How soon after a regurgitation can I handle my snake?

Should I wait a couple days or a few weeks?


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Regurgitation is usually stress, husbandry, or illness related. Once you're completely sure you've eliminated improper husbandry from the equation, you can go on trying to identify the cause.

I wouldn't handle at all for at least a couple of weeks. At that time, you can feed again and then not handle for at least another week (to ensure regurgitation is not a repeat occurrence). If there is another regurgitation, then you've likely removed husbandry and stress (at least from handling) from the equation and it's time to see a qualified snake vet.

Two weeks.

Put him in his enclosure, make sure the temps and humidity are right, close it up and leave him alone for two weeks. Change the water as required, but otherwise, don't mess with him for the entire two weeks.

After two weeks, try feeding him a smaller than normal meal, and leave him alone again for a while after that.

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Originally Posted by 200xth

Two weeks.

Put him in his enclosure, make sure the temps and humidity are right, close it up and leave him alone for two weeks. Change the water as required, but otherwise, don't mess with him for the entire two weeks.

After two weeks, try feeding him a smaller than normal meal, and leave him alone again for a while after that.

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Echo... Echo... Echo... ;)

Hold it with your eyes only,that will cut down on regurging tremendously.;)

Can I ask why I can't handle him? I mean I know he needs at least a few days to a week to recover, but I after that I don't see why I couldn't. I know the cause, it was just too big and the mouse was also in an awkward position so that may have caused a bit of an issue too.


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Of course you can ask questions! :)

Did he tell you the reason for the regurgitation? If not, then you cannot be certain of the reason and it's best to take every precaution you can to stop it from happening again. Personally, I doubt that the 2 grams made any difference at all. ;)

Snakes should not regurgitate their food. If they do, something isn't right and it's your job to figure out what - especially with a hatchling that's already fragile and prone to stress enough as it is. Again, I wouldn't handle him until after he's proven he can eat again (in a couple of weeks after his system recovers) without this happening again.

I agree with Eric. We simply do not know the cause for the regurgitation at this point so we must take every precaution to stop it from happening a second time, because if your snake regurgitates again a second time it might be fatal. Regurgitation has very negative effects on snakes, it makes them really ill and very stressed, so much that they will be too weak to eat the next time in some cases which is why its fatal sometimes. But right now I can imagine your snake is very stressed out, so handling before he/she calms down is not recommended at all, it will only do more damage. Leave the snake alone for 2 weeks and then offer food , if all precautions are taken everything should go well. Just make sure husbandry is spot on. Next time when feeding as well like I said, minimize ANY stress the snake might have before and after eating, so handling a day before eating is a not recommended and leave the snake to properly digest for 2 days after that , because if you fiddle around with it before then, it gets stressed and will regurgitate. Also if you are feeding frozen/thawed, make sure you completely defrost and warm up that prey item, if there are any ice particles left within the prey, this could also cause regurgitation, I usually blow dry the prey item before hand.

But the size of the prey shouldn't cause this really. If the snake was able to swallow it down, then its the size was no problem. Snake's will know if the prey item is too big and wont even attempt swallowing if they know they will only regurgitate it. Though I must admit in some cases some snakes are dumb enough to try it and they actually "rip" open, its pretty gruesome. But I dont think the size of the prey item was the cause.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Of course you can ask questions! :)

Did he tell you the reason for the regurgitation? If not, then you cannot be certain of the reason and it's best to take every precaution you can to stop it from happening again. Personally, I doubt that the 2 grams made any difference at all. ;)

Snakes should not regurgitate their food. If they do, something isn't right and it's your job to figure out what - especially with a hatchling that's already fragile and prone to stress enough as it is. Again, I wouldn't handle him until after he's proven he can eat again (in a couple of weeks after his system recovers) without this happening again.

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Well, I've ruled out every other reason.
Temps: perfect.
Humidity: perfect.
Stress: I don't see any reason why he would be.
Handled too soon: nope, I waited 50 hours.
Illness: it's always a possibility.
Prey size: it was bigger than usual. It was really fat and weirdly shaped too.

The difference wasn't 2 grams, it was 7 grams bigger than the usual. Why would handling make it happen again?



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Originally Posted by Borgpython

I agree with Eric. We simply do not know the cause for the regurgitation at this point so we must take every precaution to stop it from happening a second time, because if your snake regurgitates again a second time it might be fatal. Regurgitation has very negative effects on snakes, it makes them really ill and very stressed, so much that they will be too weak to eat the next time in some cases which is why its fatal sometimes. But right now I can imagine your snake is very stressed out, so handling before he/she calms down is not recommended at all, it will only do more damage. Leave the snake alone for 2 weeks and then offer food , if all precautions are taken everything should go well. Just make sure husbandry is spot on. Next time when feeding as well like I said, minimize ANY stress the snake might have before and after eating, so handling a day before eating is a not recommended and leave the snake to properly digest for 2 days after that , because if you fiddle around with it before then, it gets stressed and will regurgitate. Also if you are feeding frozen/thawed, make sure you completely defrost and warm up that prey item, if there are any ice particles left within the prey, this could also cause regurgitation, I usually blow dry the prey item before hand.

But the size of the prey shouldn't cause this really. If the snake was able to swallow it down, then its the size was no problem. Snake's will know if the prey item is too big and wont even attempt swallowing if they know they will only regurgitate it. Though I must admit in some cases some snakes are dumb enough to try it and they actually "rip" open, its pretty gruesome. But I dont think the size of the prey item was the cause.

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If the size wasn't the problem than what is?


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Didn't you say in another thread that you had handled him for 30 minutes prior to the regurge? (correct me if I'm wrong) That's a pretty long time and could be stressful. I'd personally recommend not handling for so long at once even after you start handling again, but that can really stress out a snake especially if it's prone to being a bit nervous or jumpy.
Like everyone else has said though, you can't tell what exactly caused the regurge, so you have to use the process of elimination (in this case, eliminating handling/husbandry stress) to figure out what caused it.

This was answered in your other thread, you asked what you could do to help your BP that regurged. What you can do is keep his stress level as low as you possibly can until he can hold a meal down. Handling can very easily stress out a BP.

It's your snake and you can do what you want to do with it. But you're asking us, and you're not going to get the answer you want by posting multiple threads asking the same question. It's hard to do but you're just gonna have to wait it out.

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Originally Posted by LivingwithBalls

If the size wasn't the problem than what is?


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Unfortunately, he didn't tell me that either, which is why I suggested the troubleshooting method that I did.

Take our advice what it's worth though. We're just some folks on their computers offering advice to a fellow keeper with no expectation of personal gain beyond the satisfaction of knowing that maybe we helped a snake feel better and maybe we helped you understand your snake a little better like so many others have helped us.

I'm sorry, but I still just don't understand. I'm not trying to be annoying or anything, but why couldn't I handle him after, say 5 days? I just don't see any harm in it. Of course I wouldn't handle a few days before feeding and a few days after. But he's not going to be eating for a while, so why couldn't I?


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Once again, because it will stress him out. Ball Pythons don't like to be handled, they like to hide. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by LivingwithBalls

I'm sorry, but I still just don't understand. I'm not trying to be annoying or anything, but why couldn't I handle him after, say 5 days? I just don't see any harm in it. Of course I wouldn't handle a few days before feeding and a few days after. But he's not going to be eating for a while, so why couldn't I?


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Because it still stresses them out. Think of it kind of like a human driving; it's not very stressful (more stressful for some than others), but you are being jostled around and having to be very alert. Normally it's not a problem, but imagine you're just getting over a terrible stomach flu-- then driving around might make you sick.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Because it still stresses them out. Think of it kind of like a human driving; it's not very stressful (more stressful for some than others), but you are being jostled around and having to be very alert. Normally it's not a problem, but imagine you're just getting over a terrible stomach flu-- then driving around might make you sick.

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Yes, and after a few days the flu goes away and your fine.


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Originally Posted by tbowman

Once again, because it will stress him out. Ball Pythons don't like to be handled, they like to hide. Simple as that.

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So I should just never handle him in general?


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Jeez... If you think we're all wrong about this and want to handle your snake anyway, why even ask? Asking multiple times isn't going to get you a different answer.

Also, the residual stress from a regurge does not necessarily go away after a few days. Handling for half an hour could very well have caused or played a part in the regurge. No one knows for sure what caused it except the snake, and it's not talking lol.

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Originally Posted by LivingwithBalls

So I should just never handle him in general?


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If you want him to be at his calmest and 'happiest', yeah sort of. I keep handling of my BP to a minimum for this reason. Five or ten minutes is a long handling session for me.

But the main reason you're not doing it now is that you need to be absolutely 100% sure that the regurge wasn't caused by any hidden health problems and eliminating all other stress is the only way to do this.

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Originally Posted by LivingwithBalls

I'm sorry, but I still just don't understand. I'm not trying to be annoying or anything, but why couldn't I handle him after, say 5 days? I just don't see any harm in it. Of course I wouldn't handle a few days before feeding and a few days after. But he's not going to be eating for a while, so why couldn't I?


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He has very clearly shown you that he is upset by something. Currently, his digestive system is working overtime to replace the fluids needed to digest food properly, which adds considerably to him being upset. For perspective, would you want some Godzilla monster picking you up when you've got an upset stomach? Would you rather be left alone at least until you're well enough to keep food down like normal?

I'm mostly concerned as to why the short-term satisfaction you (not him) get from handling is more important than his long-term health. You didn't get a toy - you got a live animal that relies on your for its well-being. Is a few weeks of hands-off time seriously that terrible to recommend?

You clearly don't want advice. You seem dead set on justifying, at least in your mind, something that many people who have much more experience than you, have recommended against. But who are we to argue with someone who has, to use your words, "successfully owned a ball python for six weeks". Good luck with your snake.

Woah, didn't mean to offend anyone...


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Originally Posted by LivingwithBalls

Woah, didn't mean to offend anyone...


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Not offended here. No reason to be. Just trying to help. Have a good night, everyone. :)

I don't think anybody is offended. It's just that your question has been answered very clearly multiple times and you still seem to challenge it.

I think we all know how tempting it can be to handle our snakes. There are just times when you gotta leave them alone.

I'm honestly not understanding. It's not that I "need" to hold him, I'm really just curious and I don't get it. Sorry if I'm not as intelligent as everyone else, I thought that's what these forums are for.


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Not offended; it's not my snake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LivingwithBalls

I'm honestly not understanding. It's not that I "need" to hold him, I'm really just curious and I don't get it. Sorry if I'm not as intelligent as everyone else, I thought that's what these forums are for.


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You come across like you have the intention of handling when you've been told you shouldn't rather than just asking for info.

Ok, very simple answer why you should not be handling him for a while till he settles down: He had a very stressful experience, is very likely still stressed and very likely will be for the time already mentioned. Stress causes digestion problems which will in turn make regurgitation likely to reoccur.

If you don't want this to happen again don't handle him again until he is eating normally again.

I hope this helps you understand.

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Originally Posted by Mykuhl

Ok, very simple answer why you should not be handling him for a while till he settles down: He had a very stressful experience, is very likely still stressed and very likely will be for the time already mentioned. Stress causes digestion problems which will in turn make regurgitation likely to reoccur.

If you don't want this to happen again don't handle him again until he is eating normally again.

I hope this helps you understand.

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Okay, but is this scientifically proven? How do you know this? I don't just want an answer, I want reasoning behind it. If anybody has a link to a website or article about this subject that would be helpful.


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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Didn't you say in another thread that you had handled him for 30 minutes prior to the regurge? (correct me if I'm wrong) That's a pretty long time and could be stressful. I'd personally recommend not handling for so long at once even after you start handling again, but that can really stress out a snake especially if it's prone to being a bit nervous or jumpy.
Like everyone else has said though, you can't tell what exactly caused the regurge, so you have to use the process of elimination (in this case, eliminating handling/husbandry stress) to figure out what caused it.

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Oh and btw, yes it was 30 minutes. I know some are against handling for long amounts of time, but this is our usual handling session. He's an extremely relaxed snake. With lots of research I have concluded that as long as the snake does not seem stressed or agitated, I can handle him for as long and as much as I want. When I do handle him he usually explores a bit and then settles down for a nap either on my lap, my chest or wrapped around my arm.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by LivingwithBalls

Okay, but is this scientifically proven? How do you know this? I don't just want an answer, I want reasoning behind it. If anybody has a link to a website or article about this subject that would be helpful.


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I notice you ignore the comment about whether or not you actually intend to handle the snake...

The thing is you don't know exactly what does and does not stress a snake unless you're Voldemort.

HOWEVER; animals have seeking behaviors they display when their needs are not being met. This can be hunting, looking for a hiding spot, ect. Any behavior that meets the animal's needs. If the need is not being met, it will seek it out. When a BP has all its needs met (including safety) it will stay hidden in one spot until it gets hungry (need not met).
Being handled by a human is something that stresses snakes because it removes one of those basic needs; the need for somewhere to hide from predators. This is why your snake will typically move around while you handle it rather than just curling up and going to sleep. Sometimes it will ball up which is also a defensive reaction.
The reason you want to avoid this after a regurge is because you don't KNOW exactly when the snake has stopped being stressed by the event, and it is far better to overshoot than undershoot and end up causing more problems by adding stress.

That, and it's common sense that being handled by a giant monster is stressful to something with the mental capabilities of a snake.

Seeking behavior is a common-knowledge sort of thing with far too many scientific articles to sift through, so rather than giving you a scientific article I'll just say that Temple Grandin's "Animals Make Us Human" is an excellent casual read on the subject.

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Originally Posted by LivingwithBalls

Oh and btw, yes it was 30 minutes. I know some are against handling for long amounts of time, but this is our usual handling session. He's an extremely relaxed snake. With lots of research I have concluded that as long as the snake does not seem stressed or agitated, I can handle him for as long and as much as I want. When I do handle him he usually explores a bit and then settles down for a nap either on my lap, my chest or wrapped around my arm.


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What research? I would like to see the articles. Not trying to copy-cat or make fun of your earlier posts, but it seems like you're holding everyone else's information (most of which is borne from experience, not reading articles) to a different standard than your own...

Also... Regurging IS A STRESS BEHAVIOR.

Boy you could argue with a lamp post. ;-)

1. Stop being concerned about what you want and put your snake's needs first
2. Ball pythons get super stressed easily, especially when being handled. Not seeing a reason for it to stress him (from your POV) doesn't make it any less stressful.
3. Regurgitation so closely related to your time of and length of handling is all the proof you should need.
4. You have people with far more experience than you can shake a stick at giving you advice. It isn't looking like it is what you want to hear.
5. Rephrasing your question 100 ways doesn't make the answer change. ;-)

Leave him be for a week to allow for gut flora and such to stabilize. Offer food. If he refuses to eat then try again in a week and do NOT handle him. If he eats, leave him alone for a week and feed again. Once he is consistently eating again, you can try handling but start with no more than 5mins at a time. You are the great bringer of food but you are also a giant snake eating monster to such a little guy.

Good luck with your guy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

I notice you ignore the comment about whether or not you actually intend to handle the snake...

The thing is you don't know exactly what does and does not stress a snake unless you're Voldemort.

HOWEVER; animals have seeking behaviors they display when their needs are not being met. This can be hunting, looking for a hiding spot, ect. Any behavior that meets the animal's needs. If the need is not being met, it will seek it out. When a BP has all its needs met (including safety) it will stay hidden in one spot until it gets hungry (need not met).
Being handled by a human is something that stresses snakes because it removes one of those basic needs; the need for somewhere to hide from predators. This is why your snake will typically move around while you handle it rather than just curling up and going to sleep. Sometimes it will ball up which is also a defensive reaction.
The reason you want to avoid this after a regurge is because you don't KNOW exactly when the snake has stopped being stressed by the event, and it is far better to overshoot than undershoot and end up causing more problems by adding stress.

That, and it's common sense that being handled by a giant monster is stressful to something with the mental capabilities of a snake.

Seeking behavior is a common-knowledge sort of thing with far too many scientific articles to sift through, so rather than giving you a scientific article I'll just say that Temple Grandin's "Animals Make Us Human" is an excellent casual read on the subject.

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Sorry I didn't know it was necessary that I reply to that comment. Of course I would like to handle him, but I have not been and don't plan to.

He rarely moves around when I handle him, other than to find a good spot to sleep. I can honestly say he has never balled up while I handle him, unless he's in blue( I don't typically handle him during this time unless necessary btw).

May I ask what the mental capabilities of a snake are? Apparently nobody knows what snakes think, so how do you know he sees me as a "giant monster?" I mean for all we know they could be as intelligent as a dog or as dumb as a clam.

Thanks for the book title.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

What research? I would like to see the articles. Not trying to copy-cat or make fun of your earlier posts, but it seems like you're holding everyone else's information (most of which is borne from experience, not reading articles) to a different standard than your own...

Also... Regurging IS A STRESS BEHAVIOR.

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Ok, Here's a few knowledgeable websites I like to use and I will get more for you in a bit:
Strictlyballs.ca
Reptileknowledge.com
Anaspid.org


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Well you seem to be more of an expert than people who have more experience dealing with bp's so why do you even bother coming for advice honestly and not even take the advice given to you?
Advice you clearly need when you yourself admittedly say you dont have much knowledge on the matter.

Its not that we are annoyed dont get me wrong, we just dont know what else to say mate. We have told you a number of reasons/answers to your questions but instead you just choose to challenge them, even going so far to wanting scientific proof.
These answers you are getting are passed down knowledge from professional breeders who have been dealing with bp's for many years, they are the science. They have studied through experience the behaviour pattern of such snakes for many years, so why question that? You are not getting another answer from here trust me, we all follow the advices/practices given by the professionals who know what they doing. You think they quess that you need to leave your snake alone for 2 weeks before handling it after a regurgitation? no they know this through experience.

We are only trying to help and educate you on the matter mate, simple as that. Now if you choose to not follow such advices given then I must say you're gambling with your snakes life because you choose to go for what you think is right and ignore practice done by professional breeders. If that is the case we cant stop you, but its your snakes life on your hands man.

But again to clear things out.
-After a regurgitation it is advised not to handle your bp for at least 2 weeks. You may ask why, well this is advice older breeders tell us in the caresheets. Its because the snake after regurgitating will feel stressed and ill due to stomach acids left in the stomach not digesting anything, this causes them to grow weak as well and possibly go on a hunger strike for months if they dont calm down, this is why its is imperative that you let your snake calm down after a regurgitation. How do they know its 2 weeks at least? well trial and error, many breeders before probably handled their snake in less time than that after regurgitation and ended up badly, and have concluded that 2 weeks minimum is at least needed for no negative results. This is completely spelt out for you here, I hope you get the point.

How long should a bp be handled?
Bp's are easily stressed out, even though they may not seem stressed out, most of the time they are, 90 percent of the time they want to stay hidden and feel secure. People who buy them for display or lots of handling, bought the wrong type of pet. The less you handle them the more clam they will be, though don't get me wrong, it is advised to handle your bp once a day at least to familiarize yourself to it and have it be used to being handled, though only for a certain period of time a day is good for the snake, longer and the snake might get too stressed, on top of that probably not meeting its humidity and temp needs while out of the enclosure. 15 minutes max is advised, any longer and you're just stressing the snake out. Again how do we know this?, from experience and knowledge passed down by people who have dealt with bp's for many years.

You say you dont have the "need" to handle your bp, then it should be easy to leave him alone for 2 weeks for it to calm down.
Seriously nobody is here to start a debate on whats right or wrong method of doing things. We simply care about the health and well being of your bp. And if you do as well, please stop being so arrogant about it and just follow the advise given by people who know what they are dealing with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LivingwithBalls

Sorry I didn't know it was necessary that I reply to that comment. Of course I would like to handle him, but I have not been and don't plan to.

He rarely moves around when I handle him, other than to find a good spot to sleep. I can honestly say he has never balled up while I handle him, unless he's in blue( I don't typically handle him during this time unless necessary btw).

May I ask what the mental capabilities of a snake are? Apparently nobody knows what snakes think, so how do you know he sees me as a "giant monster?" I mean for all we know they could be as intelligent as a dog or as dumb as a clam.

Thanks for the book title.


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It's not necessary for you to reply to anything, but until this post you sounded like you had the intention of ignoring everyone's advice, hence the snippy responses. You were curious as to why people were getting short with you, and that's why.

I don't know my snakes think of me as a big scary monster. I do know that she displays stress behaviors such as searching when I handle her.

Actually we do know they are less intelligent than a dog and more intelligent than a clam. There are different types of learning and memory that define what we typically think of as intelligence.
The clam displays only what we call basic Hebbian Principle-- the ability to form an unconscious association between two unrelated stimuli. Even flatworms can do this, and they lack brains only having diffuse neural ganglia.
The dog displays long-term memory and object permanence. A dog's conscious behavior will change after being in a situation to manipulate a desired outcome such as getting a treat. They also display knowledge that something exists even when it isn't in their direct line of sight (the towel test).

The snake falls somewhere between these. While they can certainly form Hebbian associations and consciously modify their behavior based on short-term memories and perceptions, they lack object permanence (mine can't even grasp that a mouse's head still exists when she is looking for it and is laying on it)

I'm seriously loving this chance to drag out all my neuro coursework knowledge!:D

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Originally Posted by Borgpython

Well you seem to be more of an expert than people who have more experience dealing with bp's so why do you even bother coming for advice honestly and not even take the advice given to you?
Advice you clearly need when you yourself admittedly say you dont have much knowledge on the matter.

Its not that we are annoyed dont get me wrong, we just dont know what else to say mate. We have told you a number of reasons/answers to your questions but instead you just choose to challenge them, even going so far to wanting scientific proof.
These answers you are getting are passed down knowledge from professional breeders who have been dealing with bp's for many years, they are the science. They have studied through experience the behaviour pattern of such snakes for many years, so why question that? You are not getting another answer from here trust me, we all follow the advices/practices given by the professionals who know what they doing. You think they quess that you need to leave your snake alone for 2 weeks before handling it after a regurgitation? no they know this through experience.

We are only trying to help and educate you on the matter mate, simple as that. Now if you choose to not follow such advices given then I must say you're gambling with your snakes life because you choose to go for what you think is right and ignore practice done by professional breeders. If that is the case we cant stop you, but its your snakes life on your hands man.

But again to clear things out.
-After a regurgitation it is advised not to handle your bp for at least 2 weeks. You may ask why, well this is advice older breeders tell us in the caresheets. Its because the snake after regurgitating will feel stressed and ill due to stomach acids left in the stomach not digesting anything, this causes them to grow weak as well and possibly go on a hunger strike for months if they dont calm down, this is why its is imperative that you let your snake calm down after a regurgitation. How do they know its 2 weeks at least? well trial and error, many breeders before probably handled their snake in less time than that after regurgitation and ended up badly, and have concluded that 2 weeks minimum is at least needed for no negative results. This is completely spelt out for you here, I hope you get the point.

How long should a bp be handled?
Bp's are easily stressed out, even though they may not seem stressed out, most of the time they are, 90 percent of the time they want to stay hidden and feel secure. People who buy them for display or lots of handling, bought the wrong type of pet. The less you handle them the more clam they will be, though don't get me wrong, it is advised to handle your bp once a day at least to familiarize yourself to it and have it be used to being handled, though only for a certain period of time a day is good for the snake, longer and the snake might get too stressed, on top of that probably not meeting its humidity and temp needs while out of the enclosure. 15 minutes max is advised, any longer and you're just stressing the snake out. Again how do we know this?, from experience and knowledge passed down by people who have dealt with bp's for many years.

You say you dont have the "need" to handle your bp, then it should be easy to leave him alone for 2 weeks for it to calm down.
Seriously nobody is here to start a debate on whats right or wrong method of doing things. We simply care about the health and well being of your bp. And if you do as well, please stop being so arrogant about it and just follow the advise given by people who know what they are dealing with.

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Thank you ! I'm really truly sorry if I seem arrogant or like I'm challenging others responses, I just have a hard time understanding things, especially over the Internet.

I really enjoyed reading your response, it made sense to me. You spelt it out perfectly and gave reasoning for everything I have questioned. I know handling is a commonly debated thing, some would even say handling every day is bad. I think it differs from snake to snake and others think so as well so I've found with much googling.

I am in no way trying or wanting to start arguments or be arrogant please understand this.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

It's not necessary for you to reply to anything, but until this post you sounded like you had the intention of ignoring everyone's advice, hence the snippy responses. You were curious as to why people were getting short with you, and that's why.

I don't know my snakes think of me as a big scary monster. I do know that she displays stress behaviors such as searching when I handle her.

Actually we do know they are less intelligent than a dog and more intelligent than a clam. There are different types of learning and memory that define what we typically think of as intelligence.
The clam displays only what we call basic Hebbian Principle-- the ability to form an unconscious association between two unrelated stimuli. Even flatworms can do this, and they lack brains only having diffuse neural ganglia.
The dog displays long-term memory and object permanence. A dog's conscious behavior will change after being in a situation to manipulate a desired outcome such as getting a treat. They also display knowledge that something exists even when it isn't in their direct line of sight (the towel test).

The snake falls somewhere between these. While they can certainly form Hebbian associations and consciously modify their behavior based on short-term memories and perceptions, they lack object permanence (mine can't even grasp that a mouse's head still exists when she is looking for it and is laying on it)

I'm seriously loving this chance to drag out all my neuro coursework knowledge!:D

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Again I apologize if I'm sounding snippy, by no means is that intended.

Is searching out of curiosity or fear? I would have to say it depends. If the snake is frantically trying to slither away quickly, it's probably fear. If it's slowly moving around, licking the air, periscoping, an occasional yawn, it's probably just cruising it's new surroundings. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks for the the science! :)


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Originally Posted by LivingwithBalls

an occasional yawn, it's probably just cruising it's new surroundings.

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In species such as the dog, yawning is actually a sign of anxiety and/conflicting emotion/reasoning. Not including the wake up from a nap yawn of course.

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Originally Posted by LivingwithBalls

Again I apologize if I'm sounding snippy, by no means is that intended.

Is searching out of curiosity or fear? I would have to say it depends. If the snake is frantically trying to slither away quickly, it's probably fear. If it's slowly moving around, licking the air, periscoping, an occasional yawn, it's probably just cruising it's new surroundings. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks for the the science! :)


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I'm not 100% sure on that. With a high-metabolism snake like my garters, I'd say the searching behavior is less an indicator of stress than with the BP since they spend more time in the wild out and about. I also think social behavior is a bit more advanced with them since they are one of the only species that seem to actually calm down with cagemates; they will actually follow me around (inside their tanks) to beg for food.
With the BP I tend to see the searching as more out of stress since she'd be spending all her time under a rock basically in the wild. Plus, they're solitary except for breeding.

I don't know with 100% confidence that those are the exact motivations behind the behaviors, but it's a pretty good educated guess.

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Originally Posted by The Snakery

In species such as the dog, yawning is actually a sign of anxiety and/conflicting emotion/reasoning. Not including the wake up from a nap yawn of course.

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Yes, t were talking snakes;)


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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

I'm not 100% sure on that. With a high-metabolism snake like my garters, I'd say the searching behavior is less an indicator of stress than with the BP since they spend more time in the wild out and about. I also think social behavior is a bit more advanced with them since they are one of the only species that seem to actually calm down with cagemates; they will actually follow me around (inside their tanks) to beg for food.
With the BP I tend to see the searching as more out of stress since she'd be spending all her time under a rock basically in the wild. Plus, they're solitary except for breeding.

I don't know with 100% confidence that those are the exact motivations behind the behaviors, but it's a pretty good educated guess.

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Yeah, we can't really know for sure, it really bothers me lol. Sometimes I go to handle him,and he is just not impressed. Other times he wraps around my hand and will stay that way. He lets me know when he's had enough, and I respect that and will put him away.


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Originally Posted by LivingwithBalls

Yes, t were talking snakes;)


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Not the point but I suppose being intentionally obtuse is your thing.

Again, good luck with your BP. Hopefully you find someone to give you the answers you want.

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Originally Posted by The Snakery

Not the point but I suppose being intentionally obtuse is your thing.

Again, good luck with your BP. Hopefully you find someone to give you the answers you want.

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Oh what was your point? And thanks


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Originally Posted by LivingwithBalls

Ok, Here's a few knowledgeable websites I like to use and I will get more for you in a bit:
Strictlyballs.ca
Reptileknowledge.com
Anaspid.org


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Anapsid?

No.

A couple of things:

Regurging is different than vomiting. Vomiting involves digestion, regurgitation does not. This is an important distinction when trying to diagnose what is wrong with your snake. A regurge is a less traumatic event.

Regurges are often caused by the snake reacting to a stressful situation....ie: a snake divesting itself of a recently consumed meal if a fight or flight instinct is triggered.

Vomiting happens when the prey is undergoing digestion...maybe a day or so into the process. The causes of this may be varied - from actual illness to improper husbandry practices. The biological imperatives of regurging and vomiting are vastly different. Regurges are of little physical consequence to the snake and provide an advantage when dealing with fight or flight situations. Vomiting is a physically traumatic event and is triggered by the inability to physically digest a meal... either because of reduced biological function or a physical issue with the animal.

As for the meal being too large....I don't think so. Balls can consume some very large prey with respect to the percentage of their body weight. It is a common misconception with a grain of truth that you can feed them too large a meal to digest. Balls can and sometimes do ingest meals that they cannot digest, but the meal you described was about 19% of his body weight...well within his wheel house.

What's wrong with your snake? I don't know. Add some Benebac to his water, wait at least two weeks and try feeding him a prey item that is about 8 to 10 percent of his body weight. Keep his stress levels low and make sure your husbandry parameters are spot on. If he cannot handle the next meal, then there are a whole host of issues that could cause it. A qualified reptile vet should be consulted at that point.

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Originally Posted by LivingwithBalls

I know the cause, it was just too big

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No, it wasn't.

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Originally Posted by LivingwithBalls

I fed my 74 gram male ball python a 14 gram hopper mouse.

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That is well within normal limits. I've fed a 20g mouse to a 69g snake once and it took it fine. You probably should look to other reasons besides size of food for the regurge.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Add some Benebac to his water, wait at least two weeks and try feeding him a prey item that is about 8 to 10 percent of his body weight. Keep his stress levels low and make sure your husbandry parameters are spot on. If he cannot handle the next meal, then there are a whole host of issues that could cause it. A qualified reptile vet should be consulted at that point.

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BeneBAC/NutriBAC: http://beanfarm.com/product_info.php...oducts_id=5933

It's supposed to be added to the water but I'll dust a bit on a damp feeder as well. It's a probiotic that helps reptiles replenish their gut flora after a regurge.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

BeneBAC/NutriBAC: http://beanfarm.com/product_info.php...oducts_id=5933

It's supposed to be added to the water but I'll dust a bit on a damp feeder as well. It's a probiotic that helps reptiles replenish their gut flora after a regurge.

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Thanks I will look into it.


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