Caramel VS Ultramel

Hey guys, I was wondering what your thoughts are on caramels and ultramels? A seller offered me a really good price on a female ultramel but he said that for $500 more, he can sell me a double recessive (Caramillo) female. I'm not sure if I want caramel gene because they are known to kink.

Would you take a Caramillo or a clean ultramel female? Thoughts?

Ultramel only all the way!
Why taint a perfectly good gene with Caramel?


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That's what I was thinking. My problem is how do you tell the difference between the two? The seller is a well known breeder so I feel I can trust him but how to be 100% sure?

Caramel on the left ultramel on the right
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/15/y7ahyher.jpg

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The camarillo is nice, but it kind of looks like a lavender albino to me. I would take the visual ultramel over the double het.

i would love to see how that double-recessive caramel + ultramel looks like, does someone have links to pictures and/or further information?

recently in different threads there were discussions if a double recessive axanthic, or a double-recessive albino lavender albino would make sense, these have not been done yet. and then someone posted a picture of an albino + lavender albino of a different species, i think burm, and it looked totally awesome.

so im really curious about this double recessive.

There's pics of them on vin russo's site, he's the one who made them.

I have a picture of the caramillo but how do I post it here without using photobucket, etc.? I don't have an account with them.

Heres a pic or a caramel ultramel and the caramillohttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/15/arery9at.jpg

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The "yellow" one (bottom) looks like a Candino.

oh cool, thanks :)

i also found images on vin russos website.

it really looks like a lavender albino or a candino. but if you would breed it to either of those, you would get normal-looking triple hets :rolleyes:

back to topic.... if you can get your hands on one of these caramillos, that would be quite something. its quite an unusual double recessive project. and im sure you know how hard it is to reach the first visual double recessive when you start a double recessive project from scratch. now that i have seen the pictures, it sounds like quite an opportunity to me.

I'm concerned about investing and being stuck with a snake that produces kinked offsprings. I really like the ultramel though. How much do they usually go for these days? The seller gave me a really good price so either he's hooking me up big time or the value dropped recently.

Search for threads on female caramels and fertility.

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Originally Posted by digizure

I'm concerned about investing and being stuck with a snake that produces kinked offsprings. I really like the ultramel though. How much do they usually go for these days? The seller gave me a really good price so either he's hooking me up big time or the value dropped recently.

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That is the exact reason I will not add caramel to my collection, even though I'm recessive-gene focused. The cheapest visual ultramel female hatchling I have seen recently was $2k on KS, hets for $300-500. But with people advertising them as ultramel/crider out there I would be cautious about who I purchase from since it looks like those are two incompatible lines (kind of like SK axanthic v. VPI axanthic v. MJ axanthic, they're all black and white but incompatible with each other) and you would want to be certain of which one you're actually getting.

The seller is asking $950 for 100g ultramel. The crider is part of caramel line right?

I would go with a female ultramel not a double het, there is a reason why people are walking away from caramel and their combos ;)

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Originally Posted by digizure

I'm concerned about investing and being stuck with a snake that produces kinked offsprings. I really like the ultramel though. How much do they usually go for these days? The seller gave me a really good price so either he's hooking me up big time or the value dropped recently.

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if you would breed a male ultramel to the caramillo, you would get a clutch of ultramels, and all are 100% het caramel as a bonus. the issues only happen in the homozygous form, not in hets, at least i have never heared that BPs that are just het for caramel would have any issues at all.


i dont know anything about the female sub-fertility issue in caramel apart from that it exists, if thats really a problem and affects many female caramels, that would be a real deal-breaker.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I would go with a female ultramel not a double het, there is a reason why people are walking away from caramel and their combos ;)

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i think we are talking about a visual caramillo, not just a double het.

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Originally Posted by digizure

The seller is asking $950 for 100g ultramel. The crider is part of caramel line right?

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Crider is a recessive gene that looks nearly identical to ultramel, and up until recently most people thought they were just two names for the same thing or two allelic but compatible genes (like coral glow/banana or butter/lesser), but it looks like they are actually not compatible with each other (like the separate axanthic lines) since a 2013 pairing (the only one I've heard of) of a visual ultramel male x het cruder female resulted in 9 eggs with zero visuals http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...tramels-3.html. Since Russo was apparently working with the Crider line, and is the one who produced the Camarillos, I would assume that this animal's ancestors came out of his stable at some point and are therefore Criders rather than Ultramels. At the very least you will want to clarify this point with the seller, especially since that is a VERY attractive price (which is what also makes me think Crider).

Apparently I do have an account with photobucket. :) I forgot I signed up a while ago. Here's a picture of the ultramel I'm talking about.

[IMG]http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/...sd825476c.jpeg[/IMG]

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

Crider is a recessive gene that looks nearly identical to ultramel, and up until recently most people thought they were just two names for the same thing or two allelic but compatible genes (like coral glow/banana or butter/lesser), but it looks like they are actually not compatible with each other (like the separate axanthic lines) .... (shortened)...

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thats really interesting.

but then: why not still go for it? as long as you know what you have, whats the problem with working with a smaller line that does the same things, if its so much cheaper? like with axanthic, different people work with different lines, and working with a smaller line is fine and its about the resulting optics. and people argue which lines of axanthic look the best. and for each line, there are people working with it.

so, even if they look almost the same but are incompatible (i am not sure yet, there does not seem to be much solid data), why not still go for it?

and now back to the (less popular) caramel: ok it has issues. and so has the caramillo, because its both ultramel and caramel. but the caramillo looks awesome. if it would not be for the issues with caramel, the caramillo would still be a rather unusual double recessive project, but the issues call it into question. now if crider has no issues, why not attempt a double recessive crider + ultramel? that would not be for everyone because it would probarbly look like candino or lavender albino or something, just with different genetics. but still, the option is there, so if you, by accident, produce a clutch of double hets instead of visuals, it would not be all that bad. you could still get them sold to others that may want to try ultramel + crider, or go for it yourself. but then there is the still real possibility that they are compatible, or even the same, after all. in which case, no problem at all.


now you need to see if you can verify which one it really is, ultramel or crider, and if its crider you need to figure out if maybe you want it anyway.


and then, just to make things more complicated, i need to throw in / randomly mention monarch:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/monarch/ <--- can someone explain what im looking at?

its really a lazy attempt to 1up the game and turn the caramel vs ultramel thread, which has already turned into a caramel vs ultramel vs crider thread, into a caramel vs ultramel vs crider vs monarch thread. if that makes sense :) :oops:

There are a couple of things I want to do with the ultramel gene. I don't want to get into caramels so I just feel there is not point shelling out hundreds of dollars more for the caramillo. Your points are valid but personally, I don't really want caramel gene in my collection.

Visually (not breedability) caramel albino hands down, I have just never like the ultramels or the combos look

Really? I think ultramels looks a whole lot better than caramels. :)

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Originally Posted by digizure

Really? I think ultramels looks a whole lot better than caramels. :)

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Next to this female most deff not.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/16/me7ana4a.jpg

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Originally Posted by digizure

Really? I think ultramels looks a whole lot better than caramels. :)

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100% agree.

I have seen smokin hot caramels and smokin hot ultramels :gj:. It takes a REALLY nice caramel to make me turn my head :gj:. There are way more hot ultramels in my book than ugly ones. Ultramel also combos differently, and more extreme. I like both, but I prefer ultramel for sure.

What do you guys think of the picture I posted? (on the second page)

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Originally Posted by digizure

What do you guys think of the picture I posted? (on the second page)

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it looks really nice, i like the contrast and the colors. i didnt say anything about the picture earlier because i cannot tell if its a crider or an ultramel. the shape of the head looks a bit weird, the rear part of the head, behind the eyes, looks quite big. but i dont know what to make of it.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

thats really interesting.

but then: why not still go for it? as long as you know what you have, whats the problem with working with a smaller line that does the same things, if its so much cheaper? like with axanthic, different people work with different lines, and working with a smaller line is fine and its about the resulting optics. and people argue which lines of axanthic look the best. and for each line, there are people working with it.

so, even if they look almost the same but are incompatible (i am not sure yet, there does not seem to be much solid data), why not still go for it?

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There's no reason not to go for it, and there should be more results coming out on compatibility in the next few months, although there's enough evidence against it that I'm not hopeful. You would just want to be very certain of which line you're actually getting, because just like axanthics there is a noticeable price difference depending on which line you choose, and they're awfully hard to tell apart.

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Originally Posted by digizure

What do you guys think of the picture I posted? (on the second page)

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I think she's cute and I like her.

CARAMEL ALBINO FEMALE


http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/...ps172f63bb.jpg

http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/...psff292e9f.jpg


No problems with fertility here.


Lex

Stick to the ultramel. I know they're like way more expensive, but gosh they're beautiful and without kinking issues as of yet. Can you imagine how heartbroken you'd be to hatch out a clutch of fatally kinked snakes. I had one snake die in my last clutch, of unabsorbed yolk. I bawled for days. First clutch people....first clutch.:oops:

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

Ultramel only all the way!
Why taint a perfectly good gene with Caramel?


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Couldn't have said it any better myself :D Love my Ultramel. He's going into all sorts of great stuff this year.

Regards,

B

I prefer the caramel myself, but I am a little biased since I am working towards a few caramel combos. As mentioned above there are some nice caramels and some nice ultramels. Yes some caramels tend to have kinking problems, but not as bad as some people make it out to be. I also do not see it being no different then spiders and other morphs with issues. If I had to do it all over I would probably add a few ultramels and start a separate breeding project, but would still keep the caramels going since they still do have great potential. I think honestly work with what you would like to work with.

I like both but can't afford either so I can't take sides. But then again I like almost all ball python morphs.

I too prefer caramels

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Originally Posted by Ga_herps

I prefer the caramel myself, but I am a little biased since I am working towards a few caramel combos. As mentioned above there are some nice caramels and some nice ultramels. Yes some caramels tend to have kinking problems, but not as bad as some people make it out to be. I also do not see it being no different then spiders and other morphs with issues. If I had to do it all over I would probably add a few ultramels and start a separate breeding project, but would still keep the caramels going since they still do have great potential. I think honestly work with what you would like to work with.

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Spiders live fine with the wobble. That can't be said about most kinked Caramels. I'm sure more Caramels have had to be put down has hatchlings then Spiders.

Plus Spiders don't have Fertility issues with females.


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The only point I was making with spiders is there are other bp's with flaws that have been accepted in the hobby mainstream. If we were to let a wobble or other issues stop us in the beginning I do not think we would have the diversity in morphs we have today.