Controversy is great

So I follow several reptile keepers on Instagram. One of them has a king cobra, and a while ago he posted it eating a ball python. I'm fine with that, I figured it was to give the cobra a varied diet of what it may have in the wild (not ball pythons but it may get other snakes). However, this was a pied (I think, lighting was off. Definitely a morph nonetheless) and I can't fathom why someone would pay extra money for a ball python morph than to just get a normal. I'm not crying over the aesthetics, I'm confused as to why someone would spend more money for something that's equivalent to something cheaper. Today he posted it eating some other morph. Can't identify the morph but it was yellowish creamy. In that post he basically said that if what he does offends you to stop following bla bla bla.
I highly doubt that he is breeding his own ball pythons and raising the babies for three years just to use as feeders. So what do you guys make of this?


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Well we have a special place in our hearts for all things that slither, the fact is some species thrive eating others. So from that stand point it is food plain and simple and I have no issue. As far as them being morphs, you are right in that there is no difference. It's just that you're placing a price tag on it. Some people have the kind of cash they can spend $600 on a shirt. I don't/won't but that's me. If they do/can then again, who are we to take issue? That's capitalism.

By posting the second picture I would assume he was just looking to offend people intentionally and would have unfollowed him without a word. People will do what they do, and as long as it was done humanely I suppose there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't see why rubbing those things in other people's faces should be acceptable practice.

As for feeding fairly expensive morphs, I don't understand that either. Sounds like he just wanted to increase the shock value of the pictures.

Someone wants attention...................
I have fed off to a king snake I use to have, normal and morphs that had issues when hatched.
Its the cycle of life but only an idiot would make posts like that and throw it in someones face.

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

Well we have a special place in our hearts for all things that slither, the fact is some species thrive eating others. So from that stand point it is food plain and simple and I have no issue. As far as them being morphs, you are right in that there is no difference. It's just that you're placing a price tag on it. Some people have the kind of cash they can spend $600 on a shirt. I don't/won't but that's me. If they do/can then again, who are we to take issue? That's capitalism.

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But what does one have to gain from that? That's what I don't get. It would be like buying an expensive car just to push it into moving traffic. I take no offense from his posts, I just find it odd that someone would do that regardless of how much money they have. My local reptile shop has pet coral snakes (the employees and owner's pets) and they feed them baby corn snakes that won't accept food. It's not for fun, no one is ever watching them eat it. But this guy is spending extra money for his.

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Originally Posted by Daigga

By posting the second picture I would assume he was just looking to offend people intentionally and would have unfollowed him without a word. People will do what they do, and as long as it was done humanely I suppose there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't see why rubbing those things in other people's faces should be acceptable practice.

As for feeding fairly expensive morphs, I don't understand that either. Sounds like he just wanted to increase the shock value of the pictures.

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Shock value is the only thing that makes sense but it doesn't seem like that's what he's going for.



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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Someone wants attention...................
I have fed off to a king snake I use to have, normal and morphs that had issues when hatched.
Its the cycle of life but only an idiot would make posts like that and throw it in someones face.

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But he's feeding snakes that are like 3 feet long. If it's born with an issue and would inevitably die then may as well be a feeder IMO. But a healthy full grown snake...


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Originally Posted by Citrus

But what does one have to gain from that? That's what I don't get. It would be like buying an expensive car just to push it into moving traffic. I take no offense from his posts, I just find it odd that someone would do that regardless of how much money they have. My local reptile shop has pet coral snakes (the employees and owner's pets) and they feed them baby corn snakes that won't accept food. It's not for fun, no one is ever watching them eat it. But this guy is spending extra money for his.




Shock value is the only thing that makes sense but it doesn't seem like that's what he's going for.



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I think you're right about shock value, and perhaps its a little bragging about being in a financial position to feed expensive animals. For some the attitude is "what good is having money if you can't flaunt it?" Regardless, it is their prerogative however misguided we may believe it to be, and the fact we are posting about it just gives it weight. Ever hear the saying, "There's no such thing as good or bad publicity, it's just publicity"?

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Originally Posted by Daigga

and as long as it was done humanely

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Which is important to note that live feeding certainly is not. I'm not saying I'm completely against live feeding, but one would have to be seriously oblivious to say it's a pleasant way for an animal to kick the bucket.

As for the poster who's feeding BP morphs to his cobra, it's clearly done out of spite. For example, it would be like me feeding a parakeet to a snake then posting it on a parakeet forum because I hate parakeets.
He's the typical kind of jerk who's responsible for the kind of dividing that the reptile hobby experiences, and the kind of behavior that, at times, makes me feel less supportive of the herpetocultural community. He's not doing the hobby any favors by pissing off other reptile keepers, to say the least.



P.S. I don't actually hate parakeets.

I don't mean to double post (can't edit my post) but my aforementioned statement on feeding morphs out of spite is done under the assumption that the animal was alive and healthy, and said keeper was out to offend. There's many king cobra keepers though who end up getting frozen ball pythons (somehow) that die of other means and to use as food for their kings, which is not bad at all. Can you PM me who the person was? I think I might know who you're talking about, and if I'm correct, he's certainly not a jerk at all and it would be a misplaced assumption to think he was doing it for the shock value.

I find it difficult to believe that any keeper would spend hundreds of dollars on mature, healthy animals just to feed them off when perfectly normal, inexpensive animals of the same species are available. IF that's true, then that person has way more money than sense.

The truth is very likely that he gets frozen feeders in from breeders who have had animals die off. A dead pied is not worth any more than a dead normal.

Now....if he's posting pictures like that just to get a rise out of ball python fans, that's another matter entirely. If he is implying (or outright stating) that he paid full retail price for those animals just to feed them to his cobra....then he's not only a jerk, but a dishonest, lying jerk (in all likelihood).

I've got no beef with people feeding their carnivorous, predatory animals with the closest animals to natural prey they're able to get. That means snakes for king cobras....and with the prevalence of ball pythons in the pet trade, and the relatively large size of them for older cobras, it makes a lot of sense that they'd be a good source of food. But I think ANYone who claims to love and respect animals/reptiles/snakes and then turns around and mocks an entire group of like-minded enthusiasts just because they enjoy one particular species.....well, that person is no true lover of animals, I believe. They are most likely in it for the novelty and because it makes them somehow "special" and able to brag about the "big, dangerous" pet they have.

Let me clarify one thing though....I don't have a problem with folks who playfully make fun of the ball python craze. That's something else entirely. I just mean the people who deliberately set out to cause strife and try to make others feel crappy because they happen to like something different.

Food is food and a snake got to eat even those eating other snake. As far as mutation versus normal it would be like people having issues feeding dumbo, hooded or blue rats versus albinos who are commonly used as feeders :rolleye2:.....The paint job does not make the animal superior.

Kinked babies, those failing to thrive are often used to feed other snakes, some healthy animals bred as feeders are used to.

In this case the animal used was probably unhealthy or not feeding.

Now taking pictures or videos of feeding is not something I care for whether people feed snakes or rats, it contributes NOTHING, it only gets people upset, whether done on purpose or not and is not the best publicity for this hobby. We all know how snakes eat no one needs to make a show out of it, only those in desperate need of attention.

I believe I know who you are talking about. That being said he works at a reptile shop, and a lot of the snakes hes posts belong to said shop...the snakes aren't alive when he feeds them to the cobra. He isn't buying morphs just to feed. He has posted pictures of normals being fed as well. He feeds what feeders come his way. He isn't buying high priced morphs just to feed off. He also got a lot of flack for feeding a beardie to an imported golden vine snake, but he had tried for weeks to get it to eat anything else and nothing would take. I know it gets a rise out of people, but as long as it's humane, then it is what it is....I see it as no different than a rat lover seeing a pic of a BP eating a rat.

It's his snake, he can feed it what he wants. Taking pictures of it and posting it on the internet just shows a pathetic need for attention. I could take pictures of my cat taking a crap and post it up on the internet with the disclaimer that 'it's just a natural bodily function and if you are offended by it you don't have to look' But it would still be a really stupid thing to do.

On a side note. If you read through some of his posts he says he shows the good and bad side of owning certain animals, and what comes along with owning certain exotics...

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Now taking pictures or videos of feeding is not something I care for whether people feed snakes or rats, it contributes NOTHING, it only get people upset whether done on purpose or not and is not the best publicity for this hobby. We all know how snakes eat no one needs to make a show out of it, only those in desperate need of attention.

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^^That, too.^^

I am trying to figure out where some people are coming from here, (not trying to argue this is a legitimate question) so for those that said it's a cry for attention...is it considered a cry for attention when I post growth updates for my childrens python and include a picture of him eating a hopper or pinky? Because I can assure you, at least on my end, it is not, it is posting updates and tracking his growth.

Just read through the whole post and don't see the point of it at all. Just gets people riled up for no reason. We've been over this before. Yes, people use BPs as feeders. Do people who own BPs like it? Probably not...

At the end of the day, if i worried about all the dumb stuff i see on instagram, I'd probably have a heart attack.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

Yes, people use BPs as feeders. Do people who own BPs like it? Probably not...

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People who keep them strictly as pets don't. People who breed more than a few a year do, as it means even their stills, kinked babies, culls, etc. have value.

A local pig farmer freezes his stillborn piglets for me (retic food) and was very surprised when I offered to pay for them, as in the past they'd just been tossed onto the compost pile.

Ok, here's what I've found out:

I dug deeper into the account because I really hate to have dislike towards people. I went months of photos back, and it turns out he normally feeds it frozen ball pythons. Don't know why he had to feed live but I honestly think I misjudged him. The guy does care about his animals and isn't flaunting his money. Still, the last two posts of it has it eating a live snake, and morphs. But seriously I messed up again and this thread was in no way an attempt to upset you guys. I just wanted to know if it was common practice to spend extra money on bp morphs to feed them to other animals.
Edit: jclaiborn, I think that is the same person. The last two posts of it, I'm pretty sure the snakes are alive as the video with the pied it can be seen moving before he grabs it with the tongs. But it's clear after further research that I misjudged the guy


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Originally Posted by Citrus

Ok, here's what I've found out:

I dug deeper into the account because I really hate to have dislike towards people. I went months of photos back, and it turns out he normally feeds it frozen ball pythons. Don't know why he had to feed live but I honestly think I misjudged him. The guy does care about his animals and isn't flaunting his money. Still, the last two posts of it has it eating a live snake, and morphs. But seriously I messed up again and this thread was in no way an attempt to upset you guys. I just wanted to know if it was common practice to spend extra money on bp morphs to feed them to other animals.
Edit: jclaiborn, I think that is the same person. The last two posts of it, I'm pretty sure the snakes are alive as the video with the pied it can be seen moving before he grabs it with the tongs. But it's clear after further research that I misjudged the guy


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I went back and watched the pied video again....few times actually, just because I was now curious. I think it's moving because he is pushing it with the tongs....if you look at the snakes stomach it looks like it had a necro done because it is cut open...no blood etc. Either way I agree I have followed him for a while and for what it's worth I agree he does care....I'm sure it pisses a lot of people off...if you go far back he initially answered every question that came his way...but lately it seems like he is over answering the same questions over and over.

See... I don't mind them using them. Everything gotta eat. I would just mind them causing suffering for no reason... If they're f/t it's the same as our mice. I just wouldn't go to a BP forum or FB group and post it. We had a guy do that on FB in a BP group. Insta-ban... That's just rude....

F/T snakes because king cobras got to eat = Nothing wrong with that

Live morphs because someone hates ball pythons and wants to bash the BP keepers = Not okay and not cool.

I'll leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Bluebonnet Herp

F/T snakes because king cobras got to eat = Nothing wrong with that

Live morphs because someone hates ball pythons and wants to bash the BP keepers = Not okay and not cool.

I'll leave it at that.

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This. This is what I thought was going on. But I guess I was wrong about what it was. Don't know how one acquires f/t morphs, maybe someone donated their pet or a retired breeder? But it's jut that he was feeding his king cobra. I think what a lot of it was was something I must have missed. I get the impression that a lot of people take offense towards him and attack him in the comments, causing him to be defensive by saying "if it offends then unfollow." I assume that he just gets what ever f/t snakes he can get his hands on. I went all the way back into his earlier photos and there were normals also.


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Originally Posted by Citrus

Ok, here's what I've found out:

I dug deeper into the account and it turns out he normally feeds it frozen ball pythons.

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And so just how MANY times has this guy felt the need to post feeding pictures? Does he think that the people who follow him are still unclear on the idea that cobras are ophiophagous?

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

I went back and watched the pied video again....few times actually, just because I was now curious. I think it's moving because he is pushing it with the tongs....if you look at the snakes stomach it looks like it had a necro done because it is cut open...no blood etc. Either way I agree I have followed him for a while and for what it's worth I agree he does care....I'm sure it pisses a lot of people off...if you go far back he initially answered every question that came his way...but lately it seems like he is over answering the same questions over and over.

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Hmm. I don't keep hots so I probably don't have much place to comment on keeping practices, but if a fully grown snake dropped dead I would hesitate to feed it off. Kinks and abnormalities out of the eggs are just things that happen, but for formally healthy adult to kick it I would be worried about possibly spreading disease. Are the two species just dissimilar enough that the risk for passing infection isn't there?

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Originally Posted by Lizardlicks

Hmm. I don't keep hots so I probably don't have much place to comment on keeping practices, but if a fully grown snake dropped dead I would hesitate to feed it off. Kinks and abnormalities out of the eggs are just things that happen, but for formally healthy adult to kick it I would be worried about possibly spreading disease. Are the two species just dissimilar enough that the risk for passing infection isn't there?

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It looks like all the feeders had necros done...also they aren't all full grown....some looked somewhat kinked, some looked fine. Again I think it's just what comes his way.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

And so just how MANY times has this guy felt the need to post feeding pictures? Does he think that the people who follow him are still unclear on the idea that cobras are ophiophagous?

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Not that many...he posts all the animals that he cares for at the facility he works at...very few are actually feeding pictures, even fewer are of the cobra feeding...most are just the animals or him handling them

Personally, I don't like seeing Ball Pythons being used as feeders, regardless of what their genetic composition is. To me, a Normal is just as "valuable" as a morph costing several hundreds of dollars in this context, since they're all living things, and experience pain and fear in equal degrees, just as they would hopefully respond favorably in similar measure to kind and caring treatment. As an aside, I really couldn't care less that my bp isn't some celebrated morph. That makes him all the more "natural" (as well as beautiful) to me.

Wait.. I thought these were FLAVORS!

Cinnamon
Bubble Gum
Cajun Butter
Buttered Rum
Chocolate Chip
Chocolate Chunk
Candy
Cantaloupe
Caramel
Banana
PIE-d
Mocha
Chocolate
Butter
Champagne
Lemon blast
Java
Orange Dream
Apricot
Banana Butter
Brown Sugar

:confusd:

All this over a guy feeding stillborn or clearly passed snakes to another snake....lol.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

All this over a guy feeding stillborn or clearly passed snakes to another snake....lol.

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I don't care what he feeds his snake. What do you think his thoughts were in POSTING PICTURES of his snake eating a pied ball python?

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I don't care what he feeds his snake. What do you think his thoughts were in POSTING PICTURES of his snake eating a pied ball python?

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I can't speak for what his thoughts were.

It has been established that it was not live, and that he does feed his animals still born or otherwise euthanized ball pythons that have been donated to him.

At this point, I'm ASSuming that he may be posting pics because so many people have had a collective rectal prolapse over him doing so. Then again, maybe not...

When the ball python community gets off their soapbox and expresses the same level of angst over the gratuitous pics of rats and mice being fed to ball pythons on the internet, then I'll stop smiling about this.

While we're at it, we spend pages upon pages attacking someone over his insistence that only f/t prey should be fed to pet snakes and that doing otherwise is inhumane and barbaric. Weeks later several of those same defenders of the right to feed snakes live mammalian prey go ape shib over the FALSE idea that some guy is feeding live ball pythons to his king cobra.

Actually, I take that back...maybe I've figured out what he was thinking...;)

I don't even know who this person is. I'm not a follower of instagram and have not seen these pictures myself nor do I wish to. I've always believed that a person should feed their animals whatever gets them eating and keeps them healthy and their natural prey is quite often the best for them. But I not a fan of posting feeding pictures or videos no matter what the animal is being fed whether it's mice, rats, snakes, lizards gerbils or whatever. Yes, you could argue that some of these are educational and instructive but the overwhelming majority of feeding videos that I've seen posted on youtube or elsewhere were solely for the enjoyment of watching an animal die. These are the kinds of videos posted by people who think that C0ck fights are a lot of fun and dog fighting is a wonderful sport. In short, the types of people who should not be keeping animals of any kind.

I'm not claiming that the person posting these videos has sunk to that sort of depravity, if he's not feeding a live piebald (as was implied in the first post) to his cobra but is instead putting an already dead animal to a use other than throwing it out and wasting it, then I see nothing wrong with that. But WHY POST A VIDEO OF IT?

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I don't even know who this person is. I'm not a follower of instagram and have not seen these pictures myself nor do I wish to. I've always believed that a person should feed their animals whatever gets them eating and keeps them healthy and their natural prey is quite often the best for them. But I not a fan of posting feeding pictures or videos no matter what the animal is being fed whether it's mice, rats, snakes, lizards gerbils or whatever. Yes, you could argue that some of these are educational and instructive but the overwhelming majority of feeding videos that I've seen posted on youtube or elsewhere were solely for the enjoyment of watching an animal die. These are the kinds of videos posted by people who think that :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r: fights are a lot of fun and dog fighting is a wonderful sport. In short, the types of people who should not be keeping animals of any kind.

I'm not claiming that the person posting these videos has sunk to that sort of depravity, if he's not feeding a live piebald (as was implied in the first post) to his cobra but is instead putting an already dead animal to a use other than throwing it out and wasting it, then I see nothing wrong with that. But WHY POST A VIDEO OF IT?

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The snake is dead...it was not alive. So this was not a snuff video of any sort.

He is also not a serial poster of these types of videos.

Again Mark, the over-reaction to this speaks more volumes than the actual event itself...

As an aside, I plan on asking the same question (WHY POST A VIDEO OF IT?) to everyone who posts a video or a pic of their ball python eating a F/T rat or mouse. I am 100% in agreement with you on questioning the need for such pics/vids:gj:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

The snake is dead...it was not alive. So this was not a snuff video of any sort.

He is also not a serial poster of these types of videos.

Again Mark, the over-reaction to this speaks more volumes than the actual event itself...

As an aside, I plan on asking the same question (WHY POST A VIDEO OF IT?) to everyone who posts a video or a pic of their ball python eating a F/T rat or mouse. I am 100% in agreement with you on questioning the need for such pics/vids:gj:

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None of that was clear according to the first post in this thread.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

None of that was clear according to the first post in this thread.

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No.

It was not.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

When the ball python community gets off their soapbox and expresses the same level of angst over the gratuitous pics of rats and mice being fed to ball pythons on the internet, then I'll stop smiling about this.

While we're at it, we spend pages upon pages attacking someone over his insistence that only f/t prey should be fed to pet snakes and that doing otherwise is inhumane and barbaric. Weeks later several of those same defenders of the right to feed snakes live mammalian prey go ape shib over the FALSE idea that some guy is feeding live ball pythons to his king cobra.

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It amazes me how these same people think that somehow a dead ball python feels more pain than that of a living rat. Dead meat doesn't suffer, regardless of whether it's a rat, cow, snake, or cat. Whether an animal needs to be given live food is the important subject of the debate, and one that all too often gets overlooked over one's prejudice for a specific species.
I gave up debating the moral aspect of live feeding a long time ago. The reptile keeping community doesn't always attract the brightest or logical bunch, and, as you said, a lot of people will get a bug up their butt if you even mention that rats suffer when a BP constricts it.
I will admit though - the number of O. hannah and even king snake keepers who feed live ball pythons to their snakes just to film it and get a kick out of pissing off ball python keepers is too high as it is, and is probably the reason why these ASSumptions are made. Whether it's this special group of trolls, or live rats to a ball python, reptile keepers need to reevaluate why they feed live vertebrates as food and if it's really necessary or ethical out of respect for that prey animal. (Insects to insectivores are another story.)

The "video" is a short 16 second max shot of him pulling it towards a hide and the cobra grabbing on, no music playing, no words no cheering or anything like that. His reasoning for posting feeding pictures/videos (which are far and few between), which he has stated in some of his posts (not agreeing or disagreeing with either side here, just stating what he posted), was that he likes to show all aspects of keeping certain animals, and not edit out the "bad", so people can make educated decisions on aquiring certain animals and what lenghts you sometimes have to go through when caring for said animal. He seems to deal with some more exotic species, at the shop/breeder he works at, and many at times are imports that will not accept F/T or even rodents at all. I think the way the OP made the initial statement made it come a cross a lot worse than it really is.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

None of that was clear according to the first post in this thread.

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Yeah that's my mistake. I thought that the last two feeding videos were of live snakes. Since they happened to be morphs. I thought/ wanted to find out if it was common for people to sped extra cash on a ball python morph to sort of bash ball pythons. Like it was to say " look I have a real snake, your ball python is a children's pet that is easily consumed by an alpha snake. You like colors and looks while I like my snakes being able to eat other snakes and being big and bad." That's what I thought the case was. Jclaiborn helped to specify that this was not the case and upon further inspection of his account (several months of photos back) we can see that he actually does love and care for animals. It's mostly education and maybe to show off his snake, not it eating other snakes but the fact that he has a king cobra. Who wouldn't show off a pet cobra?



Guys, I already said this, but again I am sorry. I jumped the gun on this and didn't realize what the case was. I was trying to discover if it was common to feed animals as a way of bashing other kinds of animals. I should have done full research into the account in the first place.
Also, it seems that the original purpose of this thread has been misinterpreted by some. Whether that is my own fault for not being clear enough(?) or not, I simply was inquiring whether it was a common practice to take one animal and post it getting eaten by another in an attempt to make a point. Remember when world of ball pythons was hacked? It said something like "reproducing animals purely based on aesthetics is disgusting. All creatures are equal." I don't know if it was that kind of thing or what. It's clear that I was wrong though. I wasn't starting yet another live vs f/t thread. Or a "how dare this person feed a ball python to a snake that eats mostly snakes!" thread.


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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

...he likes to show all aspects of keeping certain animals, and not edit out the "bad", so people can make educated decisions on aquiring certain animals and what lenghts you sometimes have to go through when caring for said animal.

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There's nothing wrong with that. It's no different, really, than telling aspiring breeders that they have to be mentally prepared to cull deformed babies, or that breeding a female has risks and some do end up dying despite your best efforts.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

There's nothing wrong with that. It's no different, really, than telling aspiring breeders that they have to be mentally prepared to cull deformed babies, or that breeding a female has risks and some do end up dying despite your best efforts.

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I couldn't agree more!