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Double Het For What?

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  • 08-21-2014, 09:43 PM
    Slowcountry Balls
    Double Het For What?
    Well, this was supposed to be a simple pairing, het Albino het Pied x het Albino het Pied. Nothing to crazy. Was a little disappointed when I got Albinos, but no Pieds. But when I looked more closely, I saw 2 that were not normal either. Since they do not look like their normal looking parents, I am assuming that this is another recessive gene. I have contacted a very well known and respected breeder, and he agrees, that while these 2 share some characteristics with Caramel Albino and Hypo, neither gene is what they are. Both he and I are not sure what this unknown recessive gene may be. So, I am posting this, hoping that someone else might have some insight. Thanks.

    Clutch in Eggs (Unknown Recessive Animals Next to Albinos):
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file..._eggs_comp.jpg


    The Albinos:
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-17_1.jpg
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-17_4.jpg


    Partial Group Shot (2 Albinos, 2 Normal Looking, and 1 Unknown Recessive, Smaller Normal Looking Had Not Shed at Time of Picture):
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...4-08-17_15.jpg


    One of Each (Unknown Recessive is Bottom Right):
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-17_6.jpg


    Unknown Recessive (left) and Normal Looking Sibling (right):
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-17_8.jpg
  • 08-21-2014, 10:22 PM
    alan12013
    So does this mean the parents are triple hets? lol It's a subtle gene/ color mutation if that's what it is. I do like how bright it is. Where did you get the parents?
  • 08-21-2014, 11:41 PM
    J.P.
    first thing i can think of is fire/vanilla.....these can be very subtle morphs and maybe one of the parents was a vanilla or fire that went unnoticed.
    this could happen if one of the grand parents was a vanilla/fire albino, very hard to ID that one. something like this could have happened: breeder sold a fire/vanilla albino as a regular albino due to ID issue, then next breeder thinks he's breeding a regular albino to a pied, hatches out a fire/vanilla double het albino pied, thinks it as a normal DH albino pied because he's not expecting anything extra...you breed it and notice the odd balls....very complicated explanation with a lot of maybes, but it's more rational and has better odds of happening than triple hets...
  • 08-22-2014, 06:00 AM
    Slowcountry Balls
    Re: Double Het For What?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by alan12013 View Post
    So does this mean the parents are triple hets? lol It's a subtle gene/ color mutation if that's what it is. I do like how bright it is. Where did you get the parents?

    Not too sure what this means. They maybe triple hets and I just had really bad odds on the Pied stuff, or they may have been mislabeled double hets. I got them from a friend who got them in a trade. My friend had to get out of Ball Pythons because of a medical condition, and in the chaos of that transition, a lot of his records got mixed up or lost. I was hoping to prove the pair as double het Albino-Pied, but now I have another mystery on my hands.
  • 08-22-2014, 06:05 AM
    Slowcountry Balls
    Re: Double Het For What?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by J.P. View Post
    first thing i can think of is fire/vanilla.....these can be very subtle morphs and maybe one of the parents was a vanilla or fire that went unnoticed.
    this could happen if one of the grand parents was a vanilla/fire albino, very hard to ID that one. something like this could have happened: breeder sold a fire/vanilla albino as a regular albino due to ID issue, then next breeder thinks he's breeding a regular albino to a pied, hatches out a fire/vanilla double het albino pied, thinks it as a normal DH albino pied because he's not expecting anything extra...you breed it and notice the odd balls....very complicated explanation with a lot of maybes, but it's more rational and has better odds of happening than triple hets...

    I understand your theory, but if you look at my thread for locks for the 2013-2014 season (http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ry-Balls-Locks), I think you'll agree that neither parent has Fire, nor Vanilla in them. I will try posting some comparison pictures tonight, after work.
  • 08-22-2014, 08:35 AM
    PitOnTheProwl
    My first thought is OG but not sure :confusd::confusd:
  • 08-22-2014, 08:50 AM
    alan12013
    Ya same here they really look like some sort or ghost. The color of the head compared to the normal is a huge indicator.
  • 08-22-2014, 10:06 AM
    Slowcountry Balls
    Re: Double Het For What?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl View Post
    My first thought is OG but not sure :confusd::confusd:

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by alan12013 View Post
    Ya same here they really look like some sort or ghost. The color of the head compared to the normal is a huge indicator.

    I know what you guys mean. At first I thought that it was another line of Hypo, and it may be, but it is not like the Hypo I am working with. I've gotten my Hypo animals from Adam Chesla and Outback Reptiles. I've produced Hypos, Pastel Hypos, Hypos het for Pied, and Pastel Hypos het for Pied, and this looks different from all of those. The color is different, and more importantly, the boldness or intensity of the black on the body is different. I'm going to take some pictures tonight, after work, to show this.
  • 08-22-2014, 10:22 AM
    iPanda
    Unrelated, but I read your thread title in the tune of "TURN DOWN FOR WHAT!"

    ....carry on.
  • 08-22-2014, 10:39 AM
    PitOnTheProwl
    The lack of blushing is thowing me.
    have they shed out yet?
  • 08-22-2014, 10:59 AM
    Slowcountry Balls
    Re: Double Het For What?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl View Post
    The lack of blushing is thowing me.
    have they shed out yet?

    Yes. Except for the picture of them in the eggs, all the pictures I've posted are after their first shed. When I first realized that they weren't normals, I thought Caramel Albino or Ultramel, but quickly moved on from that guess because they weren't bright enough and didn't show enough orange for those two morphs. I then thought about Hypo, but had a clutch from a Pastel Hypo possible het Pied x Butter possible het Hypo hatch 1 day later to compare to (the Butter possible het Hypo proved out to be het Hypo by producing two Hypos and one Pastel Hypo). The blacks are quite different between the Hypos and this unknown recessive mutation. So, I don't think it is a line of Hypo, but I also don't know what it might be.
  • 08-22-2014, 11:32 AM
    dr del
    Re: Double Het For What?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Slowcountry Balls View Post
    Well, this was supposed to be a simple pairing, het Albino het Pied x het Albino het Pied. Nothing to crazy. Was a little disappointed when I got Albinos, but no Pieds. But when I looked more closely, I saw 2 that were not normal either. Since they do not look like their normal looking parents, I am assuming that this is another recessive gene. I have contacted a very well known and respected breeder, and he agrees, that while these 2 share some characteristics with Caramel Albino and Hypo, neither gene is what they are. Both he and I are not sure what this unknown recessive gene may be. So, I am posting this, hoping that someone else might have some insight. Thanks.

    Clutch in Eggs (Unknown Recessive Animals Next to Albinos):
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file..._eggs_comp.jpg


    The Albinos:
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-17_1.jpg
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-17_4.jpg


    Partial Group Shot (2 Albinos, 2 Normal Looking, and 1 Unknown Recessive, Smaller Normal Looking Had Not Shed at Time of Picture):
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...4-08-17_15.jpg


    One of Each (Unknown Recessive is Bottom Right):
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-17_6.jpg


    Unknown Recessive (left) and Normal Looking Sibling (right):
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-17_8.jpg

    Possibly silly question;

    Was the mother bred to a mojave last season?
  • 08-22-2014, 11:35 AM
    Slowcountry Balls
    Re: Double Het For What?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dr del View Post
    Possibly silly question;

    Was the mother bred to a mojave last season?

    No. This was her first season breeding. Both she and the sire were virgins, and they were only bred to each other.
  • 08-22-2014, 07:26 PM
    Slowcountry Balls
    As promised, some comparison pictures

    Hypo (from a Pastel Hypo possible het Pied to a Butter possible Hypo) on the left and the unknown recessive on the right:
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-22_1.jpg
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-22_2.jpg
    As you can see, the blacks are different, along with base colors.


    For these two, I have the Hypo on top and the Pastel Hypo on the right (both from the Pastel Hypo possible het Pied to a Butter possible Hypo) and the unknown recessive on the left and a normal looking sibling to the unknown recessive on the bottom:
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-22_1.jpg
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-22_2.jpg
  • 08-24-2014, 09:12 AM
    OhhWatALoser
    I have seen snakes labeled hypos, sold at shows, that I looked like that.
  • 08-24-2014, 10:00 AM
    Brandon Osborne
    The Hypo gene is a gray area between normal and amelanistic. They can be variable between different clutches due to color differences of the adults. There is also another line of Hypo that is incompatible with the typical Hypo line most people have. A good friend of mine found this out the hard way. To me they look like hypos. Even the Albinos look washed out and pale.....could be Hybinos. Interesting to say the least.
  • 08-24-2014, 06:50 PM
    Slowcountry Balls
    Re: Double Het For What?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser View Post
    I have seen snakes labeled hypos, sold at shows, that I looked like that.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne View Post
    The Hypo gene is a gray area between normal and amelanistic. They can be variable between different clutches due to color differences of the adults. There is also another line of Hypo that is incompatible with the typical Hypo line most people have. A good friend of mine found this out the hard way. To me they look like hypos. Even the Albinos look washed out and pale.....could be Hybinos. Interesting to say the least.

    Thanks guys for the input. I know that there are a couple of lines of Hypo out there, and that there is some variability between them. I am still trying to learn as much as I can about the different lines of Hypo. This may very well be a different line of Hypo than any I have seen in person. I believe that all my other Hypos are from the Orange Ghost line of Hypo, and those are the only ones that I had available for a side by side comparison. Also, this is the only Albino clutch I have ever worked with, so I don't have any other Albinos to compare to for checking the Hybino possibility. The reasons that I didn't think it was a line of Hypo was that the black seemed too bold for Hypo and that the base color was more orange like than the Hypos that I believe are Orange Ghosts. While I have seen other lines of Hypo in person (Green Ghost, Butterscotch Ghost, and Tim Lane's $7 Ghost to name a few), all of the lines of Hypos that I have seen have that reduced/washed out black. Both of the snakes that look like this are female, so it will take some time before I can test compatibility with my other Hypo animals, which I will do. I'll also work some of the Blue Eyed Leucistic complex into it (Mojave and Mystic) to see if it produces any combinations that are similar to existing Hypo combinations. I am not jumping to any conclusions, and am obviously going to repeat this pairing in the fall. I appreciate all the suggestions, and would love for anyone to post pictures of Hypos that they think these animals are similar to.
  • 08-25-2014, 12:00 AM
    RandyRemington
    What do desert ghosts look like at that age?

    I'm pretty uneducated on that morph but do seem to remember they start out subtle and really start looking nice later.
  • 08-25-2014, 08:18 AM
    Slowcountry Balls
    Re: Double Het For What?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RandyRemington View Post
    What do desert ghosts look like at that age?

    I'm pretty uneducated on that morph but do seem to remember they start out subtle and really start looking nice later.

    Today, I sent an email to a breeder that works a lot with Desert Ghost, so I may have another experienced opinion on that soon. The original, well respected breeder that I contacted has experience working with Caramel Albino, Ultramel, Hypo, and Desert Ghost, and he didn't think this was any of those genes. He said that it had similarities to Caramel Albino and Hypo, but had some differences. That's why I posted here, to get more eyes to look at them, and to see if others had already seen this or not.
  • 08-25-2014, 07:40 PM
    Slowcountry Balls
    I heard back from the breeder with lots of Desert Ghost experience, and she does not think that these are Desert Ghosts. I will be paying attention to the sheds to see if they are clear like the other Hypos (I kept the whole clutch together for their first shed, so I was not able to tell which shed belongs to the 2 unknown). Thanks so far for all the input.
  • 08-30-2014, 11:08 AM
    Slowcountry Balls
    Here is a recent picture of the parents of this clutch. The sire is on the left and the dam is on the right.
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-27_4.jpg


    Since there have been questions about Fire, I took a picture with an adult male Fire. The sire is front left, the dam is front right, and the adult male Fire is in the back:
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-27_3.jpg
    I don't think that either parent looks like a Fire.

    I also took a picture of one of the unknown recessive hatchlings next to a 2013 Fire that I produced. Keep in mind that Fires get lighter as they age, and this 2013 Fire has had a full year of growing and shedding to get to the point where he is in this picture, while the 2014 unknown recessive has only just had her first shed. 2013 male Fire on left, 2014 female unknown recessive on right.
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-22_1.jpg
    I think that while subtle, there are enough differences to say that this is not a Fire, especially since the parents do not look like Fires.

    Here is a collage of the 9 surviving hatchlings:
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...2014-08-27.jpg
    Top row are 3 females all 66% het for both Albino and whatever gene this is,
    Middle row is 2 females unknown 66% het Albino and a female Albion 66% het unknown
    Bottom row is 1 male Albion 66% het unknown and 2 males 66% het for both Albino and whatever gene this is
    This clutch started off with 11 eggs, and 1 egg had twins, but I lost 3 of the hatchlings due to a twisted umbilical chord, a large mass in 1 egg, and 1 twin was dead when I cut the clutch open. I started another thread on large masses in eggs killing hatchlings to see if anyone else has experienced this too (http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-Causing-Death).

    Still open to any suggestions, and will be watching the 2 female hatchlings in question closely, especially looking at their sheds to see if they are clear (indicating Hypo).
  • 11-15-2014, 08:32 PM
    JMinILM
    Re: Double Het For What?
    Interesting. How do they look now after several sheds?
  • 11-17-2014, 12:38 PM
    Slowcountry Balls
    So, after a few sheds, they are not Hypos (sheds have black markings). My best guess is that they are a dark line of Caramel Albino. I will try to take some new pictures this weekend.
  • 11-18-2014, 09:04 AM
    RandyRemington
    Any kinking? Not a sure thing with caramels but if seen would be a factor in favor of them being caramels.
  • 11-21-2014, 12:24 AM
    Slowcountry Balls
    Re: Double Het For What?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RandyRemington View Post
    Any kinking? Not a sure thing with caramels but if seen would be a factor in favor of them being caramels.

    No kinking observed. Both look real good.

    Here are the updated photos:

    The unknown recessive is on the far left. I think it is a dark line of Caramel Albino. The Albino is on top, the 66% possible double het is on the right, and a Hypo from another clutch is on the bottom:
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...014-11-_20.jpg

    Here is a picture of just the 3 sibliings:
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-11-20_1.jpg
    Unknown recessiv (probably dark Caramel Albino) on the left, Albino in the middle, and 66% possible double het on the right.
  • 11-21-2014, 11:22 PM
    Bagel&CreamCheese
    could it be possible that the albino is actually a sunglow?
  • 11-22-2014, 10:21 PM
    stoaob3
    Re: Double Het For What?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne View Post
    The Hypo gene is a gray area between normal and amelanistic. They can be variable between different clutches due to color differences of the adults. There is also another line of Hypo that is incompatible with the typical Hypo line most people have. A good friend of mine found this out the hard way. To me they look like hypos. Even the Albinos look washed out and pale.....could be Hybinos. Interesting to say the least.

    I agree with the albinos looking hypo also
  • 11-24-2014, 02:29 AM
    Karokash
    Learning a ton from this thread so I look forward to the updates on any finds.

    Still laughing at reading the thread title to the beat of "Turn it Down for What"
  • 11-24-2014, 01:26 PM
    Slowcountry Balls
    Re: Double Het For What?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bagel&CreamCheese View Post
    could it be possible that the albino is actually a sunglow?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by stoaob3 View Post
    I agree with the albinos looking hypo also

    Since the unknown recessive has black markings in their sheds, I really don't think they are Hypo, so I doubt that the Albinos are actually Sunglows. At the November Repticon on Columbia, SC, I was able to compare the unknown recessives to a known Caramel Albino. The unkown recessive was darker that the Caramel Albino that I compared her to, but could possibly be a dark line of Caramel Albino.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Karokash View Post
    Learning a ton from this thread so I look forward to the updates on any finds.

    Still laughing at reading the thread title to the beat of "Turn it Down for What"

    Glad you are finding this thread helpful.
  • 11-25-2014, 04:01 AM
    Karokash
    Re: Double Het For What?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Slowcountry Balls View Post

    Glad you are finding this thread helpful.

    Oh very. I mean i'm still completely green to the world of breeding so a good deal of it is going over my head. But as I learn more I'm going to revisit the thread often as I want to learn as much as I can about genetics and the process so I can eventually breed one day myself.
  • 01-26-2015, 09:06 PM
    Redlude92
    So there is no chance that the albino you sold me is het pied?
    Is it possible that it is het caramel?
  • 01-26-2015, 10:03 PM
    Slowcountry Balls
    Re: Double Het For What?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Redlude92 View Post
    So there is no chance that the albino you sold me is het pied?
    Is it possible that it is het caramel?

    I don't know. I acquired them as double het for Pied and Albino. They produced Albinos and what I think are Caramel Albinos. With 12 babies, it is possible that I had bad luck and that is why there are no Pieds, or the person I got them from may have made a mistake in labeling them. He was a friend who was having medical problems, so that is a possibility. I will know more about whether or not the parents are het for Pied after this season.

    Yes, there is a 66% chance that the female Albino that you bought from me is het for what I think is Caramel Albino. I will keep you posted as the season goes on.
  • 02-12-2015, 10:39 PM
    Slowcountry Balls
    So I grabbed a picture of my recessive that I think is a really dark line of Caramel Albino next to 2 different vendor's known Caramel Albinos at last weekend's Columbia Repticon. Let me know what you think.

    Mine is on the left in this picture:
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...2015-02-08.jpg

    Mine is in the middle in this picture:
    http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...2015-02-08.jpg
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