eye stripe. Maybe that's a clue. Josh, if your hunch holds true that 1 and 2 are triples, then it makes sense that 3 and 4 are not and 5 is. I'll wait till you weigh in on the other pics I just posted prior to this.

Dave

I was just noticing today that my black widow male sort of has that dot - but it's connected to the stripe, rather than being separate. He just a basic Black Widow though, as far as I know - Black Pastel, Pastel, Spider.

Edit - blurry, but a photo.

http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/...psshme0jnh.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caspian

I was just noticing today that my black widow male sort of has that dot - but it's connected to the stripe, rather than being separate. He just a basic Black Widow though, as far as I know - Black Pastel, Pastel, Spider.

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Actually, after looking at that without my brain being baked in Nevada heat, there's no resemblance whatsoever. I do see that dot on some of the Black Mojos on WoBP, but I wasn't aware that their images aren't always right.

Ok, so in your original pics, 3 was another pic of 5.
The only one that looks different than the rest is 4, but they still look the same color, which is what's throwing me off. I'm going to ask you to post one more pic, a pic of the Mojave YB parent. If I cant figure this out, I'll have to get a second opinion from someone with more experience with this combo.
Head scratcher for sure. One thing is for sure, all of them are spectacular!!!

Those pictures I have readily available.

Here is a shot of Tex in all her chubby pre lay glory. I was doing a deep clean on her enclosure and snapped a pic while I had her out.

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/p...psem1jyogl.jpg

This is the sire. He's a 2013.

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/p...pskd6d6czv.jpg

If you want different angles or anything let me know. I agree with you though, total head scratcher.

Dave

Well I think it's official. They're 3 gene. I showed pictures to the guy I got Grif from, another breeder in NC, and a good friend of mine and breeder just saw them in person. All of them said the same thing. The one that saw them in person did not even hesitate, only adding that they're prettier in person. And I though I took good pictures! Now here's the fun part. Without knowing anything about Maine, who Tex spent time with but I never saw any locks, pointed out the ringer on #1 and a few checkered patterns on a couple of others. Now, I can never guarantee that this is some kind of snake soup that turned out 3 gene snakes that are het Pied, but at least #1 most likely is. All I know is I am keeping one of the 1.0s for myself, and am very happy with that. Thanks to all of you that weighed in and gave your opinions. I think it really did lead me down the right path to figuring out what they are. I still can't believe the odds gods blessed me like this!

Dave

Congratulations, Dave!