Male Eastern Black Headed Python Shed Pics

My male Eastern Black Headed Python just shed this morning and I was able to snap a few pics of him right after he completed it. I hope you love these pictures as much as I do! :D
http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps47ae4109.jpg
http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/a...psef9fbaa7.jpg
http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps8830532e.jpg

Man those things are cool looking.

What's its personality like?

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Originally Posted by dkspftw

Man those things are cool looking.

What's its personality like?

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Both the male and female are pretty puppy dog tame for the most part. I've used both of them in educational demonstrations I do and I've never had a problem with aggressive behavior towards people. In the case of feeding them however, they go Dr.Jekyl / Mr. Hyde on anything that looks like food. If they catch the scent of defrosted rat in their cage, all bets are off. They won't strike and coil, but more like rush up, bump the rat a couple of times with their nose, and then wrap (It's something i'm really not used to feeding snakes like my boas and ball pythons). But even with their aggressive feeding behaviors, I absolutely love working with this species and educating people about them. :)

That's really awesome. They're incredibly intimidating looking, so sleek!

Probably one of the best looking species of snakes in my opinion!!! Absolutely love the way they look!!! ONE DAY!!!!

Love them!

I REALLY want to get into some BHPs, but I have some other projects that are higher priority right now

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Great pictures and beautiful snake.

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Awesome snake. I just saw my first BHP in person the other day. I have been saving up to get a pair of Womas, but these guys are pretty cool!

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Originally Posted by thinkbig317

Probably one of the best looking species of snakes in my opinion!!! Absolutely love the way they look!!! ONE DAY!!!!

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I would definitely suggest this species to anyone with a good amount of experience with snake husbandry before hand. Just keep that mindset on getting a black headed python one day and I assure that you won't be disappointed with getting one these beauties! :)

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

Awesome snake. I just saw my first BHP in person the other day. I have been saving up to get a pair of Womas, but these guys are pretty cool!

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Both species in the genus Aspidites are extremely beautiful and unique Australian pythons. I haven't worked with Woma pythons, but if they are anything like my Black Headed Pythons you are definitely in for an extremely rewarding species. :D

Nice animal.

Question: how is the locality of the snake determined? (ie eastern versus western). Is the locality verified somehow or is the descriptor "eastern" based on appearance?

Thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Nice animal.

Question: how is the locality of the snake determined? (ie eastern versus western). Is the locality verified somehow or is the descriptor "eastern" based on appearance?

Thanks in advance.

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Good question! I actually didn't know myself until I went down to the 2013 National Reptile Breeders Expo in Daytona and saw a comparison for myself. It's difficult to say exact locales of specimens unless you find breeders that have kept extensive records of where they received their specimens originally came from. I was fortunate enough to find a breeder who did have such records, and mine are from the Queensland locale. Though breeders now usually just label their specimens as Black Headed Pythons unless they have records to validate their locales. As far as physical differences, the eastern variety of Black Headed Pythons tend to be larger and have more black and yellow or black and orange coloration to them. While the western variety tend to be smaller and have more a black and white or black and creme coloration. I posted a picture below of a western variety I saw while I was down at the 2013 NRBE. Hope this helps!:)

http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps5658f40d.jpg

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Originally Posted by MayerReptiles

Good question! I actually didn't know myself until I went down to the 2013 National Reptile Breeders Expo in Daytona and saw a comparison for myself. It's difficult to say exact locales of specimens unless you find breeders that have kept extensive records of where they received their specimens originally came from. I was fortunate enough to find a breeder who did have such records, and mine are from the Queensland locale. Though breeders now usually just label their specimens as Black Headed Pythons unless they have records to validate their locales. As far as physical differences, the eastern variety of Black Headed Pythons tend to be larger and have more black and yellow or black and orange coloration to them. While the western variety tend to be smaller and have more a black and white or black and creme coloration. I posted a picture below of a western variety I saw while I was down at the 2013 NRBE. Hope this helps!:)

http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps5658f40d.jpg

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I kept them for years and also spent time working in Australia. The Aussies keep them by locale, and it is possible to confirm lineage. There are geographical intergrades that do not conform to strict color schemes.

As with womas and the various antaresia species, U.S. breeders often classify by looks - as, let's face it, these animals were all illegally smuggled out of Australia.

There are other ways to differentiate, namely a single pair of parietal bones in western populations as opposed to two or three in other populations. In terms of difference you can actually readily see, western specimens have fewer subocular and loreal scales.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I kept them for years and also spent time working in Australia. The Aussies keep them by locale, and it is possible to confirm lineage. There are geographical intergrades that do not conform to strict color schemes.

As with womas and the various antaresia species, U.S. breeders often classify by looks - as, let's face it, these animals were all illegally smuggled out of Australia.

There are other ways to differentiate, namely a single pair of parietal bones in western populations as opposed to two or three in other populations. In terms of difference you can actually readily see, western specimens have fewer subocular and loreal scales.

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I never knew that! I really appreciate you teaching me more about differentiating Black Headed Pythons locales by their scale counts :). Also really cool to know you've raised some yourself and spent time in Australia with this wonderful species. :D

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Originally Posted by MayerReptiles

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I never knew that! I really appreciate you teaching me more about differentiating Black Headed Pythons locales by their scale counts :). Also really cool to know you've raised some yourself and spent time in Australia with this wonderful species. :D

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It's a bit humbling to see how many Aussie keepers keep and catalog their animals - in terms of localities. People in this Country do it with pines, gophers, bulls, kings and other native animals. There is an amazing diversity sometimes going simply from county to county and it's an excellent way to celebrate and keep true that diversity.

Unfortunately in some circles we stifle that diversity for the sake of aesthetics. True black tailed cribos can often be found in various central american localities with browned out tails. Well, some arbiter somewhere decided a pretty cribo doth not a brown tail make - so they are deemed an inferior animal, not true to some imaginary standard.

How many people on this dedicated forum know what differences lie between ball pythons that hail from different localities in Africa? I'd guess a miniscule number seeing as color morphs rule the roost. But stop for a sec and imagine how neat cataloging the subtle differences in geographical variants and breeding true to those localities would be.

I can't count the number of woma localities, stimson's localities and the like. Then you come here and people are claiming locality specific animals without any proof of origin. Years ago when many Australian species first became available, we had no idea where the animals were coming from. Now years and years later, people can all of a sudden pin-point their origin. No knock on you - just a somewhat jaded observation of marketing techniques in this hobby.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

It's a bit humbling to see how many Aussie keepers keep and catalog their animals - in terms of localities. People in this Country do it with pines, gophers, bulls, kings and other native animals. There is an amazing diversity sometimes going simply from county to county and it's an excellent way to celebrate and keep true that diversity.

Unfortunately in some circles we stifle that diversity for the sake of aesthetics. True black tailed cribos can often be found in various central american localities with browned out tails. Well, some arbiter somewhere decided a pretty cribo doth not a brown tail make - so they are deemed an inferior animal, not true to some imaginary standard.

How many people on this dedicated forum know what differences lie between ball pythons that hail from different localities in Africa? I'd guess a miniscule number seeing as color morphs rule the roost. But stop for a sec and imagine how neat cataloging the subtle differences in geographical variants and breeding true to those localities would be.

I can't count the number of woma localities, stimson's localities and the like. Then you come here and people are claiming locality specific animals without any proof of origin. Years ago when many Australian species first became available, we had no idea where the animals were coming from. Now years and years later, people can all of a sudden pin-point their origin. No knock on you - just a somewhat jaded observation of marketing techniques in this hobby.

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I take absolutely no offense to the observation, rather I welcome it with an open mind and learn something completely new about the reptile hobby :). I completely agree with you that it's a shame that most breeders here in the states don't keep or have records on the origins of their reptiles that have been imported (either legally or illegally). As both a huge reptile enthusiast and biology teacher, I would love to learn about these overlooked subtle differences between different locales in varying species much like the example you gave with the black tailed cribos ,womas, stimson's python, or ball pythons. It would make a great lecture or presentation to teach people about geographic isolation, genetics, and subspecies. I also completely agree that establishing true breeding lines of these animals would be extremely interesting to see how each locales unique traits would vary them from others of the same species rather than seeing the current reptile market mind set of color morphs in their animals. With knowledge like that on specific species locales, it would definitely prove to be a rare and valuable skill set in possibly identifying future or current species locales in collections and clarifying any questions people may have about the origins and locales of their reptiles. Though given the market here in the states and interbreeding of different locales in varying species, I could see how it be almost nearly impossible to pin point their origins without the proper paperwork and records to prove it.
Thank you again for all the info! :D

Nice BHPs you have.

I've been keeping BHPs for about 14 years and have bred them for 11 now. I've also done a ton of research into our lines and what was "brought in" over the years.

One thing I can say for absolute certain is there are no verifiable locale animals anywhere in this country.

Sure, there are "west" animals, etc but...I'm not aware of any definite locale (like Pilbara for example) existing here in the US.

There were animals that were brought in from all over the western region. Wether or not those animals were from 3 miles away or 300 miles away is anybody's guess. Lots of variation can occur with-in a relativity short distance. I've got western animals....and some of them are very "Pilbara" looking in appearance but, when bred together....shows signs of being mixed locales....maybe from further north such as Sandfire or 80 mile beach.

Most of our founding BHPs were established in captive collections in the US from zoo line animals. Same for Europe and Australia for that matter.
In fact, the origin of the axanthic BHPs all over the world trace back to a founding zoo line in Aussie from Northern Territory animals.

Ironically enough, I have not been able to find any solid info on "eastern" animals or "queensland" animals anywhere in the US and from what I know from the lines that are here legally and not....they do not exist in the US.

I'm sure there may have been a few that came through but, knowing the time line (I've been watching BHPs on pricelist and talking to breeders since the mid 80s about these animals)....there just doesn't seem to be any around. None of our zoo lines were eastern animals and when the smuggling was going on....they were going after the smaller and more contrasted "western" animals.

Love the history of this species though. There is no other species that has held it's value as long as (in natural form) other than the Boelens.

D

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Originally Posted by MayerReptiles

I completely agree with you that it's a shame that most breeders here in the states don't keep or have records on the origins of their reptiles that have been imported (either legally or illegally). As both a huge reptile enthusiast and biology teacher, I would love to learn about these overlooked subtle differences between different locales in varying species much like the example you gave with the black tailed cribos ,womas, stimson's python, or ball pythons.

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You're more than welcome to give me a shout at anytime. I have tons of "origin" info I could share with you.

Cheers,
D

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

There are other ways to differentiate, namely a single pair of parietal bones in western populations as opposed to two or three in other populations. In terms of difference you can actually readily see, western specimens have fewer subocular and loreal scales.

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This is where people get confused looking at written info on line.

Actually, you can find every type of head scalation that occurs within BHPs in "west" aussie. The only place you see scalation differences is in the Southern Coastal Pilbara region. All of the animals in this area have single loreals, no sub oculars and one pair of Parietals.

Anywhere else in west aussie...they can appear just like any other BHP from any other part of Australia.

D

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Originally Posted by Derek Roddy

You're more than welcome to give me a shout at anytime. I have tons of "origin" info I could share with you.

Cheers,
D

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Thank you very much! This is exactly why I joined these forums to meet people like you and Skiploder that help me learn more about these animals I love! It's quite fascinating to hear about your research in trying to find exact locales of your Australian snakes, especially tracing the origins of the axanthic mutation in the Black Headed Pythons back to a zoo line from Australia. Also love your website, very well put together, informative, and especially love the yellow jacket Black Headed Python you have shown there. I'm sure I will be messaging you soon for all my Black Headed Python and "origin" questions :). Also, I've seen 3 lock-ups between the pair, so there may be a couple of incubation questions as well down the line since I've heard incubation of Black Headed Python eggs tend to be tricky.

I am no longer into pythons at all, so I'm not really familiar with who is breeding what or better yet, who is claiming what. I do see ads pop up from time to time however........

I have, however, seen people advertising "Western" type Melanocephalus............ as well as Eastern. Having herped Australia while I lived there, I do have knowledge on how appearances can vary - example, somewhat unique animals from Durack (Port Hedland) and even discernible color variations within the Kimberley itself. Not to charge to far off the subject but among stimsoni, the differences between locales can be shocking.

While I was there I worked with William Messick who, while doesn't frequent any forums, had an extensive locality collection of aspidites - both womas and black heads. If you had asked me 15 years ago to define a "western" type, I would honestly be stumped.

...and still am.

The question is this - is this an accepted descriptor based on appearance or based on the known traceable origin of the animals? If the easterns are not traceable in this country, why are people selling animals as "eastern" type?

http://www.derekroddysblackheadedpyt...types-2614866/


I hope that link works, personally I think that's one of the best explanations there has been on the subject.

Is "western type" or "western phase" an accurate descriptive word for animals? To me it seems to be widely accepted as meaning the more black and white high contrast animals and I don't really have a problem with that, I think it's much less wrong than "codom/co-dom" but good luck ever getting rid of that! ;) I preferably would rather see more descriptive terms used though instead, as is talked about in the link I posted.

I would be very skeptical of anyone using "western" and claiming it to truely be a locality animal (outside of australia) unless you can show who illegally smuggled the animal or it's parents out of the country and prove where it's lineage was wild caught from...again, good luck with that one also. Somewhere along the way in there you're also going to end up having to trust the word of an animal smuggler...and if they were really the most honest people in the world, they wouldn't be doing what they're doing.

I have also seen the variation of high color to high contrast (eastern and western) come out of the same clutch and the animals be described as eastern and western type even though they were clutch mates. I really don't fault people for this in describing color and contrast, but I also don't put any weight into the words actually having anything to do with locality.

I do think if aussie borders ever open up, and 100% pure pilbara animals (what I would consider a true western type in looks and locality) are imported, they will command a significantly higher price than our generic westerns that we have now, same goes for some of the other more refined locality animals down under...again though, good luck with that ever happening, you'll probably have a better shot at getting rid of "codom".:gj:

BHPs are beautiful and impressive animals, I love mine and OP you have a great looking animal, I hope you enjoy it for many years to come.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I am no longer into pythons at all, so I'm not really familiar with who is breeding what or better yet, who is claiming what. I do see ads pop up from time to time however........

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In the last several years... I have been able to turn up paperwork on a lot of our founding lines just by doing a little research and writing zoo's , etc. For instance, there were several animals brought in by Shultz from the Perth Zoo in a trade for Sanzinia. Perth Zoo animals are from the Sandfire Locale. Problem is...when these animals were brought in...there was one female (ironically, the only one I can track down) and 3 males in the group. They went to :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r: Goergen in the mid 90s.
Our axanthic line stems from animals from Australia zoo from over 30 years ago. They were animals collected the NT....around the Rabbit Flats area. Of course, there are the animals that were brought in illegally....and, if you know where to look and who to ask....you can get viable info and even some location data and pictures if you try hard enough. Haha.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

While I was there I worked with William Messick who, while doesn't frequent any forums, had an extensive locality collection of aspidites - both womas and black heads. If you had asked me 15 years ago to define a "western" type, I would honestly be stumped.

...and still am.

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Messick...haven't heard his name in quite awhile. Did some good work with all types of Aussie critters.

There are 2 areas in Aussie that I would consider to have slight differences to other BHPs. One being the Pilbara, the other being the Kimberley. Having been there multiple times myself, I would agree that most keepers wouldn't know a "west" BHP if it was right in front of them. I've developed a very good eye for spotting animals with western lineage. You can get animals in Queensland that are every bit as "white and black" but, the pattern of animals to the west of the 80 mile beach area...is something you don't see on bhps anywhere else in Aussie.

Another misconception is that all the BHPs in the Pilbara are light cream/white and that is certainly not the case. I've seen BHPs just as dark colored as BHP anywhere else in Aussie out there....but, the patterns are very consistent from animal to animal in that region. Some a little thinner, some a little thicker but, they ALL have that certain look about them. A look that you just don't see to the east of that area. And you'll never see red coloration on animals in the Pilbara. Don't start seeing that until you get into the Kimberleys.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

The question is this - is this an accepted descriptor based on appearance or based on the known traceable origin of the animals?

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It's a bit of both these days. Most people call a red banded animal a east and, most call a black banded animal a west. It's a case of "they simply don't know" and "it hard to reverse what the Barkers have written in a book". And in reality, anything to the right of west Aussie is east.....right? Haha.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

If the easterns are not traceable in this country, why are people selling animals as "eastern" type?

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They simply don't know any better or they haven't done their research. This is why I tell buyers to make sure they get these animals from people who know them....not just a keeper with one pair giving wrong info....... if you're into lineage, etc.

D

Another thing to consider is that the term "east BHP" was never used until the "west" BHP started being illegally imported.

That might have something to do with the description variable. "It's not a west....must be a east".

D

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Originally Posted by rascal_rascal_99

I would be very skeptical of anyone using "western" and claiming it to truely be a locality animal (outside of australia)

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Make no mistake about it....there are western animals here. I have a boat load of them. What we don't know is if one of those animals came from 80 mile beach and the other from Derby. That's a big distance and you can get several different types of BHPs with in it and, it will show up in your breeding trials. I do have one pair of animals that is as close to any Pilbara that I've seen and they breed true....the right head scales, pattern, color, etc. But some of my others....breed out animals that could be from the Kimberley areas, etc. BUT, they are western animals. It's the same as breeding a south carolina corn snake from Greenville to a "okeetee"...they're still SC corn snakes.

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Originally Posted by rascal_rascal_99

unless you can show who illegally smuggled the animal or it's parents out of the country and prove where it's lineage was wild caught from...again, good luck with that one also.

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There were several people who got west animals in and I do have all the collection info for most of them. Again, if you do the research and verify it between a few people....you can start to put a pretty clear picture together.

D

Thanks for the input D, I know you've studied this long and hard and trust your word on it! :gj: