Paying for possible hets

First I want to preface this with I am fairly new to the hobby of ball pythons. I was just curious as to what your opinion about paying more for possible het animals is? I am in the market for a het pied and some people seem to want crazy money for a possible het animal with one co dom gene. I understand you may be able to rake in some reward if the odds hit in your favor, but not if you end up paying more for the animal. In my eyes possible hets are generally a miss in a breeders plan and would be available at discounted prices. With the buyer being the one with everything to lose you would think they would be more reasonable. Maybe I just don't understand where these breeders are coming from, and would appreciate enlightenment.

Buying a possible het is still usually less expensive than buying a 100% het or visual. Is it a gamble? Sure. But if you want a sure thing, then you have to pay the price. If I was buying a possible het, I think I would really want to buy from a well known and reputable breeder.

In the end, you determine what you are willing to pay and the risk you are willing to take. When I was looking for a GHI Mojave, I narrowed my decision between 2 snakes. Both were from very reputable and well known breeders, but one was Possible het for clown and due to that, was a couple hundred more than the other. I chose the non-het.

Usually possible hets for the most common recessive (PH Ghost, PH Albino, PH Pied) will not cost you more than a normal matter of fact many breeders including myself wholesale them as normal.

Would I buy possible hets probably not unless it's an entire clutch that is female heavy, would I buy specific mutation PH ? insert recessive here"? Yes if it is the right animal last one I purchased was a male CG leopard Het Hypo PH Pied.

Most of the PH animals in my collection have been animals that I produced and I knew would prove out ;)

Now as far as 100% Het Pied a fair price would be $50 to $75 for a female hardly something that breaks the bank, that's how I priced mine this year (based on quantity) and I even gave a free male with any purchase of a female, I was sold out in no time.

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That seems more than fair to me, I am sorry I missed out. I am glad I am not alone in thinking a possible het isn't worth much. I have seen a few folks pricing ph as much as I have found a 100% het. Guess they just don't want to sell their products.

A Banana 66% Het Clown male just sold for $170 on an Auction. I missed out :tears:

Hey Anthony, It's always better and safer to go with a 100% het over a possible het regardless of the percentage of the possible het. Always ask the breeder for pictures of the parents he is claiming produced the hatchlings or the juveniles. Ask if he is guaranteeing the genetics as well. Make sure if you take the risk with a possible het that it fits into your breeding plans and don't be discouraged if the possible het doesn't prove out on the first produced clutch results. I produced some 100% double hets recently. Double het for albino and pied all 100%. Traded two females off and held back the only male and two of the last females. I documented the guaranteed 100% to the trader with pictures and paperwork. I can't wait to post about the results from both my pairings and the person I traded with.

My candino male p/het pied came from a breeder on Long Island who is a stand up guy who did not guarantee any the genetic possibility. However he assured me that he was pretty sure that the pied gene is present in the animal. I took his word but have yet to put the male to the test. He still rather young but growing and feeding like a champ.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

That seems more than fair to me, I am sorry I missed out. I am glad I am not alone in thinking a possible het isn't worth much. I have seen a few folks pricing ph as much as I have found a 100% het. Guess they just don't want to sell their products.

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It's really just gonna depends on the possible het for genes that have been around a while PH alone with no other genes are not worth anything much now if it's a PH Sunset it's a different story newer gene still high in price so even PH are worth more (not as much as hets) but pricey, it's a huge gamble but with the possibility of huge payoff.....I am not a gambler I would rather way until price are in my range and get something that will guarantee me to hatch a visual.



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Possible Het or 100% Het........ Its all up to how much you are willing to gamble on a snake.
Nothing is guaranteed unless it is a visual.
Photos and paperwork don't mean anything anymore.
I have several recessives in my collection and now also have a 1.5 double het group that I produced.
To anyone else (when I decide to sell them) its only my word that they can count on.
I also label my possible het as normal.

You seem focused on lower value possible hets, which as pointed out, aren't really worth any more than normals. It would be nice if everyone had the budget to acquire animals that would never produce possible hets but that's not how it works when you move out beyond albinos and pieds. Similarly, buyers may the like the opportunity to work with a morph and they couldn't afford a guaranteed het. It's definitely a gamble when you're choosing between a het or visual and a ph. There's no gamble when you're choice is between a normal and ph.

Possible hets can have their place in breeding projects. I wanted to get into ultramels years ago but my budget wouldn't stretch that far for visual. Instead I acquired a pastel guaranteed het ultramel male and paired him with a couple codom girls. I now have super pastel and pastel ph het ultramels females of breeding size.

Now that the price has come down, I purchased a male ultramel and plan to pair him with these ph ultra super pastel and pastel girls. I have a chance at pastel ultramels which is very exciting for me and I've waited for this chance for years. Worst case scenario is I get to hold back several female pastel guaranteed het ultramels. No gamble because the alternative was for this project to not exist in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky Dragons

I've waited for this chance for years.

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Many people don't want to do this.
All I have is time. :gj:

I see what you are saying about the more expensive and new mutations, but that is just way to much risk for me. As I am mostly interested in the recessive gene it is hard to see where a ph that did not prove out would fit into my plans, and maybe that is the issue. I mos def make sure about the parents and that the seller guarantees 100% get in the animals I am looking at. I think if I produce possible hets in the future I will definitely sell them at normal prices with the chance that the buyer can get lucky.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

it is hard to see where a ph that did not prove out would fit into my plans,

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?? If you are looking at adult breeders BUT if you are looking at hatchlings then you are looking at it all wrong.
One of my first pairings was a het Albino to a het Albino. I got 2 visual females out of that clutch and 3 possible het so that makes the parents proven but the non visuals are still only possible.
Was it worth it to me? I had less than $100 in the two original animals and the female was almost 1500g when I got her.

Forgot to add, 1 of those 2 females is the dam to my double het clutch this year.
The same clutch that I did not know my Axanthic was also het Albino.
Its a long way to making it Snow :gj::gj:

I don't think I'd buy a possible het unless I'd be fine with it not being het. I have a pied and het pied female and a pied male. If someone was selling a ph pied female hatchling I wouldn't care, I can get 100% het all day for 50 bucks at shows near me. If it was near breeding size them maybe. Last show a guy had a possible het female pied that the guy said locked with his male visual pied and might lay. That's a lot of maybes but I could have gotten her for 75, only 25 more than a guaranteed het hatchling. That would probably be worth it to me, but still not something I'd jump at. If it was a lemonblast ph pied then I'd for sure pay more for it than just a lemonblast.

I have seen those ph pied snakes with a couple morphs that are basically the same price as a 100% het and I wouldn't go for that. It all depends what I want and how much budget I have. Most of the time it seems like I'd look at a snake for the morphs it has but the price was too high because it was a ph het or 66% het for something I don't have in my collection.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Most of the PH animals in my collection have been animals that I produced and I knew would prove out ;)

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How did you know they'd prove out? Do you just mean your spidey senses were tingling?

First of all, Deborah said MOST of her possible hets were animals she knew would prove out. Never said ALL of the possible hets would prove out. So I take it the way she knows is bc she knows who and what she paired up. The parental genetics and the hatchling genetics produced from that pairing. As opposed to someone reporting a possible het bc they are trying to offload normals as something they aren't and getting a unfair price for it.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Many people don't want to do this.
All I have is time. :gj:

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Recessives are definitely a patient man's game but I greatly prefer them. The only codoms in my collection are focused on pairing with recessives.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

I see what you are saying about the more expensive and new mutations, but that is just way to much risk for me. As I am mostly interested in the recessive gene it is hard to see where a ph that did not prove out would fit into my plans, and maybe that is the issue. I mos def make sure about the parents and that the seller guarantees 100% get in the animals I am looking at. I think if I produce possible hets in the future I will definitely sell them at normal prices with the chance that the buyer can get lucky.

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It all depends on your situation. Here's a zero risk situation:

You have pieds and want to produce banana pieds. Banana het pieds are too much for your pockets so you are resigned to purchasing a regular banana, crossing it with your pied, getting guaranteed hets, crossing back, and eventually producing the banana pied after a couple crossings. For slightly more than the banana alone, but much less than a guaranteed het, you can get a possible het and have a chance cutting this time in half. There's absolutely no risk as you would not be any further behind than with your originally intended banana only purchase. You may be out a hundred bucks or two for the chance of saving a couple years.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

First I want to preface this with I am fairly new to the hobby of ball pythons. I was just curious as to what your opinion about paying more for possible het animals is? I am in the market for a het pied and some people seem to want crazy money for a possible het animal with one co dom gene. I understand you may be able to rake in some reward if the odds hit in your favor, but not if you end up paying more for the animal. In my eyes possible hets are generally a miss in a breeders plan and would be available at discounted prices. With the buyer being the one with everything to lose you would think they would be more reasonable. Maybe I just don't understand where these breeders are coming from, and would appreciate enlightenment.

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This isn't really correct. Possible hets aren't a miss in a breeders plan but rather what happens when a het is paired up with anything but a visual. Not everyone, especially when starting out, can pair up hets to visuals for every breeding. Even the big guys will do het x het crosses for the chance at something truly incredible. I consider any "hets" produced from a female that was bred to anything but the visual morph in the past to be possible hets and a breeder should label them as such or at least disclose the past breedings. These potential hets could be considered a breeding miss due to poor planning.

They are always available at discounted prices... less than the price of a guaranteed het. As others have mentioned, sometimes it's not worth the trouble to mark up or even label possible hets or even guaranteed hets as anything but normals. I sold all my guaranteed het pied males as just normals and ph ultramel males as normals or pastels. I held back all the females :)

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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky Dragons

Recessives are definitely a patient man's game but I greatly prefer them. The only codoms in my collection are focused on pairing with recessives.

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Working my way there too. :gj::gj:

I would argue that nobody tries to create ph animals and they only exist by proxy of a desired combination. A genetic miss is a miss even if it is expected. I understand that they should be discounted but in my recent search this does not seem to be the case, hence the creation of this thread. They can be worked into collection, just not my small plans. I still don't know why someone would pay much if any more for a animal when in most cases you could produce a 100% het in one season. You are right recessive are a patient man's game and that seems like the right play.

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Originally Posted by bks2100

How did you know they'd prove out? Do you just mean your spidey senses were tingling?

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I mainly work with Pieds so back when I first started ( a while ago when Het Pied were $1200 a pair), I just held back PH Pieds that had the right markers, I did the same again when holding back an Enchi PH Pied 3 years ago and last season with Het Hypo PH Pied.

The male CG Leopard Het Hypo PH Pied has strong markers (that's why I bought him) and I feel confident that he will prove.

So far all have proved out and I am pretty sure the Hypo PH Pied will too.

Now while markers are not a 100% guarantee when purchasing (plus some are obvious other are not) it's a good way to determine which animal to keep when breeding, you just need to know what you look for. ;)

Het Pied are easy to spot :gj:

First, not everyone can just make a 100% het in each situation. Like some have said, sometimes you want a recessive gene but you can't afford the 100% het animals. If you really want the gene on a budget, then a possible het is an affordable way to try for it. Especially in combos, a poss het can add a lot of value even when it's just a chance at carrying that extra gene.

Yes, a possible het should cost less than a 100% het BUT... you can ONLY contrast the prices from the same breeder. As in, if I were to offer up snakes for sale and some were 100% het and some were possible het, then you would expect that the 100% hets would be higher in price. But you cannot take one 100% het from one breeder and contrast the price of a possible het from a separate breeder and say that the possible het price is unfairly high because it is the same or higher than the other breeder's 100%. Different breeders will set different prices. This is not unfair at all. It's THEIR animal and they are entitled to price it anywhere on the scale.

Some breeders may value a possible het more because of what they are working with. Some will already have 100% hets or perhaps they are keeping visuals out of the clutch and don't have any need for the hets(poss or 100%) so they are selling them cheaper. Many factors go into the pricing of any animal. So it's never a unfairly high price, because the breeder produced it(or the seller purchased it) and they get to set whatever price they like.

If you feel like you only want the "sure thing" and don't want to possibly waste time raising up a normal, then possible hets are definitely not for you. But it can also be quite exciting to get an animal that is possibly het for trait, and then prove it out yourself too.

I would like to more about markers. How reliable are they? I know het pieds show stripes near their cloaca, but is there something else? Also what other genes have markers?

If there was a pos het sunset male that was affordable to me, I would be in the market for 5 proven female normals instantly and easily risk producing a bunch of normals for the chance for producing more hets. Sunset price is way out of reach for me currently, but realistically I could gamble and be in the project with pos hets. If I didn't want to gamble it would cost me up front.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

I would like to more about markers. How reliable are they? I know het pieds show stripes near their cloaca, but is there something else? Also what other genes have markers?

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Het Clowns also have markers, as for het pieds it's more than just the train tracks.

How reliable are they? So far I have proved out 100% of the animals I have held back based on markers. Lucky? I think not ;), future will tell if I am right about some of the PH I have right now.

Some normals may have markers similar to Het Pieds, some Het Pied may also appear not to have markers (again you really have to have an eye for it)

When you start stacking up genes it can become very difficult if not impossible to identify.

The bottom line if you buy Hets (not talking about PH) you should not buy them based on markers but based on the breeder, always buy hets from a REPUTABLE breeder (big or small) that will stand behind his animals.

If you buy PH it's a gamble anyway but you can always try to guess which one might prove based on what you see.