Breeding Normals..is it a bad thing?

I've noticed an almost negative stigma surrounding the thoughts of breeding normals. Of course, my fiancee and I have already discussed breeding in the future, and she very much wants to start with our two normals. Why? Well, they have great disposition and awesome colors. Personally, I think one might be Het for Mojave (is that possible? ) and want to prove it out by a normal x mojave pairing. Thoughts?

Cannot be het for a co dom, not possible.

Breeding for normals is okay as long as you plan to keep them or have an outlet for them.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Cannot be het for a co dom, not possible.

Breeding for normals is okay as long as you plan to keep them or have an outlet for them.

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X2 what will you do with the offspring? I understand the desire to do so but you should understand clearly from the start it's not economically sustainable unless your fine committing hundreds of dollars to raising and caring for normals. It's not possible to have them pay for themselves like some other morphs, they are offered at shows for $20 and free from many breeders with any other purchase so the market is flooded with them and many are culled. As hobbyist we have higher cost then the breeders do per head each baby will need 5-6 meals at least before selling and ones that don't sell still need to eat, few months down the road when your 50-60 bucks in rodents a 300g normal is still only worth $20.

You could breed both your normals to other mates instead for example pair them each with a super, ALS, or recessive morph and then none of your offspring will be normals and you will at least likely be able to sell a few to cover some feeder cost. Another project would be taking the one you think looks different and breeding it selectively to see if that's a genetic or random mutation.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Cannot be het for a co dom, not possible.

Breeding for normals is okay as long as you plan to keep them or have an outlet for them.

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Okay thanks for clarifying. We don't know much, so breeding is a long ways away. Plus, we want an incubator ready before we even start pairing

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Originally Posted by guanagator

X2 what will you do with the offspring? I understand the desire to do so but you should understand clearly from the start it's not economically sustainable unless your fine committing hundreds of dollars to raising and caring for normals. It's not possible to have them pay for themselves like some other morphs, they are offered at shows for $20 and free from many breeders with any other purchase so the market is flooded with them and many are culled. As hobbyist we have higher cost then the breeders do per head each baby will need 5-6 meals at least before selling and ones that don't sell still need to eat, few months down the road when your 50-60 bucks in rodents a 300g normal is still only worth $20.

You could breed both your normals to other mates instead for example pair them each with a super, ALS, or recessive morph and then none of your offspring will be normals and you will at least likely be able to sell a few to cover some feeder cost. Another project would be taking the one you think looks different and breeding it selectively to see if that's a genetic or random mutation.

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That sounds like a much better project :) I like it! Thanks for being fair. I didn't think of it from that standpoint. I have a huge interest in basic morphs (Albino, Mojave, Butter, etc) and I really want to get my collection started off well so we can move from there.

I'm one of those that does not think very highly of breeding normals. The reason is there are so many. There really just isn't a great wanting for normals. When I was looking for my first snake (I only intended having one for a pet), I wanted something that looked different. If you're going to have that animal for 20+ years I'd rather it be eye candy. I stayed away from normals or morphs that looked like normals to my inexperienced eye for this reason. I went with a pinstripe. Now, with my available options around that same price point, I'd probably pick a banana.

To me breeding two normals together is like breeding two lower grade stock. In terms of horses, you can either breed sport horses, where they are usable and top of the line. Or you can breed backyard grade nobodies. (two normals) You're just going to put more mediocre stock out there to oversaturate the market with unwanted animals. When breeding, you should breed to achieve something. Not just breed to breed. With my crosses I breed to attain certain combos. I want to make eye candy. I want to obtain those combos that I simply could not afford without breeding it myself.

Most ball pythons have great disposition and variances in colors. If you're just wanting to breed two normals together to make more normals, why do you adopt some normals from other breeders? They're pretty much given away because no one is going to pay $50 in shipping to buy a normal.

And I feel the same way about the cheap gene pairings like pastel, lesser, pinstripe x normal female. You aren't going to be adding anything to the gene pool. You're going to make more very cheap animals that the market is already flooded with. Also feel the same way about the people just tacking on as many genes as they can, regardless that the quality of the genes aren't good. It's why I saved up money to start with higher value stock that's going to get me farther quicker. I also waited shopped around for quality examples of the morphs I wanted.

I would first suggest a lot of reading about genetics before you start breeding. Gene's like Mojave are not hets, they are a Co-Dom (although this term is not exactly right either) which means either the snake will be a Mojave both genetically and in phenotype (it would show as Mojave visually) or it will not be one at all.

Next I would ask why you want to breed normal's. What will their babies bring to the table for you? Are they superior examples of ball pythons? What would they add to the gene pool? What are your reasons for breeding them? There are lots of nice morphs out there with great temperaments that you could breed and re-home the offspring much more easily than you could a group of normal hatchlings.

Then I would ask if you are prepared to care long term for 4-6 more normal ball pythons? Possibly more if she has a large clutch.

Of course, if you want to breed the animals and you have the ability to care for the offspring then go for it. They are your animals and our opinions on the matter are really a moot point.

For me, I see no real need to deliberately add more normal animals to a market already saturated with them.

I would spend some time on world of ball pythons big list (warning can be simultaneously frustrating and addictive) look at the combos with morphs your interested in and use that to guide your pickups. Other advice is since you already have 2 males then get some girls! They are the foundation of any breeding program regardless of species. Gotta have the ladies and they will take the longest to get to breeding size/ age. Most females take 2.5 - 3 years at least while a male can be producing viable sperm before 6 months. One male can breed 10+ females a year, and I'm willing to bet a few scaleless hets bred a lot more than that last season.

So now I've established an answer to this(Thanks for all the feedback!!!), I have one more question. I have a little 300g Silver Streak male (2014) who is 'supposed' to be Liesen Line. I really want to prove him out once we get around to breeding. Is there a specific pairing that can definitely prove him out?

I belong to a lot of reptile selling Facebook groups for Canada/Ontario and it amazes me how saturated the market is, not only with normals but with higher end morphs. People can't sell their snakes because so many breed them. Every post is lowering prices and offering special deals because they just want to move the animals out. Normals are either given away (sometimes as an incentive for buying a higher end morph. Buy one get one free!) or sold for $10-$20.

I think Normals are adorable and I'll probably end up with one someday because they're so readily available and cheap. I don't think there's anything wrong with breeding them, personally, but I think you have to be prepared to keep them. If you produce 10 normal hatchlings, you might end up keeping them all because you can't sell them. As long as you're prepared to house and feed that many normals, all the power to you.

I think it would be cool to breed. It seems so exciting. But I would never do it just because there are so many ball pythons. I belong to 6 groups that are ONLY for ball python selling and people posts huge lists of available 'stock'.

What if you tried breeding a different kind of snake that's not readily available in your area? I've been searching desperately for a Rosy Boa but there literally aren't any breeders in my province!! So if I ever decided to breed an animal, that's what it would be, lol.

Nothing wrong with breeding two normals together, especially if it's only one clutch. If you were producing dozens or hundreds then it may be an issue. With that being said, I would make sure you have buyers lined up for the babies when they hatch unless you want to keep them all. Normals are very easily found in this industry and there is oversaturation of them so I try to minimize the chance of hatching them when I pair up my snakes. But if you're going to produce one clutch, it's not a big deal as long as you know what you are getting yourself into.

You've got a normal female already, breed him to her. If he is a Silver Streak all the babies should be Pastel with the possibility of Pewters thrown in. :) Everybody loves Pewters!

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Is it a bad thing?

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Well from my experience I can tell you that when you produce normal that are the by product of other pairings they are VERY hard if not IMPOSSIBLE to move quickly.

Considering that the retail is about $15/$20 and that the demand is very low for normal hatchlings, especially since you have several single gene starting at $25 to $75 (male and females), no it's not a good idea unless you want to lose money, if you are looking at the business end of it or at least the economics of it.

By the time you will sell them if you do you will have spend more money on food and and housing than what you will sell them for.

The only normal that do sell are proven adult females and the retail is about $50 to $100 based on size.

With that in mind if you want the experience why not I guess, but remember that the experience is not everything and that you might have to keep them for a long time and the question is are you prepared and can you afford it?

And if you do pair Normal to Normal you can always wholesale the hatchlings out of the egg locally for the pet trade or as feeders but you should check on that first if this is the route you want to take.

Ads that you see online asking for clutches are usually designed for people producing larger numbers.

So ultimately it's your decision, would I breed Normal to Normal? Nope, I don't even breed normal females anymore and if I did the only way I would consider it would be to breed them to a Super.

I like the suggestion of breeding another species altogether. For ex, there don't seem to be many Angolan Python breeders around.

Anyway, research, research, research... first!

Don't discount books either. They STILL contain information I don't see turning up on line. If you want to breed BP's, I would start with NERD's book (Kevin - something?), the $80 one that just came out. You may decide to purchase animals just for breeding - as every one else has said, quality matters from a business perspective.

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Originally Posted by hazzaram

I belong to a lot of reptile selling Facebook groups for Canada/Ontario and it amazes me how saturated the market is, not only with normals but with higher end morphs. People can't sell their snakes because so many breed them. Every post is lowering prices and offering special deals because they just want to move the animals out. Normals are either given away (sometimes as an incentive for buying a higher end morph. Buy one get one free!) or sold for $10-$20.

I think Normals are adorable and I'll probably end up with one someday because they're so readily available and cheap. I don't think there's anything wrong with breeding them, personally, but I think you have to be prepared to keep them. If you produce 10 normal hatchlings, you might end up keeping them all because you can't sell them. As long as you're prepared to house and feed that many normals, all the power to you.

I think it would be cool to breed. It seems so exciting. But I would never do it just because there are so many ball pythons. I belong to 6 groups that are ONLY for ball python selling and people posts huge lists of available 'stock'.

What if you tried breeding a different kind of snake that's not readily available in your area? I've been searching desperately for a Rosy Boa but there literally aren't any breeders in my province!! So if I ever decided to breed an animal, that's what it would be, lol.

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That's such a great idea! Rosy boas and Kenyans are hard to find around here. We wanted a female...hmmn..

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Originally Posted by SCWood

So now I've established an answer to this(Thanks for all the feedback!!!), I have one more question. I have a little 300g Silver Streak male (2014) who is 'supposed' to be Liesen Line. I really want to prove him out once we get around to breeding. Is there a specific pairing that can definitely prove him out?

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What are you trying to prove? That it is actually a Silver Streak? Or that he is carrying the Trick gene?


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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

What are you trying to prove? That it is actually a Silver Streak? Or that he is carrying the Trick gene?


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I don't know what she is trying to prove, but its not trick, I remember her thread asking about the Liesen line silver streak, and my conclusion that one of the genes was the liesen line black pastel

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Originally Posted by ajmreptiles

I don't know what she is trying to prove, but its not trick, I remember her thread asking about the Liesen line silver streak, and my conclusion that one of the genes was the liesen line black pastel

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It's not trick, I just want to prove that he carries the gene.

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

What are you trying to prove? That it is actually a Silver Streak? Or that he is carrying the Trick gene?


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Just that he is a silver streak AND he is carrying a Liesen Line gene

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Originally Posted by SCWood

Just that he is a silver streak AND he is carrying a Liesen Line gene

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if you were to breed it to a normal you'll get pastels and black pewters

Okay! So if I breed him later, and he produces otherwise, we know he's not silver streak?

the only thing that is certain with him is that every single baby he fathers will have the pastel gene in it

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Originally Posted by SCWood

Okay! So if I breed him later, and he produces otherwise, we know he's not silver streak?

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If you bought him as a pet, how much do you really care?

If I were purchasing an animal for a breeding project, I'd get one from a breeder I trusted. I wouldn't be proving out anything, I'd be following a known genetic recipe that has an expected probability of producing the desired morph.

The thing is, breeding gets expensive, and many of those costs will be fixed at a certain baseline no matter what genetics the parents have. Those costs will only go up, if you can't readily sell the babies. Better to have a sound plan to earn your money back in sales of animals that are in demand.

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Originally Posted by SCWood

It's not trick, I just want to prove that he carries the gene.

Just that he is a silver streak AND he is carrying a Liesen Line gene

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"Liesen Line" isn't a stand-alone gene, it's just a line of the black pastel morph. IIRC they are in demand because they hold their colors (darker black and brighter orange) better than many others, though you can find plenty of non-Liesen black pastels that look great also.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

"Liesen Line" isn't a stand-alone gene, it's just a line of the black pastel morph. IIRC they are in demand because they hold their colors (darker black and brighter orange) better than many others, though you can find plenty of non-Liesen black pastels that look great also.

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Thanks! I'm not really sure I want to breed. In truth, I was only considering it because I was told there's no way to own multiple snakes without breeding to help with the expenses..

You will never be able to determine if the snake has a Liesen Line Black Pastel. You can prove the Black Pastel in it, but you'll never be able to determine it's lineage.

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Originally Posted by SCWood

Thanks! I'm not really sure I want to breed. In truth, I was only considering it because I was told there's no way to own multiple snakes without breeding to help with the expenses..

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If that were the case no one would keep dogs, cats, horses, fish, boats, motorcycles, guns, muscle cars...

Yes you can keep multiple snakes without breeding them by getting a job that pays well enough to cover living expenses and your herp hobby.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

If that were the case no one would keep dogs, cats, horses, fish, boats, motorcycles, guns, muscle cars...

Yes you can keep multiple snakes without breeding them by getting a job that pays well enough to cover living expenses and your herp hobby.

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This. Thank you. I gotta keep reading on it. It's a 50/50 right now. Research is needed

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Originally Posted by SCWood

This. Thank you. I gotta keep reading on it. It's a 50/50 right now. Research is needed

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Before you do anything, budget. Determine:

What is your income/what are your expenses.
What do you have for an emergency fund.

If money is getting tight now, what can be sold, what expenses can be cut.
Where is money getting wasted.

After you figure out what can be trimmed, you can look at how you might earn more. Breeding is likely not the best way to do that - certainly not in the short term.

Another point is that breeding has costs that simply keeping doesn't. Equipment such as incubator + high quality thermostat, thermometer, and hygrometer, hatchling rack + thermostat, accessories like hides and water bowls, etc. will set you back a few hundred even if you find quality stuff locally.

Also you really need a good exotics vet that can see your prolapsed male or egg-bound female with little or no notice, and obviously some cash in the bank (or room on the credit card) so that getting your animal seen immediately on an emergency call doesn't mean you're eating Ramen for the next month and figuring out how to pay the rent.

breeding NORMALS isn't bad, look at Oct 5 in the breeding post section...

but don't listen to me though, forgot to add that..lol

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Originally Posted by ECechoHO

breeding NORMALS isn't bad, look at Oct 5 in the breeding post section...

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I think that, what they mean, is that breeding normal to normal is not ideal because it's harder to place the babies. Whereas, I could breed my normal female to my silver streak male and get NO normals therefore easier placement lol

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Originally Posted by SCWood

I think that, what they mean, is that breeding normal to normal is not ideal because it's harder to place the babies. Whereas, I could breed my normal female to my silver streak male and get NO normals therefore easier placement lol

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Not really easier single genes especially males are hard to place, Pastels are basically the new normal.

There are a lot of things to consider, not everyone that breeds will actually make a return that will allow them that break even and have a collection that pays for itself, at least not in the first year or so and maybe never especially with lower single gene mutations.......that's the reality if you want it to make a return allowing you to care for your collection you will have to be smart about it and plan it like a small business.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Not really easier single genes especially males are hard to place, Pastels are basically the new normal.

There are a lot of thing to consider not everyone that breeds will actually make a return that will allow them that break even and have a collection that pays for itself, at least not in the first year or so and maybe never with lower single gene mutations.......that's the reality if you want it to make a return allowing you to care for your collection you will have to be smart about it and plan it like a small business.

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Good to know. I think I'll just keep my babies to have them and let breeding go for now