Not looking good.. Deformed hatchlings

Our hatchlings began to pip on day 57. It's day 59 now and we took a closer look at the three that have come out... They all have bottom jaws like this... I can see another one pipping also has the same bottom jaw, so that's 4/7 eggs so far.. We had humidity issues about half way through incubation, so we turned off the fan that was in the incubator but there was no temp fluctuations in the incubator that we saw as the thermometer adjusted accordingly. We incubated at 88.7 and did the same last year without any issues. This is the first time we've bred the mother, but this is the second clutch for this father. Queen Bee x Pastel pairing.


http://i.imgur.com/LlucipI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/iP5DlXW.jpg

I've seen some people post about this same deformity in hatchlings in the past. Unfortunately, no one seems to know exactly what causes it. Even more unfortunate, but hatchlings like this don't seem able to eat on their own. It's a terrible situation to have to face with a shiny new clutch, but you may end up having to cull the deformed babies. Assisted feedings their entire lives is a terrible thing to subject a snake to.

Very sorry this happened, I wish you the best for the hatchlings still in the egg.

Doing some reading, as as you said, Daigga, no one really knows what causes it.. We have another clutch in the incubator that is about a week behind this one. We'll see what comes out in about a week..

That's heart breaking.

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Originally Posted by Daigga

It's a terrible situation to have to face with a shiny new clutch, but you may end up having to cull the deformed babies.

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;n; I can hardly imagine having to make this call. I know this is an awful subject, but if these babies cannot thrive and culling is the best (if heartbreaking) option, what is the kindest way to do so?

What a shame. I'm sure you'll get good support from these forums for whichever of the difficult options you decide to go with.
Better luck with the next clutch.

Our female that laid these eggs went off feed for about 10 months during the time we were breeding her. She lost a lot of weight and we thought she reabsorbed after her long fast. She surprised us with 7 good eggs, pretty small looking ones with one slug and a boob.

We turned off the fan in our incubator because the eggs were collapsing at day 10 for our clutch still due to hatch which was around day 19 for this clutch, but the temperatures never seemed to fluctuate, we didn't have any power outages, etc, so we're afraid this may happen again and we're not sure as to what the culprit is. Lack of air flow/oxygen due to the fan being turned off? No one knows and we don't know how to prevent this from happening again..

We've only ever hatched one other clutch and it was from the same incubator, same father, different mother. That clutch had the fan on but also didn't have issues with humidity so we were able to leave the fan on. We burped the eggs maybe once a week or less, took them from the mom the day they were laid, used cling wrap, really stumped as to what went wrong.. :(

Overall it's been a heart breaking process so far, we don't want to euthanize the hatchlings, but it'll have to be done if they cannot eat on their own..

So far it looks like 4 out of 7 have it. A spider has pipped and I couldn't see well, looks like he has it as well but not as bad. Two more still in their eggs...

If it is some incubator issue, I am now very afraid for the other hatchlings from the other clutch and still don't know how to fix this issue. The probe for the thermostat is kept in the egg tub to ensure the inside of the tub is the temperature it's supposed to be.

If they all have it and the other clutch turns out fine then it's a problem with that particular pairing. Sometimes it just happens, there's just no way to predict it.

Sadly with an underbite that severe they will not be able to eat on their own and starve (been there with 2 animals just like those) the only option will be euthanasia.

I'm very sorry to hear of your situation. It is unfortunate. Like others said it may simply be a result of the specific pairing and nothing you did or could have done would have prevented it.

If you choose to cull the animals which looks like it may be the most humane option, there is an option you might consider which could allow your animals to be of some benefit. I make this suggestion not to start an argument but just as one possible option. If you know someone who is raising kingsnakes then they may be able to use them as feeders. While it seems cruel and contrary to our ways as we all care deeply about snakes, it is no more so than the act of feeding our own animals live rats. I imagine a person who likes hamsters or guinea pigs would see our practices as cruel or barbaric. However we do it because it is what are animals require for food.

In the end this will be difficult regardless. But, by doing so, you could allow another breeder who cares about their animals to provide live feeders, which is something which they may not have access to on a regular basis. Also, I imagine it is not as quick a death as decapitation, but I wouldn't think it would be terribly drawn out. If a kingsnake will take a dead snake as a prey item, then by all means dispatch them in the quickest most humane way possible. I guess I just see this as a better option than just euthanizing and discarding them.

Again, I am sorry.

So, so sorry for the setback with the hatchlings. I really think it was a genetic anomaly of some kind. It sounds like you did everything correctly. Some things with these breeding operations are just out of our control. That is the way you should look at it and don't blame yourself. Best of luck with all your other projects. Stay in peace and not pieces.:)

Thanks to everyone for the advice and support.. I suspect all of them are affected as there are only two left I haven't seen yet. One is hiding his face very well in his egg and I suspect he is very shy of his overbite... (trying to make the best of this). I'll at least post a photo of them together once they're all out so everyone can enjoy their beauty. It's been a very bittersweet day..

I am so sorry for this! Poor babies, they are very beautiful either way! Pick wisely, and we are here for you! Again, I am really sorry about this, it is not your fault though, and you still hatched some amazing babies.

On our first breeding last year. We had seven clutches. Out of those clutches our 4th clutch was a male yellowbelly 100% albino to an albino female. She laid 8 eggs. All eggs were healthy and had viable veins. 20 days into incubation one of the eggs was rotten and died. The other came to day 57 and we cut them. They all appeared healthy. Until I started to noticed their lower jaws just like yours. They all ended up having this deformation. One baby died in the egg. And the 6 others all came out of their eggs. We tried to see if they would feed, but they couldn't. I don't even think that any of them really had tongues. It was probably the hardest clutch I ever had to witness. And even a harder one to make a decision to euthanize. Me and my boyfriend were sad. But I was an emotional sap. I would hold them and love them. But cry at the thought that they would never be able to drink or eat. And that I wouldn't be able to see them grow. My boyfriend called vets to get their opinions. All of them have given him advise on how to euthanize them. We tried to do it but it was hard. We failed the first time because we were weak and thought that maybe there would be a chance they could eat again. But we were wrong. Two other babies died under our watch and they died because we couldn't get them to eat I'm sure. We finally realized how wrong we were and euthanized them the way the vet suggested. It's hard to make that choice since how much we love animals. But we needed to do it the first time and never turned back, because then those babies that suffered would have suffered less pain. Dying from starvation and thirst was terrible. I hope to never have to witness this kind of clutch again. But I know that breeding comes with that territory and we will most likely have to deal with in at some point or another.

There was no incubation errors or peaks. All the other clutches were super healthy. They yellowbelly fathered another clutch and all the babies were wonderful as well.

We believe that either the pairing was bad or the female is not suppose to produce. But it was her first clutch and we don't know the true answers. But I am so very sorry that you had a clutch like this happen to you. My love and thoughts are with you.


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Originally Posted by Solarsoldier001

On our first breeding last year. We had seven clutches. Out of those clutches our 4th clutch was a male yellowbelly 100% albino to an albino female. She laid 8 eggs. All eggs were healthy and had viable veins. 20 days into incubation one of the eggs was rotten and died. The other came to day 57 and we cut them. They all appeared healthy. Until I started to noticed their lower jaws just like yours. They all ended up having this deformation. One baby died in the egg. And the 6 others all came out of their eggs. We tried to see if they would feed, but they couldn't. I don't even think that any of them really had tongues. It was probably the hardest clutch I ever had to witness. And even a harder one to make a decision to euthanize. Me and my boyfriend were sad. But I was an emotional sap. I would hold them and love them. But cry at the thought that they would never be able to drink or eat. And that I wouldn't be able to see them grow. My boyfriend called vets to get their opinions. All of them have given him advise on how to euthanize them. We tried to do it but it was hard. We failed the first time because we were weak and thought that maybe there would be a chance they could eat again. But we were wrong. Two other babies died under our watch and they died because we couldn't get them to eat I'm sure. We finally realized how wrong we were and euthanized them the way the vet suggested. It's hard to make that choice since how much we love animals. But we needed to do it the first time and never turned back, because then those babies that suffered would have suffered less pain. Dying from starvation and thirst was terrible. I hope to never have to witness this kind of clutch again. But I know that breeding comes with that territory and we will most likely have to deal with in at some point or another.

There was no incubation errors or peaks. All the other clutches were super healthy. They yellowbelly fathered another clutch and all the babies were wonderful as well.

We believe that either the pairing was bad or the female is not suppose to produce. But it was her first clutch and we don't know the true answers. But I am so very sorry that you had a clutch like this happen to you. My love and thoughts are with you.


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Thank you for your kind words. I have heard of this being more common with Albinos, but maybe that's just coincidence. The mother to this clutch is supposedly proven before and we got her and the sire from the same breeder. I'm not sure if they were bred together in the past, I will ask and see if I get a reply. Due to the severity of their condition it looks like euthanasia is the only option. I am not sure on what is the best way to euthanize and will have to do some research...

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Thank you for your kind words. I have heard of this being more common with Albinos, but maybe that's just coincidence. Due to the severity of their condition it looks like euthanasia is the only option. I am not sure on what is the best way to euthanize and will have to do some research...

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I honestly don't know what the right way is. But my boyfriend did a ton of research. And called the vets and talk to a lot of breeders. And we ended up doing it in the freezer. The vet said that's the way they do it. Reptiles are cold blooded and when they get cold they fall asleep. They said if we took them there and paid them the $75 for each animal that's what they would have ended up doing. I don't know if that was the right way. But that's the way we ended up doing it. And being in the position we were in and the emotional state we were in. We didn't want them to suffer anymore. I just hope that was the right choice. Either way it's a terrible situation. With difficult decisions


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*hugs* I don't know enough about this situation to offer advice, but my thoughts are with you :tears: and with the little ones.

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Originally Posted by Solarsoldier001

I honestly don't know what the right way is. But my boyfriend did a ton of research. And called the vets and talk to a lot of breeders. And we ended up doing it in the freezer. The vet said that's the way they do it. Reptiles are cold blooded and when they get cold they fall asleep.

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Several scientific studies over the last few years have shown this to be false and freezing has not been considered a humane form of euthanasia for several years. The reptiles become torpid but they don't go to sleep, they feel themselves freeze which is not only very painful, but because they're cold they can't move. Unfortunately a lot of vets haven't gotten the word so the misinformation that freezing is humane continues to spread.

Euthanasia should be as quick and painless as possible for the animal. For a snake you're looking at pithing or totally destroying the brain. It's not surprising that people shy away from it - it's brutal, it can be messy, and it's emotionally difficult to destroy a life that you planned months or even years to create.

Here's the group. There's a very tiny Killer Bee in the boob egg, still alive for now.. A beautiful Bumble Bee died in its egg last night, otherwise it looks like we got two Killer Queen Bees, a Super Pastel Lesser, Spider, and Pastel Lesser? (Or maybe it's just a Pastel Lesser and Lesser)

http://i.imgur.com/yNDLXDz.jpg?2

That's really unfortunate, it is a beautiful clutch otherwise. Did they all end up with the same mouth deformity?

Did they all have the deformation?

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Yes, they all have it severely. The Killer Bee in the boob egg seems to be the least affected, but I believe it's because he looks quite underdeveloped and his top snout is still short. I believe the most popular belief for this occurrence is the pairing of those particular parents causes it, but nothing is proven, and I don't think anyone actually bred the same two parents again to try to prove it.. Some people reported this happening when they had a power outage, and some people didn't have any incubator issues and it still happened.

:( I am so sorry for your loss. I hope your other clutch is unaffected.

I'm so sorry. :( They are beautiful hatchlings. I hope your other clutch is both beautiful and healthy!

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Several scientific studies over the last few years have shown this to be false and freezing has not been considered a humane form of euthanasia for several years. The reptiles become torpid but they don't go to sleep, they feel themselves freeze which is not only very painful, but because they're cold they can't move. Unfortunately a lot of vets haven't gotten the word so the misinformation that freezing is humane continues to spread.

Euthanasia should be as quick and painless as possible for the animal. For a snake you're looking at pithing or totally destroying the brain. It's not surprising that people shy away from it - it's brutal, it can be messy, and it's emotionally difficult to destroy a life that you planned months or even years to create.

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Not only that, but during freezing their cells explode pretty much. As he said, Pithing is the best way, Unless euthanized by drugs from vet.

Does anyone have instructions on how to pith a snake? I can't find any information on it.. Or would it be easier to use CO2? I'm not sure if that's what rodent breeders use, honestly wasn't prepared for something like this.

No one's ever prepared for something like that. You have my deepest condolences and I hope your other clutch turns out okay. Don't give up either, I personally wouldn't breed that female again if the male has sired another clutch that was okay. Or maybe put another male with her this year if nothing else to see if it happens again. I know that's not something you'd want top hop through again but I know I would want to know if it was an issue with my female. Again I am deeply sorry for your loss. They are beautiful babies and I wish you the best of luck with your future endeavors

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Breeder got back to me and said she has had a healthy clutch before with an Enchi male. He says he bred this same Queen Bee to her but she never took. She is capable of producing healthy clutches, and the Queen Bee has as well.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Breeder got back to me and said she has had a healthy clutch before with an Enchi male. He says he bred this same Queen Bee to her but she never took. She is capable of producing healthy clutches, and the Queen Bee has as well.

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Then I just wouldn't breed them together in the future. Really a shame that clutch is beautiful.

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Here's some new photos of three of the babies for anyone curious. They're in shed now. We're not euthanizing until we've determined if they can eat on their own.

http://i.imgur.com/9f1BGVI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/kaDTn6V.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/tRxSLRn.jpg

Ok, this is just speculation, but does anyone know if this could be a recessive genetic issue? What if both parents carry the issue, and they don't show it because it's recessive? I seem to recall reading about this somewhere before... statistically, if that were the case, not all of them should have the defect, but I have to wonder. If this is indeed a possibility, would it make sense to breed the parents again next season? It seems like you'd want to know if they were carrying this trait or whether it was just a random occurrence. I mean, nobody would want a recessive defect like that being spread around in their collection. To the best of my understanding, this is the first time these two have been paired up. Maybe the other animals these two may have been paired to previously just didn't carry the defect? Again, this is just a bit of guesswork and wondering, and of course it's not guaranteed genetic, but I do feel like I should ask about this.

Quote from Corey Woods: "I've had it happen here the odd time with clutches. Usually it's not just 1 in the clutch it's almost all of them. I've bred the same pairing year after year to see if it's genetic and it's not genetic. It just happens the odd time.

Most babies won't eat on their own. The best option, for multiple reasons, is to put them down."


Regards,
Corey

Good luck with them. I hope for the best


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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Quote from Corey Woods: "I've had it happen here the odd time with clutches. Usually it's not just 1 in the clutch it's almost all of them. I've bred the same pairing year after year to see if it's genetic and it's not genetic. It just happens the odd time.

Most babies won't eat on their own. The best option, for multiple reasons, is to put them down."


Regards,
Corey

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Update?

Thought I'd share my favorite hatchling of the bunch. Super Pastel Lesser?? Are those paradox markings on its lower half?

Babies just shed yesterday.

http://i.imgur.com/vxi5ACVl.jpg

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Thought I'd share my favorite hatchling of the bunch. Super Pastel Lesser?? Are those paradox markings on its lower half?

Babies just shed yesterday.

http://i.imgur.com/vxi5ACVl.jpg

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Acting normal despite deformities?

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Originally Posted by SCWood

Acting normal despite deformities?

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So far they don't move around much. They've only been in their separate tubs for a day so maybe they're just adjusting. We haven't observed them drinking. They don't appear to have tongues. We put a live hopper mouse in each of their tubs and they were not interested/frightened by it. We don't have high hopes but will try one more feeding this week. We're not sure if they can even smell the prey.

Wow....how sad.

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This is so sad.


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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

So far they don't move around much. They've only been in their separate tubs for a day so maybe they're just adjusting. We haven't observed them drinking. They don't appear to have tongues. We put a live hopper mouse in each of their tubs and they were not interested/frightened by it. We don't have high hopes but will try one more feeding this week. We're not sure if they can even smell the prey.

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Best wishes! Know you're doing the best you can!

I don't think they could smell them. My clutch of deformed babies acted like they wouldn't move. Until the rat pinkie was in there crawling. And they seem to run away from them. Do whatever you can to make them feel comfortable. They are such a wonderful clutch. I do hope for the best.


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This clutch definitely brings me back to a sad place. I remember holding all 6 babies of mine and looking at how beautiful they are.

So sad.


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If they just shed a day or so ago then it's too soon to try feeding them. Once they shed they go into their own tubs in a hatchling rack, wait a week, then offer the feeder.

Even perfect babies can take a few weeks after shedding before they decide to eat.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

If they just shed a day or so ago then it's too soon to try feeding them. Once they shed they go into their own tubs in a hatchling rack, wait a week, then offer the feeder.

Even perfect babies can take a few weeks after shedding before they decide to eat.

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Four of the five passed away last night.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Four of the five passed away last night.

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I'm sorry. :(

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Four of the five passed away last night.

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I'm so sorry :tears: You did what you could.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Four of the five passed away last night.

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Chin up! You tried your best and that makes you a great person!

Did the final baby end up passing as well?

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Originally Posted by Kinkade

Did the final baby end up passing as well?

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Yes, just a day after the others did. Some of them turned reddish pink within hours after dying. My boyfriend's Dr. brother said it sounded like hemorrhaging. I'm not familiar with what happens when they die, but it was very odd..

Sorry to hear.


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