Suddenly A Homosexual Male Snake??

Ok, I have 3 male BPs that I've had since 1998. They were all adults when I got them, but one I acquired through a friend and he was at least 5 yrs old when I got him so that puts him around 20+ yrs old. The other 2 came from pet shop as young adults. These 3 male snakes have lived together since 1998 without any breeding. There are no females period.

Last weekend, I noticed some hard thumping noises going on in their cage. They are all kept in a large boaphileplastics enclosure. This kept occurring throughout the day, so I started observing. I saw my smallest male pushing off my oldest male. Later I noticed that they were both restless (as they are usually sleeping in their hides during the day). Well this went on. The next day I observed closer. More of the same. The small snake was agitated. Yet, the old snake seemed to follow him around without rest. He nudged him, encircled him, round and round, nudging him. The small snake would shove him off (thus the thumping noise each time). Then I see my small male snake bite my old guy! Not strike at him, but turn around, open his mouth and bite down on the other snake's "torso" and chunk bite him. At this point, I realized I had to separate them because someone was going to get hurt.

I put the old snake in a portable cage I have for traveling. He calms down and goes into his hide. My smaller snake finally gets a break and slithers into his hide. He rests up for 2 days without coming out (presumably from exhaustion). Now, this small snake hasn't eaten since Jan. (I am pretty sure that this behavior just started and hasn't been going on beyond the few days I'm discussing.) This is not terribly unusual as sometimes these snakes go on a hunger strike. I feed him, and finally he eats fine. The old snake refuses to eat. I wait until the day after the little snake eats and tried reintroduction of my old snake into his usual enclosure minus the little snake. Left him there for several hours. He is restless and going around in circles all over the cage without rest. Introduce the little snake. Same behavior. I have to separate. Now through all this, my 3rd snake (also male) is oblivious and totally unaffected sleeping in his hide, coming out for water, same normal routine.

I'm thinking this little snake is emitting some kind of scent that the old snake is confusing but what ever scent it is, the other male snake is unaffected. These snakes have been together for 16 yrs and now this suddenly happens?? I'm also thinking: is it possible that my old snake ( he might be older then 20) is now getting senile? I know that homosexual behavior occurs in the animal kingdom but these snakes have lived together without this going on for 16 yrs.....Also, the little snake is definitely not being submissive or receptive so there can be confusion going on about that.

Any advise? Any insights? I realize that ultimately I may need to permanently separate them so I don't need that advise, I'm aware. But would appreciate any thoughts at this point.

Dominance display. Remove them asap. I would be worried about cannibalism if they're becoming that violent.

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Marriage counseling?

Not sure where you get the behavior being sexual. I'd defiantly separate them for good, before one of them does some real damage.


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The older snake just circles and rubs the smaller snake. Allowing the small snake to shove him off and even allowing the biting. Little snake is irritated and nervous when this snake is around. Also, how do you see the fact that the older snake is acting that way just being in the enclosure where the little snake was (after I removed him)? I don't know that it is sexual. I just saw some snake sexual vids and it looked similar. Also, these guys have been together for 16 yrs and now there's aggression? What about no aggression with the 3rd male snake?

BPs are solitary creatures. They don't like each other's company.

Separate them all permanently and you will have no worries.

You added a new snake. It's like when you add any other animal be it horse, rat, dog, whatever. The herd hierarchy has to be established. Honestly I think you should separate all three snakes. Keeping ball pythons together is never recommended. They are solitary creatures that only get together to breed. That encircling behavior is him trying to dominate the other one. I've got eight snakes and they all have their own tubs or enclosures. If it's a big tank you can put dividers in it to keep them separate. Tubs are also a cheaper and spacing saving option than three tanks.

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Originally Posted by Marrissa

You added a new snake. It's like when you add any other animal be it horse, rat, dog, whatever. The herd hierarchy has to be established. Honestly I think you should separate all three snakes. Keeping ball pythons together is never recommended. They are solitary creatures that only get together to breed. That encircling behavior is him trying to dominate the other one. I've got eight snakes and they all have their own tubs or enclosures. If it's a big tank you can put dividers in it to keep them separate. Tubs are also a cheaper and spacing saving option than three tanks.

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From the OP's original post..."These 3 male snakes have lived together since 1998 without any breeding."

I still agree with you that they should be separated though...:)

Ah someone read the acquired from friend line as he just added the third. I need to go to sleep.

Edit: somehow not someone* Ok I'm going to bed.

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Originally Posted by Marrissa

Ah someone read the acquired from friend line as he just added the third. I need to go to sleep.

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Me too...:sleepy:

I'm surprised it has taken so long for them to become like this... makes me wonder if you've been missing some signs. Or perhaps not, and it has just started but good for you for removing them. Time to keep them apart, as they probably should be - like most other snakes.

Regardless of their sexual orientation ;) it is clear someone(s) isn't happy and is showing it very clearly.

All the best!

(And hey, with that tub idea suggested before, you have more room for more snakes... so...)

when one snake decides to drive another snake out of its territory, the harassment will not stop. in nature they would go seperate ways, but they are in the same enclosure. so instead, they will stress each other out, and that constant high stress level is bad for the health.

i wonder how it worked so well for so many years, thats quite amazing and unusual i think. especially with two males. but when they start fighting you have to seperate them, there is no other way. the dominant snake will not understand that the other snake it is trying to drive away cannot leave, it will think that its not effective enough and will try to ramp up the agression. once such patterns of behavior kick in, if you dont seperate them they might fight and drive each other insane each day every day for a really long time, far beyond the point where in nature, the weaker snake would leave and settle somewhere else.

That's it, you see. I don't see the older snake fighting at all. He doesn't raise his head. He rubs on the smaller snake and gently will nudge him here and there. He doesn't try to grab a hold of him to constrict or bite. Not even when he was bitten by the small snake did he try to fight (and he is the bigger snake). The smaller snake doesn't like it. That is pretty obvious. The little snake is aggressively trying to stop the behavior but while they were together, he couldn't get away from it.

Looking at several mating vids, and even an alleged male on male mating vid still makes me think its sex for the old guy, not territorial. Again, why is this snake being territorial only to the small snake while the 3rd male snake in the cage is left alone? Why still restless in that cage after the little snake is removed? Yet no efforts to move against the 3rd male snake. I've read that larger snakes can attempt to mate with smaller male snakes and, in the wild, a smaller male snake may allow it for self preservation.

Anyway, trying to figure out snake psychology. I just find this extremely odd that its starting now after 16 yrs. And no, I didn't miss this behavior for 16 yrs. I'm pretty observant and take care of my snakes.

Males will lock with males out of dominance. It's not sexual behavior, it's dominance behavior. You've got everyone on this thread giving you the obvious answer of separate them. They are competing for the same territory. That nudging is his mild way of trying to get the smaller snake to go away. They can't talk and they don't have much other way then using their body to push the other or bite to show thy aren't happy about the other one being there.

People can make guesses all they want as to behavioral cause but what it comes down to is you need to separate the snakes.

I'm going to have to join the chorus here and agree that you must separate them, all of them. Whether it's one snake hitting on the other, aggression or he's senile, separation is the absolute best solution. Things don't remain constant forever so count your blessings that they got along for so long but that kinship seems to be over. Why allow your smaller snake to get harassed?

On a side note, I think it's beautiful that you have 15+ year old snakes. I have 3 myself and can't wait till they get older. Any chance you'll show us a pic of them and their enclosure?

Good luck..

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Originally Posted by BPBeth

Any advise? Any insights? I realize that ultimately I may need to permanently separate them so I don't need that advise, I'm aware. But would appreciate any thoughts at this point.

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I made it pretty clear in my original post that I had separated the snakes. And here (quote above) I make it pretty clear that I understood that the separation could well be permanent and that I wasn't really here looking for that pat response from fellow posters. Rather I was looking for some insights into the behavior itself and the paradoxes I described given how long they've been together. (I wasn't looking for low communication skill lectures about separating my snakes). I've been taking care of these guys for 16 yrs and I think I can realize what their needs are and when their needs change, and when their care needs to be modified, even if I don't know everything about why they do the things they do. I came here looking for insights and maybe someone who may have exp with same sex attempts at copulation.

BTW, the snakes haven't locked whatsoever.

Thanks for the input about dominance behavior.

Signs of dominance can range from very subtle things like one in top of the other in a hide to extreme of what you described and worse. Most things we think are cute like one may be drinking and another comes up and lays in the water bowl or stealing food if fed together. What you described would be more towards the extreme end of dominance.

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Thanks Tarz: Here is the enclosure. You can see the little snake in question telling me he wants to get out for awhile. The enclosure is a boaphile made of pvc. It has upstairs and downstairs compartments.
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...th/Pythons.png

Here is a face up of my bad old guy who is now in solidary confinement.
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...eth/nukem2.jpg

And the 3 blissfully brothers.
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k.../Thebabies.jpg

I'm thinking of switching from using towel "substrate" to something else. White newspaper sounds the best, but costly. Any comments on substrate? I'm not going to use spreadable aspen or cypress type bedding. That stuff is never clean unless you change it ever time the snake pees.

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Originally Posted by BPBeth

Rather I was looking for some insights into the behavior itself and the paradoxes I described given how long they've been together.

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You need a visit from the Snake Whisperer!

Its amazing how little info, except rather generic basic info, there is on the internet about snakes. Its a significant pet/hobby yet not too much aside from basic (and often opinionated) husbandry and basic care and breeding.

I didn't want to offend anyone by my comments above, but I was just looking for some real info, not separate snakes advise (which I had already done). Thanks!

To beat a dead horse with this: it probably is a dominance/territory scenario. As an example I will use dogs. Male dogs will hump other male dogs to claim dominance over another, not to get their jollies off. I have also seen female dogs hump male dogs which I do not fully understand why. I assume it is a type of dominance or possibly a way of telling the male she is not interested. Which seems feasible as we were trying to breed our female dalmatian but she didn't give in to the males we paired her with. She humped their heads or growled/barked/ran from them.

Along similar lines: the older male is getting up in years and perhaps needs to reestablish dominance over the territory. Previously it may have been understood the older one was the dominant one, but now feels he needs to do so again.

An out-of-the-box-theory: Perhaps one of the snakes has an illness and the older one is either infected and going nutty or the younger one is infected while the older senses it and is attempting to push the younger away to save the other 2.

In general: The middle one is staying out of the "fight" because he isn't involved and it isn't his fight, IMO.

As much as we know or think we know, how many people keep 3 BPs together in the same enclosure for as long as you have? So there may not be a lot of knowledge out there for this particular topic.

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Originally Posted by sho220

Marriage counseling?

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HA!

Made my day. :D

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Originally Posted by Pyrate81

As much as we know or think we know, how many people keep 3 BPs together in the same enclosure for as long as you have? So there may not be a lot of knowledge out there for this particular topic.

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Agree I probably don't have much company with having kept 3 males together for 16 yrs without previous problems. But I was looking up dominance in snakes and also the homosexual thing on the internet, and that is what I was referring to with lack of info. If its dominance, then the old guy is doing a poor job of it. The little snake got in his punches (including bites and shoves) while the "dominate" snake just took it and kept rubbing him. Hmmm.

http://youtu.be/QJ9r4gM20ME

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

http://youtu.be/QJ9r4gM20ME

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lol...even has bits of snake handling footage...:gj:

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

http://youtu.be/QJ9r4gM20ME

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That literally made my night. I applaud you.