Zoo Med UTH

So I have been struggling with getting a good hot spot temp in my Ball Python tank. I am using a 50 watt bulb on my 10 gallon tank but it doesn't get up to 90 degrees. Plus I know that belly warmth is better for BPs.
So I got a zoomed Under Tank Heater mini size, 4 watts. I didn't want to buy a thermostat so I went with the smaller wattage because I thought there'd be less chance of over heating (I've read some horror stories about overheating). So now I'm wondering how much will this heat pad actually raise the temp? Could I forgo the lamp and just use the pad or should I use both together? And then of course is it possible to overheat with only 4 watts?
Thanks http://www.herpcenter.com/images/smilies/smile.png
And then at night I want to just use a nighttime 50watt bulb.
My lamp has a 60watt limit which is why I am not using my 100 watt bulb. But I also bought a 100 watt lamp, would that heat my 10 gallon tank too much?

Tl;dr I've got a 4 watt UTH and a 100 watt lamp, which one should I use to heat my 10 gallon tank?

The heat pad does not raise the ambient temp, it just provides belly heat. All UTH's can get dangerously hot if not controlled bu a t-stat. You can do whatever you want, but I would recommend getting a proper sized UTH for your tank size, and controlling it with a thermostat..Good luck:gj:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...ps3928d384.jpg

Yes, this is the next size up from the 4 wt and this was only after a couple minutes of running.
Please regulate OR don't use it at all.

Okay so would I use a lamp to raise ambient temperature?

And that's why I got the 4 watt one. Could I put it the UTH on a timer instead?

The way I understand it if your ambient temps are in the upper 80 range then you can get by without a hot spot. No I wouldn't put a UTH on a timer. It will get way too hot in just a couple minutes. Look at the pic Pit posted after just a couple minutes:O

I'd play it safe and get either a cheaper, but good, thermostat (see the hydrofarms... about $35 and good performance) or you can usually make it work with a rheostat (lamp dimmer) IF you have an accurate thermometer (like the accurite) that has a probe to put directly on the hot spot. I used a rheostat when I was getting started and it worked, but it took a couple days playing with it to find the right setting and I had to check it like 7x a day to make sure it was still at the right temp (as the room temp changes you have to adjust the rheostat).

Lamps will work to raise your ambient temp, but 3 things: 1. It will suck humidity out of your tank (there's a tank screen top foil tutorial that will help you with this somewhere on this site.. it's a sticky). 2. Get one on a dimmer or hook it up to a dimmer so you can adjust to the right temp. 3. Use either a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) or a red / black light bulb so that you can leave it on all the time and not mess up the day / night cycle.

I know all the equiptment seems expensive and a pain, but in the long run, it'll be cheaper to spend $15 on a good thermometer and $40 on a deacent t-stat rather than $100+ on a vet bill for burns. The one expensive thermostat I have (herpstat) I consider my best investment in terms of $$. I actually requested amazon gift cards for my birthday and then pooled them together to buy it (the bean farm sold it off of amazon as an independent seller).

Good luck.

Why did you by an animal if you don't want to care for it properly? All you did was waste money on a uth that is going to be to small very soon.

A tstat is an absolute with any uth, a timer will not work.

You can certainly create the proper ambient and surface temp with a heat lamp alone. The ambient temp only needs to be 80, not 90. The hotspot in a range of 85-90 will be good.

A 100w bulb is way to much for a ten gallon tank they are suggested forforty gallons and up.

Your best bet to get a heat lamp dialed in is by using a rheostat commonly referred to as a dimmer.

Obviously I want to take good care of my snake :/ why is that even a question?
Anyway, I got the heat mat, it works fine, and I think I like that it's only 4 watts. The surface of the substrate is only 90 right now after about 6 hours turning it on.
I'm looking at thermostats now. Where would I put the probe? Should I put it at the bottom of the tank, or in the middle of the substrate?
I checked the temperatures at all levels and its a pretty big difference (100+ at the very bottom, 97 in the substrate, and 90 on the surface) so where would I put the probe?

Also can I keep my 50 watt lamp to control the ambient temp?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by artgecko

I'd play it safe and get either a cheaper, but good, thermostat (see the hydrofarms... about $35 and good performance) or you can usually make it work with a rheostat (lamp dimmer) IF you have an accurate thermometer (like the accurite) that has a probe to put directly on the hot spot. I used a rheostat when I was getting started and it worked, but it took a couple days playing with it to find the right setting and I had to check it like 7x a day to make sure it was still at the right temp (as the room temp changes you have to adjust the rheostat).

Lamps will work to raise your ambient temp, but 3 things: 1. It will suck humidity out of your tank (there's a tank screen top foil tutorial that will help you with this somewhere on this site.. it's a sticky). 2. Get one on a dimmer or hook it up to a dimmer so you can adjust to the right temp. 3. Use either a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) or a red / black light bulb so that you can leave it on all the time and not mess up the day / night cycle.

I know all the equiptment seems expensive and a pain, but in the long run, it'll be cheaper to spend $15 on a good thermometer and $40 on a deacent t-stat rather than $100+ on a vet bill for burns. The one expensive thermostat I have (herpstat) I consider my best investment in terms of $$. I actually requested amazon gift cards for my birthday and then pooled them together to buy it (the bean farm sold it off of amazon as an independent seller).

Good luck.

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Is this the Hydrofarm thermostat? http://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-MTPR...mostat+reptile

A tstat probe goes between the UTH and the tank bottom, on the outside. The thermometer probe can go wherever you want it really. Whatever you want to monitor.

The UTH should only have at most 1/4 inch of substrate over it. This keeps the UTH at a temp that will not harm your snake if the substrate is moved and laid on directly. Having a thick substrate you will need to keep the UTH at a high temperature so the heat can reach the top of the substrate.

Yes, you can use the lamp too. On my 40 gallon in a cold room I have a uth, che, and heat bulb.

I questioned your post because it did not seem as if you wanted to do things correctly and instead choose to do things half way which is not safe for your snake. You should have done a bit more research here and we could have helped you get things right the first time, saving you time and money.

I use Herpstat and love them.

To ride on KMG's coat tails, I would not be comfortable with a temperature reading over 95 at any level of substrate my BP could reach. Like KMG said, substrate gets moved around an inevitably you'll end up with a BP lying directly on the bottom of the enclosure without any substrate below them. You still want this place to be at a safe temperature for them. 100+ (even 97) is definitely not a safe temperature for your BP.

The temp on the top of whatever substrate you are using doesn't matter, your snake can and will burrow.
We all learn at different speeds, the problem here is the animal can suffer because you think something is okay.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...ps323f13c8.jpg
Wish I would have taken pictures when I first got her. This is a couple years later and yes the scar is still healing.

Just curious... So many snake burns on the belly happen with underbelly heating, and the dangerous heat rocks that some people use for some reason... I wonder why the snake sits there and burns- does it not hurt them? Why don't they move?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spartacus

Just curious... So many snake burns on the belly happen with underbelly heating, and the dangerous heat rocks that some people use for some reason... I wonder why the snake sits there and burns- does it not hurt them? Why don't they move?

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I have often wondered that too, no one has ever really explained. Maybe they don't have nerve endings on their belly..:confusd:

Cold blooded, by the time they feel it it is too late

Yeah I read it's because they can't feel it.

Anyway, I've kept the UTH on for 10-12 hours for two days now, turning it off at night and monitoring the temp frequently, and it's really not getting that hot at all. At most it's 90 at the surface, 97 at under the substrate. And it's only 100 at the way bottom of the tank, it's not possible for the python to get down there. I have a carpet blocking the way. I'm gonna keep watching it while I wait for tstat.

I use a 50 watt bulb and it heats the hot side to 86ish at most 88. Do I even need the UTH? Could I just turn it on for the two days after feeding?

wish you better luck than thousands that knew better before you.....................

The highest I've clocked one at was 142°F. If you don't believe me I'll go plug one in right now and take pics. It's not ok to run one without a T-stat.

so
do I need a UTH if my bulb can get the ambient to 88?

what size mats are you guys using? mine is only 4 watts. The physical mat get hot but by the time it reaches the substrate a lot of heat is lost in the glass tank, carpet, and air (my tank is raised like half an inch).

The bulb will kill the humidity in the tank, an uth is definitely better to use.

The smaller zoo med one and the larger one. If your ball burrows down to the glass it can get burned.

Your snake most certainly CAN get under the carpet and reach the uth. It has happened before to others. We are speaking from knowledge not guessing.

Do you have an IR temp gun?

An ambient temp of 88 is pretty high. It only needs to be around 77-80. Having a ambient temp of 88 it is very possible that the bulb is creating a hotspot over 100.

I am currently setting up heating in a spare 20L tank for when I need to board my snake with a friend. I'm using a CHE and a UTH, both regulated by a Herpstat, and let me tell you, it is an absolute struggle to keep the temps within a safe range. I set the CHE to keep a steady 84 in the center of the tank, set my UTH (which is outside the tank, so it has a layer of glass to heat through) to 90, just to be safe, and regularly checked the temperatures with a temp gun.
The highest temp i have clocked so far is 119.
I've tried many different temperature combinations, and last night when I checked, I thought I had it. 92 degree hot spot, 83 ambient. Too bad it didn't last. When I checked the temps this morning and found that the hot spot had returned to well over 100 degrees again, I turned off my CHE. I cannot even imagine trying to do this with my snake living in the tank. I would be a nervous wreck.
Long story short, your bulb is very likely creating a hot spot that is much too hot. Fortunately it is possible to correct this and create a perfect environment for your snake. Investing in a thermostat is a great first step, but it will take some tweaking too. In the mean time, it is much safer to keep your snake in temperatures that are too low than temperatures that are too high. Best of luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KMG

A tstat probe goes between the UTH and the tank bottom, on the outside. The thermometer probe can go wherever you want it really. Whatever you want to monitor.

The UTH should only have at most 1/4 inch of substrate over it. This keeps the UTH at a temp that will not harm your snake if the substrate is moved and laid on directly. Having a thick substrate you will need to keep the UTH at a high temperature so the heat can reach the top of the substrate.

Yes, you can use the lamp too. On my 40 gallon in a cold room I have a uth, che, and heat bulb.

I questioned your post because it did not seem as if you wanted to do things correctly and instead choose to do things half way which is not safe for your snake. You should have done a bit more research here and we could have helped you get things right the first time, saving you time and money.

I use Herpstat and love them.

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I got the hydroform thermostat, but I'm confused, you said to put the probe between the UTH and the tank bottom on the outside?? O__o On the outside of the tank? I was gonna have it between the carpet and the substrate.

Also I want to keep using the lamp, my room temp is usually in the low or mid 70's

I use a red 25 watt bulb on mine, along with the UTH of course on a t-stat, and adjust a little accordingly. My hot spot 87-90°, and the cool side 78-80°, give or take a degree or two. All my snakes have excellent sheds, but I up the humidity whenever they are going to shed :snake:

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Originally Posted by blubudgie

I got the hydroform thermostat, but I'm confused, you said to put the probe between the UTH and the tank bottom on the outside?? O__o On the outside of the tank? I was gonna have it between the carpet and the substrate.

Also I want to keep using the lamp, my room temp is usually in the low or mid 70's

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Yes - on the outside of the tank where it won't be peed on, pooped on, spilled on, moved, or something else. If you secure it between the mat and the glass (on the outside), you will have the most consistent temperature control with your thermostat.

blubudgie - I am sorry that I did not respond to your posted question... For some reason my notification about this thread got kicked to my email spam folder. The link you posted is the hydrofarm that I use.

Here's another link for you, this thermometer is a good one and good value. It has a long probe that you can secure over the UTH (put this probe inside the tank, I secure mine with hotglue, never use tape) to read the hot spot temp. You then sit the unit itself on the opposite end of the tank to read the cool side temp. It will also give you a humidity reading. A temp gun, as others have mentioned, can also come in handy... You can use it to read the temp in various parts of the tank. If you do get one of these though, I'd invest in a more expensive one... I got a slightly cheaper model and am convinced that it doesn't give accurate temps.

About the thermostat setup: As others have said, secure the UTH to the bottom of the tank and sandwich the probe to the hydrofarm between the glass and the UTH (I secure my UTH's with metal foil tape so that I can remove them later). This will keep it out of the way and give you a good reading. Something else to keep in mind.. Every time I setup a thermostat, like a hydrofarm, I have to play with it (using the reading from the accurite thermometer probe) to get to the right temp on the bottom glass of the tank. i.e. I might have to set the hydrofarm to 93f to get a temp reading of 90 according to the accurite. I would set it lower at first (90f) and see what reading that gives you.

Here is a link to the screen top foil treatment sticky. If you are going to use the lamp for ambient temps, check out this method for foiling your screen top so that more humidity stays in the tank.

I ended up using a tub setup for my BPs, as it was eaiser to keep humidity. I had to use a lamp for heat as well, but the lamp had to be raised on a lamp stand so that it would not melt the plastic. If you're interested in a tub setup, check out this sticky. It also shows UTH / probe / thermometer placement well too.

how hot does the 25 watt bulb get your tank? And what size?
I feel like leaving my 50 watt one on all day gets too hot but at the same time I need the ambient temp to be higher since my room temp is too low.

Also thanks for the info about the thermostat probe guys, but I'm still confused. If I put the probe on the UTH pad wouldn't that be measuring the temp of the pad, not the substrate? Shouldn't I be measuring the temp of the substrate? :confusd:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by artgecko

blubudgie - I am sorry that I did not respond to your posted question... For some reason my notification about this thread got kicked to my email spam folder. The link you posted is the hydrofarm that I use.

Here's another link for you, this thermometer is a good one and good value. It has a long probe that you can secure over the UTH (put this probe inside the tank, I secure mine with hotglue, never use tape) to read the hot spot temp. You then sit the unit itself on the opposite end of the tank to read the cool side temp. It will also give you a humidity reading. A temp gun, as others have mentioned, can also come in handy... You can use it to read the temp in various parts of the tank. If you do get one of these though, I'd invest in a more expensive one... I got a slightly cheaper model and am convinced that it doesn't give accurate temps.

About the thermostat setup: As others have said, secure the UTH to the bottom of the tank and sandwich the probe to the hydrofarm between the glass and the UTH (I secure my UTH's with metal foil tape so that I can remove them later). This will keep it out of the way and give you a good reading. Something else to keep in mind.. Every time I setup a thermostat, like a hydrofarm, I have to play with it (using the reading from the accurite thermometer probe) to get to the right temp on the bottom glass of the tank. i.e. I might have to set the hydrofarm to 93f to get a temp reading of 90 according to the accurite. I would set it lower at first (90f) and see what reading that gives you.

Here is a link to the screen top foil treatment sticky. If you are going to use the lamp for ambient temps, check out this method for foiling your screen top so that more humidity stays in the tank.

I ended up using a tub setup for my BPs, as it was eaiser to keep humidity. I had to use a lamp for heat as well, but the lamp had to be raised on a lamp stand so that it would not melt the plastic. If you're interested in a tub setup, check out this sticky. It also shows UTH / probe / thermometer placement well too.

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thanks! but the link to the thermometer isn't working :(
I might try the foil treatment, so far I keep a damp towel over half the screen. I'm also going to switch to cypress mulch to keep more humidity.

I also need a new humidity gauge. I got one in petco, but since it's humid, the sticky side doesn't stick to the glass and it keeps falling. My BP has also knocked it down before and gotten stuck to it so I've taken the sticky part off. I just have it laying in the tank so I'm pretty sure the readings aren't right...
Any suggestions? maybe one with a suction cup..?


ALSO the lamp I got comes with a clamp, and I want to use it but I can't figure out what people are clamping the lamp to? It doesn't come with anything to attack the clamp to the side of the tank like the picture shows. Should I just super glue a piece of wood to the side of my screen?
I currently just have the lamp laying a inch or so off the screen. I want to get it higher

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blubudgie

Also thanks for the info about the thermostat probe guys, but I'm still confused. If I put the probe on the UTH pad wouldn't that be measuring the temp of the pad, not the substrate? Shouldn't I be measuring the temp of the substrate? :confusd:

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You put the t-stat probe between the UTH and the glass, under the tank, and initially set the t-stat to 90*F. Wait an hour, then use your temp gun or IR thermometer to measure the temperature of the glass inside the tank over top of the UTH. Adjust the t-stat setting up or down, as needed, until your critter is getting belly heat at around 89-91*F.

As for the hygrometer, congratulations, you've just discovered that the analog stick-ons are a waste of money... as is most of the snake "stuff" sold by the big box stores. WalMart sells a nice little AcuRite digital thermometer/hygrometer that is inexpensive and tons better - http://www.walmart.com/ip/AcuRite-Di...nitor/16888914 - of course, it's out of stock online, probably because herpers keep buying them up!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blubudgie

If I put the probe on the UTH pad wouldn't that be measuring the temp of the pad, not the substrate?

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No. It isn't measuring the temperature of the pad - it is controlling the temperature of the pad. If there are other things that could interfere with this (urine, your snake, substrate, etc), then it can not do its job effectively. This is why the probe placement is recommended where it has been recommended.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blubudgie

Shouldn't I be measuring the temp of the substrate? :confusd:

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Yes. You should be measuring the temp of the substrate (most importantly, the surface of the glass immediately above the pad) - infrared thermometers tend to be the most efficient. From this measurement, you can choose to increase or decrease the set point of your thermostat accordingly.

Does this clarification make sense?

Many people remove the clamp and place the lamp directly on the screen. This is not a very good method as it will make you remove the lamp to get into the tank which will allow the tank to cool down and shorten the life of the bulbs by banging them around. Also this does not allow you to adjust the distance of the lamp to give you the proper flood of heat and the desired hot spot. Now you could get a dimmer but I'm not really a fan of them.

I prefer to use a lamp stand. This allows for a che or lamp to be pointed as desired and leaves the heat source in place when entering the tank so the tank does not drop in temperature.
The big box pet stores should have these for around 20 bucks. I don't know why amazon has them so high unless they have gone up in price. Its been sometime since ï have bought one.

http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Reptil...ile+lamp+stand

okay thanks. I think i'll get a lamp stand.

- - - Updated - - -

okay thanks. I think i'll get a lamp stand.

Sorry about the link... the one bcr229 posted is similar and measures humidity too.

The thermostat probe has to be right on the heat mat because it controls power to the mat. You use the probe to the thermometer (inside the tank right on the glass above the UTH to measure what temp is getting through the glass into the tank and then adjust your thermostat appropriately.

i.e. if I set the thermostat to 90f, but take a temp reading from the thermometer and it says 87f, I might want to increase the UTH thermostat reading 3 degrees to 93f, so that the temp inside the tank will rise 3 degrees to the desired temp. It can be confusing because the two words are so similar and they do different functions.

If you look at the tub tutorial link I posted, you can see how his UTH, thermostat, and thermometer are placed. The thermometer (acu-rite) he uses is a similar model to the one I recommended and measures temps and humidity. You would do the setup very similar in a glass tank (except that the UTH would be attached to the tank).

Sorry, I'm still confused...lol
So if you put the tstat probe into the substrate, why wouldn't it work the same? Doesn't the probe take the temp of whatever it is touching and adjust the tstat accordingly? Isn't that how it works; basically the tstat probe IS a thermometer.
Say I put my probe into the substrate and set my tstat to 90 degrees. So then wouldn't the probe measure the temp of the substrate until it is 90 and then "tell" the tstat to turn the heat mat off? So why does it matter whether you put the probe on the mat or in the substrate? :confusd:
I would then use my thermometer as a second check.

also Bumble shed and he's beautiful now :D
http://i60.tinypic.com/10pc0id.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blubudgie

So if you put the tstat probe into the substrate, why wouldn't it work the same?

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While you are correct that the probe of a thermostat is effectively a thermometer, it won't work the same for the reasons that Eric Alan listed above. You want your thermostat probe to measure the temperature of the UTH and the UTH alone. Here's why...

Situation 1: You put the probe of your thermostat in the substrate inside your cage to regulate the UTH (which is outside the cage). Your snake accidentally moves the thermostat probe so it's no longer resting above the UTH. Your UTH is now unregulated; the thermostat probe is reading some other area of the cage not touching the UTH. The UTH is kept running, and your snake gets burnt.

Taping your thermostat probe between the UTH and the outside bottom of your tank ensures it will always be monitoring the actual UTH temperature and nothing else.

Situation 2: You glue or otherwise adhere the thermostat probe inside the cage, in the substrate, so it cannot be moved. Your snake accidentally pees on the thermostat probe, or your snake accidentally spills water on the thermostat probe, etc. Now the probe has been compromised. It doesn't read an accurate temperature, and it thinks the entire UTH is much colder than it really is (in reality, just the probe is cold, the rest of the UTH is fine). The thermostat keeps the entire area of the UTH running too hot, and your snake gets burnt.

Taping your thermostat probe between the UTH and the outside bottom of your tank ensures it will never get wet or dirty and give you false readings.

I hope this makes sense. If you're still having trouble understanding why this is done, maybe a picture or drawing of the "recommended" arrangement of things might help you understand better?

Edit: On top of all this, you'll still have your thermometer probe inside the cage, on top of or within the substrate, telling you what temperatures your snake is experiencing on its hot spot. In other words, your thermostat will measure the "UTH temp", and your thermometer will tell you the "snake temp".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blubudgie

Sorry, I'm still confused...lol
So if you put the tstat probe into the substrate, why wouldn't it work the same? Doesn't the probe take the temp of whatever it is touching and adjust the tstat accordingly? Isn't that how it works; basically the tstat probe IS a thermometer.
Say I put my probe into the substrate and set my tstat to 90 degrees. So then wouldn't the probe measure the temp of the substrate until it is 90 and then "tell" the tstat to turn the heat mat off? So why does it matter whether you put the probe on the mat or in the substrate? :confusd:
I would then use my thermometer as a second check.

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I can't put it any more clearly than I already have:

If there are other things that could interfere with this (urine, your snake, substrate, etc), then it can not do its job effectively. This is why the probe placement is recommended where it has been recommended.

I can put it longer than I already have by using an example:

Lets say you bury the probe in the substrate and adjust the thermostat accordingly based on the temperature readings you take with your thermometer. Like you said, you take your readings and end up setting the temperature at the probe to stay at 90 degrees. In order to do this, the heat mat needs to heat up to above 90 degrees to heat 1) the glass and 2) the substrate between the pad and the probe. Glass does not conduct heat well, and neither does substrate, so it's safe to say that the temperature of the pad needed to get the probe to 90 degrees is considerably higher than 90 degrees. It is also safe to say that the temperature of the glass in contact with the pad will be higher than 90 degrees. Now, lets say your snake decides to act like a snake and explore its enclosure. While doing so, it digs down in the substrate to the nice, warm glass bottom and moves your thermostat probe out of the way while doing so. Because Murphy's Law, the probe ends up sticking into the air. Now, the recently moved probe is reading the ambient air temperature instead of the substrate temperature. This temperature will be unquestionably lower, so it will send a signal to your thermostat to increase power to the hat pad to make up for this difference. It will keep sending this signal until the probe once again reads 90 degrees. I can guarantee you that the heat pad is (thankfully) not powerful enough to raise the ambient air temperature of your enclosure to 90 degrees. Unfortunately, this also means that it will continually run on full power trying to do so. Basically, you might as well not even have a thermostat at this point, since it won't be doing anything beyond opening up the power flood gates.

Does this help paint a better picture?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Does this help paint a better picture?

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Your patience is so much better than mine...................

Ohhhh thanks guys I see now.

Forgot to update this.
Anyway I have a lamp that keeps the ambient temp on the warm side around 80-82 and 75ish on the cool side.
My UTH is hooked to a tstat that I set to 90-95 depending on how cool my house is. And a digital thermometer probe in the bedding usually reads 85-88
am I good?


and do i need to lock this thread or can i just let it die?

I affixed the UTH to the bottom of the terrarium before getting a thermostat. How can I place the probe now? Tape it to the outside of the UTH?
Not sure if I can peel back some of the UTH, it seems to be stuck on the glass very firmly.