Feeding Opinion/Advice

I honestly feel like I might accidentally open a can of worms, but I am going to ask anyway.

"What are your opinions of someone who feeds Live?"

I ask this because in a month I'll be trying to acquire a Ball Python, and most likely was going to stick with Live since it was all I know... And for some reason Frozen/Thawed doesn't sit right with me.. I am not a first-timer with snakes but it kind of feels like it since I've not had a snake since 2011. My first snake was a Corn Snake her name was Rosie I had her from 2001-2011, and while under my care she ate Live mice with no accidents. I always supervised the feeding, If Rosie did want to eat (which was rare) I would put the mouse in a separate cage for another day w/food+water, and I held the mouse by the tail and only let go when I knew Rosie had a good grip on it. Feeding Live didn't effect her personality whatsoever she was incredibly docile and never actually bit me... though she loved to poop on me. :c

My first was a crash course a lot of trial and error and looking back I feel like I got blessed with a great Snow Corn. Because all I had was a small book on Corn Snakes, I didn't have a computer to look up forums like this or any other useful guide to go off of.


I am mainly asking this because I have spoken to friends who own and breed a lot of reptiles primarily snakes. mainly getting advice from them since I'm planning on getting a snake. And the minute I ask they kind of hold a invisible knife to my neck and say "Don't you dare feed Live!" and go on a hour long rant... even though that wasn't the topic I was going to bring up. I am just hoping asking here wont lead to the same thing. XD

A LOT of us feed "Live". There is nothing wrong with it as long as your responsable enough to watch it and make sure no harm is done to the snake.

Thanks for the input.

Definitely agree with the Responsibility and Supervision it's a must, even with my first snake I knew that (though I enjoyed watching it eat) lol

Yea it seems alot of people are either Afraid or dont like to see a live animale get killed by another. All of my snakes are on live, of course sometime I wish they were on F/T just for the fact I can drop and go. I sit in the room till all have been killed or removed. But for me it takes the same amount of time for feeding both ways. Now this is JMO, but I think if they have A Lot of snakes to feed, it may just be easier for them to feed F/T than Live. Hell I dont know if I could handle feeding 50+ snakes Live, I think I would try F/T then.

I love feeding live ... I do it ad much as I can .. its just eaiser to me then warming rats up .. n I like to watch them hunt

I can understand that but that's life, suck it up and drive on. (but that's just me).
I am probably not going to have a huge collection as some, so I wouldn't really have the issue.
So F/T would work for people with tons of Snakes but they may even be breeding their own stock of rodents.

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Originally Posted by steve_r34

I love feeding live ... I do it ad much as I can .. its just eaiser to me then warming rats up .. n I like to watch them hunt

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I will say I do enjoy the good hunt when I did let the mouse scurry about but half the time Rosie always got them mid-air so the hunt was over in an instant.

:sigh:

In some circles there is a stigma on feeding live to snakes. Snakes are efficient hunters and do well with acquiring prey/food. They do not feed on F/T in the wild so it is instinct to move on a live prey item(though I've seen snakes move on f/t which were laid in their enclosure).

When I first got into the snake hobby I thought the same things(it's a danger to the snake, it's inhumane, etc etc). When my 3 snakes at the time began refusing frozen/thawed, I switched to live prey. They were also starting to graduate from fuzzies to mice at the time which could be a factor. So live it was. My snakes were very good at hunting and killing(though Oreo liked to squeeze his prey against the water bowl or side of the enclosure), there were no incidents. For a long time when it would be feeding time for them, I'd sit and watch while I ate my lunch or dinner. It allowed me to watch my guys eat and also be entertained at the same time. Over time, the novelty of feeding live wore off and although I make sure they all eat, I'm more worried now that they do eat and wonder why if they don't.

Others have more XP but in my 12+ years of feeding live rodents to my snakes, I've had 1 incident in 1000s of feedings where a rodent(specifically a rat) was aggressive toward one of my snakes. It was removed from the snake's enclosure and a week later was devoured as I saw fit it would be for harming my snake.

The key in feeding live is knowing how your snakes handle specific prey items and how those prey items handle being in a snake's enclosure. My honduran milk snake eats rats but I don't like that he gets a few bites and scratches while constricting his prey so I keep him on mice or fairly small rats which I know won't harm him though he doesn't seem to mind a few battle scars while eating. He is a beautiful animal and I intend to keep him that way so smaller prey items is on the menu. One of my BPs wrapped a small-medium rat the first time I offered it to him but release it 10 seconds later cause it was either too big or cause I scared him with the flash of my camera(I was excited to see him eat a rat for the first time). I kept him on mice for almost 2 months then recently moved him up to small rats which he handles well.

All of my snakes are also fed in their enclosure which most people will dispel feeding in another enclosure is a myth. Allow your snake to hunt in its territory and know when friend or food is entering to be safe. :)

Absolutely nothing wrong with feeding live when done responsibly.

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Originally Posted by TheLuftGator

I honestly feel like I might accidentally open a can of worms, but I am going to ask anyway.

"What are your opinions of someone who feeds Live?"

I ask this because in a month I'll be trying to acquire a Ball Python, and most likely was going to stick with Live since it was all I know... And for some reason Frozen/Thawed doesn't sit right with me.. I am not a first-timer with snakes but it kind of feels like it since I've not had a snake since 2011. My first snake was a Corn Snake her name was Rosie I had her from 2001-2011, and while under my care she ate Live mice with no accidents. I always supervised the feeding, If Rosie did want to eat (which was rare) I would put the mouse in a separate cage for another day w/food+water, and I held the mouse by the tail and only let go when I knew Rosie had a good grip on it. Feeding Live didn't effect her personality whatsoever she was incredibly docile and never actually bit me... though she loved to poop on me. :c

My first was a crash course a lot of trial and error and looking back I feel like I got blessed with a great Snow Corn. Because all I had was a small book on Corn Snakes, I didn't have a computer to look up forums like this or any other useful guide to go off of.


I am mainly asking this because I have spoken to friends who own and breed a lot of reptiles primarily snakes. mainly getting advice from them since I'm planning on getting a snake. And the minute I ask they kind of hold a invisible knife to my neck and say "Don't you dare feed Live!" and go on a hour long rant... even though that wasn't the topic I was going to bring up. I am just hoping asking here wont lead to the same thing. XD

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So many people do live , some do both , its what ever your snake will do , you might buy a baby raised on frozen and won't take live and vice versa , i have one ball who only ate frozen his hole life and won't take live and i have another that will take only live or pre-killed (but thats a whole different topic pre-killed)

I have a lesser ball who eats like an aggressive colubrid! Eat live or thawed or wet dont matter. All i can say is all the politics aside...thawed gets boring ;). Sorry if i offend anyone but i love when they both know whats up and it becomes a wild west quick draw showdown. Can you guess whose got the quickest draw?


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F/T works well for some folks, and for those animals who will take F/T, feeding is as easy as falling off a rock. However, there is nothing wrong with feeding live, and as long as you know the risks, and manage them, your animals will be just fine.

It's all personal opinion, but I refuse to feed live, ever. I just don't like seeing animals die, and it's not needed in my opinion.

If they don't take ft, I will force feed. Been force feeding my male Malayan pit viper for 11 months now lol.

Of course by supervising them, that is being responsible. But if the feeder decides to bite, you cannot stop that. You can stop subsequent bites, but the initial one may prove fatal, or cause some serious damage.

It only takes a fraction of a second.

I'm honestly against live feeding in most cases. I feel that if you can avoid causing an animal pain or terror, it is our responsibility to feed f/t. Not to mention your animal can get hurt, or worst. Even when they're being supervised things can happen quickly and the damage will already be done. I realize there are cases where an animal just won't take f/t right away, so in that instance you'd have to feed live so the animal won't go hungry. That doesnt mean you should give up on f/t though, all the snakes I work with come around eventually.

As pet owners and human beings we really ought to make the process less painful, honestly. These animals do hunt in the wild but the fact is our pets aren't in the wild, they're in our care.

I won't chastises owners who feed live. It's their animal and their choice. But if something goes wrong, which is indeed possible, the blame is on them. I'm not willing to risk or bare that guilt, or my animals well-being.


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Nothing is wrong with live.

Whether its live or f/t, there are pros and cons to both. There are risks to f/t and there are risks to live. You just have to be responsible and feed what ever works for you and your animals. And some snakes will never switch to F/T. I have done hundreds of live feedings with no issue.
And a snake coil, in my personal opinion based on working in a research lab, is more humane than CO2. A snake coil will kill a rodent faster than a CO2 chamber. A coil stimulates endorphins in the prey animal that does dull the pain receptors and cause less stress. Not to mention, the coil itself cuts of blood circulation and does numb the animal.


Some responsible live feeding tips:

1) Feed the appropriate size food. I like smaller and more frequent meals than larger and less often. Weanlings and small rats are safe and harmless(to some extent). They're also not as conscious to danger as an adult would be. Adult rats can pack a nasty bite and are much stronger at fighting back, which is why "smaller and more frequent" is the way to go. The bite of a small rat is no where close to that of an adult. I feed all of my adults ball pythons weaned/small rats once a week. And multiple smalls for the big girls. A medium size would be the max appropriate size for a ball python. If you're feeding adult mice, try feeding rats of the equivalent size. They are pups and much more harmless than an adult mouse.

2) Keep the feeder well fed and hydrated. They're less likely to see your snake as food. Hungry rats are dangerous rats. They will eat your snake if left unattended for extended periods of time. This is the reason for most snake killing incidences.

3) Don't dangle the live feeder. This puts them in panic mode. A freaked out feeder is a dangerous feeder. Gently place the feeder into your enclosure. Calm feeders are good.

4) Monitor your feedings and keep a tool, such as tongs, on hand to assist your snake in case the feeder tries to bite down. I use a chop stick to stick in the feeder's mouth if its in a bad position.

5) Don't keep the feeder in with your snake longer than 30 mins max or so. Some people have a shorter time frame. If he doesn't eat within that time frame, take out the feeder and save it for next week.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Nothing is wrong with live.

Whether its live or f/t, there are pros and cons to both. There are risks to f/t and there are risks to live. You just have to be responsible and feed what ever works for you and your animals. And some snakes will never switch to F/T. I have done hundreds of live feedings with no issue.
And a snake coil, in my personal opinion based on working in a research lab, is more humane than CO2. A snake coil will kill a rodent faster than a CO2 chamber. A coil stimulates endorphins in the prey animal that does dull the pain receptors and cause less stress. Not to mention, the coil itself cuts of blood circulation and does numb the animal.

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We're obviously not going to agree over f/t vs live, but I'd definitely have to say that CO2 is more humane than being coiled. When done correctly, only a small flow of CO2 is supposed to be flow in the chamber so that the rodents fall asleep before they are exposed to the higher levels, which can cause panic. Here is the official guidelines on the procedure.
http://oacu.od.nih.gov/ARAC/document...asia_Adult.pdf

Also cutting that much blood flow creates a high pressure, and I've seen rodents eyeballs basically pop out of their head from all that squeezing. It basically sends them in cardiac arrest. I just prefer them not to experience that sort of terror if I could help it.

I think a better argument to be made for those in favor of live feeding is the fact some places just freeze their feeders alive to sell f/t. I've heard horror stories about how some places were caught throwing hundreds of mice in sealed packaging and then tossed in large freezers :( I'd definitely take the constriction over that any day.

I'm no stranger to CO2 euthanasia protocol. I partake in it regularly as we euthanize our own research animals in the lab via CO2. I also euthanize excess rats that I breed via CO2 as well. But its just my personal opinion that the snakes, in general, do a better job based on my experience with both methods.

CO2 is not painless even when the rodents do loose consciousness before suffocating. CO2 does sting the eyes and nose. And incorrect use of CO2 like using pre charged chambers, incorrect flow rate, or dry ice is inhumane and the animals do panic and feel pain. Do you know if the commercial breeders who freeze hundreds of rodents every day pre charge their chambers or care about flow rate? I really don't know, but certainly something to think about.

And depending on the age of rodent, it is humane to freeze rodents under 2 weeks of age. They are resistant to hypoxia, thus can survive a CO2 chamber. Freezing is the most effective towards pinks since they have poor temperature management and will die quickly. Anything older than 2 weeks need to be euthanized via cervical dislocation or CO2. It is inhumane otherwise.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I'm no stranger to CO2 euthanasia protocol. I partake in it regularly as we euthanize our own research animals in the lab via CO2. I also euthanize excess rats that I breed via CO2 as well. But its just my personal opinion that the snakes, in general, do a better job based on my experience with both methods.

CO2 is not painless even when the rodents do loose consciousness before suffocating. CO2 does sting the eyes and nose. And incorrect use of CO2 like using pre charged chambers, incorrect flow rate, or dry ice is inhumane and the animals do panic and feel pain. Do you know if the commercial breeders who freeze hundreds of rodents every day pre charge their chambers or care about flow rate? I really don't know, but certainly something to think about.

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Good points, I'm convinced then. I didn't mean to make seem as if you weren't familiar with these CO2 procedures, I had already assumed you knew them because you mentioned your lab work. I was just posting them for OP's reference, I apologize if that came off the wrong way. I still prefer f/t only because I don't want to be responsible if my animal were to be injured because of me or if the animal were to slip up, although they are obviously extremely efficient in what they do haha

No worries. Like I said, just feed what works for you and your animals. There is no one 'right' way. However, there are responsible and irresponsible methods to both.

My point for my initial post was neither live or f/t was risk free. And its OK to feed whatever as long as you do it responsibly.

A snake can die being fed an improperly thawed out f/t. If the core or a feeder is still cold, the snake can go into a system shock. And sadly, some folks have lost their animals from improper f/t feeding and not being vigilante enough.


Everyone knows the risk of live, but there are ways to keep that risk down to a minimum. (Like that list I posted is a good start and practice)

And in regards to feeders, I just personally find a snake coil as humane as CO2. I love my rats and don't want them to suffer unnecessarily.

Anyway. Feed what works for you and your animal. Be aware and responsible folks.


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The majority of the time my ASFs are dead within 15 seconds of being constricted. I definitely would agree from my own experience that constriction is more humane most of the time then gassing. However, it most certainly can drag out to over a minute or two if the prey is either too small or too large. Too large of prey can also pose a risk to the BP as it takes a while for the animal to die it can fight more in the BPs coils. My ASFs rarely even kick when they get coiled.

Thanks again for all the advice, much appreciated. :D

Some great reading in those first few pages. Very clear and helpfull even for those that don't feed live. Do what is best for you and your snake and do it responsibly. Everything else is just opinions and neither right nor wrong.

Well I dont think its "opinions" I would hope we all strive not to have opinions. I hope to provide facts. I think the fact is that F/T or Live can be done wrong and can injure either the prey or the predator. Neither are "better" for the snake nutritionally or vastly more humane then the other method assuming your using CO2 for euthanasia. Some snakes wont take F/T and others wont take live, some wont take certain prey types, including ASFs which are marketed as "candy" for BPs. Basically, feed what your snake will eat, and strive to keep the interaction as safe and humane as you possibly can, for all parties involved, in a "win-lose" type of situation.

I do not have many snakes compared to some people on here <40. I have been feeding 100% live for about 1.5 years nows. Before I fed live I did my own little method (was not that humane so I stopped it...would take a drumstick and crack them on the base of the neck). I can say I had far far far more issues trying to feed stunned rats that live. I can also so I have less feeding issues using live than I did back when I used to do F/T.

You can opener, you! ;)
Actually, the people here have been very nice in their replies. I too, was reading this thread through parted fingers for the first few replies. LOL

Anyway, I feed f/t only because I don't want to see suffering. I don't knock those who feed live, though. I've seen replies to this post about how you have to monitor when feeding live; however, I still monitor my snakes even though I feed f/t. (I'm still paranoid that they may choke or something). Just do what you think is right. Weigh the pros and cons: cost of f/t vs. live, etc. All the best! :)

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Originally Posted by Lubana

You can opener, you! ;)
Actually, the people here have been very nice in their replies. I too, was reading this thread through parted fingers for the first few replies. LOL

Anyway, I feed f/t only because I don't want to see suffering. I don't knock those who feed live, though. I've seen replies to this post about how you have to monitor when feeding live; however, I still monitor my snakes even though I feed f/t. (I'm still paranoid that they may choke or something). Just do what you think is right. Weigh the pros and cons: cost of f/t vs. live, etc. All the best! :)

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:colbert: Need some soap for that mouth. hehehe ;)

Yeah I guess I was just unlucky when I asked for advice on the issue outside the forum, and was quite surprised with the response here. Very welcoming really :3
I totally understand your reason too, each has pros and cons when if done correctly. and after much thought I would be willing to try F/T if I get a BP that has been well started on them and Vice versa.

If you guys do a search on this subject, you'll see that the topic has gone thermo nuclear on more than one occasion, LOL. And if you find the right threads, you may or may not find my avatar stirring up the pot :D

I think what a lot of have discovered about this subject is that there is not one right way that works for everyone, but most all of us have found a way that works for our animals.

The rest of it is mostly a lot of sound and furry, signifying nothing...

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Originally Posted by Slim

If you guys do a search on this subject, you'll see that the topic has gone thermo nuclear on more than one occasion, LOL. And if you find the right threads, you may or may not find my avatar stirring up the pot :D

I think what a lot of have discovered about this subject is that there is not one right way that works for everyone, but most all of us have found a way that works for our animals.

The rest of it is mostly a lot of sound and furry, signifying nothing...

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You got me curious now. *searches*