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  • 01-02-2015, 06:42 PM
    Skiploder
    Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Where did the current one time per weeks at 10% to 15% prey weight to snake weight come from? Any scientific data?

    Before anyone answers, research was done on other more active species. What was determined was that adult females roughly (190 grams) of this more active species with a quicker metabolism needed 25 to 30 rodents yearly to be able to produce viable, large clutches.

    For males of the same species, it was determined that 14 rodents would be required to sustain it's normal activity through the year.

    The study was based on 190 gram snakes (average) and 30 gram prey items (roughly 16% snake to prey weight ratio per meal).

    However if you calculate the TOTAL number of meals, a breeding female needed 900 grams of food over the course of a year and a male needed 420 grams of food.

    In order to compare apples to apples, the weekly caloric requirement breaks down as such:

    Females = 17 grams per week.

    Males = 8 grams per week.

    Which means that the % of snake to prey weight ratio for an active south american snake with a high metabolism is 8% for breeding females and 4% for males.

    Now keep in mind that these snakes are not equally active throughout the year - meaning that the females ingest the main portion of their caloric intake over a six month period. Males slightly longer. Still, if we apply it to captive animals which (except for rare instances) are kept in enclosures that do not permit the same level of energy expenditure, we could argue that the caloric requirements are less than the 8%/4% indicated by studies.

    So....

    Where do we get the 10% to 15% of body weight recommendations for ball pythons? They are fairly inactive snakes with slow metabolisms that are prone to captive obesity...can anybody back up this number? Furthermore, this caloric recommendation is not dependent on sex or reproductive status...or is it?

    Again, studies have been done on other species - species which are more active and have faster metabolisms. Metabolisms which are maybe 50% efficient.....

    ...and those studies show that these species need less calories by percentage of prey size than is currently being recommended for ball pythons.

    First things first - where did the 10% to 15"% number come from? Anybody?
  • 01-02-2015, 07:46 PM
    Mykuhl
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    I have no idea where the 10-15% recommendation came from but from the limited amount of reading I have done it seems to more accurately apply to young growing snakes as opposed to adults. Maybe it became a generalization that people applied over the lifetime of the snake.
  • 01-02-2015, 09:32 PM
    Eric Alan
    I suspect that you may be trying to get us to overthink this topic, or to point out that we may be overthinking this topic. Either way, here are my two cents worth:

    • The 10-15% guideline likely came about as a result of learned experience through feeding young ball pythons. I personally have not seen this size recommendation being made for anything beyond hatchling or young adult snakes. Citing Ball Pythons: The History, Natural History, Care, and Breeding, by Dave and Tracy Barker, as my source, "the best meal for a ball python is a single rodent that's large enough to make a barely discernible lump in its body that last for two to four days." Through trial and error of seeing what size lump results from what size rodent, I believe this to be where this site's 10-15% recommendation for young ball pythons came from.

    In my own, limited, experience with young ball pythons, I have found the 10-15% range to generally produce the kind of lump that the Barker's describe. This is why I personally have found it to be useful. It certainly should not be a rigid rule though, as feeding decisions should be specific to the individual snake.
  • 01-02-2015, 10:01 PM
    Skiploder
    Or none of the above.

    I think people should do more thinking and more questioning when it comes to advice that is not backed with any basis in nature or foundation in natural history.

    There are a lot of overfed snakes..mainly because people tend to follow advice or guidelines without bothering to ask questions.

    Let's put it this way....thinking is good. Questioning is good. Improving husbandry through science is good. Doing something because someone else goes it....too many variables to be good.
  • 01-02-2015, 10:10 PM
    Mykuhl
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Is there any scientific data that tells us the recommended quantity and frequency that is required to optimally raise ball pythons throughout their various stages of development? I for one would love to have this as a resource if there is. If so, do you have any links to this information Skiploder?
  • 01-02-2015, 10:15 PM
    Eric Alan
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Fair enough.

    As thinking pertains to this particular subject, thinking about the basis for the percentage-based feeding recommemdation is good. Thinking that it broadly applies to much more than a tool that can be used to purchase/select appropriately sized meals for a young ball python? Not so much. As you said - too many variables.
  • 01-02-2015, 10:23 PM
    Skiploder
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mykuhl View Post
    Is there any scientific data that tells us the recommended quantity and frequency that is required to optimally raise ball pythons throughout their various stages of development? I for one would love to have this as a resource if there is. If so, do you have any links to this information Skiploder?

    Never seen it for ball pythons Mykuhl. Seen it for other species and it's well beneath the 10 to 15% ratio.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Eric Alan View Post
    Fair enough.

    As thinking pertains to this particular subject, thinking about the basis for the percentage-based feeding recommemdation is good. Thinking that it broadly applies to much more than a tool that can be used to purchase/select appropriately sized meals for a young ball python? Not so much. As you said - too many variables.

    Eric, I've seen a lot of over feeding related health issues in many species of snakes. Some snakes do not metabolize high levels of fat very well and form lipomas or liposarcomas in a fairly predictable pattern if overfed.

    Considering that ball pythons - especially males - climb and feed on birds, we could probably hypothesize that the average tupperware-housed male ball python fed 15% of his body mass weekly in rodents is tracking quite a bit above what he was designed to take in considering the lack of activity.
  • 01-02-2015, 10:49 PM
    Eric Alan
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    When you're referring to males climbing and catching, are you referring to all life stages of males? It would make sense to me that sexually mature males would display these active behaviors. However, it also makes sense to me that younger snakes would be more prone to hiding and ambushing rodents (and likely as many as they can reasonably snag) so as not to expose themselves to predators.
  • 01-02-2015, 11:06 PM
    Lizardlicks
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    That reminds me to ask what most everyone's stance is on feeding the occasional chick to a BP is. As I understand it, while they do sometimes take birds in the wild, BPs are mostly designed as a burrow dwelling snake, and live primarily off of rodents. They are of course highly opportunistic in the wild; you have to eat what you can catch! But does offering different prey items have a benefit nutritionally or psychologically for the snake? Draw backs? The only one I ever see discussed is the inevitable horrendous smelling poo...

    Is it just something some owners do for their own amusement/peace of mind?
  • 01-02-2015, 11:19 PM
    gameonpython
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Skiploder, I must say that I agree with you. In fact, I never even heard of the 15% of body weight rule until I joined this forum. You are completely right in that advice is being given but no reasoning is provided and sometimes it doesn't even make logical sense. I did ask "why" and the answer I got was "doesn't matter why just do it"


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
  • 01-02-2015, 11:39 PM
    Skiploder
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Eric Alan View Post
    When you're referring to males climbing and catching, are you referring to all life stages of males? It would make sense to me that sexually mature males would display these active behaviors. However, it also makes sense to me that younger snakes would be more prone to hiding and ambushing rodents (and likely as many as they can reasonably snag) so as not to expose themselves to predators.

    Eric, there are two studies in which birds were noted as substantial parts of a ball python's diet - mainly male. One study was based on the gastric contents (I've provided it before to people), the other was a study regarding denning behavior in which the behavior was noted as prevalent. I'd have to refresh my memory as to whether it was associated with breeding behavior - in which males forego denning and ambushing while actively seeking out mates- or some other behavior.
  • 01-02-2015, 11:43 PM
    Skiploder
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Lizardlicks View Post
    That reminds me to ask what most everyone's stance is on feeding the occasional chick to a BP is. As I understand it, while they do sometimes take birds in the wild, BPs are mostly designed as a burrow dwelling snake, and live primarily off of rodents. They are of course highly opportunistic in the wild; you have to eat what you can catch! But does offering different prey items have a benefit nutritionally or psychologically for the snake? Draw backs? The only one I ever see discussed is the inevitable horrendous smelling poo...

    Is it just something some owners do for their own amusement/peace of mind?

    Well, while many people keep ball pythons as pets, not many people keep them long enough to fully realize how dietary choices ultimately affect these snakes.

    In other words, there may be long term consequences to feeding a snake who eats several different prey items just one item. I've seen it in boomslangs and other dispholidines that I've kept until they become senior citizens. Same with some other colubrids. They develop some debilitating health problems as they age.

    The behavior in males is deliberate - not necessarily casual. I'd have to re-read the papers as to the behavioral or biological necessity that drive avian predation.
  • 01-02-2015, 11:44 PM
    Skiploder
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gameonpython View Post
    Skiploder, I must say that I agree with you. In fact, I never even heard of the 15% of body weight rule until I joined this forum. You are completely right in that advice is being given but no reasoning is provided and sometimes it doesn't even make logical sense. I did ask "why" and the answer I got was "doesn't matter why just do it"


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

    It's always good to question things. If someone can't give you an answer, then you should always strive to provide your own.
  • 01-03-2015, 01:05 AM
    Skiploder
    Okay folks, here's an example I've been discussing with another member offline.

    That member has pits and kings and was wondering about dietary intake if set at 10 to 15%. No brumating is taking place.

    Studies have been done on the feeding habits of various pituophis, but remember those studies are on snakes in the wild - snakes that are actively foraging, digging burrows and brumating. These studies show that these snakes will eat prey that are anywhere from 1% to 136% of their body mass.

    However the mean (average prey size) is 21%.

    Now keep in mind that these snakes are brumating between October and April and actively feeding only 5 or 6 months out of the year. These snakes are also more active than anything kept in captivity.

    Without going into all the detail, let's try something...let's assume you have a bull snake that weighs 1000 grams. In the wild, that snake eats 20 weeks out of the year and consumes prey items 21% of it's body weight. That means that every week it's eating a prey item that weighs 210 grams. Over the course of the year, it then consumes 4,200 grams of prey (210 grams x 20 weeks).

    In captivity and in the absence of brumation, you are feeding that same snake 12.5% of it's mass every week (125 grams). That means that over 52 weeks, that same snake is getting 6,500 grams of food and it's working less to get it.

    In the wild, gopher snakes for example eat a diet that consists of about 75% mammals and 25% birds, bird eggs or lizards.

    In short, if the goal is to mimic what a wild and extremely active pit eats, you would adjust that percentage to get closer to the wild model. If you were to match the 4,200 grams over 52 weeks, the prey size percentage would drop from 12.5% to 8%.

    Now with king snakes, the average prey size mass is 33%. So with a hypothetical wild cal king weighing 1000 grams, it would eat an average meal of 330 grams for 20 weeks or a total of 6,600 grams in a year. The same animal if fed at the target 12.5% (10 to 15 range mean) over a year in captivity would be fed 6,500 grams (125 x 52 weeks) of food and no adjustment would be needed.

    Unless the lack of activity was taken into account.

    That's why it is important to question. Thats why it's important to look at what these animals eat in the wild. While there may be no psychological benefits per se, I think it behooves every keeper to not overfeed their snakes and to feed them a calorically proper diet.
  • 01-03-2015, 01:18 AM
    Mykuhl
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Thank you very much for providing that information Skiploder. It puts things into perspective. A snake kept in captivity will not be as active as one in the wild so it is only logical that we conclude that it will need to consume less calories. Also, as already stated ball pythons are not what you would consider an active species, so I think the 10-15% rule goes out the window for adults. Now what about growing baby/juvenile snakes, surely they would need to consume quite a bit more food(proportionately) than an adult since they are rapidly growing?

    I personally am somewhat more interested in the requirements of young snakes over that of adults.
  • 01-03-2015, 02:00 AM
    mohawk
    Came across this bit of info that relates to this discussion.............



    In his book “What’s Wrong with My Snake?” John Rossi DVM, MA cites a 1982 study by noted herpetologist H. S. Fitch, which found that snakes from temperate climates require between two and four times their body weight in food per year. For a typical 3-pound ball python (Python regius) this would equate to 6 to 12 pounds of food per year. If the snake eats rats that weigh approximately a quarter of a pound, a 3-pound ball python would require about 25 to 50 rats per year. Larger prey would allow for longer times between meals; this ball python could eat a 1-pound rat every other month, and still get enough food to survive and grow. To help provide context for these figures, the average American consumes approximately 2,000 pounds of food annually, or about 10 to 12 times the average human weight.
    Metabolism
    Cold-blooded animals like snakes have very slow metabolisms. Though snakes may produce extra metabolic heat when digesting prey, they typically don’t produce enough to heat the animal from the inside. As snakes require less food to fuel their furnaces, they can go long periods without eating. In addition to their normally slow metabolisms, some snakes can reduce their resting metabolic rate by 72 percent when food is scarce; this allows them to function on even fewer calories.
  • 01-03-2015, 02:29 AM
    Alicia
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    What a great idea for a thread.

    Quote:

    In his book “What’s Wrong with My Snake?” John Rossi DVM, MA cites a 1982 study by noted herpetologist H. S. Fitch, which found that snakes from temperate climates require between two and four times their body weight in food per year. For a typical 3-pound ball python (Python regius) this would equate to 6 to 12 pounds of food per year. If the snake eats rats that weigh approximately a quarter of a pound, a 3-pound ball python would require about 25 to 50 rats per year
    But ball pythons are not temperate snakes. They live in a long, geographic band between the Sahara and the equator.
  • 01-03-2015, 02:56 AM
    yl4870
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Alicia View Post
    What a great idea for a thread.



    But ball pythons are not temperate snakes. They live in a long, geographic band between the Sahara and the equator.


    Would that mean that they have much higher rates of metabolism?
  • 01-03-2015, 03:13 AM
    Alicia
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by yl4870 View Post
    Would that mean that they have much higher rates of metabolism?

    While I do not know if anyone has done a study on the metabolisms of ball pythons (have they??) . . . Based on my own observations, having kept temperate snakes, honestly, the opposite appears to be true.

    Ball pythons appear, to me, to have a slower metabolism than the temperate snakes I've kept when using rate of pooping as a measure. I'm mostly out of temperate snakes now, but I still have my old rosy boa -- even eating sparingly, she poops more than the balls. They also poop less frequently than Angolan and carpet pythons. My BPs poop about once a month; Angolans and the rosy (other than in winter), once a week to just over a week; my carpet poops about 2-3 weeks, but is on a 4-week feeding shedule. Carpet python poop, is a lot more BP poop in relation to their body size than what the Angolans and the rosy leave. I don't have any now, but as an example of a really high metabolism, temperate snake, garters I swear go daily.

    I know that's not scientific, but digestion is something I can observe at home. Maybe someone else can chime in.
  • 01-03-2015, 09:18 AM
    PitOnTheProwl
    I think there are some people that stick with what is "safe" when offering advice.
    If it is common practice in the hobby then there can be less fallout.
    I stick with certain recommendations like this as well, however I am also of the "just because it works in my house doesn't mean it will in yours."
    That being said, I have not been in this hobby as long as many of the members here that I have learned a lot from.
    Both what to and what not to do.

    As far as feedings go, I probably do overfeed because I offer weekly though I have my own twist on it.
    Hatchlings get offered every four or five days and I don't worry if they eat or not after they have taken a hopper on their own at least once.
    My adults get offered till they are done. This might be over feeding but I also keep track of their poos.
    If their body is using what they are eating then there should be minimal coming out of the other end.
    If they are leaving huge piles then their intake get regulated back.

    I know this is not very scientific as far as what Skip is looking for but it is what has been working for me.
  • 01-03-2015, 01:36 PM
    Lizardlicks
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl View Post
    I know this is not very scientific as far as what Skip is looking for but it is what has been working for me.

    Seems like without a whole lot of formal research done on the matter, comparing and contrasting our observations at home is going to be the most scientific we can get. It would be nice if something concrete was organized for data collection though!
  • 01-03-2015, 01:56 PM
    Skiploder
    Some food for thought - especially with regards to differing diets of male and female balls pythons:

    Concerning the python diet, Luiselli and Angelci (1998) demonstrated that, although rodents were the main prey type for both sexes, the males differed from the females because they fed significantly more often on arboreal prey (birds), whereas the female diet was based nearly exclusively on terrestrial rodents. The authors hypothesized that these differences were attributable to a higher use of the arboreal niche by males, as also suggested by some incidental observations of males climbed on low tree branches.


    So males are more apt to climb and also have adapted to actively hunt and make use of less calorically dense prey types.

    There are further studies that confirm this fact (increase arboreality of males vs. females/more varied diet) that were incidental to studies on why female and male ball pythons carry differing external parasite loads.

    I would therefore argue that even if 10% were adequate for a female, male ball pythons have been studies as more active hunters that could potentially expend more calories hunting down avian prey that have less calories than mammalian prey.

    A large rat is roughly 62% protein, 33% fat and has an energy rating of 6.40 kcal/gram of rat.

    A chick has a similar protein profile, but 11% less fat and an energy rating of 5.80 kcal/gram.

    However we can probably safely say that wild african songbirds and other ball python target prey items are more active and less fatty than a domestic chick or quail.

    Bottom line - even if 10% was a safe prey mass ratio for female ball pythons, it could easily be argued that if may be too much for males.
  • 01-03-2015, 02:01 PM
    Skiploder
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Alicia View Post
    While I do not know if anyone has done a study on the metabolisms of ball pythons (have they??) . . . Based on my own observations, having kept temperate snakes, honestly, the opposite appears to be true.

    Ball pythons appear, to me, to have a slower metabolism than the temperate snakes I've kept when using rate of pooping as a measure. I'm mostly out of temperate snakes now, but I still have my old rosy boa -- even eating sparingly, she poops more than the balls. They also poop less frequently than Angolan and carpet pythons. My BPs poop about once a month; Angolans and the rosy (other than in winter), once a week to just over a week; my carpet poops about 2-3 weeks, but is on a 4-week feeding shedule. Carpet python poop, is a lot more BP poop in relation to their body size than what the Angolans and the rosy leave. I don't have any now, but as an example of a really high metabolism, temperate snake, garters I swear go daily.

    I know that's not scientific, but digestion is something I can observe at home. Maybe someone else can chime in.

    I have beaked snakes and dispholidines that will process a prey item in less than 30 hours. Same with psammophylax and philodryas spp. But these area active, quick moving snakes - even in captivity.

    Drymarchon, if offered a thermoregulation zone will poop within a few days of feeding.

    Ball pythons poop slow...they move slow and once their husbandry needs are met, move very rarely. I'd argue that even without a study, we can say they have at least a slower metabolism than many other species.

    What I'd like to see if a study regarding the efficiency of the metabolism of ball pythons. In south american colubrids, that efficiency is about 50%. In some african colubrids, that number goes up a few points. Never seen one on ball pythons...
  • 01-04-2015, 12:05 PM
    Mike41793
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    I've never followed the 10-15% rule because I don't have time to weigh all the rodents out before feeding them and weigh all the snakes out to figure what they need.

    A full grown ASF (which is supposedly the natural food source they see in the wild) is smaller than a medium rat. And obviously in the wild they're not ONLY eating full grown ASFs lol. So these people that feed medium or even large rats to their females weekly amaze me lol. I'm happy if my females eat 3 small rats a month and males eat 2 a month. That is considered a great month for me haha. Meanwhile there are some breeders I know who get like 6 mediums or larger into their girls a month. That's sooooooo much food imo. Haha

    Like pit said, about monitoring their bowl movements too. I agree with that heavily. Compared to other snakes I've worked with, balls seem to be more proficient at converting meals to weight. I'd assume fat storage for going through the breeding process, they need energy for that. Males obviously don't need that at all, so it's unnecessary to pack them with food. Anyways, like I was saying, if my females are eating well and not taking these huge craps, then I consider that a win because to me that means they're putting it to good use and it's not a waste.

    Really, it's a constant learning process for me while working with these snakes. What doesn't work one year gets adjusted the next year. What works one year may still get adjusted, just for fun to see what else works. I like to experiment with them and try different methods for every aspect of keeping them. It's fun learning more and more about them that way. :)
  • 01-04-2015, 12:36 PM
    Skiploder
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mike41793 View Post
    Compared to other snakes I've worked with, balls seem to be more proficient at converting meals to weight. I'd assume fat storage for going through the breeding process, they need energy for that. Males obviously don't need that at all, so it's unnecessary to pack them with food. Anyways, like I was saying, if my females are eating well and not taking these huge craps, then I consider that a win because to me that means they're putting it to good use and it's not a waste.

    Really, it's a constant learning process for me while working with these snakes. What doesn't work one year gets adjusted the next year. What works one year may still get adjusted, just for fun to see what else works. I like to experiment with them and try different methods for every aspect of keeping them. It's fun learning more and more about them that way. :)

    Apparently, only trivial amounts of energy are expended during the brooding/maternal incubation process...

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...03347204004877
  • 01-04-2015, 01:02 PM
    Mike41793
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Skiploder View Post
    Apparently, only trivial amounts of energy are expended during the brooding/maternal incubation process...

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...03347204004877

    Interesting! Well, even more evidence to back up my point then. They don't need the big mediums and large rats. Like I said, three meals a month for my females is considered good for me.

    And as you said, if males aren't busy searching for food and just sitting in tubs, they certainly don't need excess haha.

    I think this raises another debate that people love to have.... Breeding females need to be at least 1500g before you start pairing... Wrong! 6% of 1200g means the female would only lose 72g throughout the breeding process. Not a huge deal. Even if they were losing 10%, it wouldn't be a significant amount of body weight. Because what they lose is probably just fat or water weight anyways lol. I stopped eating dairy less than six months ago and have lost 15% of my body weight, without changing anything else about my diet or lifestyle. Does that mean you won't pair me to any of the hot mom's with tattoos and piercings like you did last year, uncle skippy?!?! :(
  • 01-04-2015, 01:29 PM
    Lizardlicks
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mike41793 View Post
    Interesting! Well, even more evidence to back up my point then. They don't need the big mediums and large rats. Like I said, three meals a month for my females is considered good for me.

    And as you said, if males aren't busy searching for food and just sitting in tubs, they certainly don't need excess haha.

    I think this raises another debate that people love to have.... Breeding females need to be at least 1500g before you start pairing... Wrong! 6% of 1200g means the female would only lose 72g throughout the breeding process. Not a huge deal. Even if they were losing 10%, it wouldn't be a significant amount of body weight. Because what they lose is probably just fat or water weight anyways lol. I stopped eating dairy less than six months ago and have lost 15% of my body weight, without changing anything else about my diet or lifestyle. Does that mean you won't pair me to any of the hot mom's with tattoos and piercings like you did last year, uncle skippy?!?! :(

    Postulation from anecdata (that is, I'm not being very scientific about this, just putting together stuff I've heard): could the 1500 grams rule have come from people wanting to breed their females early? I see a lot of threads about "power feeding" and trying to get females up to "breeding size" within one or two years instead of waiting the full three. From what I've gathered reading stories from breeders that have been in the hobby for a while, putting the females in too young tends to ruin the clutch anyway. They tend to slug out, and you just wasted your time and energy on a long shot project. I don't think I've seen anything relating to the long term health of the animal, but I wouldn't be surprised if it affected that as well
  • 01-04-2015, 10:03 PM
    Skiploder
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mike41793 View Post
    I stopped eating dairy less than six months ago and have lost 15% of my body weight, without changing anything else about my diet or lifestyle. Does that mean you won't pair me to any of the hot mom's with tattoos and piercings like you did last year, uncle skippy?!?! :(


    As for the hot moms with the tatts and piercings - my sister did get divorced and met a new guy. She comes with the baggage of four kids. Two of the kids are pretty normal, but three of the four do have bed wetting issues well past the age of 8. I think a few of them are medicated...for an alphabet soup of issues. Good news is that all of those are genetic defects that came from her ex-husband's side of the family. Oh, and I think two have some serious speech impediments...but she is related to me, which means that if you can run her down before menopause hits and your genes are fairly tight, she'll probably bear you a couple of healthy brats.

    So sadly, you missed the boat. There's a pretty good looking Korean chick where I work...I've caught her staring pretty hard at me a few times but she has strabismus so she may be looking at the wall behind me for all I know. She's in her late 30s, but if you send me a pick maybe we can set your new skinnier self up.

    I'll need a couple of full body shots. Go ahead and post them up here. After I plaster them all over Grindr I'll see if my co-worker is interested.
  • 01-05-2015, 04:14 PM
    Mike41793
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Skiploder View Post
    As for the hot moms with the tatts and piercings - my sister did get divorced and met a new guy. She comes with the baggage of four kids. Two of the kids are pretty normal, but three of the four do have bed wetting issues well past the age of 8. I think a few of them are medicated...for an alphabet soup of issues. Good news is that all of those are genetic defects that came from her ex-husband's side of the family. Oh, and I think two have some serious speech impediments...but she is related to me, which means that if you can run her down before menopause hits and your genes are fairly tight, she'll probably bear you a couple of healthy brats.

    So sadly, you missed the boat. There's a pretty good looking Korean chick where I work...I've caught her staring pretty hard at me a few times but she has strabismus so she may be looking at the wall behind me for all I know. She's in her late 30s, but if you send me a pick maybe we can set your new skinnier self up.

    I'll need a couple of full body shots. Go ahead and post them up here. After I plaster them all over Grindr I'll see if my co-worker is interested.

    I can't post pics here, I'm too shy and self conscious. Come do a photoshoot with me. It's feeding day for the snakes. Fourth one this week! :)
  • 01-07-2015, 03:29 AM
    Sonny1318
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    I can not sincerely express my gratitude for this post/thread. Thank you skiploder.
  • 01-08-2015, 02:38 PM
    Kaorte
    Interesting topic and something I also wondered. I never was able to feed my adults weekly as they just wouldn't be hungry that often.

    Do you think there might be any link between fasting ball pythons and being overfed?
  • 01-08-2015, 04:31 PM
    Alicia
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kaorte View Post
    Interesting topic and something I also wondered. I never was able to feed my adults weekly as they just wouldn't be hungry that often.

    Do you think there might be any link between fasting ball pythons and being overfed?


    I don't know, but I've heard tell of a link between overfeeding and putting on too much fat, and fasting. I've also heard tell of a link between a female being too fatty and being more likely to throw slugs or fail to eggs at all.

    Just from my own observation again, but I've never been able to consistently feed adult BPs rats 10 - 15% of their body weight. They would take one or two, usually just one, over a couple weeks and then stop eating. My only exception to that at this point is a rather large male. So I, too, feed smalls (like, 35-45 gram smalls) to all the ball pythons a year and over, offered once a week unless the snake is in shed or some other snaky life event is going on. (For instance, I didn't offer any food to Dahlia while she was brooding her eggs.)
  • 01-08-2015, 04:35 PM
    Kaorte
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Alicia View Post
    I don't know, but I've heard tell of a link between overfeeding and putting on too much fat, and fasting. I've also heard tell of a link between a female being too fatty and being more likely to throw slugs or fail to eggs at all.

    Just from my own observation again, but I've never been able to consistently feed adult BPs rats 10 - 15% of their body weight. They would take one or two, usually just one, over a couple weeks and then stop eating. My only exception to that at this point is a rather large male. So I, too, feed smalls (like, 35-45 gram smalls) to all the ball pythons a year and over, offered once a week unless the snake is in shed or some other snaky life event is going on. (For instance, I didn't offer any food to Dahlia while she was brooding her eggs.)

    I think its highly likely. They have so much fat built up that they are just like "dude, I'm cool for a bit". I've had a BP go off feed for over 8 months. She lost a little weight, but nothing noteworthy. One day she just felt like eating again.
  • 01-08-2015, 06:01 PM
    Skiploder
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kaorte View Post
    Interesting topic and something I also wondered. I never was able to feed my adults weekly as they just wouldn't be hungry that often.

    Do you think there might be any link between fasting ball pythons and being overfed?

    How long does it take a ball python to digest an "appropriately" size meal?

    What does that length tell us about the metabolism of a ball python? What does the speed of metabolism tell us about their dietary requirements?

    If a psammophylax acutus - a fairly active African colubrid - digests a meal in under 48 hours and a ball python which is fairly inactive takes 10 to 14 days, what logical conclusion could we draw from that?
  • 01-08-2015, 06:03 PM
    Kaorte
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Skiploder View Post
    How long does it take a ball python to digest an "appropriately" size meal?

    What does that length tell us about the metabolism of a ball python? What does the speed of metabolism tell us about their dietary requirements?

    If a psammophylax acutus - a fairly active African colubrid - digests a meal in under 48 hours and a ball python which is fairly inactive takes 10 to 14 days, what logical conclusion could we draw from that?

    That they really don't NEED to eat every 7 days! ~gasp~

    :gj:

    I remember a guy at NARBC giving a talk about his feeding habits and it went a little something like this... "when I remember" LOL
  • 01-08-2015, 06:23 PM
    Skiploder
    Aerobic and Anaerobic Metabolism During Activity in Snakes - John A. Ruben - Journal of Comparative Physiology 1976

    Bottom Line: energy production correlates directly and irrefutably with their activity modes.

    For example, are they active or passive hunters? Do they den or roam? In other words, the more activity they require to successfully survive, the more energy they need...

    ...and the faster they burn (metabolize) that energy.

    A coachwhip needs more food than a rosy boa.

    So if:

    1. We always hear the 10% to 15% rule thrown out there.
    2. Studies were done decades ago that illustrate that metabolism is linked with energy requirements which are linked to activity.
    3. The speed of that metabolism correlates to same.
    4. The studies have been done on enough snake species to draw some intelligent conclusions.
    5. Studies have been done on enough snake species to have an intelligent discussion.
    6. Overfeeding is enough of an issue that vets note it as do many keepers.

    Why do we not come up with a new guideline to advise new keepers?
  • 01-08-2015, 06:42 PM
    bcr229
    I thought the 10-15% rule was for babies/juveniles up to 500 grams, and then offering a small rat weekly after that was sufficient for males, while a building female could take a medium rat weekly and look for more, but otherwise a small was fine.


    As a sidebar to the input side of the digestion equation, has anyone else noted that just prior to ending a months-long fast that their BP's go poop?
  • 01-08-2015, 06:45 PM
    Kaorte
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Skiploder View Post
    Why do we not come up with a new guideline to advise new keepers?

    I dunno! Lets do it.

    I would assume we would have to address the feeding amount for hatchlings, juveniles, and once they are mature, adult females and males all separately.

    Hatchlings
    Juveniles
    Adult Males
    Adult Females

    What would you consider an approximate gram weight to be for each of these groups? I assume the line between Juvies and Adults to be blurry between males and females since males are generally 'mature' at a smaller size.

    Once that is figured out, we could approximate a a gram amount (or percentage) of rodent that the animal needs based on their activity levels.


    This is an important topic. I haven't used the 10-15% rule in many years because I just eyeball it or feed whatever is on hand. I know I have seen many obese ball pythons. You can't just feed them every time they are hungry. Its like giving a kid as much food as they want and being confused when they get fat. I even saw one posted on the forum today, and the keeper was proud of their size. :( People will overfeed hoping to breed them sooner, but all that ends up happening is they slug out.
  • 01-08-2015, 07:14 PM
    Eric Alan
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bcr229 View Post
    As a sidebar to the input side of the digestion equation, has anyone else noted that just prior to ending a months-long fast that their BP's go poop?

    I have one girl that's going to be absolutely starving come feeding day following her 2+ month fast and massive BM this week. How does something poop so much when they haven't eaten in so long? Metabolism is a funny thing...
  • 01-08-2015, 11:33 PM
    Skiploder
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Eric Alan View Post
    I have one girl that's going to be absolutely starving come feeding day following her 2+ month fast and massive BM this week. How does something poop so much when they haven't eaten in so long? Metabolism is a funny thing...

    Eric, studies have been done on pythons with regards to seasonal changes in body temperature, which affect many biological functions - most noteworthy - digestion.

    These studies proved that elevated temperature was associated with a faster and larger metabolic increase after ingestion. They also showed that the time required to return to fasting levels was measurably longer at lower temperatures.

    The term specific dynamic action (SDA) is used to describe the increase in metabolism following food ingestion. This specific study showed that the integrated SDA response was not affected by temperature. The conclusion was drawn that specific snake species choose to raise their body temperatures during digestion to reduce the overall time required for digestion.

    What does this gibberish mean?

    Higher temps mean faster digestion. The studies species of python did not, however, need elevated temperatures to digest. Which may be the sane answer to the oft asked question "Why is my snake on the cold side after eating?"

    Snakes who were held at lower temperatures digested their food more slowly and needed to eat less (returned to fasting levels - which indicates CO2 Uptake and oxygen levels measured prior to feeding).

    Bottom line, the longer the snake takes to digest there food, the less they need to eat.

    Which leads me to my next question. Ball pythons do not bask. They are nocturnal and den during the day, specifically seeking burrows within a specific temperature range. The question therefore is:

    Why provide a basking (hot spot)?

    Several successful keepers do not do it, digestion of food is not dependent on it and they do not do it in the wild.

    Also, how many new keepers incorrectly use uncontrolled heat sources and injure or kill their animals while trying to provide a husbandry parameter that this particular species does not need.
  • 01-08-2015, 11:44 PM
    Skiploder
    From Meal size effects on the postprandial metabolic response of Bothrops alternatus (Serpentes: Viperidae)
    Rodrigo S. B. Gavira1,2 & Denis V. Andrade
    1


    "As the cost of meal digestion varied proportionally with the energy content of the meal, the relative cost of meal digestion (i.e., SDA coefficient) was not affected by meal size. Thus, the ingestion of a large or small prey accounted for the same relative energetic investment.

    However, in absolute terms, larger prey still provides an energetic return substantially greater than smaller prey. In fact, whereas the difference in the absolute cost of digestion between G20% compared with G5% represents an additional investment of only 95 kJ.kg- 1, the absolute energy return obtained from a 20% prey is 1,257 kJ.kg-1 greater than that provided by the ingestion of a 5% prey (see Table I). Therefore, for a sit-and-wait snake species, the acquisition of a single large meal may still result in important energetic advantage compared to a small meal item, even if they have the same relative cost. Furthermore, the successful capture of a large prey item may result in important ecological advantages related to survival, growth, and allocation of time and energy to different activities (GREENE 1983).


    Again, food for thought. Sit and wait snake species (female ball pythons) benefit from larger infrequent meals.

    More active species, conversely do better with smaller more frequent meals.

    One rule does not hold reign. What works for a female ball python may not work as well for a younger male ball python and certainly does not work for a cribo or other active hunter.
  • 01-08-2015, 11:56 PM
    AlexisFitzy
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kaorte View Post
    I dunno! Lets do it.

    I would assume we would have to address the feeding amount for hatchlings, juveniles, and once they are mature, adult females and males all separately.

    Hatchlings
    Juveniles
    Adult Males
    Adult Females

    What would you consider an approximate gram weight to be for each of these groups? I assume the line between Juvies and Adults to be blurry between males and females since males are generally 'mature' at a smaller size.

    Once that is figured out, we could approximate a a gram amount (or percentage) of rodent that the animal needs based on their activity levels.


    This is an important topic. I haven't used the 10-15% rule in many years because I just eyeball it or feed whatever is on hand. I know I have seen many obese ball pythons. You can't just feed them every time they are hungry. Its like giving a kid as much food as they want and being confused when they get fat. I even saw one posted on the forum today, and the keeper was proud of their size. :( People will overfeed hoping to breed them sooner, but all that ends up happening is they slug out.

    I would like to know the answer to this first before we move on to the next subject of hot spots being futile or not.
  • 01-09-2015, 12:16 AM
    AlexisFitzy
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Shoot I tried to edit my post but I took to long, I just read your most resent post Skip. I think all of this information is really interesting but still a little confusing when it comes to making new dietary requirements that would incorporate all of the things mentioned in this thread. Hopefully I'm not the only one that is asking themselves "Now how much should I feed my ball pythons exactly to keep them healthy?"
  • 01-09-2015, 12:29 AM
    Skiploder
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AlexisFitzy View Post
    I would like to know the answer to this first before we move on to the next subject of hot spots being futile or not.

    The hot spot has to be figured in. No hot spot = lower digestion, slower return to needing to be fed again. ;)

    We can't answer questions without making an informed decision.

    For the record, I would not call hot spots futile. I would call them not necessary and completely optional.

    Keep this in mind: the ball python laying in wait does not weigh it's food. It eats when hungry and it attempts to predate on animals it feels it can ingest and flees from those it can't. One month it may eat a meal 20% of it's weight and it then doesn't eat for 7 weeks when it then takes something that's 10% of it's weight.

    The idea here is to disabuse people of the notion that an inactive captive snake needs a 15% of its mass prey item every week. The idea here is to get people thinking about what they need, when to give it to them and how to optimize husbandry around that energy requirement.

    I can make an educated stab at Steffe's question, but I can't answer it with any surety.

    What I would need is a study that shows what different ball pythons at different ages consume in the wild and the energy expended per year and the energy consumed per year. Only then could I attempt to ascribe an absolute educated answer to the question.

    Alexis, there is a lot of data here. Read it, think about it and tell me only two things:

    1. What and how would you feed a female ball python (adult) in a tub?
    2. What and how would you feed a male ball python (adult) in a tub?

    Then answer why. :)
  • 01-09-2015, 12:31 AM
    Skiploder
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AlexisFitzy View Post
    Shoot I tried to edit my post but I took to long, I just read your most resent post Skip. I think all of this information is really interesting but still a little confusing when it comes to making new dietary requirements that would incorporate all of the things mentioned in this thread. Hopefully I'm not the only one that is asking themselves "Now how much should I feed my ball pythons exactly to keep them healthy?"

    How much and how often?
  • 01-09-2015, 01:02 AM
    Eric Alan
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Skiploder View Post
    Eric, studies have been done on pythons with regards to seasonal changes in body temperature, which affect many biological functions - most noteworthy - digestion.

    Lots of information/gibberish...

    Bottom line, the longer the snake takes to digest there food, the less they need to eat.

    Of course this all makes sense. In a world where common sense is closer to an oxymoron than a standard, I was under the impression that much of this was pretty straightforward information. To be honest, I'd have been surprised if the studies had found otherwise.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Skiploder View Post
    Which leads me to my next question. Ball pythons do not bask. They are nocturnal and den during the day, specifically seeking burrows within a specific temperature range. The question therefore is:

    Why provide a basking (hot spot)?

    Personally, I have never really thought of a "basking spot" in that way. I try to create/control in my captive environment a temperature range that is similar to the range found in their natural habitat (which is thankfully relatively narrow and fairly easy to replicate). Doing so, in my estimation, allows them to choose a resting spot that best fits their needs at the time. As long as the range I provide is consistent, I don't worry what side of the enclosure they may be on. They know their environmental temperature requirements at any given moment far better than I.

    On a similar note, I understand that some keepers are very successful not providing that gradient and choose to maintain a more consistent ambient temperature. I, however, feel that if I did that, I may not be meeting the needs of each individual snake in my collection. Is this feeling based on any evidence? I don't know. Does it make sense to me, though, that some snakes would prefer slightly warmer or slightly cooler temperatures than other snakes to be the most comfortable they could be? Absolutely. This is why I give them the ability to choose and provide a "basking spot" in my racks.
  • 01-09-2015, 01:37 AM
    Jhill001
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Skiploder View Post

    Alexis, there is a lot of data here. Read it, think about it and tell me only two things:

    1. What and how would you feed a female ball python (adult) in a tub?
    2. What and how would you feed a male ball python (adult) in a tub?

    Then answer why. :)


    Side question, does a snakes activity level (active species or inactive) increase or decrease when placed into a larger than "recommended" enclosure. For example an adult male ball python gets kept in a 75 gallon decorated tank with stuff to crawl on, now let's do that with a Rosy Boa, a bull snake, a corn and a milk snake, any other 20-40gallon recommended species. Do they take advantage of the room, if so does this affect feeding needs/other husbandry things. If not, then why don't they take advantage of the space"?

    Does getting your snake out to handle them increase metabolism? One would have to assume. Has anyone ever tried putting an unwilling feeder on an exercise program by taking them out and getting them moving? Literally just brain storming here. Does anyone have an exercise program for any of there herps in the interest of preventing obesity? I know of some people who give beardies a shallow bath to help with sheds, does this double as extra exercise/stimulation that can help improve husbandry?

    I'm out of Doritos so I don't have the energy to talk about exercise anymore.
  • 01-09-2015, 01:51 AM
    Skiploder
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Eric Alan View Post
    Of course this all makes sense. In a world where common sense is closer to an oxymoron than a standard, I was under the impression that much of this was pretty straightforward information. To be honest, I'd have been surprised if the studies had found

    If it's so straightforward, then why are people over feeding their snakes? We've been dancing for five pages and no one drew that simple conclusion. Sometimes common sense and common practice are not the same.

    Drymarchon bask, but many people who keep them don't provide them with basking spots.
    Ball pythons don't normally bask, but many people who keep them provide them with basking spots.

    We advise giving a ball python three thermoregulation zones in captivity, but in reality they by and large choose one site in the wild that changes slightly as the day progresses....then they emerge to cooler temps at night.

    Ever thought that since temps and digestion go hand in hand that we are stimulating them to consume more by providing them 92 degree hot spots to lay on?
  • 01-09-2015, 02:01 AM
    Skiploder
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jhill001 View Post
    Side question, does a snakes activity level (active species or inactive) increase or decrease when placed into a larger than "recommended" enclosure. For example an adult male ball python gets kept in a 75 gallon decorated tank with stuff to crawl on, now let's do that with a Rosy Boa, a bull snake, a corn and a milk snake, any other 20-40gallon recommended species. Do they take advantage of the room, if so does this affect feeding needs/other husbandry things. If not, then why don't they take advantage of the space"?

    Does getting your snake out to handle them increase metabolism? One would have to assume. Has anyone ever tried putting an unwilling feeder on an exercise program by taking them out and getting them moving? Literally just brain storming here. Does anyone have an exercise program for any of there herps in the interest of preventing obesity? I know of some people who give beardies a shallow bath to help with sheds, does this double as extra exercise/stimulation that can help improve husbandry?

    I'm out of Doritos so I don't have the energy to talk about exercise anymore.

    Totally dependent on species.

    The natural history of a male ball pythons tells use that if given ample room and a suitable den it will den during the day and then roam at night to hunt, climb trees, seek out female ball pythons, etc. The area it has to cover to fulfill those imperatives is much greater in the wild than in a tank and better in a a tank than a tub.

    Any activity increases the expenditure of energy and fuel is burned (metabolism) to meet that expenditure. Considering how affected these animals are by stress, I would suggest feeding less in favor of exercising them in some way.

    I keep dispholidines in large arboreal cages and they are constantly moving. While they need to cover larger distances in the wild to find food and shelter, it certainly is better than stuffing them in a tub. Same for drys. Giver them the room and they will use it. They will use a nest or a burrow, they will bask for periods during the day and they will move around in their cages. Difference is that restlessness is an indicator of stress in ball but not in some select other species.

    We have inexorably tied successful feeding into being a good keeper. We feel bad when a snake refuses food. In many cases we overfeed them not only because we don't really know their caloric needs, but also because when they eat, we feel some measure of accomplishment.
  • 01-09-2015, 09:22 AM
    Kaorte
    Re: Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons
    I've always told people to not stress out when their snake stopes eating. Its not as if they'll starve themselves.

    In my opinion, a ball python won't take advantage of a large tank like some other species will. Once it finds a comfy spot it stays there.

    1. What and how would you feed a female ball python in a tub.

    Hot spot of 90. Small rat 35-50g every 2 weeks. 42 qt tub. 1500g+ snake.

    2. What and how would you feed a male ball python in a tub.

    Hot spot of 90. Small rat 30-40g every two weeks. 32/42qt tub. 1000g snake.
    This isn't exactly what I do every time, but its a jumping off point I guess.
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