why? WHY??

Why do they have to pee the moment i put them in a clean freshly lined cage?

Is it standard practice? Is it like a genetically imprinted trait to punish us?

Sorry for the rant. I love my snakes but i was rubbing for an hour! Do yours do that? What should i do?

Some snakes are just funny like that. :D

Quite a few retics do that. My old horse did as well - bring him in from the field where he'd been out all day, because it was supper time, and he'd lift his tail before you got the door to the stall shut. :rolleyes:

LOL. Happens to me EVERY time after I clean my both of my snakes' tubs! Welcome to the world of snake keeping.

Apparently the smell of a clean tub has a laxative effect on some snakes. Usually within 2-24 he's of cleaning a bunch of tubs someone will trash one again.

this is organised crime in my eyes.

happens every time...and inside the hide. grrr

There is a reason for this.

Because snakes will snake? Mine do that too. I'll scrub the tubs, put them in, within 24 hours I get to re-scrub the tubs. I think they find it funny and as soon as we leave the room they snicker to each other about how they're driving us up a wall and planning their next assault on our sanity.

What do you think it is Skip?

I often wonder if it is a scent marking thing. :oops:

Also wondering this.
Gonna hijack the thread for a minute. Can anyone tell me if I'm doing it right? Clean tub, snake messes it up the same day or day later then completely clean tub again? Like after they poo or pee am I supposed to clean the entire tub/disenfect?


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BPSnakelady yes that's exactly what I'm thinking ;)

probably it's this scenting territory for feeling more comfortable...what i don't understand is that it doesn't fit to the whole idea of cleaning/changing tubs for problem feeders. if the tub represents a new snake-free hide, then the snake should wait for the rodent without producing odours that could warn the rodent, then eat it and poo/pee before searching for another hide. Does the idea and my english make any sense?

i'm sorry but i don't change it immediately...i recently changed to corrugated paper which absorbs a lot and dries in a couple of hours. if they poop i will.

Garter snakes are notorious for this! Trust me, they are the species that does it routinely! Lol. Yes, I think scent marking new territory has a part in it. :D

Studies outlined in the book "The Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles" looks in depth at this behavior. It is noted in not only snakes, but lizards. There are several reasons why this happens.

In the studies, the defecation was wholly dependent on the whether soiled objects were left in the enclosure or whether it was completely and thoroughly cleaned. The latency and frequency of defecation was noted and was found to be related to an absence of chemical cues. It occurred equally in new acquisitions and in long term captives.

If small soiled stones or bits of bedding were left in the enclosures, no defecation behavior was noted. In other words, the behavior can be mitigated by leaving familiar scent clues in the cage.

The conclusions pointed at several behavioral culprits:

(1) For a lack of a better word, scent marking.

(2) Increased metabolic activity due to measured increases in cortisol levels due to the combined stresses of unfamiliar scents and handling. Remember, even in habituated animals, measurable increases in cortisol levels were noted after even short handling sessions. Cortisol in humans is a believed aggravator of IBS.

(3) "Emotional Fever". A phenomenon in which an animal has a fever response to handling. This means that some snakes would elevated their baseline temperatures by up to 6 degrees Celsius after handling sessions. The reason is unknown, but the behavior has been noted in snakes, lizards and even mammals.

(4) There is a separate school of thought that deals with how snakes perceive their environment. The theory is that the cues left by cleaning agents rob the animal of it's ability to perceive the enclosure as home. They are unfamiliar and induce elevated stress levels. Researchers were able to curtail this behavior by making sure traces of novel scents were in the cages at all times. Therefore, once the odor was deemed as a natural part of their home, the defecation response to cleaning ceased.

Keep in mind that these same set of studies showed that snakes can tell the difference between their own feces and those of conspecifics.

In short, they look for familiar chemical cues. Whether this is to mark territory or is a process in which familiar scents are a function of their perception of the environment would probably depend on the species and the sex of the animal.

If you don't like the behavior, acclimate the animal to the scent of your cleaner.

Interesting.


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Fascinating. I've always known the trick to getting aything to poo was to give their home a good and thorough cleaning, but never quite knew why. Kind of figured it was just a kind of "screw you" response, especially since I first learned that trick with my cats. Couldn't even leave a bag of litter open around them...

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Originally Posted by rubberduck

Why do they have to pee the moment i put them in a clean freshly lined cage?

Is it standard practice? Is it like a genetically imprinted trait to punish us?

Sorry for the rant. I love my snakes but i was rubbing for an hour! Do yours do that? What should i do?

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It could be worse. They could pee on you instead.

Wow Skiploder this is really interesting. I wonder if thats why snakes are sometimes a little hesitant about new cage furniture.

What kind of lizard species were mentioned?

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Originally Posted by Jhill001

Wow Skiploder this is really interesting. I wonder if thats why snakes are sometimes a little hesitant about new cage furniture.

What kind of lizard species were mentioned?

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Phrynosoma Cornutum (Texas Horned Lizards) were specifically mentioned,

References were made to other studies involving other species.

Something to keep in mind...

The stress of acclimation - specifically introducing a captive snake to a new environment - has been observed to last an average of 21 days. Again, this stress is quantified by measuring cortisol levels in the animal.

Presumably, that 21 days is how long it takes for the snake to accept spatial and chemical cues and, for lack of a better term. "make peace" with them.

When you clean an enclosure, you may alter both cues that the animal used to acclimate itself to it's "home". You may remove all of the chemical cues by cleaning and if you rearrange or replace the furniture you alter the spatial ones.

You introduce new chemical cues that are transient and which the snake never really adapts to (the scent of the cleaner).

As with any husbandry operation, the key is to make things as stress free as possible. If you use a cleaner like F10, even using it for spot cleaning may not give the animal enough time to register it as a chemical cue that's part of their environment. The experiments showed that if you kept something with a trace of that chemical clue in the enclosure for a period of time, the cleaner would not induce a defecation response.

None of this is new. Many of these studies go back to the 1970s.

Huh.. Interesting information. I will have to consider this the next time I clean tubs.

I'd have read the study if the book wasn't 180 bucks or 120 for a dang E-book. I wonder if these people ever thought about lowering these things to like 40 bucks how many people would actually buy them. Especially for a book published 13-14 years ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Phrynosoma Cornutum (Texas Horned Lizards) were specifically mentioned,

References were made to other studies involving other species.

Something to keep in mind...

The stress of acclimation - specifically introducing a captive snake to a new environment - has been observed to last an average of 21 days. Again, this stress is quantified by measuring cortisol levels in the animal.

Presumably, that 21 days is how long it takes for the snake to accept spatial and chemical cues and, for lack of a better term. "make peace" with them.

When you clean an enclosure, you may alter both cues that the animal used to acclimate itself to it's "home". You may remove all of the chemical cues by cleaning and if you rearrange or replace the furniture you alter the spatial ones.

You introduce new chemical cues that are transient and which the snake never really adapts to (the scent of the cleaner).

As with any husbandry operation, the key is to make things as stress free as possible. If you use a cleaner like F10, even using it for spot cleaning may not give the animal enough time to register it as a chemical cue that's part of their environment. The experiments showed that if you kept something with a trace of that chemical clue in the enclosure for a period of time, the cleaner would not induce a defecation response.

None of this is new. Many of these studies go back to the 1970s.

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So in short, our snakes enjoy making us work lol :D

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jhill001

I'd have read the study if the book wasn't 180 bucks or 120 for a dang E-book. I wonder if these people ever thought about lowering these things to like 40 bucks how many people would actually buy them. Especially for a book published 13-14 years ago.

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The book references other studies. Save your money and look up the studies that are referenced. I got a copy of the book when it was in print and it was a fraction of the price.

This isn't directed at you but members in general. Google is virtually useless when trying to look up specific scientific papers. If you are trying to look at feeding habits of a particular species, you need to understand what study would be undertaken to determine such habits.

There have been thousands of studies done on captive and wild snakes ranging from behavior, to feeding patterns, to stress responses, to prey size and type and adaptations that define their natural history.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

The book references other studies. Save your money and look up the studies that are referenced. I got a copy of the book when it was in print and it was a fraction of the price.

This isn't directed at you but members in general. Google is virtually useless when trying to look up specific scientific papers. If you are trying to look at feeding habits of a particular species, you need to understand what study would be undertaken to determine such habits.

There have been thousands of studies done on captive and wild snakes ranging from behavior, to feeding patterns, to stress responses, to prey size and type and adaptations that define their natural history.

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Is there a good source to look up specific scientific papers that you use or know of?

Because I started searching for some scientific papers and such and they want to charge me 10 bucks just to look at one and that one is 40 years old!

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Originally Posted by Jhill001

Because I started searching for some scientific papers and such and they want to charge me 10 bucks just to look at one and that one is 40 years old!

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I have free access to them through other avenues.....most are pay to play.

One says its a non-profit I'm calling BS on that one.

@Skiploder

Very interesting, and that would explain a few things.

We have found, as many do, that sometimes the girls go in groups on cleaning days.

I.E.. We can change 30-40 girls then come back in 4hrs and 5-7 with have made a mess. This is typical during the winter when we spot clean, etc. and reuse bins almost all the time.

Interestingly, in the summer months when we try to swap bins out and power wash them outside it feels like we are cleaning more often. Maybe we should scale back on the OCD cleaning.
:rolleye2:

Thx,
Chris

i just ordered a 2L F10.

I gave my snakes the pee at will command.

Yes there is a reason for this has to do with natural hunting instinct. Will find the article to post

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Originally Posted by Peoples

Yes there is a reason for this has to do with natural hunting instinct. Will find the article to post

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There was a dedicated study done on this and it had absolutely nothing to do with hunting. Can you provide me a link to this contradictory study?