Cleaning/Substrate dilemma.. Opinions please?

Maybe it's my OCD or something but I'm stuck..

I use newspaper or paper towel in all my tubs because I like to clean them out once a week - disinfecting and the works, then lay down fresh paper.. But I'd like to switch to cypress or reptibark and obviously (because of $$$) I can't buy a new bag every week for my routine cleaning spree...

So.. Im trying to compromise... Can I still do my weekly disinfecting and then return the same substrate (spot cleaned of course) or is that just ridiculous?

For those of you who use cypress or reptibark, how often do you replace it?

I've tried using aspen and replacing that every week but I hate the stuff, won't even use it for my rats...

Tell me - what are your cleaning routines?

I use coconut husk bedding and I love it. It is great for spot cleaning as it absorbs liquids well as controls odors, does not get moldy either. It is also great for maintaining proper humidity. I also like the natural look it adds to the terrarium its also pretty inexpensive

http://www.amazon.com/Kritters-Crumble-Natural-Coconut-Substrate/dp/B004A8ZQCU/ref=sr_1_4?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1396975832&sr=1-4&keywords=coconut+husk+bedding

Now I just got my ball python about a month ago but this is the cleaning routine I use for my sulcata tortoise who uses reptibark bedding but will I use this method for the python as well. I check the bedding daily when I change the water, look for any dirty spots and remove the surrounding bedding. Then weekly I remove the bedding and place it in a bag, disinfect the terrarium and put the substrate back in. I replace the substrate every month or so. Hope this helps!:oops:

I do a complete scrubdown (not just spraying with cleaner and changing the substrate) once a month, weather allowing. We have a hot water hose outside but if it's too cold, I can't really go out there and there's nowhere else inside to do it. I've transitioned solely to newspaper for all my BPs (my sand boa has ground walnut shells) but when I had them on reptibark (which I much prefer, but is of course more expensive) I would only spot-clean. When I scrubbed down their tub, I just threw away the substrate. For me, it seems silly to put dirty substrate (because it is dirty. Spotcleaning the poop or urates doesn't remove the stuff that's been peed on) back into a fresh, clean tub.

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Originally Posted by Twitchy

I use coconut husk bedding and I love it. It is great for spot cleaning as it absorbs liquids well as controls odors, does not get moldy either. It is also great for maintaining proper humidity. I also like the natural look it adds to the terrarium its also pretty inexpensive

http://www.amazon.com/Kritters-Crumble-Natural-Coconut-Substrate/dp/B004A8ZQCU/ref=sr_1_4?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1396975832&sr=1-4&keywords=coconut+husk+bedding

Now I just got my ball python about a month ago but this is the cleaning routine I use for my sulcata tortoise who uses reptibark bedding but will I use this method for the python as well. I check the bedding daily when I change the water, look for any dirty spots and remove the surrounding bedding. Then weekly I remove the bedding and place it in a bag, disinfect the terrarium and put the substrate back in. I replace the substrate every month or so. Hope this helps!:oops:

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i just bought this.. i'm on aspen and i don't like it one bit, and was debating on eco earth but read that it can get stuck between scales or in the mouth once in a while. THANK YOU for your recommendation :)

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Originally Posted by Inarikins

I do a complete scrubdown (not just spraying with cleaner and changing the substrate) once a month, weather allowing. We have a hot water hose outside but if it's too cold, I can't really go out there and there's nowhere else inside to do it. I've transitioned solely to newspaper for all my BPs (my sand boa has ground walnut shells) but when I had them on reptibark (which I much prefer, but is of course more expensive) I would only spot-clean. When I scrubbed down their tub, I just threw away the substrate. For me, it seems silly to put dirty substrate (because it is dirty. Spotcleaning the poop or urates doesn't remove the stuff that's been peed on) back into a fresh, clean tub.

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Do you feed inside the enclosure or do you use a feeding tub? I know opinions vary, but I do not remove my girl from her home to feed her. I was just curious about feeding on this substrate and the chance for ingestion while feeding. Is it pretty safe for a BP!

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Originally Posted by Morris Reese

Do you feed inside the enclosure or do you use a feeding tub? I know opinions vary, but I do not remove my girl from her home to feed her. I was just curious about feeding on this substrate and the chance for ingestion while feeding. Is it pretty safe for a BP!

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I feed in enclosure! I also don't really worry about them ingesting substrate unless it's that ends up making them so they can't close their mouth properly or there's a lot of substrate. Because I always dried my rats really well after thawing them, it was never an issue with substrate sticking so they rarely if ever actually ingested any. Now that they're on paper, I just squeeze the water off of them with my hand and offer - my snakes that are eating right now don't care if the rat is actually wet or dry.

Most people use news paper to save money. But news paper ink can be toxic and stain the skin on your snakes. I've seen beautiful snakes start looking dull after shed due to newspapers. Have you ever read a newspaper for like 15-20 minutes? Look at your hands after. That black ink stains your hands. Paper towel is good but can be pricy and doesn't hold up on humidity unless you lightly spray towels from time to time. Reptile bark or Cypress mulch is great but pricy. And it holds up on humidity. Aspen bedding gets moldy too fast when spills occur and substrate dampens. I've personally decided to go another route. I purchased a 60.6 L giant bag of "Planet Petco Aspen soft wood shavings" (oil free!!) for $14.99. It's natural and smells really good. Snakes love to hide and burrow in it. Most importantly, it absorbs fecal matter and urine for easy spot cleaning. My tubs are always fresh and clean. And my snakes are happy and love it. I had purchased the substrate last month and still have about 80% of a bag left. I spot check everyday, scoop out soiled areas when necessary, and then add a handful more in the tub. And once a month I completely change out all the substrate and disinfect my tubs. Snakes are healthy and it saves you time and money on always changing substrate and cleaning tanks constantly. In addition, I soak all my snakes twice a month in shed ease to help sooth and moisturize skin. So far I've never had a shedding problem. All snakes have had healthy full sheds. No retained eye caps or any other problems for that matter.

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Originally Posted by ChrisC

Most people use news paper to save money. But news paper ink can be toxic and stain the skin on your snakes. I've seen beautiful snakes start looking dull after shed due to newspapers. Have you ever read a newspaper for like 15-20 minutes? Look at your hands after. That black ink stains your hands. Paper towel is good but can be pricy and doesn't hold up on humidity unless you lightly spray towels from time to time. Reptile bark or Cypress mulch is great but pricy. And it holds up on humidity. Aspen bedding gets moldy too fast when spills occur and substrate dampens. I've personally decided to go another route. I purchased a 60.6 L giant bag of "Planet Petco Aspen soft wood shavings" (oil free!!) for $14.99. It's natural and smells really good. Snakes love to hide and burrow in it. Most importantly, it absorbs fecal matter and urine for easy spot cleaning. My tubs are always fresh and clean. And my snakes are happy and love it. I had purchased the substrate last month and still have about 80% of a bag left. I spot check everyday, scoop out soiled areas when necessary, and then add a handful more in the tub. And once a month I completely change out all the substrate and disinfect my tubs. Snakes are healthy and it saves you time and money on always changing substrate and cleaning tanks constantly. In addition, I soak all my snakes twice a month in shed ease to help sooth and moisturize skin. So far I've never had a shedding problem. All snakes have had healthy full sheds. No retained eye caps or any other problems for that matter.

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How long have you been using this bedding? I looked it up because it sounded like an awesome deal on some good bedding but when I read the product details it said it contains Pine, which can be toxic to snakes. Here's a snapshot of the bedding and description straight from the site.

http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/a...psi9f4d9h2.png

And a snapshot of info about substrate directly from the care sheet thread on this site.

http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/a...psp6gbiws7.png




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Thanks for the info. I am truly aware of pine being toxic to snakes. Petco offers the wood with or with out pine. My bag says on the label all natural and guaranteed oil free. The bag I have has no oils or pine in it. I made sure 100%. All is well with the substrate and my snakes. Thanks for the heads up. Also, if there was pine in my bag that's a law suit. Because the bag indicates oil free no pine. But yea lol it's 100% natural oil free.

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Originally Posted by ChrisC

Thanks for the info. I am truly aware of pine being toxic to snakes. Petco offers the wood with or with out pine. My bag says on the label all natural and guaranteed oil free. The bag I have has no oils or pine in it. I made sure 100%. All is well with the substrate and my snakes. Thanks for the heads up. Also, if there was pine in my bag that's a law suit. Because the bag indicates oil free no pine. But yea lol it's 100% natural oil free.

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Okay awesome that's great! :) just wanted to look out for you. I didn't know they could make it without the pine but that's great that they do :) might have to try some pine free then lol.


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Thank you. I really appreciate the heads up. And yes you should definitely try it.

Pine is toxic to snakes?

How long does it take to kill them? I've been using it for decades....for the love of God, what have I done?

Please let me know ASAP. I need some people who are experienced keepers who have lost snakes to pine or who are battling chronic pine bedding related illnesses to let me know how long my babies have to live.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Pine is toxic to snakes?

How long does it take to kill them? I've been using it for decades....for the love of God, what have I done?

Please let me know ASAP. I need some people who are experienced keepers who have lost snakes to pine or who are battling chronic pine bedding related illnesses to let me know how long my babies have to live.

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I have no idea 100%. I'm actually looking up that info now because I'd like to know if snakes have actually died or had health issues from pine bedding but I thought I would just let the guy know just incase. To be on the safe side. But if you've been using it for decades and your snakes haven't kicked the bucket then this may be one of those myths to be squashed. :confuzed:


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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Pine is toxic to snakes?

How long does it take to kill them? I've been using it for decades....for the love of God, what have I done?

Please let me know ASAP. I need some people who are experienced keepers who have lost snakes to pine or who are battling chronic pine bedding related illnesses to let me know how long my babies have to live.

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As we all know, reptiles retain moisture through their skin. Which means, if exposed to pine, there is a possibility that it can be absorbed by your reptile. And possibly lead to illness sources say. I have never housed my reptiles on pine bedding and have never needed medical attention for my reptile due to pine bedding. Thank god. But, sources do say that Pine can be toxic towards reptiles. I am no Veterinarian, but I will assume that Reptiles have to be exposed to extremely large amounts to get sick. I might be wrong but it's just my opinion. However, I would never dare try for the safety of my pets which I love very much. And I do not know how long it will take for pine to cause illness within a reptile.

Fascinating.

Did those sources say that? What sources are these? Other people who have never used pine?

What of these sources say about soaking snakes prior to shedding?

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Fascinating.

Did those sources say that? What sources are these? Other people who have never used pine?

What of these sources say about soaking snakes prior to shedding?

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Ive been reading a lot of back/forth info about it. Read some threads on some other forums about this topic and its like a live vs. f/t debate. Some say the pine is harmful and others have said that they have been housing their snakes on pine for years without any adverse affects. And since there are no scientific articles that actually can prove this I'm not 100% sure but not going to risk it. But the reason most say its toxic is the same reason it "can" be toxic to mammals, the aromatic hydrocarbons (phenols) that give pine/cedar its pleasant woody scent, these compounds when inhaled by reptiles and mammals can cause respiratory infections/respiratory inflammation and sometimes liver problems.

Nice : ) I wouldn't risk it either


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Originally Posted by AlexisFitzy

Ive been reading a lot of back/forth info about it. Read some threads on some other forums about this topic and its like a live vs. f/t debate. Some say the pine is harmful and others have said that they have been housing their snakes on pine for years without any adverse affects. And since there are no scientific articles that actually can prove this I'm not 100% sure but not going to risk it. But the reason most say its toxic is the same reason it "can" be toxic to mammals, the aromatic hydrocarbons (phenols) that give pine/cedar its pleasant woody scent, these compounds when inhaled by reptiles and mammals can cause respiratory infections/respiratory inflammation and sometimes liver problems.

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http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/09/aqepubev.jpg

This is the bag I mentioned. Just a heads up.


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Originally Posted by ChrisC

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/09/aqepubev.jpg

This is the bag I mentioned. Just a heads up.


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I think maybe the baked/dried this bedding to get all the oils out and keep it from being dusty since that's what is so harmful.


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Originally Posted by AlexisFitzy

I think maybe the baked/dried this bedding to get all the oils out and keep it from being dusty since that's what is so harmful.


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Maybe. But it's a really good substrate. I will be using this for long term and you get a good bang for your bucks.



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Originally Posted by AlexisFitzy

Ive been reading a lot of back/forth info about it. Read some threads on some other forums about this topic and its like a live vs. f/t debate. Some say the pine is harmful and others have said that they have been housing their snakes on pine for years without any adverse affects. And since there are no scientific articles that actually can prove this I'm not 100% sure but not going to risk it. But the reason most say its toxic is the same reason it "can" be toxic to mammals, the aromatic hydrocarbons (phenols) that give pine/cedar its pleasant woody scent, these compounds when inhaled by reptiles and mammals can cause respiratory infections/respiratory inflammation and sometimes liver problems.

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You know that many people use pine with their rodents without ill effect - including some of the mods? You know that some of the biggest most successful breeders in the world us it also? Those treatises warning against the purported health risks of pine are not peer reviewed literature but the rantings and beliefs of another forum frau making an amusing attempt to interpret some fairly complex scientific and medical data - data that did not draw the same conclusions as she.

The same debates are held on tortoise forums regarding diet. Some forum warrior did a breakdown of the phyto-chemical components of commonly fed tortoise greens and has started a wide spread belief that perfectly harmless food is harmful. Food that the animals actually eat in large quantities in the wild.

I have been waiting for years for one person to come forward with verifiable proof that pine (we are not talking about cedar) has caused harm to their reptiles, let alone rodents. I've got some really old animals on pine.

Nothing. All forum hookum. All forum rumors.

Now Chris, what if we could show that soaking your snake before it sheds is detrimental on several fronts? We'd then have you - in one thread - advocating a detrimental practice while warning against a harmless one.

Now there is nothing wrong with that - unless someone takes your advice and regularly soaks their snakes and has a problem. Words have weight, and advice is not a thing to be given lightly or without the experience to back it up.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

You know that many people use pine with their rodents without ill effect - including some of the mods? You know that some of the biggest most successful breeders in the world us it also? Those treatises warning against the purported health risks of pine are not peer reviewed literature but the rantings and beliefs of another forum frau making an amusing attempt to interpret some fairly complex scientific and medical data - data that did not draw the same conclusions as she.

The same debates are held on tortoise forums regarding diet. Some forum warrior did a breakdown of the phyto-chemical components of commonly fed tortoise greens and has started a wide spread belief that perfectly harmless food is harmful. Food that the animals actually eat in large quantities in the wild.

I have been waiting for years for one person to come forward with verifiable proof that pine (we are not talking about cedar) has caused harm to their reptiles, let alone rodents. I've got some really old animals on pine.

Nothing. All forum hookum. All forum rumors.

Now Chris, what if we could show that soaking your snake before it sheds is detrimental on several fronts? We'd then have you - in one thread - advocating a detrimental practice while warning against a harmless one.

Now there is nothing wrong with that - unless someone takes your advice and regularly soaks their snakes and has a problem. Words have weight, and advice is not a thing to be given lightly or without the experience to back it up.

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I have always heard the warnings against pine as well. I am getting ready to build a custom enclosure for my BP. I have read over and over NOT TO USE PINE. With most pine lumber that has a little age, not just fresh cut, does not have much of a smell to it. If I build an enclosure, stain it, give it a week or so to cure, add heating and light to the inside and let it sit for a couple more days, my snake should be fine, right!

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Originally Posted by Morris Reese

I have always heard the warnings against pine as well. I am getting ready to build a custom enclosure for my BP. I have read over and over NOT TO USE PINE. With most pine lumber that has a little age, not just fresh cut, does not have much of a smell to it. If I build an enclosure, stain it, give it a week or so to cure, add heating and light to the inside and let it sit for a couple more days, my snake should be fine, right!

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You snake will be fine. The stain poses a greater risk to your animals.


http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...at+pine+debate

your welcome! glad to help

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

You know that many people use pine with their rodents without ill effect - including some of the mods? You know that some of the biggest most successful breeders in the world us it also? Those treatises warning against the purported health risks of pine are not peer reviewed literature but the rantings and beliefs of another forum frau making an amusing attempt to interpret some fairly complex scientific and medical data - data that did not draw the same conclusions as she.

The same debates are held on tortoise forums regarding diet. Some forum warrior did a breakdown of the phyto-chemical components of commonly fed tortoise greens and has started a wide spread belief that perfectly harmless food is harmful. Food that the animals actually eat in large quantities in the wild.

I have been waiting for years for one person to come forward with verifiable proof that pine (we are not talking about cedar) has caused harm to their reptiles, let alone rodents. I've got some really old animals on pine.

Nothing. All forum hookum. All forum rumors.

Now Chris, what if we could show that soaking your snake before it sheds is detrimental on several fronts? We'd then have you - in one thread - advocating a detrimental practice while warning against a harmless one.

Now there is nothing wrong with that - unless someone takes your advice and regularly soaks their snakes and has a problem. Words have weight, and advice is not a thing to be given lightly or without the experience to back it up.

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Awesome! Thanks Skip :) Another forum myth put to rest! I was thinking it was all smoke & mirrors but wasn't 100% sure. Guess who learned something new today!! Haha


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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Pine is toxic to snakes?

How long does it take to kill them? I've been using it for decades....for the love of God, what have I done?

Please let me know ASAP. I need some people who are experienced keepers who have lost snakes to pine or who are battling chronic pine bedding related illnesses to let me know how long my babies have to live.

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I've been keeping mine on pine for a few weeks now so I know what I'm doing. They're all ok. You can keep them on it. Trust me
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/10/ame5u3ym.jpg

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I've been keeping mine on pine for a few weeks now so I know what I'm doing. They're all ok. You can keep them on it. Trust me
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/10/ame5u3ym.jpg

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Wow, the detail in that photo is just brilliant! Your photography skills are astounding Mike.

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Originally Posted by JoRandom

Wow, the detail in that photo is just brilliant! Your photography skills are astounding Mike.

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Thanks! I took it myself. With a camera.

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