How Many Morphs Are Created Through Inbreeding?

I've started to notice a somewhat not very talked about topic. The more i have looked into BP's, the more i notice very serious genetic problems with the more complex morphs. The Spider wobble didn't seem that much of a problem at first, that is until i started noticing some morphs inheriting "Duck bill" deformed mouths. I've even seen some morphs having blind eyes or even no eyes at all! Seems that the same thing which happened to dogs during the 1900's in Britain is now happening to BP's. Now i would greatly assume that the majority of you guys probably don't breed brother to sister or brother to mom, etc. but it does seem that has happened numerous times with other people and will continue happening. Is this some thing which is looked down upon?

It's very unlikely spider wobble happens from inbreeding as iirc the first one had a wobble. Most genetic mishaps are caused through two genes being together as some can be fatal.

Also inbreeding is safe for like the first 2 generations anyways. So even with new morphs they're usually done 2 generations then spread to other morphs. Not worthwhile to inbreed.

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Originally Posted by Naraku

Also inbreeding is safe for like the first 2 generations anyways. So even with new morphs they're usually done 2 generations then spread to other morphs. Not worthwhile to inbreeding

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What about when it's a brand new morph? For example the new scaleless BP's will they breed them together to increase the amount they have?

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Originally Posted by Naraku

It's very unlikely spider wobble happens from inbreeding as iirc the first one had a wobble. Most genetic mishaps are caused through two genes being together as some can be fatal.

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So the actual gene itself contains the wobble? Why do some Spider's of the same morph have varying degrees of the wobble in them?

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Originally Posted by Snoop_Dong

I've started to notice a somewhat not very talked about topic. The more i have looked into BP's, the more i notice very serious genetic problems with the more complex morphs. The Spider wobble didn't seem that much of a problem at first, that is until i started noticing some morphs inheriting "Duck bill" deformed mouths. I've even seen some morphs having blind eyes or even no eyes at all! Seems that the same thing which happened to dogs during the 1900's in Britain is now happening to BP's. Now i would greatly assume that the majority of you guys probably don't breed brother to sister or brother to mom, etc. but it does seem that has happened numerous times with other people and will continue happening. Is this some thing which is looked down upon?

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Spider wobble is not due to inbreeding, spiders are one of the most outcross mutation out there and not many people do spider to spider breeding as there is really no point to it. Wobble cannot be bred out.

Duck billing has nothing to do with inbreeding either even when out-crossing with different line the problem still occurs.

If you believe that the issues seen with Black Pastel, Spider, Champagne or other mutations are due to inbreeding you have greatly been misinformed by people who do not know what they are talking about ;)

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Originally Posted by Snoop_Dong

So the actual gene itself contains the wobble? Why do some Spider's of the same morph have varying degrees of the wobble in them?

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Because not all show the same degree of wobbling from very mild to severe.

A severe wobbler can produce a mild wobbler and vice versa, wobble can be mild as hatchling and severa as adult and vice versa, things such as temps, stress may also affect the severity.

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Originally Posted by Snoop_Dong

I've started to notice a somewhat not very talked about topic. The more i have looked into BP's, the more i notice very serious genetic problems with the more complex morphs. The Spider wobble didn't seem that much of a problem at first, that is until i started noticing some morphs inheriting "Duck bill" deformed mouths. I've even seen some morphs having blind eyes or even no eyes at all! Seems that the same thing which happened to dogs during the 1900's in Britain is now happening to BP's. Now i would greatly assume that the majority of you guys probably don't breed brother to sister or brother to mom, etc. but it does seem that has happened numerous times with other people and will continue happening. Is this some thing which is looked down upon?

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Dogs are very different from ball pythons. When breeding dogs youre trying to concentrate many polygenetic traits into a single animal. Your odds of this happening greatly increases when you line breed for generations and end up with a very limited gene pool. Inbreeding its self does not cause issues, but limiting the gene pool so severely magnifies any unwanted traits as well as any desired ones.

On the other hand with snakes the genetics we breed for are much more straightforward so outcrossing doesnt dilute the desired outcome.

Example: If there was 1 german shepherd in the world and you bred it to a lab, it would take a long time and a lot of inbreeding to get back to a "pure" shepherd. On the other hand if you take a pastel and breed it to a normal you get pastels in the first generation.

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Originally Posted by Snoop_Dong

What about when it's a brand new morph? For example the new scaleless BP's will they breed them together to increase the amount they have?

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Somewhat, but remember people also want to make combos with a new gene so new morphs have a lot of outcrossing done as well.

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Originally Posted by Snoop_Dong

So the actual gene itself contains the wobble? Why do some Spider's of the same morph have varying degrees of the wobble in them?

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Similar to why pieds can have varying amount of white, all spiders have wobble but the degree varies between individuals (the original spider wobbled). Actually spiders were one of the first popular ball pythons morphs so people bred them with everything they had, inbreeding had nothing to do with the wobble.

Ill also add this isnt a taboo topic at all. This exact conversation pops up on every forum a few times a year :)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Spider wobble is not due to inbreeding, spiders are one of the most outcross mutation out there and not many people do spider to spider breeding as there is really no point to it. Wobble cannot be bred out.

Duck billing has nothing to do with inbreeding either even when out-crossing with different line the problem still occurs.

If you believe that the issues seen with Black Pastel, Spider, Champagne or other mutations are due to inbreeding you have greatly been misinformed by people who do not know what they are talking about ;)

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That makes me very happy to hear! I honestly thought that due to the more complex morphs back in the day people inbred due to lack of other BP's with similar desired genetics. What about the morphs which have so severe wobble they die younger, what is the point of making those morphs?

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Originally Posted by aalomon

Dogs are very different from ball pythons. When breeding dogs youre trying to concentrate many polygenetic traits into a single animal. Your odds of this happening greatly increases when you line breed for generations and end up with a very limited gene pool. Inbreeding its self does not cause issues, but limiting the gene pool so severely magnifies any unwanted traits as well as any desired ones.

On the other hand with snakes the genetics we breed for are much more straightforward so outcrossing doesnt dilute the desired outcome.

Example: If there was 1 german shepherd in the world and you bred it to a lab, it would take a long time and a lot of inbreeding to get back to a "pure" shepherd. On the other hand if you take a pastel and breed it to a normal you get pastels in the first generation.



Somewhat, but remember people also want to make combos with a new gene so new morphs have a lot of outcrossing done as well.



Similar to why pieds can have varying amount of white, all spiders have wobble but the degree varies between individuals (the original spider wobbled). Actually spiders were one of the first popular ball pythons morphs so people bred them with everything they had, inbreeding had nothing to do with the wobble.

Ill also add this isnt a taboo topic at all. This exact conversation pops up on every forum a few times a year :)

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When a new morph contains a genetic defect does that lower their cost? Thank you by the way your post was very very helpful. Seems that with only basic grasp of inheritability that they teach in high school anyone could predict the genetics with BP's (Though it seems the more expensive/rare morphs usually have something more complex about them). So people don't inbreed BP's to make sure for example the lines of a pinstripe don't break off/separate? Oh, i thought it was taboo because no one ever really talked about it and some people would delete said comments haha but it seems comments were deleted because of annoyance not avoidance.

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Originally Posted by Snoop_Dong

That makes me very happy to hear! I honestly thought that due to the more complex morphs back in the day people inbred due to lack of other BP's with similar desired genetics. What about the morphs which have so severe wobble they die younger, what is the point of making those morphs?

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So far there are only certain combos that cause death - referred to as lethal combos - not single genes. The closest thing to a fatal single gene is desert females who can die of complications if bred, thats why female deserts are sold as pet only. Spider wobbles almost never interfere with the animals ability to function (even if they act funky). Youre more likely to hatch out a hatchling kinked from an incubation issue than have a spider that fails to thrive due to spinning.

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Originally Posted by Snoop_Dong

When a new morph contains a genetic defect does that lower their cost? Thank you by the way your post was very very helpful. Seems that with only basic grasp of inheritability that they teach in high school anyone could predict the genetics with BP's (Though it seems the more expensive/rare morphs usually have something more complex about them). So people don't inbreed BP's to make sure for example the lines of a pinstripe don't break off/separate? Oh, i thought it was taboo because no one ever really talked about it and some people would delete said comments haha but it seems comments were deleted because of annoyance not avoidance.

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It depends what the problem is. Sometimes people dont mind (spiders wobbling) and others it crashes the price of the morph (infertile desert females). Inbreeding does happen occasionally, but 1-2 generations is usually perfectly fine. Remember, inbreeding does NOT cause issues, it only exposes pre existing issues that had been hiding.

Usually if anything is deleted or ignored its because there are still a lot of people out there spreading bad information. Its still common for people new to the hobby to talk about breeding the infertility issues out of deserts by adding more genes. Comments along those lines are frowned upon because it will likely just lead to a lot of dead animals.

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Originally Posted by aalomon

So far there are only certain combos that cause death - referred to as lethal combos - not single genes. The closest thing to a fatal single gene is desert females who can die of complications if bred, thats why female deserts are sold as pet only. Spider wobbles almost never interfere with the animals ability to function (even if they act funky). Youre more likely to hatch out a hatchling kinked from an incubation issue than have a spider that fails to thrive due to spinning.



It depends what the problem is. Sometimes people dont mind (spiders wobbling) and others it crashes the price of the morph (infertile desert females). Inbreeding does happen occasionally, but 1-2 generations is usually perfectly fine. Remember, inbreeding does NOT cause issues, it only exposes pre existing issues that had been hiding.

Usually if anything is deleted or ignored its because there are still a lot of people out there spreading bad information. Its still common for people new to the hobby to talk about breeding the infertility issues out of deserts by adding more genes. Comments along those lines are frowned upon because it will likely just lead to a lot of dead animals.

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I know inbreeding doesn't always cause issues but lowering the genetic diversity of a line of snakes doesn't really benefit the BP right? On a side note i have a theory for the scaleless BP's; i don't think they can go on aspen bedding or anything with the potential to be sharp. From all i've seen from the big breeders who own them they only raise their BP's on paper or newspaper.

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Originally Posted by Snoop_Dong

I know inbreeding doesn't always cause issues but lowering the genetic diversity of a line of snakes doesn't really benefit the BP right? On a side note i have a theory for the scaleless BP's; i don't think they can go on aspen bedding or anything with the potential to be sharp. From all i've seen from the big breeders who own them they only raise their BP's on paper or newspaper.

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True, but one or two generations isnt going to make much difference in the long run.

You also cant really judge about scaleless yet, only a few (3 I believe) have been created. The fact that the 2 breeders who had them use the same substrate isnt something to draw a conclusion from.

This is usually what happens. You breed the mom or dad to a normal then breed those babies back if no new mute shows. Then if a new one does you can breed it to other genes as it would be worth more with more genes and they could produce reg mute babies anyways.

Really only issue with scaleless snakes is live prey. Other than that never heard of bedding issues. Newspaper is cheap and abundant so is popular. I use it for both my bps.

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Originally Posted by aalomon

True, but one or two generations isnt going to make much difference in the long run.

You also cant really judge about scaleless yet, only a few (3 I believe) have been created. The fact that the 2 breeders who had them use the same substrate isnt something to draw a conclusion from.

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I'm not drawing the conclusion from the substrate they use but rather they have stated that the scaleless BP are able to get cut more easily, which they recommended to not feed them live or have sharp things in the cage. I was drawing the conclusion from they stated their more susceptible to being cut and also they haven't tried anything other than newspaper (Because it's the cheapest) so they might be unaware that aspen could be possibly to sharp for them. I've recently moved to aspen and my BP seems to avoid going on the ground (He's a month old hatchling and most of his life he has been raised on paper). He hangs and climbs all over his hides ever since i put the aspen in his cage (His hides are rather tall and i put some geode rocks in with him to decorate and give him stuff to play with), I'm not sure he's just inhibiting his natural instinct to raise his head to view and watch for prey even though i fed him 2 days ago. I would recommend geode rocks they don't seem to get a lot of mention for cages, their insanely cheap and they are heavy enough to not get knocked over and can be climbed on. Last night my BP tho spent most of his time on top of his basking spot hide and i know for a fact his temperatures are perfectly fine so he's choosing to go on top on his own. I just thought it was abnormal because shouldn't he be digesting at the moment and desiring to go inside his warm hide? Unless he's now viewing the 2 rocks on top of his hide as a separate hide because their close to the roof, otherwise i'm baffled why he's acting this way unless he doesn't like the substrate. Maybe it's because he's finally shedding (he had i can only assume retained his shed because he had blue eyes when i got him and it's been about 4 weeks with no shed) and now he is starting to rip parts of his shed on his belly and various other places. His cage never drops below 70% and usually stays in the high 70's and never past 80%. Your opinion would be very useful for this.

Its hard to help without knowing your exact setup. How are you measuring temps/humidity? What is your hotspot and ambient? Tank or tub? Pictures of the setup also help!

Oh when i mean his hides are tall, it's just their close to the roof of the cage which isn't see through but the sides are which the BP had his head pointed throughout the night. It's just abnormal because he's never acted with way before the aspen. This morning i put him in his warm hide and just checked, he hasn't come out which is a good sign.

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Originally Posted by aalomon

Its hard to help without knowing your exact setup. How are you measuring temps/humidity? What is your hotspot and ambient? Tank or tub? Pictures of the setup also help!

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Ambient is 75F, Humidity is 86% (added more so aspen can absorb it), Basking is 95F-91F i have it set at 92F. It's a sterilite tub 29qt is the tub's size if i remember right if it isn't then it's 32qt but he loves his cage and doesn't show any signs of stress of being in it. I keep a thermal blanket over it so ambient temperature is partially above 75F and keeps it dark which he seems to prefer. When i didn't have the thermal covering the side by his warm hide he seemed to enjoy looking out of it. I also have a geode bridge connecting the 2 hides for him to climb up onto his hide with also 2 other geodes on each hide so he can rub or feel secure on them.

P.S just in case someone does get geodes for their cage i keep them upside down and mine aren't crystalized they are straight cut from old neighbors, they have some weird natural gloss type substance at blocking but showing what's inside so it's perfectly smooth with heavy weight but the top has the appearance of a actual rock (because they are rocks). I would not recommend you getting a geode with sharp crystals and putting it in your cage haha.

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Originally Posted by aalomon

Inbreeding does happen occasionally, but 1-2 generations is usually perfectly fine. Remember, inbreeding does NOT cause issues, it only exposes pre existing issues that had been hiding.

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I have to disagree with giving generation numbers, if there are no negative issues to be exposed, then why even put a number on it.

to the op: Genetic diversity is almost always a good thing, in the wild. Way better chance of adapting if variables changes, which they do in the wild. However in the "lab" type conditions we put our animals in now, outcrossing can be the very thing that starts a long line of hidden issues and not the inbreeding.

Now it would be ridiculous for us to just breed a certain stock and never introduce new morphs, this is what our hobby is about. So the best thing we can do is just breed responsibly, and if issues arise, do what we can to remove them from breeding stock and try to stop the issue from continuing.