Ranco etc burned out?

I just got home and went into my reptile room to have 62 degree temps and a burning smell. The burning smell was coming from my ranco etc thermostat that was controlling my oil-filled space heater. The thermostat itself still shows the temps of the room but will no longer control the heater. I took the thermostat off the wall and it left black burn marks, i then unplugged the thermostat and now have my heater on low and have to manually turn it on and off. Can anyone let me know what happened and why? P.s the thermostat is less than a year old.

Sounds like said heater was pulling more current than said ranco can handle.

Sent from my LG-V500 using Tapatalk

Those thermostats are meant to control thngs lk heat tape or radient panels... Not those types of heaters..unless ofcourse ranco manual says otherwise. Be glad u didnt burn your house down.

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What model was it?

Ranco are not thermostat that were originally designed to control heat panels or heat tape, they are house thermostat and are commonly used by herpers even sold to control oil filled heater (wired especially for this purpose) and sold to control other heating devices as well.

The issue can be the wattage, which is something that always need to be check with any T-stat and heat source.

Ranco however also sometimes fail which is why like any T-stat they should be doubled with another t-stat as a safeguard.

I have had one fail on me and it was not because of the wattage http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ight=Heat+tape

I believe Mark has had issues with them too.



Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

What model was it?

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Ranco ETC-111000-000 prewired with a heavy duty wire(15amps/1800watts).

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

Those thermostats are meant to control thngs lk heat tape or radient panels... Not those types of heaters..unless ofcourse ranco manual says otherwise. Be glad u didnt burn your house down.

Sent from my LG-V500 using Tapatalk

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They are meant to control oil heaters, or at least that what the site i bought it from said.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Ranco are not thermostat that were originally designed to control heat panels or heat tape, they are house thermostat and are commonly used by herpers even sold to control oil filled heater (wired especially for this purpose) and sold to control other heating devices as well.

The issue can be the wattage, which is something that always need to be check with any T-stat and heat source.

Ranco however also sometimes fail which is why like any T-stat they should be doubled with another t-stat as a safeguard.

I have had one fail on me and it was not because of the wattage http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ight=Heat+tape

I believe Mark has had issues with them too.



Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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What t-stat do you recommend for a oil-filled heater?

I started off with Ranco thermostats and I would never buy another one. I went through at least six that either burned out or started having problems within a couple years of purchase. I now use Helix and Herpstat thermostats and I've never had an issue. I only use them on racks though.

Herpstat for the win!! :gj:

Are johnson t-stats any good?

Are johnson t-stats better/more reliable than rancos? If not what t-stat do you recommend for a oil-filled space heater?

Spyder robotics now has a room thermostat that is good for your situation. I think it needs a wall thermostat too though. Check their site.

I've had several Ranco's fail on me and I've lost animals because of it. I won't ever buy another one either.

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Originally Posted by Yodawagon

Spyder robotics now has a room thermostat that is good for your situation. I think it needs a wall thermostat too though. Check their site.

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Wow, thanks im pretty sure thats exactly what i need.

- - - Updated - - -

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I've had several Ranco's fail on me and I've lost animals because of it. I won't ever buy another one either.

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Never again will i touch a ranco!

Here is my 2 cents:

There is some confusion about ranco or any relay thermostat. I myself had to do quite a bit of research as we have some products entering this field. Here is a manual for the Ranco I found on line:

http://controltrends.org/wp-content/.../Ranco-ETC.pdf

The heating used with reptiles is resistive heating. That is what the oil filled heater is as well. You can see from this manual that the relay used is rated at 9.8 amps resistive which is 1176 watts (9.8 amps x 120 volts). So in this case a oil filled heater on high is more than the spec of the device. Medium should be fine as most of those heaters draw about 900 watts on medium.

Now the bigger story:
When the relay disengages it makes a huge arc across the contacts. I have run tests with relays doing this and each cycle you are wearing a little of the relay at a time and building up carbon on the contacts which increases resistance inline. Many of these relays are only rated at 30-50K operations resistive. So lets say your heating situation turns on the heater for 5 minutes and then cools for 5 minutes. Your cycle time is ten minutes. That is 144 cycles a day or 52,560 cycles per year. So in one years time you have used up rated life of those relays. High endurance relays last 100K cycles. So maybe 2 years life. Unfortunately relay based control is the best value for controlling oil filled heaters but you have to consider your control device as a consumable. BTW relays have two failure states. The relay can fail off (as in too high resistance due to carbon build up on the contacts) or it can fail on (high current welding of contacts together).

Solid state control is possible instead of relay control which does have the advantage of proportional control and no contacts to wear out but the problem is it generates alot of heat in the parts. I experimented with a couple of designs with aluminum enclosures using the whole enclosure as the heat sink and 1500 watts still got the enclosure up to a uncomfortable to the touch temp. Plus when all was said and done it would have been in the $250ish range for a single high output proportional thermostat which didn't seem sellable considering oil filled heater control isn't a big part of the market. :)

You can do some things to help prolong the life of a relay base thermostat. If the room is cold and you have excessive cycling consider using another oil filled heater on low as supplimental full time heat. Then the thermostat controlled one would be adding the final bump to your target temp. Or leave a few lights on in the room. You get the idea. The longer the periods are of on/off times the longer your relay thermostat life will be.

The power module we just came out with is also a consumable. The big advantage with it over a ranco is the ability to use the week scheduling for different temps and also because people can connect it to a internet based home thermostat so they can checkup on room temps.

We do have another full fledged thermostat coming out later this year for this purpose. This model has active line sensing and attempts to break the connection when the voltage in the ac sine wave is low which minimizes the arc. In my testing this took endurance relays that were shot at 100K and pushed them well above 300K+ and they were still in great condition. So the life will be much longer. We are also backing it with a second safety relay like in our other products plus many of the other advanced features of Herpstats. We are waiting for our parts supplies to catch up with the Herpstat 6 demand and then we will be working on the launch of that product.

So that is the skinny on relay based control. Hope that helps some.

Dion Brewington
Owner, Spyder Robotics

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spyderrobotics

Here is my 2 cents:

There is some confusion about ranco or any relay thermostat. I myself had to do quite a bit of research as we have some products entering this field. Here is a manual for the Ranco I found on line:

http://controltrends.org/wp-content/.../Ranco-ETC.pdf

The heating used with reptiles is resistive heating. That is what the oil filled heater is as well. You can see from this manual that the relay used is rated at 9.8 amps resistive which is 1176 watts (9.8 amps x 120 volts). So in this case a oil filled heater on high is more than the spec of the device. Medium should be fine as most of those heaters draw about 900 watts on medium.

Now the bigger story:
When the relay disengages it makes a huge arc across the contacts. I have run tests with relays doing this and each cycle you are wearing a little of the relay at a time and building up carbon on the contacts which increases resistance inline. Many of these relays are only rated at 30-50K operations resistive. So lets say your heating situation turns on the heater for 5 minutes and then cools for 5 minutes. Your cycle time is ten minutes. That is 144 cycles a day or 52,560 cycles per year. So in one years time you have used up rated life of those relays. High endurance relays last 100K cycles. So maybe 2 years life. Unfortunately relay based control is the best value for controlling oil filled heaters but you have to consider your control device as a consumable. BTW relays have two failure states. The relay can fail off (as in too high resistance due to carbon build up on the contacts) or it can fail on (high current welding of contacts together).

Solid state control is possible instead of relay control which does have the advantage of proportional control and no contacts to wear out but the problem is it generates alot of heat in the parts. I experimented with a couple of designs with aluminum enclosures using the whole enclosure as the heat sink and 1500 watts still got the enclosure up to a uncomfortable to the touch temp. Plus when all was said and done it would have been in the $250ish range for a single high output proportional thermostat which didn't seem sellable considering oil filled heater control isn't a big part of the market. :)

You can do some things to help prolong the life of a relay base thermostat. If the room is cold and you have excessive cycling consider using another oil filled heater on low as supplimental full time heat. Then the thermostat controlled one would be adding the final bump to your target temp. Or leave a few lights on in the room. You get the idea. The longer the periods are of on/off times the longer your relay thermostat life will be.

The power module we just came out with is also a consumable. The big advantage with it over a ranco is the ability to use the week scheduling for different temps and also because people can connect it to a internet based home thermostat so they can checkup on room temps.

We do have another full fledged thermostat coming out later this year for this purpose. This model has active line sensing and attempts to break the connection when the voltage in the ac sine wave is low which minimizes the arc. In my testing this took endurance relays that were shot at 100K and pushed them well above 300K+ and they were still in great condition. So the life will be much longer. We are also backing it with a second safety relay like in our other products plus many of the other advanced features of Herpstats. We are waiting for our parts supplies to catch up with the Herpstat 6 demand and then we will be working on the launch of that product.

So that is the skinny on relay based control. Hope that helps some.

Dion Brewington
Owner, Spyder Robotics

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Until your new thermostat launches will the power module fit my needs?

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Originally Posted by highqualityballz

Until your new thermostat launches will the power module fit my needs?

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The power module will run a oil filled heater and was designed for that purpose. You will need to purchase a standard home thermostat and thermostat wire to connect the two from a local home improvement store. The wiring is fairly easy and the wiring instructions will be included with the home thermostat. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spyderrobotics

Here is my 2 cents:


Now the bigger story:
When the relay disengages it makes a huge arc across the contacts. I have run tests with relays doing this and each cycle you are wearing a little of the relay at a time and building up carbon on the contacts which increases resistance inline.

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Is this why it kept tripping my GFI? Would a proportional thermostat work with a GFI outlet?

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Is this why it kept tripping my GFI? Would a proportional thermostat work with a GFI outlet?

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This very well could be. Proportional thermostats usually work fine with GFI's. I've only come across one or two cases where there was an issue. If I remember right the person replaced the GFI with a new one of the same model and then it was fine. So there may be some tolerance differences. If you weren't already I would use a surge protector with a 2000+ joule rating in between the thermostat and wall outlet. The protectors have a mov cap that I suspect works both ways and may keep the relay arc from tripping the GFI.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spyderrobotics

This very well could be. Proportional thermostats usually work fine with GFI's. I've only come across one or two cases where there was an issue. If I remember right the person replaced the GFI with a new one of the same model and then it was fine. So there may be some tolerance differences. If you weren't already I would use a surge protector with a 2000+ joule rating in between the thermostat and wall outlet. The protectors have a mov cap that I suspect works both ways and may keep the relay arc from tripping the GFI.

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Thanks, I didn't even think of a surge protector. That's a good idea.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Thanks, I didn't even think of a surge protector.

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Some Circuit Interrupters completely ignore arcing. Others are for detecting arcs - interrupting power if an arc is detected. No valid recommendation can exist without first defining what type breaker exists.

Same applies to a surge protector. It does nothing for that anomaly - does not even claim to. But many only know all good things solve all bad problems. Junk science reasoning. Most buy power strip protectors that are so tiny as to not even protect from near zero surges only because others say it is in the list of good things.

Start with that circuit breaker. Is it a GFCI or an AFCI? Arcing in a switch is often averted with a snubber. Did they include a snubber inside that design? Line filter would go a long way into averting intermittent AFCI trips. Numerous options exist AFTER the anomaly is first defined. That protector is not one. It does nothing until 120 volts well exceeds 330 volts. A 330+ volt transient anomaly does not trip breakers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

Some Circuit Interrupters completely ignore arcing. Others are for detecting arcs - interrupting power if an arc is detected. No valid recommendation can exist without first defining what type breaker exists.

Same applies to a surge protector. It does nothing for that anomaly - does not even claim to. But many only know all good things solve all bad problems. Junk science reasoning. Most buy power strip protectors that are so tiny as to not even protect from near zero surges only because others say it is in the list of good things.

Start with that circuit breaker. Is it a GFCI or an AFCI? Arcing in a switch is often averted with a snubber. Did they include a snubber inside that design? Line filter would go a long way into averting intermittent AFCI trips. Numerous options exist AFTER the anomaly is first defined. That protector is not one. It does nothing until 120 volts well exceeds 330 volts. A 330+ volt transient anomaly does not trip breakers.

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From the thermostats circuits I have seen a snubber is not used. I experimented with many snubber designs to minimize relay arc and few showed any promise. From what I read the GFCI's work by sensing a imbalance between hot and neutral. I wonder if the relay arc is enough to upset that. The surge protector may not be the answer but something easy enough to test. I am not sure if it would provide any filtering or not. Line filter is a good solution but will also be costly. Zero crossing has worked the best in my testing and while a mechanical relay timing is not perfect you can still greatly minimize spark and I suspect much less likely to trip the gfci.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spyderrobotics

From what I read the GFCI's work by sensing a imbalance between hot and neutral. I wonder if the relay arc is enough to upset that.

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Arcing does not create an imbalance. But again, is it a GFCI or an AFCI? AFCI would assume arcing is a failed extension cord - cut off power.

Semiconductor switching would eliminate arcing using techniques such as switching on zero crossing (so as to not create excessive heat). Also necessary are numbers for that heater and for switch rating. Switches that cut off more than 1 amp will arc. But a switch is designed to minimize that arc and to not cause contact damage. Snubbing will not eliminate the arc - but will significantly reduce destructive effects.

If a GFCI trips simultaneously with arcing, then current is going somewhere else - where it should not be going. GFCI would be tripping as designed; reporting a potential human safety issue.

Line filters are expensive? What is expensive - a number required?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...68rtmX327KQOjg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

Arcing does not create an imbalance. But again, is it a GFCI or an AFCI? AFCI would assume arcing is a failed extension cord - cut off power.

Semiconductor switching would eliminate arcing using techniques such as switching on zero crossing (so as to not create excessive heat). Also necessary are numbers for that heater and for switch rating. Switches that cut off more than 1 amp will arc. But a switch is designed to minimize that arc and to not cause contact damage. Snubbing will not eliminate the arc - but will significantly reduce destructive effects.

If a GFCI trips simultaneously with arcing, then current is going somewhere else - where it should not be going. GFCI would be tripping as designed; reporting a potential human safety issue.

Line filters are expensive? What is expensive - a number required?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...68rtmX327KQOjg

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Semiconductor switching of course is best solution but has its own problems with heat output and is not something that can be added to correct the problem with the thermostat they already have.

Usually arcing occurs when the contacts are broken so that would be good info to know. If it trips during release (when the power is turned off to the heat).

Your link to line filters is for components and not a plug in solution. I was thinking more towards line conditioners that would be a plug in solution and may have built in line filters and such.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spyderrobotics

Semiconductor switching of course is best solution but has its own problems with heat output and is not something that can be added to correct the problem with the thermostat they already have. ...
Your link to line filters is for components and not a plug in solution. I was thinking more towards line conditioners that would be a plug in solution and may have built in line filters and such.

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If semiconductor heat is so problematic, then dimmer switches would even be hotter. Semiconductor switching is problematic when a switch is not properly designed. For example, if a switch uses a transistor, then heat can be problematic. Other semiconductor solutions (as found in dimmer switches) exist.

For example, that thermostat can drive a box containing a better switch (ie relay); that does not arc. A thermostat that conducts well less than 1 amp (to power that box) should not arc.

Retail price of filters is provided. Manufacturers box same filters (purchased at wholesale prices) and add a plug and receptacle. Then it sells at profit for a similar price. Demonstrated are filters (and costs) found inside filtered appliances and inside plug-in filters. Or build one. So again, a question. What number defines expensive?

Other numbers. What is an electrical specification for that thermostat switch? What numbers are for a heater. Better answers exist when numbers are provided. No numbers often results in answers that are only speculation or hearsay. And may even explain a previously discussed 'near fire'.

What about a surge protector with a built in a gfci? Im not sure if my outlet is gfci protected but if its not can this be the reason it burned out?

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Originally Posted by highqualityballz

What about a surge protector with a built in a gfci?

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Never saw a surge protector with a GFCI. What is this item - manufacturer name and model number - that addresses both anomalies?

GFCI is about not killing humans (or pets). It does nothing else.

When a GFCI does not see a same current coming back as is going out, then it assumes a human is being killed. So it cuts off power using an 'open the switch' technique that every appliance (using a mechanical or semiconductor switch) and wall switch use to power off. Power off (expected or unexpected) does not damage any appliance.

A surge protector and GFCI have nothing in common other than electricity. These are completely different devices for completely different and unrelated anomalies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

Never saw a surge protector with a GFCI. What is this item - manufacturer name and model number - that addresses both anomalies?

GFCI is about not killing humans (or pets). It does nothing else.

When a GFCI does not see a same current coming back as is going out, then it assumes a human is being killed. So it cuts off power using an 'open the switch' technique that every appliance (using a mechanical or semiconductor switch) and wall switch use to power off. Power off (expected or unexpected) does not damage any appliance.

A surge protector and GFCI have nothing in common other than electricity. These are completely different devices for completely different and unrelated anomalies.

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So just a regular surge protector could of prevented this? Gfci surge protectors do exist there are a bunch of diffrent brands google it.

So, heres a question..if one is going to use those oil filled heaters..why not skip the xtra expense of said reptile controllers and making sure the draw isnt too much for said equipment... And just buy one of the newer oil heaters that have its own thermostat? I have a couple of them, and they work great, only I dont have them hooked up in the manner others do to other thermostats.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by highqualityballz

Gfci surge protectors do exist there are a bunch of diffrent brands google it.

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Do they? A GFCI does not do surge protection. And a surge protector does not protect human life. Those are completely different devices for completely different anomalies.

Googling also says exactly what I have posted.

This is difficult for some because many urban myths exist due to hearsay. Unlearning what is first believed is hard. Best is to always assume any recommendation provided without perspective (ie specification numbers) is a lie. Then urban myths are not believed. Where is any number that says a GFCI is also a surge protector? No numbers is a classic symptom of a scam.

One can let others do numbers for them as Jeanne recommends. Simply buy an oil filled heater with a thermostat already selected only for that heater - that also has a UL listing (which is essential for human safety).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

If semiconductor heat is so problematic, then dimmer switches would even be hotter. Semiconductor switching is problematic when a switch is not properly designed. For example, if a switch uses a transistor, then heat can be problematic. Other semiconductor solutions (as found in dimmer switches) exist.

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Dimmers use triacs same as proportional thermostats but dimmers are most commonly 600 watts and lower. They are also rarely at full load. They sink heat to the metal frame of the switch in most cases. There is small resistance across a triac and hence heat. It is problematic and has to be dealt with via heatsink and airflow. The higher the wattage the more heat but not linear. I have extensive knowledge and testing in this area. Mosfets have lower on resistance but then in most circuits AC is converted to DC to use the mosfet and then you have the voltage drop/resistance across the diode bridge which then also creates alot of heat. No free rides there. Ideally a trigger circuit using a double mosfet in reverse to each other would be the best solution but it is costly. And when I say costly I mean more than what can be done in other methods that are acceptable. Yes, a $5-$10 additional cost doesn't seem like much but when you add additional labor, complexity, markups, and so forth there is always a balance to be had. So I guess you have to be clear whether you are talking about a one off solution to solve a individuals issue or something that is a production unit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

So, heres a question..if one is going to use those oil filled heaters..why not skip the xtra expense of said reptile controllers and making sure the draw isnt too much for said equipment... And just buy one of the newer oil heaters that have its own thermostat? I have a couple of them, and they work great, only I dont have them hooked up in the manner others do to other thermostats.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

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One reason is because the built in thermostat is close to the heat source so you set at a temp but 10 feet across the room its a different temp. So the advantage is you can put the sensing probe where you want to control temp. Also ideally you get better reliability than the built in thermostat but obviously in the case of the failed ranco that didn't happen. Seperate thermostats may offer additional features such as alarms and safety shutdowns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

Do they? A GFCI does not do surge protection. And a surge protector does not protect human life. Those are completely different devices for completely different anomalies.

Googling also says exactly what I have posted.

This is difficult for some because many urban myths exist due to hearsay. Unlearning what is first believed is hard. Best is to always assume any recommendation provided without perspective (ie specification numbers) is a lie. Then urban myths are not believed. Where is any number that says a GFCI is also a surge protector? No numbers is a classic symptom of a scam.

One can let others do numbers for them as Jeanne recommends. Simply buy an oil filled heater with a thermostat already selected only for that heater - that also has a UL listing (which is essential for human safety).

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A surge protector does protect human life if it prevents a catastrophic failure in a electronic device that would affect the safety of human life. Medical devices would be an excellent example. Or if it prevents thermostat failure to keep peoples animals safe. A runaway heating situation is a serious situation. However, there have also been fires caused by the surge protectors themselves when they fail. So there are no perfect solutions.

Again, there are many reasons to have an external controller.

@spyderrobotics if i get the power module should i plug the power module into a surge protector or directly into the wall outlet? Btw Im not sure if our outlets are afci or gcfi protected.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by highqualityballz

@spyderrobotics if i get the power module should i plug the power module into a surge protector or directly into the wall outlet? Btw Im not sure if our outlets are afci or gcfi protected.

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Use a surge protector. There is still a transformer inside that it would protect and you have the added benefit that most have a built in 15 breaker so you get short circuit protection.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spyderrobotics

So I guess you have to be clear whether you are talking about a one off solution to solve a individuals issue or something that is a production unit.

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This is obviously a 'one off solution'. Since other heaters do not have this problem. Semiconductors remain a simple solution (BTW, heat is greatest when operating a dimmer at half intensity. Dimmers must works continuously in a worst state and still not create too much heat. They do). Other solutions have also been mentioned. All must be replied to.

A most critical questions remain ignored. Is it a GFCI or AFCI. Nothing useful can be posted without answering all questions - especially this one. Also not provided were numbers. Semiconductors (ie thyristors) work successfully (not too hot) for same reasons why dimmer switches (at highest heat setting ie at halfway dimmed) also produce so little heat. Details are irrelevant because every question was not answers - including all most important ones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

BTW, heat is greatest when operating a dimmer at half intensity. Dimmers must works continuously in a worst state and still not create too much heat. They do).

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This is not true. Only a resistive based rheostat generates more heat during dimmed function because it burns the excess current off through resistance. In solid state devices like triacs or mosfets they only pass through current when the device is in the on state and therefore at half power they only produce half the heat (only on for part of the half AC cycle). Rheostats are practically extinct today. Even cheap dimmers use this method. Which often is why dimmers are not rated for ceiling fans (motors in general). Because without a snubber on the triac they can self trigger and not turn off at zero crossing. We actually use a more expensive triac with built in snubber on our units which allows them to work with misting pumps and such.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spyderrobotics

However, there have also been fires caused by the surge protectors themselves when they fail. So there are no perfect solutions.

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Surge protectors adjacent to appliances create fires due to undersizing (which increases profits). Those protectors do not claim to protect from typically destructive transients. And are especially dangerous when a completely different device - also called a surge protector - is not properly installed.

That is completely irrelevant to and will never avert the original problem - arcing or a grossly undersized thermostat. Problem remains unsolvable because even numbers for a thermostat and heater were not provided. No numbers means the technically informed cannot provide a useful answer. Can only summary the many possible solutions using an executive summary. Is it an AFCI or GFCI. Even that must be answered before anything useful can be posted.

Adjacent protectors do not do what was only assumed using speculation. Manufacturer spec numbers make that obvious. Protectors clearly provide no resolution for arcing.

Once relevant questions are answered, then many useful solutions (ie semiconductors, filters, etc) can be addressed and detailed.

Surge protectors obviously have no transformer. Pictures demonstrate what is inside a surge protector AND a problem with near zero protectors (this obviously is not an endorsement of that manufacturer's product - do not jump to conclusions) :
http://www.zerosurge.com/technical-i...th-about-movs/

A transformer obviously does nothing to avert arcing; is not a solution. Every 'solution' is only speculation until relevant questions (ie AFCI or GFCI) are answered. A surge protector does absolutely nothing to avert each posted symptom - as even made obvious by its specifications that do not claim anything that would be a solution.

First a problem must be defined. Currently, it is not. Only its symptoms are provided resulting in speculation that does not even claim to avert those symptoms.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spyderrobotics

In solid state devices like triacs or mosfets they only pass through current when the device is in the on state and therefore at half power they only produce half the heat (only on for part of the half AC cycle).

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When does a dimmer switch using triacs create highest heat? When at the half dimmed position. How much heat? Depends on how it is designed. Semiconductors are routinely used to switch power - even hundreds of thousands of volt transmission lines. AC is converted to DC from Washington to California, all lines incoming to Quebec, and the connection from NJ to Long Island. Then more semiconductors convert that DC back to AC - without excessive heat. But again, semiconductors are problematic when one does not implement additional design concepts. Hundreds of megawatts controlled and delivered by semiconductors that do not overheat.

When does a computer's power supply (that is constantly switching) create greatest heat? Typically when operating at half power. Heating is minimized at full power - when semiconductors are selected and properly designed to perform switching.

Denials only exist because you could not make semiconductors and snubber circuits work. Others have used those well proven solutions successfully. Which one is best for the OP? He must first provide necessary information. Otherwise only solutions based in speculation (ie a protector) will exist.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westom

When does a dimmer switch using triacs create highest heat? When at the half dimmed position. How much heat? Depends on how it is designed. Semiconductors are routinely used to switch power - even hundreds of thousands of volt transmission lines. AC is converted to DC from Washington to California, all lines incoming to Quebec, and the connection from NJ to Long Island. Then more semiconductors convert that DC back to AC - without excessive heat. But again, semiconductors are problematic when one does not implement additional design concepts. Hundreds of megawatts controlled and delivered by semiconductors that do not overheat.

When does a computer's power supply (that is constantly switching) create greatest heat? Typically when operating at half power. Heating is minimized at full power - when semiconductors are selected and properly designed to perform switching.

Denials only exist because you could not make semiconductors and snubber circuits work. Others have used those well proven solutions successfully. Which one is best for the OP? He must first provide necessary information. Otherwise only solutions based in speculation (ie a protector) will exist.

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I don't think you understand. "When does a dimmer switch using triacs create highest heat? When at the half dimmed position." This is not true. In a half dimmed position on a solid state dimmer is is only passing current half the time and therefore generating half the heat. During the ac cycle the voltage goes from 0 to 120V and back to zero in a half cycle. Triac based control waits for zero crossing and then delays and then triggers in that half cycle and stays on until back to zero volts. The longer the delay the less power. If you wait half the cycle then you are not passing any current and not sinking any current during that half phase therefor not generating any heat.

"semiconductors are problematic when one does not implement additional design concepts" This is true.

"When does a computer's power supply (that is constantly switching) create greatest heat? Typically when operating at half power." This is wildly false. They do have better efficiency at certain loadings (usually more than half loaded) but they definitely do not create more heat at half power. This is also why many switching power supplies do not turn on the fan until load goes up. You are confusing linear power supplies with switching power supplies.

"Denials only exist because you could not make semiconductors and snubber circuits work." I certainly have proven to make semiconductors work just fine with 10+ years of building and designing thermostats which have snubbers built in. I also had snubbers working in my relay experiments but in order to see much improvement it required a large cap and due to size restrictions was not the best option. There is a difference between successful and not practical for a circuit.

And with that I have thermostats to build. :)

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Originally Posted by spyderrobotics

Use a surge protector. There is still a transformer inside that it would protect and you have the added benefit that most have a built in 15 breaker so you get short circuit protection.

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Will this one do the job? Its the highest quality one i can find. I just dont want a repeat of what happened with the ranco cause if i didnt catch it sooner it wouldve been a big problem for my animals, so i want the best of the best protection!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00005...520&th=1&psc=1

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Originally Posted by highqualityballz

Will this one do the job? Its the highest quality one i can find. I just dont want a repeat of what happened with the ranco cause if i didnt catch it sooner it wouldve been a big problem for my animals, so i want the best of the best protection!

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Tripplite does nothing for what would have caused a previous failure. Protectors are for a transient that can occur maybe once every seven years. It would be incoming to all appliances. If a thermostat needs one, then protection is essential for a dishwasher, bathroom GFCIs, all clocks, LED bulbs, TV, central air conditioner, computer, refrigerator, recharging phone, and (the most critical appliance when a surge exists) all smoke detectors.

Your failure is typical of a most common reason for electronics failure - manufacturing defects. Internal inspection could say more. Others noted this manufacturer's high failure rate. Same would explain your failure. Identifying a failed part would say why failure happened. Most electronics failures are due to manufacturing defects - not surges.

Install one 'whole house' protector for about $1 per protected appliance - so that everything (including a 'tiny joules' Tripplite and a thermostat) is protected from a transient that can occur once every seven years. Then thousands of joules do not even create a protector fire. Then a potentially destructive transient does not overwhelm superior protection already inside every appliance (including a thermostat). Even a Tripplite needs that protection.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by highqualityballz

Will this one do the job? Its the highest quality one i can find. I just dont want a repeat of what happened with the ranco cause if i didnt catch it sooner it wouldve been a big problem for my animals, so i want the best of the best protection!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00005...520&th=1&psc=1

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I do agree with westom that this would not solve what happened to your Ranco. I am not convinced it was a manufacturing defect. I would have to see the circuit board to see exactly how it failed.

From the manual I linked to in the previous post (assuming that your ranco is one of the models listed in it) they rate the unit at 9.8 amps resistive which is 1176 watts. So technically running a 1500 watt oil filled heater on high is well beyond what the manufacturer rated it for. Also over time relay contacts build up carbon and generate resistance which causes heat. If the ranco had been in service for some time and also the heater was always on high then this very well could have been typical expected failure under those circumstances.

To be in compliance with their ratings you would run the oil filled heater on medium. I just put ours on a meter and it draws about 880 watts peak on medium. If the room is still too cool and the thermostat doesn't make temp then try adding a second oil filled heater plugged directly into a different wall outlet set to low power. It should help boost the heat while the thermostat control does the final regulation. If the room temps warm in the summer then turn off the second supplemental heater and see if the thermostat controlled one can do it on its own. By running the heater on medium the relay in the replacement thermostat will last much longer. :)

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Originally Posted by spyderrobotics

I do agree with westom that this would not solve what happened to your Ranco. I am not convinced it was a manufacturing defect. I would have to see the circuit board to see exactly how it failed.

From the manual I linked to in the previous post (assuming that your ranco is one of the models listed in it) they rate the unit at 9.8 amps resistive which is 1176 watts. So technically running a 1500 watt oil filled heater on high is well beyond what the manufacturer rated it for. Also over time relay contacts build up carbon and generate resistance which causes heat. If the ranco had been in service for some time and also the heater was always on high then this very well could have been typical expected failure under those circumstances.

To be in compliance with their ratings you would run the oil filled heater on medium. I just put ours on a meter and it draws about 880 watts peak on medium. If the room is still too cool and the thermostat doesn't make temp then try adding a second oil filled heater plugged directly into a different wall outlet set to low power. It should help boost the heat while the thermostat control does the final regulation. If the room temps warm in the summer then turn off the second supplemental heater and see if the thermostat controlled one can do it on its own. By running the heater on medium the relay in the replacement thermostat will last much longer. :)

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So you think i shoild purchase another ranco and keep the oil filled heater on medium or purchase your power module?

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Originally Posted by highqualityballz

So you think i shoild purchase another ranco and keep the oil filled heater on medium or purchase your power module?

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Ideally I would point you to the thermsotat product I have coming out but it will be a couple of months before all the parts come in for that model. It has a second relay as a backup and tech built in which extends relay life. :)

At the moment and for your needs I would say you could go with another ranco but to be honest there is alot of reports of failures with them out there. People use them in brewing beer and other uses so there is a wide variety of people using them. In my research I have not seen as many people having problems with the Johnson Controls A419 units. We actually got one in for eval months ago and the build quality was good. You can get them prewired for about the same price as the Ranco. If I recall the only setup necessary was one jumper that had to be moved. It was a simple process and the vendor may do it for you. If it were me I would give a Johnson Controls unit a shot and use the heater on medium.

I think this would fit your situation better than the power module route.

Here is an example of those units:
http://www.amazon.com/Johnson-Contro...=sr_1_2&sr=8-2

Maybe search around here on BP and see what experience others have had with the Johnson units. One other thing. I don't think the rancos come prewired from the factory. I believe its just the industrial unit and someone is wiring them outside the factory. The Johnsons are available in a prewired from the factory versions such as the one in the link. That can be important because you never know who is wiring those rancos and the quality of their work. Loose, frayed wires can lead to failures.

If you plan on tossing your ranco I would be happy to take a look at it and get an idea how it failed. I would cover your shipping and let you know my thoughts once I open it up. If your interested in that you can contact me direct at the sales@spyderrobotics.com email address. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spyderrobotics

Ideally I would point you to the thermsotat product I have coming out but it will be a couple of months before all the parts come in for that model. It has a second relay as a backup and tech built in which extends relay life. :)

At the moment and for your needs I would say you could go with another ranco but to be honest there is alot of reports of failures with them out there. People use them in brewing beer and other uses so there is a wide variety of people using them. In my research I have not seen as many people having problems with the Johnson Controls A419 units. We actually got one in for eval months ago and the build quality was good. You can get them prewired for about the same price as the Ranco. If I recall the only setup necessary was one jumper that had to be moved. It was a simple process and the vendor may do it for you. If it were me I would give a Johnson Controls unit a shot and use the heater on medium.

I think this would fit your situation better than the power module route.

Here is an example of those units:
http://www.amazon.com/Johnson-Contro...=sr_1_2&sr=8-2

Maybe search around here on BP and see what experience others have had with the Johnson units. One other thing. I don't think the rancos come prewired from the factory. I believe its just the industrial unit and someone is wiring them outside the factory. The Johnsons are available in a prewired from the factory versions such as the one in the link. That can be important because you never know who is wiring those rancos and the quality of their work. Loose, frayed wires can lead to failures.

If you plan on tossing your ranco I would be happy to take a look at it and get an idea how it failed. I would cover your shipping and let you know my thoughts once I open it up. If your interested in that you can contact me direct at the sales@spyderrobotics.com email address. :)

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Ok thanks. I emailed you.

I dont know how you are using your oil filled heaters... But it sounds as if you are plugging them into surge protector or power strips.. You may want to read the manual for oil heater... Mine says to plug oil heater directly into a wall outlet, not to use extension cords, power strips or surge protectors to avoid a fire hazzard.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by highqualityballz

Ok thanks. I emailed you.

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Best part of doing an autospy is to start by smashing it open with a hammer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

I dont know how you are using your oil filled heaters... But it sounds as if you are plugging them into surge protector or power strips.. You may want to read the manual for oil heater... Mine says to plug oil heater directly into a wall outlet, not to use extension cords, power strips or surge protectors to avoid a fire hazard.

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You can use a heavy duty extension cord but most people wouldn't spend the extra cash on one. :rofl::rofl: