Pine bedding?

I've always heard that pine bedding is bad. As a result, I use aspen. The same goes for rodents, although pine is now (mostly) deemed okay for them, and I use it as it helps ward away pests.

Over the past few days, I've seen a few people mention on here that pine is okay for snakes. Is this true, or some kind of inside joke I'm missing? Is aspen still superior?

I'm just curious. I'm comfortable with aspen, so I'll likely stick to it for my balls.

This should give you an idea. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...at-pine-debate

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Originally Posted by Running Elk

I've always heard that pine bedding is bad. As a result, I use aspen. The same goes for rodents, although pine is now (mostly) deemed okay for them, and I use it as it helps ward away pests.

Over the past few days, I've seen a few people mention on here that pine is okay for snakes. Is this true, or some kind of inside joke I'm missing? Is aspen still superior?

I'm just curious. I'm comfortable with aspen, so I'll likely stick to it for my balls.

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Personally, most of my snakes are on pine right now and have been for a while. 21 of them at the moment to be exact.

If you're looking for more credible examples, two people on here have had snakes (LOTS of snakes) for 30+ years, have used pine for long periods. (I removed their names. I don't want to speak for them.)

Further up the visibility chain there are large, national scale breeders who use pine.

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Originally Posted by Running Elk

I've always heard that pine bedding is bad. As a result, I use aspen. The same goes for rodents, although pine is now (mostly) deemed okay for them, and I use it as it helps ward away pests.

Over the past few days, I've seen a few people mention on here that pine is okay for snakes. Is this true, or some kind of inside joke I'm missing? Is aspen still superior?

I'm just curious. I'm comfortable with aspen, so I'll likely stick to it for my balls.

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Like all debates that have their roots in internet mythos, the Great Pine Debate has a fairly traceable arc.

For decades, snake owners used pine shavings for bedding. Pine shaving are all dried by some method or another during processing.

Then fairly recently some people who think they are researchers, doctors and biologists looked at data showing that human beings that worked in paper mills had higher incidences of respiratory illness...and that lab animals kept on softwood bedding had elevated hepatic enzyme levels.

The problem is that without a real scientific background, education or basic ability to draw real conclusions, they made the leap that pine must be bad....and their rantings quickly spread through the internet.

There were no studies showing the effects of pine of reptiles. The rat ladies, gerbil goddesses and bunny mistresses conveniently (or ignorantly) forgot to start screeching that the human disease data was linked to hardwood (aspen) as well as pine along with many other woods. Then they made large leaps in logic and drew connections that did not exist to pine and liver function. They cited studies that did not really prove or disprove their points.

To compound matters, they were prolific in their opinions and now you cannot do a Google search without reading some manifesto about the dangers of pine. So any half wit with an internet connection can scan over this drivel and then get thoroughly misinformed while thinking they are getting informed.

Bottom line: the debate was not a debate until recently, and with the exception of people who lie badly to make their dim-witted points, no one has ever had a snake die due to being housed on pine bedding. No one has ever offered proof that pine causes RIs in snakes, contact dermatitis in snakes, etc. Oh yes, some may vigorously claim it, but none can or are willing to prove it. People can be so married to their opinions.

On the other hand, several well known breeders, and lots of keepers with decades of experience use it without incident....and there are many species who live their lives in aromatic, phenol and resin rich pine litter in the wild.

Hope that helps.

Wood shavings once came from a living organism. Living things often defend themselves against attack. Trees are no exception to this. The principal defence and offence (depending on the species) is a chemical. Often the chemical is a phenol based one. There are a number of trees that release noxious chemicals. Anyone whom has worked with a cocobolo and got a face full of dust from it can attest, it sucks. Many woods have toxic effects, not only pine and cedars.

Pine chips that are sold in bulk by me are raw untreated chips full of bark, twigs, and often mouldy chips. The principal pine chip supplier in my area does not sell kiln dried pine chips. I would suggest raw pine to be a poor idea, the fact it is so often covered in black mould is as good a reason as any. That said typically pine chips are kiln dried and cost a fair bit more (the raw pine chips by me are a flat fee, as much as you are willing to move by hand.) and are free of issues for the most part.

I would suggest kiln dried pine to be fine as long as it does not have a strong smell. The same can be said for aspen (Populus wood, aka poplar on most wood charts) Cyprus is regional it depends on where the tree is from, some is fine some is bad news for the people handling it. (who knows how reptiles react)

That is the next issue how do reptiles react, almost across the board is an unknown. It forces an extrapolation, phenols are not good for humans in high concentrations, there is a good chance phenol is not good for small mammals either and a fair guess is likely not good for reptiles generally. There is a long standing belief phenol based chemicals kill or repel snakes. Often there is some truth to old home remedies. I am fairly comfortable saying phenols are bad news. They are found in many wood products and tons of cleaners (pinesol, detol, thymol, etc.) and in glues as well (Resorcinol) . i personally with the weight of anticedal evidence avoid phenol laden products. Pure kiln dried pine is likely fine, raw not kiln dried in my estimation is not fine at all.

I don't think there is a safe substrate that was always with out issues and was perfect. There would be no debate on it if it existed. It isn't a question of safe, but of safer. Kiln dried pine sure should be fine, aspen as well as it too has been kiln dried and that process breaks down the oils in question. Cyprus as long as it came from N. America sure. There are paper products likely good too.

There is not exact answer here, too many variables and unknowns. It is likely that any reasonably low toxic wood is fine especially after kiln drying. I would be more concerned with various cleaners and glues.


http://www.wood-database.com/wood-ar...-and-toxicity/

Alex, you touched on something the pine deniers don't:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I would suggest kiln dried pine to be fine as long as it does not have a strong smell. The same can be said for aspen (Populus wood, aka poplar on most wood charts) Cyprus is regional it depends on where the tree is from, some is fine some is bad news for the people handling it. (who knows how reptiles react)

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Aspen also contain phenols and oils as does cypress. One of the erroneous tenets of the pine truthers is that somehow only pine (and cedar) produce irritants.

FWIW, I have never seen commercially available pine bedding - marketed as pine bedding - that was NOT dried. Since it is sold and marketed for it's absorptive qualities and needs to be packaged and processed in a way that maximizes it's shelf life, drying is the rule, not the exception. It is also screened and efforts are made to remove dust.

No one should purchase raw chips from any tree for their bedding.

On the other hand, I've known breeders who have raised a dozen generations of snakes on pine substrates without any problems whatsoever. So I guess the question is, who are you gonna believe? Keepers with 30+ years of experience or 'internet experts' and Vet Techs who know how to use google?

Hmmm, I guess you could always use repticarpet... You could probably sanatize it properly if you have access to an autoclave.


True repticarpet story: Many many years ago when I got my first leopard geckos, I set them up in a 10 gallon aquarium with repticarpt substrait. I figured it looked good and was easy to clean. I was a little surprised to watch the geckos get their teeth stuck in the fibers of the carpet every time they missed a cricket. They would pull and pull and pull to get free and even sometimes lost a few teeth in the process. I switched to newspaper after that.

(hehe: 'Pine Truthers...') that's funny.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

On the other hand, I've known breeders who have raised a dozen generations of snakes on pine substrates without any problems whatsoever. So I guess the question is, who are you gonna believe? Keepers with 30+ years of experience or 'internet experts' and Vet Techs who know how to use google?

Hmmm, I guess you could always use repticarpet... You could probably sanatize it properly if you have access to an autoclave.


True repticarpet story: Many many years ago when I got my first leopard geckos, I set them up in a 10 gallon aquarium with repticarpt substrait. I figured it looked good and was easy to clean. I was a little surprised to watch the geckos get their teeth stuck in the fibers of the carpet every time they missed a cricket. They would pull and pull and pull to get free and even sometimes lost a few teeth in the process. I switched to newspaper after that.

(hehe: 'Pine Truthers...') that's funny.

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Alex really hit on the crux of the issue...it's been touched on before but no one has gone into any real depth on it.

Aspen and cypress wood contains phenols and oils. While they tend to be less aromatic, they still exist and in fresh form, can be fairly potent respiratory irritants.

It's just in the last 7 years or so that pine has become so darned controversial and has become the scourge of wood beddings.

The truth is that treated pine is no more risky than any other commercially available wood bedding. There has been zero published evidence that it is any more harmful than any other commonly used wood bedding - and yes I mean aspen

People who should stick to eating Pringles and guzzling diet coke while watching Oprah have done a lot of laughable misinterpretation of some select studies that could arguably apply to any wood bedding. The time spent excoriating pine could be better used by these people to work out or to decrease the point loading on their sofas.

The most pathetic of these misconceptions is that the phenols that the tree uses to protect itself from parasites are unique to pine. They are not. Most trees produce the same phenols. The process of drying wood bedding reduces both phenols, oils and the other compounds that the trees use as defense mechanisms.

Animals and people alike can have contact and inhalant allergies to any wood shaving product as they all contain an irritant of one type or another. The trick is to get a bedding material that is properly dried and screened - which most are.

I find it amazing that members of our community are so quick to point out the ignorance and fear that many people direct at snakes and their owners. We accuse these people of looking at statistics wrong, misinterpreting data and vilifying something out of pure ignorance.

Then a large portion of our community is guilty of the same thing....pine substrate bad. No glass tanks. Ball pythons do not climb. You can't keep two snakes of any species together, etc.

Sadly Skip by us there is a massive mill that processes pine mostly. It is common for the ignorant to buy pine 'bedding' (they sell it as such) from them. It is in huge outdoor mounds and is a come and take as much as you can place (I got some for a woods trail, a pickup truck full and a light trailer cost us 50$). In my area it is common to see it as animal bedding (they sell it on kijiji) and it is fully unprocessed (if it is really cheap it should be investigated). I always leave the caveat, kiln dried, most bags of proper bedding state it is on the bag, it only takes 2 seconds to check. Raw wood of any type is probably not a good idea, phenols aside, it often has a grab bag of insect hitchhikers as well.

I think most agree that phenols are not a good idea and cedar chips are high in phenols, few would debate they are poor choice. I think that it can be simplified by saying phenol rich sources are a poor product to be used in contact with reptiles. For the most part common beddings used for snakes are low phenol sources. It is likely (almost certain) that particle boards contain many times more phenols than pine does.

I have two excellent reasons for never using pine bedding

1. I am allergic to that stuff, it is dusty and noxious, and when I work with it my eyes get red and watery and swell shut. I wheeze and have to use my inhaler. I used to live in Pomona NJ. Try being the guy allergic to pine in the pine barrens. Everyone who met me asked, in a very serious tone of voice, "are you alright?" Benadryl was one of the four food groups. I don't care if that crap is bad for the snake or not. It is bad for me, and it is only slightly better if it is kiln dried.

2. The penny saver people think that I need to get a subscription of their paper full of adds. They don't charge for it. At first I was annoyed every time I went outside in the morning and tripped over the confounded thing. Then I realized they were just delivering free substrate. Now if only I could get my snakes to clip coupons for hot pockets. Right now Delphi my ball python is taking a poop on a 10 percent off coupon for deli meat. My corn snake is burrowing under shredded discounts on bottled water. Another product that confounds me. Who would pay that much for water when you can get it for pennies just turning on the tap? My BCI is expelling some Urates on an Oscar Meyer Weiners add. My rainbow boa is lounging on a full page spread for Lucky Charms.

So there you have it, recycled newspaper, safe for snakes, non allergenic, and free. Who cares if pine is poisonous? Who in there right mind would pay for substrate? Just ask your neighbors and friends if any of them have any newspaper they don't want to haul to the curb. Offer to take it out for them. Its free substrate. If your snake likes to burrow, buy a paper shredder. Some people say I am cheap, I say resourceful.

Best of all I don't have to get into an argument where both sides are armed with exactly no evidence. News flash, no one has ever done a controlled double blind study on pine bedding toxicity in snakes. And unless snakes become a human analog, nobody probably ever will.

David

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Originally Posted by nightrainfalls

Best of all I don't have to get into an argument where both sides are armed with exactly no evidence.

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There's two people on this forum alone with a combined 60 years of snake keeping between them who have successfully kept hundreds (if not thousands) of snakes on pine bedding for decades.

That by itself would seem like evidence to me that pine bedding is not bad for snakes and can be used successfully without issue.

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Originally Posted by 200xth

There's two people on this forum alone with a combined 60 years of snake keeping between them who have successfully kept hundreds (if not thousands) of snakes on pine bedding for decades.

That by itself would seem like evidence to me that pine bedding is not bad for snakes and can be used successfully without issue.

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And a mirage seems like water. Let me give you an example. This is completely made up, so don't take anything I about to say as fact. This is just a story for illustrative purposes.

Let us imagine a breeder who keeps Red Swoosh Snakes. These are a rare and coveted species that are prone to liver failure. He has been keeping them for years on pine bedding. Another breeder also keeps Red Swoosh Snakes and insists they should not be kept on pine bedding. Our first breeder explains he has been keeping red Swoosh Snakes for decades and has never had a problem with the pine bedding. In fact whenever the first breeder looses a snake, he takes it to the vet for a necrposy. The result is always the same. Death due to liver failure. Now let us take for granted that pine bedding is actually detrimental to Red Swoosh Snakes. Further more let us understand that Red swoosh snakes typically live for 30-40 years. In this case we will let the pine contribute to liver failure in 2% of cases. Liver failure typically occurs after thirty years. Our first breeder has kept four hundred snakes. Of those four hundred snakes, 8 have died prematurely from being kept on pine bedding. That means that 392 snakes have not been fatally injured. In order to discover this small effect, we would have to track thousands of snakes kept in exactly the same husbandry but different substrates for decades. This would be an expensive study in a long lived species like Red Swoosh Snakes.

End of story.

In short all the keepers on this forum who have kept more than a few snakes for more than a few years have suffered losses. Snakes are cryptic animals and seemingly healthy animals just die sometimes. Even with a necropsy we may not find out why. If the toxicity of pine bedding is low, the signal could easily be missed. Of course it is also possible that there is no signal to be missed.

So actually no side in this argument has much evidence.

The pine is poison people have studies in mammals that they would like to extend to reptiles. Extrapolating from one related species to another is an iffy proposition, but we aren't even in the same class here. We also have the problem that the rodent studies only hint at the possibility of toxicity. There are some changes in liver enzymes, but this may or may not be detrimental at all. We only found it because it skewed some pharmacological studies.

No one really cares if lab rats will develop liver cancer and die, since they are all going to be killed and autopsied anyway. All the researchers care about is whether or not their results are invalidated by the bedding. Cruel yes. Scientists are cruel. Believe me, I used to be one.

David

So essentially you're saying there is no evidence of any kind that anything is successful in keeping snakes?

Hotspots of 90, keeping in tubs, aspen, paper towels....we don't actually know that any of these are not detrimental to our snakes. Or at least there is no evidence these things are not killing our snakes.

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Originally Posted by 200xth

So essentially you're saying there is no evidence of any kind that anything is successful in keeping snakes?

Hotspots of 90, keeping in tubs, aspen, paper towels....we don't actually know that any of these are not detrimental to our snakes. Or at least there is no evidence these things are not killing our snakes.

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Sounds like it, which means decades of hands on experience means NOTHING unless you're a scientist or a vet tech [emoji57]

But hey what do I know I am one to think pine is OK and BP can be kept at room temp with no hot spot [emoji57]

Hmmm. So anyone use Eco flakes for their snake collection? I like the smaller pieces and fluffiness. It'd be nice to use the same bedding for rodents and snakes.

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Originally Posted by Marrissa

Hmmm. So anyone use Eco flakes for their snake collection? I like the smaller pieces and fluffiness. It'd be nice to use the same bedding for rodents and snakes.

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What are eco flakes made of? Pine is fine as years and years of experience has proven, but that doesn't mean that all wood products are okay. I have first hand experience proving that cedar is dangerous to snakes.

There have been over the years a number of poor keeping practices. Tanks so wet they would from mushrooms for example. nightrainfalls has a point just because a few keepers have been doing the same thing for a long time doesn't mean it is the best option.

However there is a of weight of evidence. In this case I believe that there are enough keepers with enough animals and enough time to say that a high quality pine bedding is likely fine and will have no issues.

The simple truth is clear, there are too many diligent successful breeders using pine bedding for too long to say that there is an major issue. It maybe discovered that there is some odd connection between phenols and some undiscovered mystery disease. Currently there is no proof of anything.

There are so many phenol containing products that are almost certain to have more phenol levels than pine. Chemically extracted and refined phenols are in tons of things. Perhaps they should be of greater concern.

Just courius, isn't average room tempature like 73.4 degrees? Or do you mean heating the whole room to a more species friendly tempature?

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Originally Posted by MarkS

What are eco flakes made of? Pine is fine as years and years of experience has proven, but that doesn't mean that all wood products are okay. I have first hand experience proving that cedar is dangerous to snakes.

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I think Eco Flake is a pine bedding mix (dried) from AWF. I've used it. It's a lot like aspen Sani-Chips in terms on consistency.

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Originally Posted by Sonny1318

Just courius, isn't average room tempature like 73.4 degrees? Or do you mean heating the whole room to a more species friendly tempature?

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Since I don't want to clean up another derailed thread you can discuss this here and see what I have already posted http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...plemental-heat