Newly Aggressive Spider Ball..

Hey Everyone,

Myself & My girlfriend a new owners to the entire reptile deal, we have a Female Ball Python, that was born the 1st week of August 2012, and we purchased her from the breeder Late July 2013. We track how often she eats and poops, an sheds and when we change her bedding. Anyways, roughly around Oct/Nov she bit my girlfriend when about to feed her and has started to become aggressive when feeding before, after and during which hasn't happened before all that. We fed her every week until early oct when we started feeding her every 5 days, Normally feed her Rats, although if we can't get her any live rats that suit her size we get her a decent size mouse to hold her off until we can.
We take her out and handle her ALL the time, at least twice a day. Tank is normally 70-80 on the cool side, and 80-90 on her warm side (with a heat mat in her warm side hide and a hide on her cool side. She hasn't been aggressive until recently which has really startled my girlfriend (she doesn't like going near "lilith" when feeding, so i feed her.) She gets aggressive and gets ready to strike when we feed her (out of container) but when she strikes towards us she doesn't latch on for long just a nip.

Can anyone give me some ideas on how to calm her down? Should we feed her more? 3-4 days instead of 5-7 days? No signs of RI or mites, always been healthy (except for a cut on her face from a while back that has healed) so no idea..


Shifty

Well how are you feeding her the prey, by hands or tongs? Do u wash your hands before and after u handle the rodent and you out your hand in the enclosure? If you have the smell of rodent on your hand the snake will strike thinking your the prey. From my understanding and minimal experience,balls never strike out of aggression,but they do out of stress or fear...Could also be your husbandry. I am new to snakes,have my first two for 4 months now,but never got any signs of aggression from eating,being it web before or after I fed them or they ate. Your snake sounds highly stressed.

albo there is no reason to stress her out and feed her out of her enclosure. I feed mine inside there homes,where they live,where they are comfortable . That whole feed outside the tank thing is a myth from my experience,and from friends that told me and here on the site.i never ever get any cage aggression from my guys either.

i keep all my temps proper and monitored and humidity where it needs to be. My snakes are forever hiding and never ever aggressive,always very sweet and mellow.

Have you tried feeding her in her cage?

If you are feeding her in a separate enclosure, then you are unintentionally conditioning her to associate leaving the cage with feeding time. The simple fix is just to feed within the enclosure. Many would agree that you are also handling her a bit too much, I would recommend no more frequent than handling every other day...I prefer about 2-3 times a week on my specimens, I will admit though I have a chondro that seems to thoroughly enjoy being out and about, but for most specimens it is at least a bit stressful and should be done in moderation. What is your husbandry like? Temps? Cage furniture? Etc... ?

I agree with the above, when she is removed from the cage she could be thinking it's food time. I feed mine in their enclosures but I'm not sure if you have a particular reason for feeding this way?

You say you handle her at least twice a day? I would cut this down to once a day for around 10-30 minutes. These are animals who tolerate being handled, they do not enjoy it as such. I would recommend lessening this to once a day unless digesting or shedding where it's advised not to handle.

A large 10 degree gradient per end of the enclosure isn't great for us to judge that you have the right husbandry; can you narrow this down for us?

Also anything else you can think that you may have changed in regards to her? Anything in the enclosure etc?

Also, you say "heat mat on warm side, hide on cold" you do have a hide at both ends don't you?

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Originally Posted by Physician&Snakes

If you are feeding her in a separate enclosure, then you are unintentionally conditioning her to associate leaving the cage with feeding time. The simple fix is just to feed within the enclosure. Many would agree that you are also handling her a bit too much, I would recommend no more frequent than handling every other day...I prefer about 2-3 times a week on my specimens, I will admit though I have a chondro that seems to thoroughly enjoy being out and about, but for most specimens it is at least a bit stressful and should be done in moderation. What is your husbandry like? Temps? Cage furniture? Etc... ?

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What he said ^^^^
Keep handling to 2-3 times a week, feed in the enclosure and you'll more than likely see a change for the better. Do you know her weight?

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Don't know her weight, although it only started recently her being aggressive.. Never before.


She feeds inside a different contain to avoid her getting any substrate in her mouth. Will try feeding in inclosure next time if suggested.

I do have a hide on both sides, i think i may have mentioned that in my OP. Might not though.

She has never minded being handled, always handled often and well long before any aggressive signs began and always handled before we got her..Although Will cut back on it.

Always clean my hands before and after handling her or a rodent.

Always hand feed her live, Normally African Soft Furs but she will eat anything, not picky.

Only thing that has changed is we changed her hides around and moved different houses. But everything is the same.

Inside the enclosure she has her 2 hides, water dish, a nice branch lay out to move about under and on and a fake fern that she has always love to curl around.

Often on the cool side its 75-80 and Hot side is 85-90. Hides on both sides and heat mat under the hide on the hot side.


First time owning a reptile, so far this is the only issue we had with her.



Shifty

Yeah a 10 degree drop makes sense between warm and hot sides..that pretty much how my tank is..but as long as your cool side stays in the 70's atleast mid 70's he should be fine

She might be stressed by the change in hides and the house move possibly? A hide change could be a big deal and that is all I can really think of as to why the sudden change.

The only other option I could think of is injury which could bring on aggression but that doesn't seem to fit here - in all honesty I'm baffled! Everything I'm saying is speculation at this point.

She still has her original hide in the terrarium on the cool side and only injury is the cut she has on her head, which baffled everyone who saw it, but its all healed up now so no idea why it would still be affecting her..

When we take her out to be handled we normally just let her roam about on our bed or couch, she is normally really good being handled, doesn't seem bothered by it, just slowly slithers around like she would in her hide.

Had people maybe suggest that could just be the season change bothering her.

Shifty

It is very possible! Is it only during feeding?

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Originally Posted by Shifty11

She still has her original hide in the terrarium on the cool side and only injury is the cut she has on her head, which baffled everyone who saw it, but its all healed up now so no idea why it would still be affecting her..

When we take her out to be handled we normally just let her roam about on our bed or couch, she is normally really good being handled, doesn't seem bothered by it, just slowly slithers around like she would in her hide.

Had people maybe suggest that could just be the season change bothering her.

Shifty

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A weight/length/picture showing size would really help because there is a chance she is just hungry. I worked with some breeder females that would take 2 large ASFs plus if I had any f/t smalls left over. Switch to feeding in the enclosure like you planned, substrate ingestion is little to worry about. If she has never been exposed to a male and is still eating normally, then I doubt it has anything to do with the breeding season. Do you know what caused the scratch? Also, remember, you secret pheromones and all kinds of other chemicals depending on your mood so if your GF approaches her anxious then that can very well trigger defensive behavior in the animal.

Feed her in her home.
She is defensive and like any other snake not aggressive.

Feeding time would be the best time to likely get bit, sounds like a good eater :)

look at all the positive stuff you got going on.

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Originally Posted by Naom9Anne

She might be stressed by the change in hides and the house move possibly? A hide change could be a big deal and that is all I can really think of as to why the sudden change.

The only other option I could think of is injury which could bring on aggression but that doesn't seem to fit here - in all honesty I'm baffled! Everything I'm saying is speculation at this point.

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Yup..two cases,I tried switching my black pastels hide last week,he went in and came right out. I woke up in the morning to find him sleeping behind it,I changed it right back to the old one,came home from work and he was in it...

my ghost just recently shed and while in blue I changed his hide. After all was said and done he shed and came right out of the hide and every night when the lights went out for almost 3 nights he would roam the tank all night,which he never does and he wasn't hungry either,I tried feeding him and he actually wouldn't eat...I was getting nervous,finally after 3 nights he settled in and is back to normal. He's ate 2 time in the last7 days after he settled in :). These snakes can make you a nervous reck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Physician&Snakes

A weight/length/picture showing size would really help because there is a chance she is just hungry. I worked with some breeder females that would take 2 large ASFs plus if I had any f/t smalls left over.

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Excellent point, I have a male & female that only eat ASF's that are about the same age as the OP's snake, both are good solid feeders and will take a large ASF each week and look for more. Both are just over 1000 grams, and the male has been breeding this season and never skipped a meal.

I wouldn't be so quick to say you're conditioning the snake to be aggressive out of the tank if you feed her in a separate enclosure. Because conversely, if you fed her in the tank, she would become aggressive when you'd go to pick her up, because a hand in the tank would mean food.

If the ONLY thing you were doing when taking her out of the tank is feeding, then yes, you'd be slowly conditioning her to be aggressive. Same case with feeding in the tank. But because you're doing different things when taking her out, like handling her and letting her roam around, she isn't being conditioned.

I'd be willing to agree that it's simply a grumpy, stressed out snake.
You're more than welcome to try feeding her in the tank, as I don't think either method (in-tank or separate enclosure) has any real impact on aggressive behaviour, but I would definitely handle her a little less.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Capt.Britain

I wouldn't be so quick to say you're conditioning the snake to be aggressive out of the tank if you feed her in a separate enclosure. Because conversely, if you fed her in the tank, she would become aggressive when you'd go to pick her up, because a hand in the tank would mean food.

Not if you use tongs. ;)

If the ONLY thing you were doing when taking her out of the tank is feeding, then yes, you'd be slowly conditioning her to be aggressive. Same case with feeding in the tank. But because you're doing different things when taking her out, like handling her and letting her roam around, she isn't being conditioned.

Pavlovian conditioning involves setting certain stimuli to produce certain responses. For example, when I go to handle or perform maintenance on my retics, I show them my snake hook and rub it gently against them, then I proceed to do my business. If I am feeding, the hook is nowhere to be seen and the only thing they see is me, the tongs, and the rat. The only difference with my other specimens is they just see my hand when it's not feeding time. It is more than possible to condition multiple behaviors.

I'd be willing to agree that it's simply a grumpy, stressed out snake.
You're more than welcome to try feeding her in the tank, as I don't think either method (in-tank or separate enclosure) has any real impact on aggressive behaviour, but I would definitely handle her a little less.

I have a scrub who has always been like that; however, this specimen has apparently went from relatively placid to slightly aggressive, and the accepted axiom is that every response has a stimulus, therefore something has caused a change and should be identifiable.

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See bolded.

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Originally Posted by Physician&Snakes

See bolded.

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Good points!
I hadn't considered using a snake hook to help signal that difference for in-tank. That would make quite a difference.
But I don't use snake hooks, and we don't even have one on hand for our education snakes at the zoo since they're all so handle-able, so I wouldn't have ever thought of that. Plus feeding time is usually weekly cleaning time as well, so having snakes out of the tank lets me kill two mice with one stone.

What I was trying to get across, though, is the same thing you're saying. There are different parameters. Taking a snake out and letting it chill on the couch with you is different than taking it out and putting it in a separate feeding tank, so that act of taking the snake out alone wouldn't make it aggressive due to out-of tank feeding, and just as you pointed out, entering the enclosure wouldn't automatically cause aggression for a snake fed in-take.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Physician&Snakes

A weight/length/picture showing size would really help because there is a chance she is just hungry. I worked with some breeder females that would take 2 large ASFs plus if I had any f/t smalls left over. Switch to feeding in the enclosure like you planned, substrate ingestion is little to worry about. If she has never been exposed to a male and is still eating normally, then I doubt it has anything to do with the breeding season. Do you know what caused the scratch? Also, remember, you secret pheromones and all kinds of other chemicals depending on your mood so if your GF approaches her anxious then that can very well trigger defensive behavior in the animal.

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Couldn't figure out how to attach a pic to this thread, although here is a link to a picture from today while she was out.

http://motor-obsession.tumblr.com/post/69446371440


Shifty

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Capt.Britain

What I was trying to get across, though, is the same thing you're saying. There are different parameters. Taking a snake out and letting it chill on the couch with you is different than taking it out and putting it in a separate feeding tank, so that act of taking the snake out alone wouldn't make it aggressive due to out-of tank feeding, and just as you pointed out, entering the enclosure wouldn't automatically cause aggression for a snake fed in-take.

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Yes the problem is, if I feed in a separate enclosure and I remove the animal from the cage, then the animal is in a state of "what is happening". The animal does not know it's handling time until the owner gets to the couch or walks around for awhile...in this little time window, you have major room for error; however, if I feed in the cage, then out of the cage automatically means no food.

I hear you on large collections, I used your "feed and clean" method at the store too simply due to the sheer volume of animals. One reason why I am keeping my collection under 30 specimens...I like the idea of being to instill behavioral cues in my animals

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shifty11

Couldn't figure out how to attach a pic to this thread, although here is a link to a picture from today while she was out.

http://motor-obsession.tumblr.com/post/69446371440


Shifty

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How big are the ASFs you feed her?

So people are saying different things, Im not 100% on feeding in the enclosure as a rat can get in between things and make it difficult for her, besides id rather her be aggressive out of the tank when in her feeding tub rather than in her tank.

When out we normally just let her slither around on our bed on top of us or around the couch.. unless she gets too far or might get wedged somewheres then we move her back. She just slithers around, only aggressive when about to feed, feeding and after.
Completely different than when not feeding, when we can have her wrapped around our neck and walking around and she is chill.

Should i perhaps see if she is just a lot hungrier? We try to get something around the same size as the thickest part of her, something fat and cute. Not always ASF's (we just go to the pet store and get feeder ASFs, regular rats. she isn't picky at all.) Although she has eaten bigger.


Shifty

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shifty11

So people are saying different things, Im not 100% on feeding in the enclosure as a rat can get in between things and make it difficult for her, besides id rather her be aggressive out of the tank when in her feeding tub rather than in her tank.

I am confused. If you want her to be more placid outside of the cage, then your best bet is feeding within the enclosure.

When out we normally just let her slither around on our bed on top of us or around the couch.. unless she gets too far or might get wedged somewheres

http://l.yimg.com/ck/image/A2270/227...00_2270082.png




then we move her back. She just slithers around, only aggressive when about to feed, feeding and after.
Completely different than when not feeding, when we can have her wrapped around our neck and walking around and she is chill.

Then we are dealing with hunger, give her seconds and see if it helps.

Should i perhaps see if she is just a lot hungrier? We try to get something around the same size as the thickest part of her, something fat and cute. Not always ASF's (we just go to the pet store and get feeder ASFs, regular rats. she isn't picky at all.) Although she has eaten bigger.


Shifty

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See bolded and italics.

I see what you did there… :D

Seconds sounds like a plan, will try to feed her again tomorrow. Her being still hungry after one rat can make her crazy during the next feed… Makes sense..Im like that too.

Shifty

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shifty11

I see what you did there… :D

Seconds sounds like a plan, will try to feed her again tomorrow. Her being still hungry after one rat can make her crazy during the next feed… Makes sense..Im like that too.

Shifty

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Sounds good, hope it works.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shifty11

I see what you did there… :D

Seconds sounds like a plan, will try to feed her again tomorrow. Her being still hungry after one rat can make her crazy during the next feed… Makes sense..Im like that too.

Shifty

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You might also want to give her a little more time after she's eaten to settle down. Some of our more sassy education snakes can get a little hissy if we try picking them up right after feeding. Giving them 10-20 minutes to chill afterwards before going to handle them again generally does the trick.

I feed in the enclosure, no aggression issues. I take the feeders in about a half hour before feeding time get the smell in the room, ( I feed live) signals feeding time. No smell... obviously not feeding time. Honestly I wouldn't do it any other way.
I would try to feed her a lil more though, my pastel female and spider male both took a rat pup and a mouse this week!

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Ok so I read through all of this before saying anything. If she's getting aggressive when you go to feed her get her a bigger rat for next feeding time. She's hungry. I have fed in a seperate enclosure and in tank for my girl. It doesn't matter which you choose to do. She is hungry and letting you know.

Just one more observation on feeding in a separate enclosure: It has already been discussed that she should not automatically associate being taken out of her tank with feeding. However, she has every reason to associate something coming into her feeding tub with food, especially if she's already taken one meal down. You are most at risk from a feeding bite when you reach into a cage (home or otherwise) directly after feeding. The snake is in feeding mode, especially if you are not using something like a hook to let her know that it isn't dinner (or dessert) that's hovering overhead.

plan on getting her a bigger terrarium this thurs/fri. Should have a rat small enough/big enough for her weds/thurs as no store has a rat small enough or a mouse big enough for her, although will keep checking back to find some. Hopefully a bigger terrarium and a big meal for her will "cheer her up"

Shifty

You could always feed her two of the small mice until you can find a steady supply of rats big enough for her.

got her the bigger tank and rat. She was nippy before feeding but didn't seem to mind us being in her tank after. it was a huge meal so we shall see on her next feeding day. I think it was just her being hungrier, shall see for sure next thursday/friday when we feed her again.

http://mopar-obsession.tumblr.com/post/69883993402

Shifty

Update Again.

Fed her Dec 18th and again today (a day late to a huge snow storm) a big sized rat each time, and she didn't seem aggressive after or before her feed. Although she is about to shed (well preparing for it.) Let her relax for 10-15 minutes before bringing her out of her feeding tub.


Thanks everyone, Seems to have solved the issue, but will give an update again next 2 feeds.


Shifty