what a genetics gaurantee should look like

I just picked up a pastel het og female. I know the breeder.

She came with a genetics guarantee and i figured I'd share what should come with a quality animal.

I know this person and don't need the piece of paper, her word is good, however when dealing with unknown people this is something to look for.http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...488acf2ae3.jpg

Not sure if this is in the right place, may belong in general discussion or breeding, mods feel free to move

You saying crooks can't format a page, print it and sign their name? It's a nice thing to have for your personal records I suppose but a printout doesn't earn a seller trust or distrust in my book - their past and present actions do. The paper only has as much integrity as the person who made it, no more, no less.

They're only worth the paper their printed on (well, not entirely, they're also worth the reputation of the breeder) I know several instances of people spending good money on a het WITH impressive looking paperwork and never producing the morph.

Paperwork is only as good as the breeder that provides it.

Anyone with a computer and a camera can provide paperwork including unknown people. ;)

I provide paperwork not really to prove anything but because I know it is easier for my customers to be able to re-sell their animals.

99% of the hets I have bought did not come with paperwork, the only one that I did buy (a long long time ago) and that came with paperwork never proved....go figure :rolleyes:

Let's face it no one will jeopardize their rep for a $100 animal, het scams were big back in the day when hets were pretty pennies not anymore.

Andy, that paperwork looks concise and official like whoever printed it and kept the records did a efficient job. If you want a guarantee on your het choices speak to Garrick Demeyer of Royal Constrictors.com . He is friendly and will back up all of his hets! As will most of the big time breeders ie; Ralph Davis, Peter Kahl, etc. Good Luck and enjoy your hets! Stay in piece and not pieces. A.C.

I base my decisions on the person not the papers the snake comes with, as a result I think only my snakes I got from Justin Kobylka actually came with documents. Which is cool because Justin is great and I trust him 100% so the papers had nothing to do with my decision but was a nice touch. With the exception of my Butter that I got from NERD all my other animals came from guys I met and talked to and snakes I could handle and inspect before buying.

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Originally Posted by John1982

You saying crooks can't format a page, print it and sign their name? It's a nice thing to have for your personal records I suppose but a printout doesn't earn a seller trust or distrust in my book - their past and present actions do. The paper only has as much integrity as the person who made it, no more, no less.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

They're only worth the paper their printed on (well, not entirely, they're also worth the reputation of the breeder) I know several instances of people spending good money on a het WITH impressive looking paperwork and never producing the morph.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Paperwork is only as good as the breeder that provides it.

Anyone with a computer and a camera can provide paperwork including unknown people. ;)

I provide paperwork not really to prove anything but because I know it is easier for my customers to be able to re-sell their animals.

99% of the hets I have bought did not come with paperwork, the only one that I did buy (a long long time ago) and that came with paperwork never proved....go figure :rolleyes:

Let's face it no one will jeopardize their rep for a $100 animal, het scams were big back in the day when hets were pretty pennies not anymore.

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Andy, that paperwork looks concise and official like whoever printed it and kept the records did a efficient job. If you want a guarantee on your het choices speak to Garrick Demeyer of Royal Constrictors.com . He is friendly and will back up all of his hets! As will most of the big time breeders ie; Ralph Davis, Peter Kahl, etc. Good Luck and enjoy your hets! Stay in piece and not pieces. A.C.

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Originally Posted by C2tcardin

I base my decisions on the person not the papers the snake comes with, as a result I think only my snakes I got from Justin Kobylka actually came with documents. Which is cool because Justin is great and I trust him 100% so the papers had nothing to do with my decision but was a nice touch. With the exception of my Butter that I got from NERD all my other animals came from guys I met and talked to and snakes I could handle and inspect before buying.

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I am aware of the fact anybody can do this, but it is typically to much work for scamming. I usually by my animals from people i know or they know.

Paperwork gives the seller points in my book.
I only posted this because i have seen people ask what one should contain. No soapboxes required here.

I repeat...

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Originally Posted by andyroof1979

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I know this person and don't need the piece of paper, her word is good, however when dealing with unknown people this is something to look for.http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...488acf2ae3.jpg

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seems like a lot of people on this forum read the first 2 lines of a post and glance at a picture then start preaching. Lighten up a little

I think the paper work and pictures are a nice touch. It also protects the seller as well. For instance some one buys a 100% het pied from me. A few years later they say they are unhappy because she did not prove out and they want me to make it right. Well if you have a picture of the snake. You can verify that it is the one that you sold them. And that they are not trying to get over on you with a normal that's not het. Then you have several things that you can do. I do like to buy snakes, that come with some sort of records. Feeding etc. As it shows that the breeder is detailed to some degree with his or her reptiles.

I was agreeing with you, no soapbox needed. I get the feeling the others were also in agreement that a guarantee is nice but its not the most important thing. Which again I understand you're saying as well and were just showing it as an example of what one should or could look like.

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Originally Posted by andyroof1979

I repeat...


seems like a lot of people on this forum read the first 2 lines of a post and glance at a picture then start preaching. Lighten up a little

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OR.... maybe you need to learn not to take other peoples 'preaching' (ie: opinions) so personally.

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Originally Posted by C2tcardin

I was agreeing with you, no soapbox needed. I get the feeling the others were also in agreement that a guarantee is nice but its not the most important thing. Which again I understand you're saying as well and were just showing it as an example of what one should or could look like.

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Sorry about that, yes you agreed they were nice to have. Didn't mean to lump you in.

What I got was the others saying that they don't mean squat, and not to count on them. Sorry about that

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Originally Posted by MarkS

OR.... maybe you need to learn not to take other peoples 'preaching' (ie: opinions) so personally.

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Or you should not say something is worthless when it is not and read the whole post....especially when the last line states it is simply something to look for when dealing with unknown sellers.

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Originally Posted by andyroof1979

Or you should not say something is worthless when it is not and read the whole post....especially when the last line states it is simply something to look for when dealing with unknown sellers.

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And Touchy touchy aren't we, there is a difference between soapbox and adding to the subject and if you do not want people to comment maybe you should not post :rolleyes:

You tell people that this is what they should look for when buying hets from unknown breeders, I tell them they should buy from a reputable breeder (does not mean big breeders).

Wouldn't you hate for people to buy animals because someone told them that is what they should look for when in fact there is more to it than paperwork. :confusd:

If the seller is unknown doesn't that make the paperwork useless or close to it? If I don't know the seller a stack of paperwork wouldn't make me any more comfortable. I'll stick with people I know and/or trust.

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Originally Posted by andyroof1979

I know this person and don't need the piece of paper, her word is good, however when dealing with unknown people this is something to look for.

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That a piece of paper is something you should look for from unknown sellers is your opinion. My opinion is it doesn't mean squat more than me personally marking in my record book the supposed genetics of an animal I just hypothetically bought. I'd probably be more skeptical of an unknown seller throwing out paper work because it's the easiest thing to fake. The integrity of the person, and piece of paper, will reveal itself in time when dealing with such situations. I just don't see how a piece of paper changes anything. It's a nice touch but the sense of security it provides is purely psychological. The seller is going to back up their genetic guarantee or not, the paper has nothing to do with that in my opinion.

That said, when I start selling hets they will come with paper work but I still don't think people should give that any weight when making a purchase. I'll be printing 2 copies for each sale, one for me and one for the buyer. I'll be doing this for my own protection so I can verify an animal actually came from me if someone ever makes a claim.

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Originally Posted by andyroof1979

I know this person and don't need the piece of paper, her word is good, however when dealing with unknown people this is something to look for.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

They're only worth the paper their printed on (well, not entirely, they're also worth the reputation of the breeder) I know several instances of people spending good money on a het WITH impressive looking paperwork and never producing the morph.

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Originally Posted by andyroof1979

Or you should not say something is worthless when it is not and read the whole post....especially when the last line states it is simply something to look for when dealing with unknown sellers.

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OR.... you could actually notice that I agreed with you on that part. Talk about not reading the entire post...

I like to give and get records and papers with the snakes. Papers doesn't means someone cannot scam you, but I cannot agree that always buy from a reputable breeder. Their don't need any paper, cause you trust them anyway, but it's a good point for a beginner if he give some written document near his words to prove what I get. Everyone take the first steps unknown and without reputation, what he needs to build up.

I wish this thread didn't turn out this way. I was just showing an answer to a question i have seen here a few times.

I never once said to only buy animals that come with papers. Simply said something to look for.

I didn't ask for these papers, they were handed to me, though i always like getting the feed card along with the animal.

People dont always anticipate what animals/ vendors are going to be at an expo, however being a regular vendor i can usually weed out the less desirable vendors/ breeders.

If i was checking out a new show and found 2 people with the same het that i wanted and could find no other way to pick...animals both good quality, breeder knows their stuff, priced the same, but only one had the feed card and paperwork, they would most likely get the sale.

I was just trying to be helpful and contribute a good example of something to LOOK for, not take as the holy grail. Sorry to any offended.

I don't think folks were offended so much as offering different views on the value and application of the written guarantee. Thanks for showing a good example of one by the way.

I appreciate the example. I too would want this in my next snake.

While I agree paperwork is a nice touch, there is still nothing better than buying from a reputable breeder. I would much rather buy a het with no paperwork from a breeder who has a good reputation, has been around awhile and or has a good track record and BOI standing in Fauna classifieds than some no name Joe Blow who does offer the paperwork. But like Deborah said, I couldn't see any legit breeder jeopardizing their rep for a hundred or two when most have animals selling $1000+. just not worth it.

As someone who's new to the breeding arena, and a bit meticulous about records, I thank you for the lovely example of what a breeding guarantee can look like. So far, I've been really lucky (I also saved a long time) to purchase morphs and not hets (or just possible hets, so no paper work required)

If it's your first season selling, what else assures you that a breeder will someday prove reputable? Most of what I will have (to sell) after my first and second years will be showy co-dom or pied morphs (or real WT's - probability is a fickle mistress), but by year three, I hope to have some interesting combos / hets to offer too. I won't have 'enough' to be a big seller (only 1-3 possible breeding females this year; 6-7 next) and make a name quickly, but I also don't have 25 years in business to spread around the good word (yet)- so what other assurances should/can I provide for buyers?

Also, what do you guys think about the big reptile dealers - e.g. LLL? I bought a snake from Underground Reptiles (FL) and she arrived in perfect condition, as promised, when promised, but I've read a lot of less fortunate accounts online too. If someone is deceiving these big buyers and sellers, how are the breeders held accountable? i

Other than kingsnake and faunaclassifieds, are there feedback mechanisms to report scammers? (maybe that's another thread somewhere I missed)

Thanks again for opening the floor to this discussion - it seems very impolite to bring up these issues of fraud, but, ESPECIALLY when you're new, it seems very important!

I personally think the bigger reptile dealers who generally buy from wholesalers are ok if you are buying something that is easy to identify like a pied or if you are just looking for a pet. But if I was looking for a specific animal that was het for anything, I would go through a reputable breeder as he will know what he has since he bred it. I actually bought my BCI girl from a local mom and pop pet shop who take very good care of their animals and only order one of something until they sell it, then order another. Not like Petco who orders a dozen bearded dragons and sticks them all in a 5 gallon tank. Anyways my BCI girl was just a baby and 2 years later, she is the sweetest snake I've ever had. She's also kind of fat but that's my fault :P I never plan to breed her, she's just my pet.

As for Underground Reptiles, I have read horrible reviews from them on Faunaclassifieds so maybe you got lucky. I take 1 or 2 posts with a grain of salt as even a reputable breeder can have issues that are out of his/her control. As long as the problem is rectified, no harm no foul. Now if they have lots of bad posts, then that to me is more than just bad luck, that is deliberate and I would steer away from them as there are lots of other breeders to choose from.

As for the guarantee, its great and all and looks pretty but like others have said, its very easy to fake and who knows, in the year or three it takes for that "guaranteed" het to reach breeding age, the breeder might be long gone. Also he might just say something like well maybe you got unlucky with that clutch and it didn't prove out, try again next year and maybe he/she will prove out. Basically giving you the run around.

And while the issue of bringing up fraud might be impolite, the people doing the fraud are even more impolite and I think they should be called out to save veterans and even more so, new people getting into the field from getting ripped off and possibly discouraged from the whole hobby.

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Originally Posted by andyroof1979

I am aware of the fact anybody can do this, but it is typically to much work for scamming. I usually by my animals from people i know or they know.

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Actually that is the other way around. There have been a bunch of scams that are so over done its crazy. Why? Makes the people with the money feel more comfortable.

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Originally Posted by andyroof1979

Or you should not say something is worthless when it is not and read the whole post....especially when the last line states it is simply something to look for when dealing with unknown sellers.

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Why? Still doesn't mean anything. I have also seen hets take a couple seasons to prove out. If It doesn't prove 3 to 6 years later then what good is that paperwork.

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Originally Posted by andyroof1979

I wish this thread didn't turn out this way. I was just showing an answer to a question i have seen here a few times.
I never once said to only buy animals that come with papers. Simply said something to look for.
I didn't ask for these papers, they were handed to me, though i always like getting the feed card along with the animal.
People dont always anticipate what animals/ vendors are going to be at an expo, however being a regular vendor i can usually weed out the less desirable vendors/ breeders.
If i was checking out a new show and found 2 people with the same het that i wanted and could find no other way to pick...animals both good quality, breeder knows their stuff, priced the same, but only one had the feed card and paperwork, they would most likely get the sale.
I was just trying to be helpful and contribute a good example of something to LOOK for, not take as the holy grail. Sorry to any offended.

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I don't see anyone here offended other than you. There are more points of view than just yours or mine.
You are posting publically so you should be open to understanding that not everyone is going to agree with you.

That being said there are only 2 things you can really do with that paperwork and only one consists of composting in my garden.
Trust and honesty go hand in hand in this community.
To me my word is worth more than anything in this life, without it I am nothing.
Do I care about being the popular breeder that everyone loves to deal with? No!
Why? I would rather be honest and upfront rather than just make a sale.
Just my two cents. If you cant look me in the eye or my guy feels funny, that's all I need to know.