I'm doing Spider x Spider

Decided to go ahead with my Spider x Spider experiment. Super Enchi Lesser Spider x Calico Pastel Spider. I'll be following up when / if she lays.

http://i.imgur.com/lNCP7KC.jpg?1

Interesting to see what comes of it.

Be pre-paired for a lot of criticism, not saying it will hit you but chances are pretty big some people will try and start one.

I personally do not really understand why as those same people say nothing about lets say a Black Pastel x Black Pastel breeding.

Good luck on the pairing, keep us posted and build a little storm bunker :D

Why would anyone criticize that? I see no problems with it and I haven't heard that spider X spider breeding causes any more problems then just spider by itself. I actually think that it'll be a pretty interesting clutch.

I love that calico pastel spider! Good luck on the breeding, I'm very interested to see what the verdict is!

The spider gene is my favorite and hope you get good results from this pairing.

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Since I can't find many people on here that have bred Spider x Spider, I started asking on the FB groups. So far I've gotten good responses. Everyone has said they've done it and haven't noticed a higher number of slugs or bad eggs. I've been corresponding with a couple big breeders that tried producing a homozygous spider, like TSK, and they said they noticed nothing unusual while doing spider x spider breedings. I'm curious to see what comes of this.

I'm one of those who has never been much of a fan of the spider gene, but every time I see a Pastel Calico Spider I just go WOW!
Stunning snakes! That should be a crazy fun pairing.

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Originally Posted by Asherah

I'm one of those who has never been much of a fan of the spider gene, but every time I see a Pastel Calico Spider I just go WOW!
Stunning snakes! That should be a crazy fun pairing.

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Thanks! She's a beauty. She's blue in the photo and my camera is bad quality. My only complaint is she's a mouser, buuut maybe she'll switch ;P

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Why would anyone criticize that? I see no problems with it and I haven't heard that spider X spider breeding causes any more problems then just spider by itself. I actually think that it'll be a pretty interesting clutch.

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I saw a thread about this recently but I can't remember if I replied to it or deleted what I was going to say. I think people are criticizing it for two reasons. First there's no super form and no one's proven out a homozygous spider, so that means that either no one has taken the time to really prove it out (I'm sure someone would have noticed it even if they weren't trying to prove it out) or that there's some type of genetic issue where it's a lethal combo or the eggs don't go full term (which people also haven't noticed). There's not a clear answer either way. The second reason is that some people don't like the spider gene because of the wobble, so they assume it's lethal or a doomed egg.

If someone was pairing spider x spider I'd say it's not very efficient. Spider x spider = 75% spiders, but if you paired each to a normal you'd end up with 50% spiders, but more eggs. Then add in pairing with some other morph and it's even better.

But in circumstances like this it's silly to criticize the pairing. Pairing two 3 gene snakes together is hard to ever really criticize, but this is even better because of the super enchi and the fact that it's 5 different genes. The excitement of whether or not I got a 5 gene snake would be exciting. Even though it's a lot to put into a snake it'd be great for a breeder.

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Originally Posted by bks2100

I saw a thread about this recently but I can't remember if I replied to it or deleted what I was going to say. I think people are criticizing it for two reasons. First there's no super form and no one's proven out a homozygous spider, so that means that either no one has taken the time to really prove it out (I'm sure someone would have noticed it even if they weren't trying to prove it out) or that there's some type of genetic issue where it's a lethal combo or the eggs don't go full term (which people also haven't noticed). There's not a clear answer either way. The second reason is that some people don't like the spider gene because of the wobble, so they assume it's lethal or a doomed egg.

If someone was pairing spider x spider I'd say it's not very efficient. Spider x spider = 75% spiders, but if you paired each to a normal you'd end up with 50% spiders, but more eggs. Then add in pairing with some other morph and it's even better.

But in circumstances like this it's silly to criticize the pairing. Pairing two 3 gene snakes together is hard to ever really criticize, but this is even better because of the super enchi and the fact that it's 5 different genes. The excitement of whether or not I got a 5 gene snake would be exciting. Even though it's a lot to put into a snake it'd be great for a breeder.

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I like the spider gene, so it's worth it to me to breed two spider combos together. The more spider babies, the better. I am still trying to make even a Bumblebee and Lesser Bee after two years of trying with a Queenbee x Single gene morphs, lol. As you can see I upgraded this year. The spider gene has been soooo elusive in all of my breedings it's frustrating.

Here are some results recorded from breeders on facebook:

- Spider x spider
6 eggs. No issues.
- Spider x bee
5 eggs. No issues

- Yes I had a successful breeding of a male axanthic spider, visual to 4 het axanthic females spiders.. out of one of the clutches I did produce a pure white snake that live for about a week or so inside of the egg but never developed to a stage where it lived outside of it. So yes there is a super form, but it died i guess the terminology 2 be applied is lethal. I have no idea about adding different genes to a super form of spider.
BEAUTIFUL SNAKE (I would take his claims with a grain of salt. Even though you produced a white snake, that doesn't mean that it is for sure a "super form". Not enough information and proof given)

- I've seen someone breed spider to spider and a couple of the babies were really clean looking spiders. One had noticeable wobble but the other didn't. The clutch was 6 eggs 2 were slugs the other 4 hatched and were just fine.

- I have done spider X bee and I saw no white snakes or bad eggs there were 10 eggs all healthy most showed no visual sign of wobble, I could have missed on the proverbial white snake.

- I'm on my first clutch now and after doing research and speaking with a lot of breeders on the subject, I chose to do a lesser bee X killer bee pairing. She laid 6 perfect eggs, no boobs or slugs and all candled with strong veins. The breeders I spoke to that have tried it all noted they had a normal good egg to slug ratio. No more then any other pairing. Also anytime an egg dies before the embryo reaches a certain stage in development, you will find a white baby in the egg. Pattern develops fairly late and color is one of the last things to develop.

- And also another guy talking about his friends clutch where only 2 out of the 5 eggs were good. I didn't include his because his posts are a mess, he's very unsure, and he's really obviously biased by repeatedly saying things like "It's not worth it, why would you do it, etc"

- Buddy did bee x bee 6 eggs one roll out. No issues all were healthy

- Rob Starzman himself chimes in: I've done spider X spider hundreds (yes hundreds) of times without producing any white snakes. I highly doubt this is a lethal combination. Some babies show more neurological symptoms than others. I've held a few of the more neuro combos back over the years in order to prove out a super spider but ice never produced a clutch with all spiders in it.

Me: Did you notice increased number of slugs or eggs that go bad?

Rob Starzman: Nothing noticeable. I have had spiders in my collection since they first became readily available (I paid 20k for my first) and after countless clutches with both parents carrying the gene I can say I've never seen anything significant in terms of increased slug ratio, eggs going bad, and mortality of hatchlings.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Thanks! She's a beauty. She's blue in the photo and my camera is bad quality. My only complaint is she's a mouser, buuut maybe she'll switch ;P

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Oh I feel your pain. I have a albino that is on mice. She was a bit skinny when I got her. Found out why pretty quick, sitting at 300 grams she would only eat 1 mouse hopper in a feeding. She's finally graduated to 2 full size mice per feed and is growing well but for a while I was banging my head on the rack every feeding day. Crossing my fingers I can switch her over. She's still refusing rats outright, but I have some AFS's that I've got growing out with a mouse colony. Hoping that they will smell mousy enough to get her to switch over.

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Originally Posted by Asherah

Oh I feel your pain. I have a albino that is on mice. She was a bit skinny when I got her. Found out why pretty quick, sitting at 300 grams she would only eat 1 mouse hopper in a feeding. She's finally graduated to 2 full size mice per feed and is growing well but for a while I was banging my head on the rack every feeding day. Crossing my fingers I can switch her over. She's still refusing rats outright, but I have some AFS's that I've got growing out with a mouse colony. Hoping that they will smell mousy enough to get her to switch over.

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It's annoying having to buy 5 mice and then monitoring her eating them all for the next hour. She's actually eaten one small rat for me right after a mouse, but has refused them since. I have another male that will only eat gerbils. I didn't want to get into ASF, but maybe if he would eat F/T ASF that'd be cheaper than buying him a gerbil. I tried scenting with him but he doesn't go for it. He's a 2014 and when I got him a couple months ago was only 300g. I think he's only eaten 3 times for me now. Wouldn't be such a big deal if I could breed my own rodents.

My albino spider female is about 36" long and still refuses rats. I offer one every time and she simply looks the other way. As soon as she sees the mouse, she's on it. 2 mice every 5 days still. Really sucks trying to put weight on a bp using mice only....

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

It's annoying having to buy 5 mice and then monitoring her eating them all for the next hour. She's actually eaten one small rat for me right after a mouse, but has refused them since. I have another male that will only eat gerbils. I didn't want to get into ASF, but maybe if he would eat F/T ASF that'd be cheaper than buying him a gerbil. I tried scenting with him but he doesn't go for it. He's a 2014 and when I got him a couple months ago was only 300g. I think he's only eaten 3 times for me now. Wouldn't be such a big deal if I could breed my own rodents.

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I've tried scenting as well. It's a no go for my girl. Crossing my fingers on growing out the ASF's with the mice might work. I'm only trying ASF's because I have a colony set up and building a second one. I also have mice and rat colony's so offering the mice aren't really the problem, it's the quantity that I know it will eventually take. An hours worth of monitoring her feeding just is not appealing. -_-

He will come along, some are more stubborn than others.

Is it impossible to even set up a small tub of mice?

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Originally Posted by enginee837

My albino spider female is about 36" long and still refuses rats. I offer one every time and she simply looks the other way. As soon as she sees the mouse, she's on it. 2 mice every 5 days still. Really sucks trying to put weight on a bp using mice only....

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It's tough but it can be done!

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Originally Posted by Asherah

I've tried scenting as well. It's a no go for my girl. Crossing my fingers on growing out the ASF's with the mice might work. I'm only trying ASF's because I have a colony set up and building a second one. I also have mice and rat colony's so offering the mice aren't really the problem, it's the quantity that I know it will eventually take. An hours worth of monitoring her feeding just is not appealing. -_-

He will come along, some are more stubborn than others.

Is it impossible to even set up a small tub of mice?

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I considered getting a tank and breeding some of my own, but it's too much of a commitment right now as I'm going to be starting an insane accelerated nursing program in a month and I just don't have time to start up something else.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

I considered getting a tank and breeding some of my own, but it's too much of a commitment right now as I'm going to be starting an insane accelerated nursing program in a month and I just don't have time to start up something else.

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Don't blame you on that one! It is a hassle!

Haha I'm one of the people that commented with my lesser bee X Killer bee. Day 11 and eggs are still going strong.
P.s. I've heard a great way to get a female off of mice is to wait til she lays eggs. She will be famished and will be ready to eat just about anything (after a tub cleaning of course). I've heard of this working very successfully

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Originally Posted by aLittleLessButter

Haha I'm one of the people that commented with my lesser bee X Killer bee. Day 11 and eggs are still going strong.
P.s. I've heard a great way to get a female off of mice is to wait til she lays eggs. She will be famished and will be ready to eat just about anything (after a tub cleaning of course). I've heard of this working very successfully

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Are you Eileen? I saw that post on FB and thought it looked familiar.

I also agree with that method. Got my picky girl on f/t that way. About two months ago she started only eating live again. I feel some pretty decent follicles in her!

Yup I am! Sounds like your girl is working to go for you this year. Can't wait to see the results

I always see this but no one ever breeds a normal spider to a normal spider they always have multi gene animals if you want to try and prove this out get 2 normals single gene spiders 1 male 1 female that's what I'm doing I'm just waiting for my female to be of size

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

I always see this but no one ever breeds a normal spider to a normal spider they always have multi gene animals if you want to try and prove this out get 2 normals single gene spiders 1 male 1 female that's what I'm doing I'm just waiting for my female to be of size

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Using gene combos doesn't dampen your chances if you are trying to make a super, it just gives you better off spring in case you don't. I'm not trying for a super, I just wanted to have a higher number of spiders in the clutch. Breeding a regular spider to a spider would only give me normals and spiders. That does nothing for me

Funny how one name mentioned in particular has changed their story since I talked to them in person a couple years ago....

but anyways, here was my results http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...Spider-results

2 slugs, 4 eggs, 1 went bad part way through.

I'm doing my hypo spinner to my spider this year. Looking forward to seeing your results, that's one hell of a male.

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Originally Posted by aLittleLessButter

Using gene combos doesn't dampen your chances if you are trying to make a super, it just gives you better off spring in case you don't. I'm not trying for a super, I just wanted to have a higher number of spiders in the clutch. Breeding a regular spider to a spider would only give me normals and spiders. That does nothing for me

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My only thing is what if you do produce a super and it's mixed in with other genes how are you going to tell? That's why I want to do just spider to spider that way whatever spiders do come out I won't have to sit and guess just keep em and breed them back to normals to see if I'd get all spiders

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

My only thing is what if you do produce a super and it's mixed in with other genes how are you going to tell? That's why I want to do just spider to spider that way whatever spiders do come out I won't have to sit and guess just keep em and breed them back to normals to see if I'd get all spiders

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You tell by doing the exact same thing with the Spider combos. :gj:

Yup like Eric said. There are 2 theories. 1: the super is all white so as long as you don't use 2 bel complex balls then you will be fine or 2: the super looks no different from the regular spider gene which means you won't be able to pick out the super regardless. If you use combos you will at least be able to sell what you don't keep. Clutch after clutch of normals and spiders? No thanks

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

I always see this but no one ever breeds a normal spider to a normal spider they always have multi gene animals if you want to try and prove this out get 2 normals single gene spiders 1 male 1 female that's what I'm doing I'm just waiting for my female to be of size

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I'm less interested in producing a super spider and more interested in breeding a Spider x Spider combo with viable results. I love spider gene, so I would love to have a lot of spider combo hatchlings. I'm still trying to hatch a Lesser bee and Bumble bee, the odds were never on my side. I would never breed a single gene to a single gene (unless it was a new gene or trying to prove a project), as I don't want a bunch of normals and single gene babies.

See if u love spiders then it shouldn't bother you I have 6 spiders and 3 are normal because last year just because I love them I bred my spider to normal and all the spiders sold as soon as they came out of the egg and the normals didn't take longer then a month to be claimed so normals and spiders don't bother me the fun is in the breeding and surprises that come along the way :) but my multi gene spider project is a spider mojave to a pastel special I'm going for crystal bumble bees but everybody is different and wish u luck in hitting those odds

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Originally Posted by aLittleLessButter

Yup like Eric said. There are 2 theories. 1: the super is all white so as long as you don't use 2 bel complex balls then you will be fine or 2: the super looks no different from the regular spider gene which means you won't be able to pick out the super regardless. If you use combos you will at least be able to sell what you don't keep. Clutch after clutch of normals and spiders? No thanks

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After speaking to breeders that have hatched thousands of Spider x Spider babies and held back babies to prove out a super spider with no results, it seems like one can't be created for some reason. I thought maybe a homozygous spider would result in a slug or the egg rotting sometime during incubation, but with people like TSK and Starzman trying the breeding for years with no unusual increase in slugs or bad eggs (or white babies), it SEEMS like that isn't the case. Maybe for some reason a sperm carrying the spider gene isn't even able to fertilize an egg that also has the spider gene. I have no idea. :confusd:

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

See if u love spiders then it shouldn't bother you I have 6 spiders and 3 are normal because last year just because I love them I bred my spider to normal and all the spiders sold as soon as they came out of the egg and the normals didn't take longer then a month to be claimed so normals and spiders don't bother me the fun is in the breeding and surprises that come along the way :) but my multi gene spider project is a spider mojave to a pastel special I'm going for crystal bumble bees but everybody is different and wish u luck in hitting those odds

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What bothers me about this pairing is that if you listen to rumors, a Spider x Spider breeding is supposed to create dead white baby snakes. I don't want to have a clutch full or slugs, rotting eggs, or dead babies, so that is my concern about doing this breeding. I don't care much for a single gene spider and I want to breed somewhat economically, so I don't want to invest time and money into a clutch full of normals and singles. I love the spider gene, but producing a bunch of normals does "bother" me, sorry.

Heard but never shown proof that's why I rather do it that way no matter how hard I've looked but the most common thing is slugs but if u want to listen to rumors I can go find the page where someone claims to have bred a normal spider to normal spider and all eggs slugged but one and it apperantly was a perfectly healthy baby spider but I haven't heard anything about it after and it's been a few years

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Ok well I'm not in it for money so big difference for me this is a passion/hobby so I don't care how much money is wasted into my collection

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

Ok well I'm not in it for money so big difference for me this is a passion/hobby so I don't care how much money is wasted into my collection

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We do it for the love of our snakes and the hobby as well but when the market is flooded with normal and single genes animals, it is harmful to our hobby to intentionally create clutches of normals and single genes

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

Ok well I'm not in it for money so big difference for me this is a passion/hobby so I don't care how much money is wasted into my collection

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Hey, if your passion is normals and single genes, go for it. Personally my passion is 2+ genes. If you're only going to try to demean the people here by questioning their reasons for breeding and telling them what they SHOULD be doing and how they SHOULD feel, you're more than welcome to leave, as you're not contributing anything productive to this discussion, and really taking it off track.

Passion is for ball pythons not normals lol and stop quoting me then and it will stop notifing me and theirs not soo many on the market where I am soo it's not flooding anything especially when no one orders a low price animal from America to have it shipped for more then what it's worth

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

After speaking to breeders that have hatched thousands of Spider x Spider babies and held back babies to prove out a super spider with no results, it seems like one can't be created for some reason. I thought maybe a homozygous spider would result in a slug or the egg rotting sometime during incubation, but with people like TSK and Starzman trying the breeding for years with no unusual increase in slugs or bad eggs (or white babies), it SEEMS like that isn't the case. Maybe for some reason a sperm carrying the spider gene isn't even able to fertilize an egg that also has the spider gene. I have no idea. :confusd:

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I agree. I don't believe it's actually possible. They just aren't viable. With how many people do spiderXspider and get all good eggs, I don't think they exclusive die in the egg or become slugs. I think some times they can also fail to develop from conception in the mom. I think combo disrupts the DNA so much that no matter how far it makes it in development, it will never thrive. I'd like to see the average eggs laid by spider female that were bred to spiders vs the number they laid with non spiders to see if she lays fewer eggs.

Bumblebee x Super Enchi Lesser Spider

http://i.imgur.com/zaE1ORwh.jpg

Spider has been reclassified as a Dominant, meaning no super form. Spider x Spider doesn't make spiders with more than normal derp. They won't have any less​ than normal derp, either.

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Originally Posted by SmoothScales

Spider has been reclassified as a Dominant, meaning no super form. Spider x Spider doesn't make spiders with more than normal derp. They won't have any less​ than normal derp, either.

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I think people use different definitions for the term "super". I don't know if super is supposed to mean just a visual difference in the heterozygous vs homozygous form of the gene (as seen in Pastel vs Super Pastel), OR that super = homozygous form regardless of how the homozygous form looks compared to the heterozygous form of that gene.. Take Pinstripe, which is Dominant, but also is believed to have a homozygous form that looks just like the heterozygous form. Would people still call that a Super Pinstripe?

By super, I mean a homozygous gene. Having 2 spider genes on the allele

For pinstripe as well no homozygous have been proven and that morph is out since maybe 15 years meaning for me the same as for the spider gene: it s lethal. Think about the leopard , some animals proven homozygous throwing 100% offspring leopard; but the heterozygous and homozygous phenotype are the same. I really believe the big breeders ahave done those pairing long time ago without giving their results. In a dinker project what is the second step right after hatchling babies with the dinker phenotype? Proving if there is a super form or not!

Galaxygirl i sincerely wish you good luck on this project and i will be so happy to be wrong.

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Originally Posted by darkranger69

For pinstripe as well no homozygous have been proven and that morph is out since maybe 15 years meaning for me the same as for the spider gene: it s lethal. Think about the leopard , some animals proven homozygous throwing 100% offspring leopard; but the heterozygous and homozygous phenotype are the same. I really believe the big breeders ahave done those pairing long time ago without giving their results. In a dinker project what is the second step right after hatchling babies with the dinker phenotype? Proving if there is a super form or not!

Galaxygirl i sincerely wish you good luck on this project and i will be so happy to be wrong.

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I honestly think there is something wrong early during meiosis when the spider gene is homozygous. I think for the same reason it causes neuro issues, It doesn't copy properly and therefor doesnt develop properly if at all so many don't develop enough to be laid or if they do, most are slugs. I think the white snake people were seeing were just the result of a homozygous animal that made it further but still not being fully developed. Just my theory.
Side note though: I believe pinstripes were proven to have a viable "super" by more then one big breeder. I won't be the one to drop names as I'm just going off of what I heard

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Originally Posted by darkranger69

For pinstripe as well no homozygous have been proven and that morph is out since maybe 15 years meaning for me the same as for the spider gene: it s lethal. Think about the leopard , some animals proven homozygous throwing 100% offspring leopard; but the heterozygous and homozygous phenotype are the same. I really believe the big breeders ahave done those pairing long time ago without giving their results. In a dinker project what is the second step right after hatchling babies with the dinker phenotype? Proving if there is a super form or not!

Galaxygirl i sincerely wish you good luck on this project and i will be so happy to be wrong.

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Homozygous Pinstripe is up for debate imo.. I spoke with Evan Stahl who has a Pinstripe male that has sired over 100 hatchlings that have all carried the Pinstripe gene. He believes he has a homozygous Pinstripe. I haven't looked into it much further than that, though, and wouldn't bet on it. You can speak with OhhWatALoser about their homozygous Pinstripe project to learn more about it.

I wouldn't call Super Spider lethal, as that is misleading. I would rather say it's not believed to be viable, as in a Super Spider can't be created. The whole "lethal" tag has made everyone think they're going to create dead white babies, slugs, or rotten eggs from a Spider x Spider breeding, which hasn't proven to be the case.

Also, please everyone understand I am not trying to prove a homozygous spider, so no need to wish me luck on proving you wrong.. If you had read what is in this thread, you will see that the evidence that I have gathered has shown that a homozygous spider is not viable. I am doing this breeding because I love the spider gene and have some spider combos that I want to make. I am also doing this pairing because I've heard completely opposite stories as to what will be the results of this clutch. Perfectly viable eggs vs. a clutch of slugs, rotten, dead white babies.

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Originally Posted by aLittleLessButter

By super, I mean a homozygous gene. Having 2 spider genes on the allele

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Apologies. I skimmed through and obviously missed that the discussion was more about the genetics and less about the visual. As far as the pairing goes, Kevin from NERD did a small blurb on it in this video.
https://youtu.be/-fhnR5YdGdI?t=1m1s

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Originally Posted by SmoothScales

Apologies. I skimmed through and obviously missed that the discussion was more about the genetics and less about the visual. As far as the pairing goes, Kevin from NERD did a small blurb on it in this video.
https://youtu.be/-fhnR5YdGdI?t=1m1s

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Thanks for the video! Haven't seen it before.

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Originally Posted by SmoothScales

Apologies. I skimmed through and obviously missed that the discussion was more about the genetics and less about the visual. As far as the pairing goes, Kevin from NERD did a small blurb on it in this video.
https://youtu.be/-fhnR5YdGdI?t=1m1s

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Haha it's all good. I've not seen this video either. Good input.

Update on the eggs: one is starting to dimple despite my humidity never dropping below 99% (on two digital gauges). Still candles with good veins like the rest though. Added some press n seal to be safe

Great thread and discussion! I've done Spider x Spider combos without any noticeable changes in fertility or viability.

Also something interesting to note, in terms of embryological development, both pigmentation and the neurological system develop from the neural crest. So, it's not that surprising that some morphs are linked with some neuro issues (spider, woma, champagne, powerball, super sable, etc). The neurological system is also very sensitive to heat, for example some temperature spikes during incubation, especially late incubation can cause hatchlings to have neuro issues. I incubate my eggs at a lower temperature and most of my spider combos have very limited neurological issues. However, this is just my own experiences and isn't based on any research or studies. It would be interesting to hear from those who have used a male Spider with really "bad wobble", incubated at a lower temperature and tracked the offspring to see if there's less issues.