Why do hot rocks burn, and heat pads not (as much)

Why is it that there are so many burns from heat rocks? What is it about them specifically? Heat pads/tape etc. even when outside under the tanks also heats the floor so that the animal touches the heated (as vs ambient heat). The heat also comes from below instead of above, so that "no heat sensors on belly" thing doesn't explain it. Nor does heat trapped under the reptile as both heat rocks and pads are underneath. Substrate makes a difference but some people use newspaper for snakes and tile for dragons etc.

Is it just because people don't use a thermostat?

I want to build a heated shed for large lizards for winter sleeping out of plywood and heat mats/tape/cable underneath it. I see people build these with pig blankets for large tortoises. I just want to know what it is about hot rocks that causes burns so I do not "duplicate" that fault in my diy projects.

I believe it's because, like you said, people tend not to use thermostats with hot rocks.

For large torts or lizards look at a Kane heat mat for heat - they're designed to take the weight and abuse from livestock such as pigs, so they're great for large snakes and lizards.

Forget the plywood! Wood is the number 1 attractant for mites and their eggs! Try pvc or plastics. Good luck. Any other material except wood.:gj:

While you can use a t-stat with heat tape trying to secure a t-stat to a rock without it dislodging itself would be impossible, therefore they are use unregulated.

So it is simply the fact that no t stat, not because anything inherrent about them because they are in the form on a rock?

Reasons given by lizard people usually are that reptiles don't feel heat on their bellies and don't know it is hot, but snake guys use UTHs. Also something about "hot spots" on the rock. Doesn't really add up.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

While you can use a t-stat with heat tape trying to secure a t-stat to a rock without it dislodging itself would be impossible

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Glue gun ?

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Originally Posted by hungba

So it is simply the fact that no t stat, not because anything inherrent about them because they are in the form on a rock?

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Pretty much this. Both products are meant to create a heated surface for a reptile to rest on top of. The key difference is that the rock is intended for use inside of the enclosure, making it much more complicated to temperature regulate properly.

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Originally Posted by hungba

Reasons given by lizard people usually are that reptiles don't feel heat on their bellies and don't know it is hot, but snake guys use UTHs. Also something about "hot spots" on the rock. Doesn't really add up.

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If you think about how heat transfers in nature, it will help clear things up for how burns happen in captivity. If a reptile lays on a warm surface in nature, their bodies absorb heat while the surface loses it. The surface itself typically doesn't generate it's own heat, so reptiles didn't have a need to develop the nerve endings to be able to sense these temperature changes that seemingly defy nature. In captivity, our heat surfaces don't lose the heat they are transferring to our reptiles. Thus, if the surface is on the hot side, it will continue to be on the hot side regardless of how long the reptile stays put. That's why it is so important to be able to regulate this kind of heat inside of your reptile's enclosure.

In regards to the rock's "hot spots", they are side-effect of the heating element used and the shape of the rock itself around that element. UTHs, whole not perfectly even 100% of the time, do not have the inherent design flaws that add to the temperature inconsistencies.

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Reasons given by lizard people usually are that reptiles don't feel heat on their bellies and don't know it is hot, but snake guys use UTHs.

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This is true for some species including BP (which is why they often get burned) however it applies regardless of the heat source used if not controlled. T-stat allow temp control, prevent overheating which lead to burns and most importantly lack of T-stat can be a serious fire hazard.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Glue gun ?

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Sooner or later especially since the glue will warm up it will dislodge itself not worth the risk when there are supply out there that are safe when used properly.

A number of things here. The old style hot racks used to get stupid hot, and were prone to go crazy and become biblically hot. They also used to fail regularly, I would assume that the encapsulated heat element is to blame perhaps. This became so common the product has been viewed with extreme distrust. They claim they are improved. But the issues still remain, attaching the probe in such a way it is firmly fixed and not prone to external influence. The failure rate seems to be fairly high to this day as well. These combine to make it undesirable at best. Add the small surface area and the radiant nature and thermal blocking that could happen while an animal lays on it you get yet another possible of disaster.

The snakes not feeling heat is silly, they do. Scientists have used heat stimulus to measure snakes responses for years. The current idea of why a snake will not move off a overly hot heat source comes down to physiology.

Snakes have a large lung (and depending on species a small one too) The lung passes heart, liver and much of the arteries. The air it contains influences the core temp of the snake. Larger snakes cannot regulate the core temps completely from the outside. When the air temp is too low the snake will stay on the heat source in an attempt to raise the core temp. They seem to choose life over limb and take the burn rather than die.

This idea has not been proved but thought to be accurate by vets like Dr. Mader, and Klingenberg.

This also explains why snake get burns on the sides and back as well.

(there are also contact burns where a surface is so hot that it burns on contact i.e. the point where if you touch it you get burned too not a durational burn that only seems to happen with captive reptiles)

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

The snakes not feeling heat is silly, they do. Scientists have used heat stimulus to measure snakes responses for years. The current idea of why a snake will not move off a overly hot heat source comes down to physiology.

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Has Dr. Mader published updated information since this article that I am familiar with?

Relevant passage from his Understanding thermal burns in reptile patients (Proceedings):

Why then, when a reptile rests on such a "hot" hot rock, don't they also immediately jump off?

Nobody seems to have an easy answer for that. It is not uncommon for a snake to wrap its coils around a bare light bulb because it is attracted to the warmth that the light emits. So, it must feel the warmth, why then, does it not feel the burning heat?

One answer is that the nerve receptors that sense heat and the receptors that sense pain are different. It is possible that, since in the wild, such pain receptors have no evolutionary significance (reptiles do not come into contact with intensely hot objects in the wild). Therefore, evolutionarily, there is no reason that a reptile should have a hot-pain withdrawal reflex.

Other theories put forth suggest that since reptiles do not reason in the same fashion that people do, or other mammals for that matter, even though they may feel pain, they do not associate it with the object that they are touching. Hence, they do not realize that they need to move in order for the pain to subside.

Bottom line is, nobody really knows. So, until we understand why these animals are so prone to burns, the best thing to do is make every effort to prevent the burns in the first place.

I was lucky enough to be 'included' at a talk at the USF exotic vet conference a few years ago it was an idea bantered around then. That thermal burns are linked to low ambient air temps. When I asked him about pain receptors he said that pain response to heat was used for years with a variety of herps. That is all, there is no studies it was a idea bantered around nothing more. No vet will accept a theory with out data, It is sound as it fits all the criteria. There is a big difference between contact burns (they can always happen) and durational burns.

The first time I had a stat fail every animal in the failed rack was against the cool side, at the coolest part they could get to. My ambients temps are always spot on. This response is completely different to others that have no stat incorrect ambients and burnt snakes. It doesn't fit that one set of royals would move away from overly hot surface temps and a second set would not. It does make sense that if your other temps are off there is a different response.

If they could not tell hot surface from cool, could they thermoregulate at all?

Would not in every case of an overly hot surface (100ºF-130ºF) result in burns?

They would never get burns on the dorsal side if they feel heat better but yet that also happens. I have rescued animals that were burned from a side mounted uncontrolled UTH. There is not explanation that fits all of these but a low ambient air temp.

Yes we should always prevent burns. Every temp should be held correct, ambients included and every stat should be backed by a failsafe. Every heat source should not have a max temp over 100ºF. Too bad that is not always true.

I always thought that reptiles could sense the heat as evidenced by their thermoregulatory movements. The information put forth by Deborah, Eric and Kitedemon was very enlightening. Thank you. :gj:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I was lucky enough to be 'included' at a talk at the USF exotic vet conference a few years ago it was an idea bantered around then. That thermal burns are linked to low ambient air temps. When I asked him about pain receptors he said that pain response to heat was used for years with a variety of herps. That is all, there is no studies it was a idea bantered around nothing more. No vet will accept a theory with out data, It is sound as it fits all the criteria. There is a big difference between contact burns (they can always happen) and durational burns.

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Very interesting. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall at that conference.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

If they could not tell hot surface from cool, could they thermoregulate at all? Would not in every case of an overly hot surface (100ºF-130ºF) result in burns?

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It's equally silly to think they have a complete insensitivity to temperature differences. Of course thermoregulation depends on the ability to discern differences in temperature. I'm just not sure that it's the same as you and I would do so. I'm sure you're just asking those questions to provoke thought and conversation, though. ;)

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Yes we should always prevent burns. Every temp should be held correct, ambients included and every stat should be backed by a failsafe. Every heat source should not have a max temp over 100ºF. Too bad that is not always true.

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In a perfect world, right?

Eric Alan, absolutely not the way we feel heat at all. It is so very hard to project how senses work. All anyone can do is guess, I believe there is some credence to the ambient temp and durational thermal burns. (contact burns are easy, it is really hot, touch it and you are burned instantly)

It fits the things we know and fits the evidence. That makes it a good theory, testing a theory will make it fact but I am unsure if anyone will ever test such a thing? It means placing an animal in position to become burned. The people whom are most interested are not likely to purposely subject a snake to the potential to be burned. It may remain just an idea for some time but it is a good thought anyway and fits experiences we all have seen or heard of.

Nothing more than a theory. It is not fact as it has not been tested at all.

OP what kinds of animals are you trying to keep? You said lizards right? What kinds, monitors, tegus?

Anyway, the main problem with heat rocks is that they heat unevenly. The rock can be 95° except in certain small spots that can get up to 130-150°. The animal will bask on it even if it feels the hurt, and will continue to bask because the rest of the surface is comfortable. Heat tape is far more stable temp wise as well as heat lights.

Plus they don't realize it's the rock hurting them, to them it just looks and feels like a warm rock.

This is the same reason flood lights are better than spot bulbs. You have to heat the whole animal evenly. 5 minutes basking at 120°(at least in most lizards) is far better than basking 45 minutes at 95° with a small spot at 120°, that's when burns happen.