Is pine really that bad/

I went crazy today trying to find out where I can get some cheap bedding for my snakes. As much a people seem to like it I hate news paper!

I called like 9 breeders today (also emails) and 6 of them claimed to use pine (other used newspaper or paper towel) because it seriously is hard to find aspen here, not really sure why. One breeder said that people tend to be afraid to use it because it smells and they think that it is a harmful chemical. <- This breeder has been a breeder for 22 years and he said he has been using pine for 15 of those years. He said he prefers it over aspen because it does not mold as quickly as aspen and the smell of the pine hides the smell of snake poo. But he is not the only breeder to say these things. I too used pine for the first yearish of snake keeping with absolutely no issues, but after reading tons of forums like this one, I quickly switched. But now that I cannot find aspen, I am thinking of going back to pine. My ASFs and mice have been on it for 4 years and nothing has happened to them and I have read articles and forums again saying how bad pine is for rodents... but I have not seen any of these issues with my own rodents. So what do you guys truly think? Are you just saying no because other people are against it, or have you used pine in the past with negative effects?

I use pine 🌲 on the snakes and the rats with no problems. Many other breeders do too!

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I haven't used it before but I was just reading a post on here the other day about this topic and I think the main thing is to be sure its kiln dried so the chemicals are gone then there aren't any problems. Maybe someone with experience will come and post soon :)

I still wouldn't use pine. Go to tractor supply, they have large bags of kiln dried aspen bedding very cheap. That what I use.

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Originally Posted by MidSouthMorphs

I still wouldn't use pine. Go to tractor supply, they have large bags of kiln dried aspen bedding very cheap. That what I use.

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I have, that is where I used to get my pine! No one carries Aspen... I am not kidding. I have gone EVERYWHERE! Even pet stores! The Aspen they have is SUPER dusty and is the pet smart brand ("best choice" or something like that). If you have ever used it, you will know what I mean...

And yes, the pine I can get here is kiln dried.

I've used both Aspen and pine. I like the Harlen brand labratory grade Aspen but it's 15 a bag locally. I switches to pine 🌲 because I can get it for 7.50 a bag. It may not seem like a big price difference, but when you use 6 or more bags a month, it can add up quick.

You can safely use any pine that has been kiln dried and is sold for the pet trade.

I use this
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...afba7e3159.jpg

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I don't want to use pine for the cheapness... which is just a bonus, but I would rather use aspen if I could find it. It has nothing to do with price, just how to find it. I have also looked online, that is where price is literally a problem. Things shipped by weight tend to get pricy. For one bad of 4 cubic feet, it cost $150 to ship two bags!... there is no way I could afford it.

Pine and Cedar still have the toxins in them whether they are kiln dried or not, that is why most breeders avoid them.

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Originally Posted by MidSouthMorphs

Pine and Cedar still have the toxins in them whether they are kiln dried or not, that is why most breeders avoid them.

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Aspen and Cyprus also contain phenols...

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I'm not sure what side is conventional wisdom in this debate - that pine is good or pine is bad.

I will throw this into the mix:

Jon and Owen at the EBV use pine.

Tim Spuckler uses it.

Brian Barczyk uses it.

I can go on and on.

So is the conventional wisdom the current internet majority opinion (pine bad) or the old (pine good)?

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Like all debates that have their roots in internet mythos, the Great Pine Debate has a fairly traceable arc.

For decades, snake owners used pine shavings for bedding. Pine shaving are all dried by some method or another during processing.

Then fairly recently some people who think they are researchers, doctors and biologists looked at data showing that human beings that worked in paper mills had higher incidences of respiratory illness...and that lab animals kept on softwood bedding had elevated hepatic enzyme levels.

The problem is that without a real scientific background, education or basic ability to draw real conclusions, they made the leap that pine must be bad....and their rantings quickly spread through the internet.

There were no studies showing the effects of pine of reptiles. The rat ladies, gerbil goddesses and bunny mistresses conveniently (or ignorantly) forgot to start screeching that the human disease data was linked to hardwood (aspen) as well as pine along with many other woods. Then they made large leaps in logic and drew connections that did not exist to pine and liver function. They cited studies that did not really prove or disprove their points.

To compound matters, they were prolific in their opinions and now you cannot do a Google search without reading some manifesto about the dangers of pine. So any half wit with an internet connection can scan over this drivel and then get thoroughly misinformed while thinking they are getting informed.

Bottom line: the debate was not a debate until recently, and with the exception of people who lie badly to make their dim-witted points, no one has ever had a snake die due to being housed on pine bedding. No one has ever offered proof that pine causes RIs in snakes, contact dermatitis in snakes, etc. Oh yes, some may vigorously claim it, but none can or are willing to prove it. People can be so married to their opinions.

On the other hand, several well known breeders, and lots of keepers with decades of experience use it without incident....and there are many species who live their lives in aromatic, phenol and resin rich pine litter in the wild.

Hope that helps.

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Pine and cedar have greater phenol content than cypress and aspen...

That being said, I'm not going to comment on the safety of pine bedding as I have absolutely no experience using it. Some people claim to have had problems from it, some people claim to have used it for years with no problems. It's just one of those things where you've got to weigh the evidence. Personally, I would probably switch to something like newspaper or paper towels rather than using pine, but that's just because I've used newspaper for my colubrids for years and it's free. Plus my snakes seem to enjoy getting between the pages.

The only thing I'd say definitely never use is cedar. It's kind of in a league of its own when it comes to potentially harmful compounds.

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Originally Posted by Tsanford

Aspen and Cyprus also contain phenols...









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It has been shown in studies that animals and humans exposed to pine and cedar are far more likely to develop respiratory infections. Although kiln dried is helpful, it never fully removes them all. But to each his own, if it works for you go for it.

But for those interested in aspen, here is a link. http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pro...edding-4-cu-ft

I've used both aspen and pine and have never had any issues

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Originally Posted by MidSouthMorphs

It has been shown in studies that animals and humans exposed to pine and cedar are far more likely to develop respiratory infections. Although kiln dried is helpful, it never fully removes them all. But to each his own, if it works for you go for it.

But for those interested in aspen, here is a link. http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pro...edding-4-cu-ft

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I live in Canada, buying from the US is OUT of the question... the cost for shipping alone would cost way over $100 for a single bag!

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Pine and cedar have greater phenol content than cypress and aspen...

That being said, I'm not going to comment on the safety of pine bedding as I have absolutely no experience using it. Some people claim to have had problems from it, some people claim to have used it for years with no problems. It's just one of those things where you've got to weigh the evidence. Personally, I would probably switch to something like newspaper or paper towels rather than using pine, but that's just because I've used newspaper for my colubrids for years and it's free. Plus my snakes seem to enjoy getting between the pages.

The only thing I'd say definitely never use is cedar. It's kind of in a league of its own when it comes to potentially harmful compounds.

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It costs me $10.50 for a roll of unprinted news paper. Pine costs $7.37 for 4 cubic feet which is compressed and expands. I already said this wasn't about cost anyway. The issue I have with newspaper and paper towel is the snakes hide under it and tend to attack my fingers during feeding day (as I lift up the paper to offer the rat). And they also poop on the tub floor. It would make more sense for my not to use any bedding at all if they just poop or pee on the tub floor anyway. I may not have as many BPs as some, but it would make life easier to not have to shower down each and every tub every time they defecate. Doesn't mean I wont do it just because I have pine, I would just have to do it less.

After posting this questions and receiving a few replies I decided to call two local Exotic Vets. One vet said it is completely fine and that they use for some of their reptiles as well. The other vet said to use it with good ventilation and to not buy "wet" pine. (So pine that has sat outside for long periods of time and may have gotten wet from rain).

Either way, I think I have a good few answers and I thank you all for them. I think this is a lot about opinion, rumors, myths, then actual facts from what I am reading. The resin part is the only fact I have received so far. Maybe I am wrong (I am always okay with being wrong as long as I learn something from it). The breeders here (where I live or in the area) have used pine for a long time it seems. Some people on this forum could argue till they were black and blue of why to and why not to use it. So far, the only reason I should not use (according to the people here) is simply because of a smell and resin. Aspen, as far as I am aware (which also grows naturally here) also has resin. So I am not too sure why people are worrying about one against the other as neither have full fledged proof of being harmful or safe? Simply saying "I wouldn't do it just because I have "heard" it is bad, seems to remind me a little bit about people having a fear of snakes. Scared of all snakes just because the media talks about legless killing machines, then the idea of "all snakes are bad" just because of a few bad stories when really these people are just not properly educated. And hey, maybe that person is me and not you but with people saying yes and no, it is kind of hard to get the proper education.

I think I am going to try it for my BPs. I use it for my rodents which my snakes do eat and nothing has happened as of yet... "Yet" can be a big word. If anything at all goes wrong, I will remove the pine from the tubs immediately.

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Originally Posted by BCS

Simply saying "I wouldn't do it just because I have "heard" it is bad, seems to remind me a little bit about people having a fear of snakes. Scared of all snakes just because the media talks about legless killing machines, then the idea of "all snakes are bad" just because of a few bad stories when really these people are just not properly educated. And hey, maybe that person is me and not you but with people saying yes and no, it is kind of hard to get the proper education.
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Well, I never said that... Not sure if you meant to, but that came across as kind of insulting.

I said that I'd personally use paper before I used pine; it's easier for me to obtain, and I don't have that many animals so cleaning isn't an issue. I didn't say I'd never ever use pine just because some people say it's bad; heck, I didn't even say you shouldn't use pine. I was very clear that I wasn't going to give an opinion on it because I have no experience with it, and I believe pretty strongly that people shouldn't give advice on things they know nothing about. However, there is some debate about pine, so if I had the choice between a similarly priced or cheaper substrate that there is no debate over that's what I'd personally choose. There's no logical fallacy or 'fear' in that, it's a perfectly reasonable way to handle the situation.

Maybe 'that person' is you and not me, because I didn't say 'yes' or 'no' or give you any information that could be misleading in any way. I just commented on the fact that there are people on both sides of the pine debate, and said what I'd personally do, but that you'd just have to keep researching and see what works for you.

Sorry, I just fail to see where my completely neutral reply has you convinced that I said I'd never ever use pine and you shouldn't either.

EDIT: My comment about cedar is based on seven years spent studying plant biology, not something I heard on the internet. I'd have to see definitive proof that that was harmless before I used it.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Well, I never said that... Not sure if you meant to, but that came across as kind of insulting.

I said that I'd personally use paper before I used pine; it's easier for me to obtain, and I don't have that many animals so cleaning isn't an issue. I didn't say I'd never ever use pine just because some people say it's bad; heck, I didn't even say you shouldn't use pine. I was very clear that I wasn't going to give an opinion on it because I have no experience with it, and I believe pretty strongly that people shouldn't give advice on things they know nothing about. However, there is some debate about pine, so if I had the choice between a similarly priced or cheaper substrate that there is no debate over that's what I'd personally choose. There's no logical fallacy or 'fear' in that, it's a perfectly reasonable way to handle the situation.

Maybe 'that person' is you and not me, because I didn't say 'yes' or 'no' or give you any information that could be misleading in any way. I just commented on the fact that there are people on both sides of the pine debate, and said what I'd personally do, but that you'd just have to keep researching and see what works for you.

Sorry, I just fail to see where my completely neutral reply has you convinced that I said I'd never ever use pine and you shouldn't either.

EDIT: My comment about cedar is based on seven years spent studying plant biology, not something I heard on the internet. I'd have to see definitive proof that that was harmless before I used it.

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Whoa, you seem to be taking this a bit personal... when I said you I meant everyone as group, you know, everyone that replied or may be reading... not just DVirginiana... I quoted your earlier post about the price of news paper... not about your opinion on pine, or cedar...

You just had mine quoted and it wasn't really clear that the only part you meant to apply to me was the bit about pricing. I was kind of confused by that, but it's all good.

Sorry! Did not mean to confuse you... made sense in my mind! Writing is a lot harder then actual speaking:gj:

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Originally Posted by BCS

Sorry! Did not mean to confuse you... made sense in my mind! Writing is a lot harder then actual speaking:gj:

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lol I try to be specific when I'm writing on forums and stuff, but the end result is really just me using more parentheses than any human ever should :cool:

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Originally Posted by BCS

I think I am going to try it for my BPs. I use it for my rodents which my snakes do eat and nothing has happened as of yet... "Yet" can be a big word. If anything at all goes wrong, I will remove the pine from the tubs immediately.

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This is the best thing you can do. Try it for yourself. There are enough big breeders and experienced keepers using it without issue, so you know your snake will not explode on contact with the pine.

I have everyone on pine now. I like it much better than aspen. Doesn't mold nearly as easily, it's odor protection is far superior to aspen, and it seems to be more absorbent as well. I think since you're giving it a fair shot, you'll be happy with it.

I don't have time to read the whole thread, but why not use cypress? Covers up smells, mold resistant, helps with humidity.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I don't have time to read the whole thread, but why not use cypress? Covers up smells, mold resistant, helps with humidity.

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Because Cypress is way too expensive! I used it for my boa and his cage takes three medium sized bags at $32 each! It is also something I have tried to find in bulk, but because I could not I decided to try the compressed coconut husk, but if it got too wet (say a snake spilled their dish) humidity would rise way to high and I would have to change it out immediately, not to mention super messy. I have tried pretty much everything. I originally wanted to use aspen, because it really is the only one I have not used for my BPs, and of course the pine but it is seriously no where.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I don't have time to read the whole thread, but why not use cypress? Covers up smells, mold resistant, helps with humidity.

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'Pure' cypress is almost impossible to find up here in the north, it's all a blend and you don't know what it's blended with (the bag usually says 'other forest products') I would not use it unless I knew exactly what was in it. I used to use it when you could still get pure cypress and it worked great, probably my favorite of the wood substrates but like I said, I won't use it anymore unless I knew exactly what was in it.

Ceder IS dangerous, I've personally seen animals that were kept on ceder that died very quickly, I used to have a carpet python that had been kept on ceder for only a short time and she had neurological problems for the rest of her life.

There is NOTHING wrong with using pine. Internet rumor is always saying that there are studies proving that it is bad, but for some reason nobody can actually find any of those studies, I have never seen one and I have looked, yet the rumors persist. I've used pine many times in the past, I know keepers (yes even BIG breeders) who have been using it continuously for decades.

I'm 'Up North' myself (where exactly 'Up North' are you?). I've been able to find shredded aspen very cheaply at Mills Fleet Farm being sold as horse bedding. I've used that quite a bit also.

I'm not currently using wood products because I just don't like the way I'm always getting wood chips all over the floor in my herp room. Other than that, wood works well. I'm currently using something called Bogus Paper (for some reason, I alway keep hearing Keanu Reeves voice in my head everytime I say that :D) It's thicker and more absorbent than newspaper and so far I haven't come up with any detractors for it.

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Originally Posted by BCS

Because Cypress is way too expensive!

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I'm in the south right on top of the supply and it'd be too expensive for me to use for more than a couple snakes. I just use it for my one BP.

Tried using it in an area of my turtle's cage for awhile to give her some new textures, but she would eat huge chunks of it, so that stopped pretty quickly. Turns out she had hidden some infertile eggs under her substrate so I didn't know to boost her calcium and she was trying to replenish it, but it scared me so bad I'm never putting it in her enclosure again!

wow, I can get pure cypress here for 6 bucks and the blends which I used to use are mixed with pine (I emailed and asked) and they were only 3 something a bag. Actually I think most of my animals are on the blend right now since they were out of the pure when I went last time. I like the pure better since they shred it better and there is no chunks to pick out, but I have never had issues on the blend.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

wow, I can get pure cypress here for 6 bucks and the blends which I used to use are mixed with pine (I emailed and asked) and they were only 3 something a bag. Actually I think most of my animals are on the blend right now since they were out of the pure when I went last time. I like the pure better since they shred it better and there is no chunks to pick out, but I have never had issues on the blend.

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Usually Cyprus is moist, and of it was blended with pine, is the pine moist too or is it kiln dried. I'd be more worried about the fresh wet pine thats blended than kiln dried pine.

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My $0.02

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...5/5/pet360.jpg[/URL]

Cheep and effective.

I use the Shredded Aspen for my Balls and the Aspen Sani Chips for my mice.

Wow, that's a pile of money to pay for substrate. I get that much shredded aspen for about 5 bucks.

The only woods I have ever found at the garden centers here are western cedar. At tack/farming stores, the only ones I have seem is spruce and pine. I live near Calgary AB. I switched them to pine today and we will see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Tsanford

Usually Cyprus is moist, and of it was blended with pine, is the pine moist too or is it kiln dried. I'd be more worried about the fresh wet pine thats blended than kiln dried pine.

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There not much pine in it, theres a reason they call it cypress blend rather than cypress pine blend. but of whats there yes it is wet. Every real study I have found on pine issues was respiratory related. Breath it in and stuff happens to lungs and other organs. I havn't found anything on the supposed deadly oil i hear talked about and drying it out makes it ok again. The whole pine thing, You can debate if it is an issue with rodents since they make dust, there a chance of them breathing it in. If I looked im sure I could find the study that suggest it might lower their life expectancy, I brought it up in a thread quite a few years ago and general consensus seemed to be they don't live long enough anyways to see the complications from it. With that said I keep my rodents on pine, odor control is better than anything else and is light weight (less weight, less garbage bags gaining attention).

As far as snakes, I don't see the risk with pine. They don't create dust to kick up.