Not thrilled with LLL Reptile.

I'm writing this review as a general warning to any future LLL customers, it's not intended to be really negative. Just my experience.

On January 26th I purchased a Axanthic Florida Kingsnake from the LLL Reptile booth at the Manchester, New Hampshire Expo. She was in shed when I got her. I took her home and she went in my 6qt baby ball python rack. She had shredded newspaper substrate, a small water dish, and a hot spot of 90degrees. She shed a couple days after I got her and then ate a f/t pinky mouse day or two after that. On February 5th I found her dead in her tub. I'm not sure how rigor mortis works with snakes but she wasn't fully stiff so I'm assuming she had passed relatively soon to when I found her.

I emailed LLL Reptile explaining what had happened and that the snake had died after only 10 days in my care. The woman who responded was very nice and said that it was their policy to only offer a 24hr guarantee on animals bought at expos. She said in the email " Typically, if a snake is having health issues of concern, it won't want to eat.:cens0r: The fact that your snake shed normally then ate indicates it was feeling fine for at least a few days after you got it home." but then later in the email says " I'm really sorry to hear that your snake died, especially since it seems like it happened rather suddenly and without warning." Now, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but that seems awfully contradictory to me. "your snake sounds like it was healthy for the first few days, then died suddenly." Well, if it was fine for the first few days and then died rather suddenly, how could it have picked up something in my care?

I'm not really trying to trash LLL Reptile and this is why I didn't title the thread as a negative review, I'm just not thrilled with them. I've kept ball pythons for almost seven years now and this was my first new species besides them that I've kept. I'm not trying to sound all high and mighty but combining my experience with snakes and the fact that EVERYONE I talked to praised the hardiness of kings really makes me believe that there was something wrong with the snake before I got it. There's no way I can prove that though, so that's why I'm not attacking them. I was offered a discount on another snake but I'm not really interested in that. I'm glad it was only $50 because if this purchase had been a lot more I would be a lot more frustrated.

Anyways, just thought I'd write this to let everyone know my experience.

Thanks for taking the time to read,

Mike

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Sorry to hear about your troubles, Mike. Hopefully, LLL will chime in. I know they used to be a member here.

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Originally Posted by Slim

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Mike. Hopefully, LLL will chime in. I know they used to be a member here.

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Yes, I believe Jen is the one who posts on here. I don't really think that there's anything that could be done about it, it is their policy, I respect that. That's why I didn't come on here cussing them out, I just wanted to let people know I wasn't impressed.

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The gal that posts here seems nice and helpful enough. But I really haven't read a ton of great stuff about them. Idk, policy is policy. But, after only 10 days?? :( Sorry for your loss.

What can a snake have that will make it act 100% fine and then just die?

Sucks Mike...and Florida Kings are such awesome, hearty snakes. I really don't feel that a 90 degree hot spot is necessary for them, but not something that would kill them. Not sure if LLL breeds their Fla Kings, but they do buy and resell in high volume. That nature of business(I'm not saying it's bad business) lends itself to this kind of thing happening on occasion...which is why they have the standard pet shop 24 hour policy on reptiles. Disappointing to lose the snake so soon, but they did go above and beyond their own terms to offer you a discount on a future purchase. The business side of dealing with live animals is not always pretty or satisfying to all parties involved, but it is business. And the again, sometimes the animals do just die suddenly with no explanation.

Out of curiosity, what, if any resolution to your issue were you seeking?

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Sucks Mike...and Florida Kings are such awesome, hearty snakes. I really don't feel that a 90 degree hot spot is necessary for them, but not something that would kill them. Not sure if LLL breeds their Fla Kings, but they do buy and resell in high volume. That nature of business(I'm not saying it's bad business) lends itself to this kind of thing happening on occasion...which is why they have the standard pet shop 24 hour policy on reptiles. Disappointing to lose the snake so soon, but they did go above and beyond their own terms to offer you a discount on a future purchase. The business side of dealing with live animals is not always pretty or satisfying to all parties involved, but it is business. And the again, sometimes the animals do just die suddenly with no explanation.

Out of curiosity, what, if any resolution to your issue were you seeking?

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Yea, theres a big difference between a breeder and just a seller. Learned that the hard way a bit here but such is life.

None, I just made this thread to let people know to think before they buy, and share my mistake. I would have liked a refund since I don't feel I was at fault, but I respect their policy. Business is business.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

theres a big difference between a breeder and just a seller

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They do breed as well...

While Jen is a very nice person and very talkative and helpful, I personally wouldn't ever get an animal from LLL and this is only because I've seen them at shows years ago back before they had Repticon in Louisiana and it was still Gila Productions.

Other people on that same list are:
Glades Herps(closed)
House of Reptiles(otherwise known as House of Mites to locals from Jacksonville, FL)

I've personally never purchased from them, but with your story and others I've heard over the years I have a list of certain people I don't purchase from. As you perfectly stated there is a difference between a breeder and a seller.

I would be curious to know how old the animal was and if it had ever had a bowel movement. Occasionally animals are born not right on the inside and just perish young. Most reputable breeders won't release an animal until it is eating strong and passing solid waste. Seeing as your girl was small enough to to be offered a pinky mouse she couldn't have been old at all. I wonder if she had passed the early, albeit important, milestones of eating and sheeting. Sorry for your loss and hope the experience doesn't turn you off of other species. Kings are a hoot and a half to keep. Just start with a healthy specimen.

Living in Southern California I am a regular customer of LLL Reptile's stores and have nothing but good things to say. The stores are always clean and the animals are well taken care of. The staff really cares about not only the animals but the customers as well.

Hardly seems fair to base judgement on what happened "years ago". If you haven't checked them out recently maybe you should.

There are very few sellers out there that would guarantee health past 5 days. It's just the way it is. Having a snake die suddenly after 10 days, while tragic for the OP, is not unheard of, and hardly should be held representative of a business. An offer of a discount on another animal is more than most will offer. At least the OP is not on here totally bashing LLL Reptile, and I do understand his feelings about the loss of his snake.

I for one, will continue doing business with them. I even have an order ready to be picked up, so will be going there Saturday morning.

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Originally Posted by Saber402

Living in Southern California I am a regular customer of LLL Reptile's stores and have nothing but good things to say. The stores are always clean and the animals are well taken care of. The staff really cares about not only the animals but the customers as well.

Hardly seems fair to base judgement on what happened "years ago". If you haven't checked them out recently maybe you should.

There are very few sellers out there that would guarantee health past 5 days. It's just the way it is. Having a snake die suddenly after 10 days, while tragic for the OP, is not unheard of, and hardly should be held representative of a business. An offer of a discount on another animal is more than most will offer. At least the OP is not on here totally bashing LLL Reptile, and I do understand his feelings about the loss of his snake.

I for one, will continue doing business with them. I even have an order ready to be picked up, so will be going there Saturday morning.

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Why take a risk when I have two of the best breeders local to me? My local breeders would bend over backwards to help me, if I had an issue a week or two after getting an animal I know they'd make things right. That's like what Mike says about there is a difference between breeders and sellers.

If the snake died 10 days after on a person inexperienced it would be different than on somebody who has experience keeping reptiles. I order nick nack stuff from LLLreptile like PAM or something because it's cheaper and it's not an animal. I saw all that I needed to see when at the reptile show. I'm not going to get into any discussion but I have certain places that I would never purchase an animal from.

This is not a new issue with LLL - it seems that with every satisfied customer they have, there is also a story like Mike's.

The good news is that replacing or refunding sick animals is something they have a lot of experience in. The bad news is that after 10 days they probably won't do it willingly.

There is enough history on the BOI regarding their spotty health issues that members of this forum can determine whether this is part if a pattern or an anomaly.

Once you figure that out, send LLL a message and let them know that members of this forum will not tolerate them not making this right for IUD Mike.

Yeah this is the kind of stuff I hear time and again about LLL, and if I lived local to one of their shops, I may have a different opinion. But I made the decision a long time ago that if I were to order from them, it would be supplies, not live critters. Nothing against the business itself, but it would be more worth my patronage if less than half of the live animal reviews I see have an ending like this. Sorry to hear about your king, Mike, I hope you have better luck if you decide to try again with the species. They're cool animals.

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*waves* Hi Mike!

I'm really, truly sorry to hear the snake didn't do well for you. My understanding is that it was a pretty decently well established snake - the babies from that batch were all well started, and larger than the babies usually listed on our site, so you shouldn't have had trouble with it at all. Kings are a fun species to keep, and (normally) extremely hardy, which is why it is a surprise to hear about one so well started not doing well.

I was made aware of this thread this morning, and as I know Mike is a regular poster who does know his stuff when it comes to ball pythons, I'd actually really like to talk to Mike himself more about his setup and see if we can figure out what happened. Being great at caring for ball pythons doesn't necessarily mean it's an easy transition over to kingsnakes, and sometimes being so well versed in a single species can inadvertently make it more difficult to try new ones. Since the snake was hand picked in person, shed for you, and then ate for you, it makes the situation an odd one for us as well. This sort of thing really doesn't happen very often, which is why we'd be happy to discuss it further with Mike.

Mike, I'd appreciate it if you could PM me and we can try and work out what happened that way. I can talk to Kate once we figure out a few more details and see about getting you a little more credit, as losing a snake after such a short period of time does suck.

I hope to hear from you soon - Jen

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

They do breed as well...

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Lol. You took me too literally rob :p

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Originally Posted by John1982

I would be curious to know how old the animal was and if it had ever had a bowel movement. Occasionally animals are born not right on the inside and just perish young. Most reputable breeders won't release an animal until it is eating strong and passing solid waste. Seeing as your girl was small enough to to be offered a pinky mouse she couldn't have been old at all. I wonder if she had passed the early, albeit important, milestones of eating and sheeting. Sorry for your loss and hope the experience doesn't turn you off of other species. Kings are a hoot and a half to keep. Just start with a healthy specimen.

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She was a baby. I didn't weigh her but she was small. She definitely had a bowel movement bc she pissed/crapped on me lol.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/08/8epuba4e.jpg

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Originally Posted by LLLReptile

*waves* Hi Mike!

I'm really, truly sorry to hear the snake didn't do well for you. My understanding is that it was a pretty decently well established snake - the babies from that batch were all well started, and larger than the babies usually listed on our site, so you shouldn't have had trouble with it at all. Kings are a fun species to keep, and (normally) extremely hardy, which is why it is a surprise to hear about one so well started not doing well.

I was made aware of this thread this morning, and as I know Mike is a regular poster who does know his stuff when it comes to ball pythons, I'd actually really like to talk to Mike himself more about his setup and see if we can figure out what happened. Being great at caring for ball pythons doesn't necessarily mean it's an easy transition over to kingsnakes, and sometimes being so well versed in a single species can inadvertently make it more difficult to try new ones. Since the snake was hand picked in person, shed for you, and then ate for you, it makes the situation an odd one for us as well. This sort of thing really doesn't happen very often, which is why we'd be happy to discuss it further with Mike.

Mike, I'd appreciate it if you could PM me and we can try and work out what happened that way. I can talk to Kate once we figure out a few more details and see about getting you a little more credit, as losing a snake after such a short period of time does suck.

I hope to hear from you soon - Jen

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I find this post sorta contradictory like the email I got... :rollseyes:

I don't have any additional pertinent info that I would be able to provide for you, so I don't see a point in pm-ing you. I described her care in the email and here. I don't have any else to add lol. I always leave my new additions be as much as I can to let them settle in so I wasn't checking on her every day. If it had been a month or two I would be able to give you some more feed back on care routines and what not, but it was only 10 days.

I appreciate it a lot Jen but like I said, I'm not really interested in more credit, I would have just been happy with a refund. But policy is policy and I understand that. It wouldn't be fair for you to give me a refund but not someone else. Nothing personal against you Jen, I'm just not interested in another animal from LLL. Thanks for taking the time to respond though.


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Sorry to hear about your loss in such a short amount of time. :(

I have, and would again, buy supplies from LLL. I'm local to one of their stores, so it's no big deal for me to hop over there. However, I wouldn't purchase animals from them. Their animals have looked to be in pretty good condition when I've been to the stores, looked clean and well cared for, but I still wouldn't buy animals. It's my personal preference. I've seen and heard too many sad stories about animals purchased from stores (in general, not targeting LLL individually). It isn't worth the risk to me.

Sorry to hear about loosing your snake. I have gotten all my reptiles from them with no issue, I live really close to their Escondido location so I am always seeing something that catches my eye when I stop in for supplies.

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Originally Posted by LLLReptile

I was made aware of this thread this morning, and as I know Mike is a regular poster who does know his stuff when it comes to ball pythons, I'd actually really like to talk to Mike himself more about his setup and see if we can figure out what happened. Being great at caring for ball pythons doesn't necessarily mean it's an easy transition over to kingsnakes, and sometimes being so well versed in a single species can inadvertently make it more difficult to try new ones. Since the snake was hand picked in person, shed for you, and then ate for you, it makes the situation an odd one for us as well. This sort of thing really doesn't happen very often, which is why we'd be happy to discuss it further with Mike.

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I find this response an interesting assumption..........................

Mike, in all fairness to LLL, IF you were to privately talk to them and hash things out, and IF they were to offer you a replacement animal, then you should give them that opportunity to rectify the situation. A lot of breeders will offer replacement animals before they offer cash back. Then again, being that this hobby attracts a lot of the underbelly of society as well, there would also be a lot of people that you would never hear back from.

The buyers don't dictate terms of sale, and if the seller is willing to go outside of their terms, you should take their offer. You may rather just have your money back, but IF they are willing to give you a replacement animal, it could be a great one(though if I were you, IF a replacement animal is offered, I would strongly insist on one that they had bred and raised rather than from a "batch" they had recently purchased). You could possibly also use any credit towards purchase of supplies, so you wouldn't have to be weary of another animal. If you flat out refuse any of their resolutions, then you are partly to blame for making it a difficult situation.

I don't blame Jenn for wanting you to take it to PM or e-mail, as that is where it should be discussed...and maybe discussing it with her will have a different result than with whomever you discussed it before.

For the record, I think LLL should rectify the situation....I just don't necessarily believe a refund is the first or only solution.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

I find this response an interesting assumption..........................

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It's called "hedging bets".

You gotta try really hard to kill a king snake. I'm not buying that it was a husbandry error. This wasn't some newbie greenhorn that bought this animal.

If this is something that LLL bred in house, I would ask for all feed, poop and shed records for this animal. If it isn't, then maybe LLL would be so kind as to tell you how long they have had the animal in store and what it's husbandry history was.

If this is an animal purchased from a breeder and re-purposed by LLL, get whatever you can get back, and I'll PM you a list of reputable lampropeltis breeders who can account for their babies from lock to hatch. You can start with a PM or a call to Wes. If he doesn't have an animal that suits your needs, I'm sure he can direct you to a BREEDER that does.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Mike, in all fairness to LLL, IF you were to privately talk to them and hash things out, and IF they were to offer you a replacement animal, then you should give them that opportunity to rectify the situation. A lot of breeders will offer replacement animals before they offer cash back. Then again, being that this hobby attracts a lot of the underbelly of society as well, there would also be a lot of people that you would never hear back from.

The buyers don't dictate terms of sale, and if the seller is willing to go outside of their terms, you should take their offer. You may rather just have your money back, but IF they are willing to give you a replacement animal, it could be a great one(though if I were you, IF a replacement animal is offered, I would strongly insist on one that they had bred and raised rather than from a "batch" they had recently purchased). You could possibly also use any credit towards purchase of supplies, so you wouldn't have to be weary of another animal. If you flat out refuse any of their resolutions, then you are partly to blame for making it a difficult situation.

I don't blame Jenn for wanting you to take it to PM or e-mail, as that is where it should be discussed...and maybe discussing it with her will have a different result than with whomever you discussed it before.

For the record, I think LLL should rectify the situation....I just don't necessarily believe a refund is the first or only solution.

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Well, to be perfectly honest, the reason I don't want a replacement animal is bc i think that the kingsnake could have had something. If it did then their other animals might too. It scares the ever living crap out of me because I have a lot invested in my ball python collection. I mean money obviously, but also a lot of time and energy.

I realize that it may come across as me being "difficult" but I'm not. I've already said I accept that I won't get a refund and that's why I didn't make this thread attacking them. If I came on here acting like a victim whining about stuff and freaking out I would agree with you, I didn't though. I've said numerous times now I'm not pissed off or anything, just disappointed. I just wanted to share my experience. If someone reads this and goes "oh what an idiot he should have just got another animal from them at a discount" then so be it. That's their own prerogative. But I'm sure there's also people who will read it and feel how I do. That's it.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

the reason I don't want a replacement animal is bc i think that the kingsnake could have had something.

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Then have a necropsy done....not cool to speculate on a public forum like that. If it scares you that much, it should be no issue to follow the proper protocol to either confirm or alleviate your fear. If you're not willing to do that, you surely shouldn't be bringing it up here...

Have you addressed this particular concern of yours with LLL?

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Then have a necropsy done....not cool to speculate on a public forum like that. If it scares you that much, it should be no issue to follow the proper protocol to either confirm or alleviate your fear. If you're not willing to do that, you surely shouldn't be bringing it up here...

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So do you not believe in the BOI over on fauna?

And should mike have just bit the bullet, not told anyone, and other people made a false good faith purchase of another possibly sick kingsnake?

If you eat at a restaurant, you're gonna tell people who talk about it that you got sick there. Right? Or are you the kind of person to just keep quiet.

If someone cuts you off on the highway, do you just assume you're the one who can't drive?

Everything wrong with the world, right here everyone. Right. Here.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

So do you not believe in the BOI over on fauna?

And should mike have just bit the bullet, not told anyone, and other people made a false good faith purchase of another possibly sick kingsnake?

If you eat at a restaurant, you're gonna tell people who talk about it that you got sick there. Right? Or are you the kind of person to just keep quiet.

If someone cuts you off on the highway, do you just assume you're the one who can't drive?

Everything wrong with the world, right here everyone. Right. Here.

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Lacking comprehension skills Kodie??? What you just said has nearly zero relevance to what I said.

An animal dying after a short time is one thing, could be one of any several reasons that don't include wiping out collections...thinking the animal may infect his entire collection and spouting off about it here with nothing to back it up is entirely different. It would be different had Mike presented it as this....

"The kingsnake died for no apparent reason, so I have sent it off for a necropsy and will update this thread with results when I receive them."

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Lacking comprehension skills Kodie??? What you just said has nearly zero relevance to what I said.

An animal dying after a short time is one thing, could be one of any several reasons that don't include wiping out collections...thinking the animal may infect his entire collection and spouting off about it here with nothing to back it up is entirely different. It would be different had Mike presented it as this....

"The kingsnake died for no apparent reason, so I have sent it off for a necropsy and will update this thread with results when I receive them."

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That'd be your lack of comprehension, actually.

But this thread isn't about your lack comprehension or the fact that you would let other people potentially suffer your same experience with a business unaware that it could be consistent behavior.

Your incompetence is documented though.

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Robs clearly right. I should go spend more money I won't get back on a necropsy. If I've repeatedly mentioned that I don't think I killed it then isn't that subtly implying I think it was an issue on their end? I'm not making any specific accusations here, just in general, I think it was an issue on their end. That's it. And since it's been brought to my attention that I'm not the only one whose had an experience like this, I think it's a fair accusation.

You honestly must be reading my responses in the weirdest way. Not every review thread has to be completely positive or completely negative.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

"The kingsnake died for no apparent reason, so I have sent it off for a necropsy and will update this thread with results when I receive them."

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And then LLL would still offer me the same solution, a credit/discount. And I'd be out more money for a necro

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If it was me and I had as much money in to my other snakes as you have and I bring a new one home and it dies so randomly:( You can bet id be doing what ever it takes to find out what has killed it.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

You honestly must be reading my responses in the weirdest way.

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Mike, I was with you all the way until the following...Did I not read it correctly? To me, "something" came across as disease or infection...is that weird?

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

the kingsnake could have had something. If it did then their other animals might too. It scares the ever living crap out of me because I have a lot invested in my ball python collection.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

And then LLL would still offer me the same solution, a credit/discount. And I'd be out more money for a necro

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And what price can you put on the alleviation of your concerns for your established collection? Also, if the king snake had "something", or an infection that could spread through collections, you'd be doing a number of people a service by putting out your money and reporting any findings.

Quite a small price to pay, I'd say.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

That'd be your lack of comprehension, actually.

But this thread isn't about your lack comprehension or the fact that you would let other people potentially suffer your same experience with a business unaware that it could be consistent behavior.

Your incompetence is documented though.

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More gibberish disregarded...

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Originally Posted by fishdip

If it was me and I had as much money in to my other snakes as you have and I bring a new one home and it dies so randomly:( You can bet id be doing what ever it takes to find out what has killed it.

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I would too, a very small price for confirmation or alleviation of my concerns.




Again Mike, I was with you all the way until "something" came up...If I had the same fear of "something" entering my collection, I would certainly try my best and spend my money to figure out what that "something" is. If you're not willing to do that, then why say it...These "somethings" they may or may not be introduced into collections are taken very seriously and are very easy seeds to plant. I don't blame you for your worries(I'd probably have concerns as well), but not cool stating them here if you're not going to follow up on them, that's all.

Oh where to start... I'm not sure why Rob is so fired up over this. Mike posted his experience. That is all. Like Kodie said, what about the boi? You can bet that If I had a less than pleasant experience with a purchase, I'd post about it. If nothing else so others can at least be wary/cautious doing business with said person.

That being said, If I purchased a snake that died within 10 days, I certainly wouldn't want another animal from the same place. If a full refund wasn't an option, then I'd just be up poop creek and out the money. So while them offering credit or another animal would be a nice jesture on their part, it would not be a solution, if it were me. So it would boil down to policy , and customer is just sol. Which is what happened here.

Also, I don't think it's that big of a leap to another species if you have snake experience, general snake info, and have done research on said species. Mike is not new nor an idiot.

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

I'm not sure why Rob is so fired up over this. Mike posted his experience. That is all.

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Rob is not fired up at all....Mike posted his experience, which is absolutely fine. Mike deserves some sort of resolution...100%. I personally don't believe Mike should have been posting about his thoughts about a possible illness/disease or "something" that may have led to the death of his newly acquired king snake and possibly spread to his collection to make him worry so much if he hasn't noticed any symptoms and is not willing to have a necropsy done. I am a fan of the BOI, as it encourages those with complaints to back up their complaints factually. Mike's snake died, that is a fact. Mike posted that he thinks it may have had something....without a necropsy, there is no verifying what caused the animals death. This is why I personally believe those thoughts were better kept to himself. When it comes to diseases wiping out collections, seeds are very easily planted....even by statements that are made about one own's personal thoughts that he has no intention of having checked out. Again, not fired up at all, just my opinion, that is all.

Not to be a party crasher, but I don't think Mike posted this to get advice on what course of action he should take; this is quickly devolving into a witch hunt over who is to blame and how to get "compensation" from the guilty party. Do we really need to try and pin someone to the wall over this?? I don't think that's what Mike wants...

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

Not to be a party crasher, but I don't think Mike posted this to get advice on what course of action he should take; this is quickly devolving into a witch hunt over who is to blame and how to get "compensation" from the guilty party. Do we really need to try and pin someone to the wall over this?? I don't think that's what Mike wants...

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I don't think this is about whose to blame at all. I said what I did, because LLL in their response kinda started the finger pointing, and I simply don't think Mike was at fault. And no, I don't think he posted this for advice. Like I said earlier, he simply posted his experience.

Play nice............

This is more about a vent on something that shouldnt have happened.
Clean the QT rack and move on
There is no way to know if a necropsy would do any good at this point either.
It is what it is, one reason i dont buy from a flipper.

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

Not to be a party crasher, but I don't think Mike posted this to get advice on what course of action he should take; this is quickly devolving into a witch hunt over who is to blame and how to get "compensation" from the guilty party. Do we really need to try and pin someone to the wall over this?? I don't think that's what Mike wants...

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I agree with you as well, but honestly that's what usually happens when you posts something on the internet. Whether it's on a forum, facebook, or elsewhere there's always going to be someone who will agree, disagree, or remain neutral but everyone is going to put in their input good or bad.

Quit rat-packing Rob. He isn't saying anything that is unreasonable. If Mike is worried about something more sinister, a necropsy is in order.

He can post the results here. If the animal had an underlying condition, then LLL can compensate Mike for the necropsy. If they balk, then they will be outed here in public. I'm sure LLL would realize that the cost ramifications on future business far eclipse picking up the necropsy tab.

If the animal has something that can threaten Mike's collection, then LLL reptile can compensate Mike for the necropsy and they can open a discussion on what other compensation may be in order to ensure the rest of his animals remain healthy.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

It is what it is, one reason i dont buy from a flipper.

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It's about time someone put that out there...........

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Rob is not fired up at all....Mike posted his experience, which is absolutely fine. Mike deserves some sort of resolution...100%. I personally don't believe Mike should have been posting about his thoughts about a possible illness/disease or "something" that may have led to the death of his newly acquired king snake and possibly spread to his collection to make him worry so much if he hasn't noticed any symptoms and is not willing to have a necropsy done. I am a fan of the BOI, as it encourages those with complaints to back up their complaints factually. Mike's snake died, that is a fact. Mike posted that he thinks it may have had something....without a necropsy, there is no verifying what caused the animals death. This is why I personally believe those thoughts were better kept to himself. When it comes to diseases wiping out collections, seeds are very easily planted....even by statements that are made about one own's personal thoughts that he has no intention of having checked out. Again, not fired up at all, just my opinion, that is all.

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A friend had a necro done within the past year on a BP and it ran her $450. I don't have that kind of cash to drop and on top of that it was $50. And On top of that, is there really that much the vet could find on a snake that small?

Like I said (repeating myself AGAIN) I wasn't placing any blame at all with my OP. Between your responses and Jens it brought it out of me to say "well this is really how I feel, but I can't say for sure..." bc I felt like you guys were trying to say it was my fault. I'm speculating, that's all. Someone reading this thread would not read what I wrote and be like "oh LLL are bad people who sell snakes with diseases, Mike said so!" well, except for you apparently...



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Originally Posted by Skiploder

It's about time someone put that out there...........

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I'm sorry to butt in but I've been reading and what is a flipper? Lol

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Quit rat-packing Rob. He isn't saying anything that is unreasonable. If Mike is worried about something more sinister, a necropsy is in order.

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No rat packing here Skip, that is all I was saying to begin with. Mike actually did say he thought the king snake may have had something, and that's why I was driving at the point that he should have a necropsy done.

Mike, never said you're to blame, and that you should be compensated in some form or another. If you think something was wrong with the king snake you should have a necropsy done, and pending results should then be sorted out with LLL.

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Originally Posted by Doggey75

I'm sorry to butt in but I've been reading and what is a flipper? Lol

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The question is "Who WAS Flipper".

The answer is a friendly dolphin who befriended a young boy. The theme song went like this:

They call him Mikey, Mikey, he posts faster than lightning,
No-one you see, is a bigger post whore than he,
And we know that Mikey, lives in his mother's basement,
Driving there - behind the wheel of a Su-bar-oooooo
Everyone loves the clown prince of OT,
Ever so complimentary and silly is he,
Thanks he will give when women post their selfies,
The number one leg-humper is he!
They call him Mikey, Mikey, he posts faster than lightning,
No-one you see, is a bigger post whore than he,
And we know that Mikey, lives in his mother's basement,
Driving there-behind the wheel of a Su-bar-ooooo

Or something like that.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

No rat packing here Skip, that is all I was saying to begin with. Mike actually did say he thought the king snake may have had something, and that's why I was driving at the point that he should have a necropsy done.

Mike, never said you're to blame, and that you should be compensated in some form or another. If you think something was wrong with the king snake you should have a necropsy done, and pending results should then be sorted out with LLL.

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Re-read it Rob. I was telling the cool kids to stop rat packing you.

Sometimes they get their wood all up and don't know what to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Re-read it Rob. I was telling the cool kids to stop rat packing you.

Sometimes they get their wood all up and don't know what to do with it.

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My bad Skip...:gj:

I'm done with this thread. In the future I'll keep my experiences and opinions to myself. Threads like this are why I've slowed down with the posts on this site so much. They get turned into something completely different than what I intended

Skip go pound rocks in the skid loader down under, and give all the snakes you see kisses. I hear there aren't any dangerous ones there so you should be good

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I'm done with this thread. In the future I'll keep my experiences and opinions to myself. Threads like this are why I've slowed down with the posts on this site so much. They get turned into something completely different than what I intended

Skip go pound rocks in the skid loader down under, and give all the snakes you see kisses. I hear there aren't any dangerous ones there so you should be good

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I remember when you could give as good as you got.....or at least when you weren't so lazy with your comebacks.

This thread served a very good purpose. You got hosed. LLL should work with you on the necropsy costs. I know I would....

I was visiting when Mike picked the snake up, I am personally the one who pointed her out to him. I can vouch that she *appeared* healthy at the time he picked her up. I can also vouch that Mike's setups are up to par. I personally have two kings, a mexican black (nigrita) and a Cali (californiae,) who are and have been thriving in my nearly identical setup, though neither came from LLL. I've purchased many supplies from LLL and have seen them at tons of shows in my area, so I recommended them. After this incident I've read up on their BOI history with live animals. I now seriously regret recommending them to him or pointing that snake out and am thankful I have never purchased anything live from them.

As far as the necropsy goes, I personally wouldn't be having one done in these circumstances. There is no way he'll be reimbursed the cost of one no matter what the findings, and she WAS a different species than the rest of his collection, therefore less likely to transmit something. I know that Mike is reasonably careful about exposing his current collection to new snakes and she definitely did not have mites, so the chances of his other snakes' exposure to anything they could catch is minimal. That said, I wouldn't want to risk getting another snake from them either on the offhand chance they could be harboring anything transmittable. Why risk?

As far as "suggesting disease or infection," well, the snake died out of the blue. I think suggests the possibility on it's own. These are not fragile snakes with advanced husbandry requirements. As Mike and others stated, he was only posting his experience so that others would be informed in the future were they considering making a live purchase from LLL. He could have been MUCH more negative about it. How many times have we seen that from others who had much less grounds to be?

I, for one know I will take this as a lesson and will not be purchasing anything live from LLL. I just no longer have faith in the health of their animals based on this and other accounts I have read. No one else has said it, but I also personally feel that a 24 hour health guarantee is a bit short of a time period and makes me feel as though *they* may not have complete faith in the health of their animals either. This is just my personal take on things, I do understand that the live animal business is a tricky one.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I remember when you could give as good as you got.....or at least when you weren't so lazy with your comebacks.

This thread served a very good purpose. You got hosed. LLL should work with you on the necropsy costs. I know I would....

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Yea I'm sorry, I'm just not doing well right now. Nothing to do with this thread though.

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I feel it's pretty unreasonable to try to put blame (yes, you are placing blame) on Mike. Someone who has a healthy collection and has not track record of poor dealings.

I'd care to go pull all the BOIs that are info or negative about LLL, but I actually don't. Because that's not what this is about.

I agree that a necropsy that is 10x the cost of the original purchase price is unnecessary. Mike understands LLLs policy, and has swallowed the loss of his money. He has made up his own mind about LLL similar to how they have made up their mind about their policy.

This is a live and learn situation, which Mike felt other people should have warning against.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Yea I'm sorry, I'm just not doing well right now. Nothing to do with this thread though.

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You're a good kid. I owe you a side hug and a noogie.