Why so obsessed?

Why is everyone so overly obsessed with co-doms and over flooding the market with them? I saw multiple adds just today for a pastel female for 50 and a spider female for 50 as well... I also saw normals being given away for free. This is beyond sad. Why do so many people feel the need to over produce animals that are already flooded and can not be sold? Seriously what is the point? I think people should seriously cut back on their production.

So let's hear what you have to say on this topic?

I don't think they are doing it to saturate the market, they probably trying to get a nice morph but they had no luck, now are stuck with a bunch of mouths to feed and they are trying to get rid of them fast.

I think co-doms are common now because people keep trying for those 12.5% odds, and in the meantime, keep popping out "just" pastels and spiders and whatever other co-dom/dom morphs you can think of. Everyone likes to think they'll hit the odds on their first try. How convenient would that be, right? But odds don't work that way.

But... I think people have the right to produce whatever snakes they want to produce, and sell them for whatever they want to sell them for, or give them away if that's what they want. If they aren't in it for the money, or they have the time/money/patience to keep trying to hit the odds jackpot, why should they care if they price above or below what Joe Blow Breeder has them at? They don't owe anyone anything.

The exotic market fluctuates constantly. Prices will never remain the same from day to day regardless of whether you're selling tarantulas, snakes, lizards, or freaking beetles. It's like any market - once something becomes common and available to the "general public" vs "guy who is richer than you," the person banking on selling to the rich guy gets butthurt because oh noes! Normal people can afford to buy the same product he's selling because he no longer has something rare, and how ever will he stay rich?!

That said, I haven't seen any pastels for $50. I didn't pay $50 for mine.....
I got her for free :rofl:

10 years ago I remember wanting a Spider so badly. At the time they were in the $600 range. As a young lass of 15 that dream was way out of reach. This year I picked up a pair of a Spiders for $100. I can't tell you the joy I felt opening that bag to see them there in the flesh. I understand your disappointment, but I couldn't be happier that some of these morphs I only dreamed of owning are now affordable to me. My other 2 dreams are arriving in a few weeks, an Albino and a Mojave. :)


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I'm no breeder, but I'd guess it's simply because everyone is going for the 4-5 gene animals these days and anything less than a 3 gene is kind of a miss. A single gene is most definitely a miss and it costs just as much to keep them as a 4-5 gene so breeders want to dump them ASAP to avoid housing costs.


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Originally Posted by Bugmom

I think co-doms are common now because people keep trying for those 12.5% odds, and in the meantime, keep popping out "just" pastels and spiders and whatever other co-dom/dom morphs you can think of. Everyone likes to think they'll hit the odds on their first try. How convenient would that be, right? But odds don't work that way.

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Originally Posted by JoshR324

I'm no breeder, but I'd guess it's simply because everyone is going for the 4-5 gene animals these days and anything less than a 3 gene is kind of a miss. A single gene is most definitely a miss and it costs just as much to keep them as a 4-5 gene so breeders want to dump them ASAP to avoid housing costs.


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X2 for both of these. A lot of 2 gene animals are in a price range that people can afford so that bumps the price and usefulness of most single gene animals down along with it. If I can get a bumblebee for 250 why would I spend a 150 a piece on a pastel and spider then wait to grow them out and breed them. Now I'm in the hole for more than I would have spent on a bumblebee. Not to mention, I can only hope to produce bees in that pairing. It doesn't make those animals any less beautiful, but for a few extra bucks you can throw in another gene. Why not. Pastels still have their place, but if I can throw lesser or spider or fire to it......no brainer.



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Personally i think a person has a right to sell their snalke for whatever they feel like. I personally wouldnt spend more then maybe 200 or 300 for a snake and im not alone in that. I think the lower price will also attract more people into keeping BP's. I for one would never have gotten into keeping Ball python if all that was being sold was high priced snakes.

I almost have to laugh at the people getting all hurt and upset because they can't get a hundred bucks for that common single gene base morph, because so-and-so 3 tables down is selling the same thing for 50. High quality animals will continue to bring somewhat higher prices, but in a enough years you will see bananas and even ghi's going for 50. all morphs will eventually drop in price to the point where they command a price the same as or just a bit more than a normal. The more of anything there is, the less the demand for it.

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Can I ask why just about everyone breeds the same morphs???
I'm actually being quite serious in asking this question, as I have scrolled down the morph list and used the wizard and there are quite a few morphs that I rarely see being bred and sold....
Obviously if market is flooded with certain morphs and not that many of the others, the more common flooded morphs are going to drop in price.

Oh and I don't mean morphs like GHI or bamboo with the high price tag...
I'm talking chocolate, sable, etc

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Markets get flooded based off demand. Anyone can produce a rare morph that someone does not find appealing, that doesn't mean it's going have a high demand and command a hefty price tag. Demand is created off what people find aesthetically pleasing in conjunction with what they can afford. When something is more affordable more people will be breeding it, especially when they like the looks. Those animals are more common more affordable and easier to sell.

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I think anyone working with Co-doms should also have a few recessives as it does lead to some cool combos later on, and also adds a kick to any normals you produce that are 100% het for something. So far my six specimen breeding group will produce mostly just the market stables: working with Albino, ghost, pastel, spider, butter, & lesser...I just added the latter two...got a deal I could not refuse from the breeder I am buying the others from. I would love to see some BELs pop out of the incubator two seasons from now but it's not certain statistic-wise, and if it was I probably would have no interest. Any lower end morphs I produce like spiders, het albinos, poss het ghost, lesser, and pastel I will probably just look to break even on what they are costing to keep. Visual albinos, supers, and 2+ gene co-doms are where I would take into account a fair profit margin; however, I am by no means planning on quitting my day job or college.

If someone wants to try breeding BPs and doesn't have a lot of money, they can pick up a breeder pastel and a breeder spider for a couple hundred, whereas getting just a male breeder that has multiple genes, moreso if they are harder to find ones, will cost much more (that's not even mentioning the cost of a breeder female with multiple genes). Also, some people just want to get in and try out the hobby of breeding them. A lot of those (and others) don't have patience, so they buy what is available and what is cheap (i.e. breeder pastels, spiders, etc.), hence the continuation of flooding the market with those morphs.

It is common across almost all markets of any kind, people pay for convenience and ease so they don't have to do the hard work themselves, which leads to some very common and cheap items and some rarer and more expensive ones.

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Originally Posted by T&C Exotics

Why is everyone so overly obsessed with co-doms and over flooding the market with them? I saw multiple adds just today for a pastel female for 50 and a spider female for 50 as well... I also saw normals being given away for free. This is beyond sad. Why do so many people feel the need to over produce animals that are already flooded and can not be sold? Seriously what is the point? I think people should seriously cut back on their production.

So let's hear what you have to say on this topic?

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So with that said, I assume you didn't produce any single gene/normal babies this year...

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Originally Posted by sho220

So with that said, I assume you didn't produce any single gene/normal babies this year...

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Sure didn't... As a matter of fact I did not produce a single animal this year. But that is not the point of this post at all. I am in the market to buy and with the animals priced as they currently are it would be pointless for me to buy them. I have made the decision to work with recessives mostly. I love the snakes as much as the next guy but if I am going to be breeding them then the sales of the babes needs to pay for the upkeep of the animals. If the sales of the offspring does not cover the cost of the food, water, electricity, and everything else then there is no reason for me to keep them and breed them which is what I love doing. Passion for something can only bring you so far. If the finances are not taken care of then no amount of passion will compensate for the time and energy that was placed into the animals.

I'm newer to ball pythons in general, and am not bashing anyone else's opinion but please understand that a really cool looking pastel, spider, any other base morph, in fact, even a random cool looking normal is still really awesome to see, hold, hear about, read about, etc., in my opinion. I think with all the really fancy crazy multiple gene bps out there they we all have forgotten just how beautiful these creatures really are no matter what their morph is or how much they cost. I know when you are talking business its all about dollars and scents and how much you can make off their offspring but keep in mind that we aren't talking jewelry or random objects. We are talking about living animals. I think its great. Even some other members shared about dreaming of owning these base morphs and even now some of the crazy stuff is affordable. I understand breeders don't breed only for the love of sharing and creating awesome creatures with the public and have to make a profit to continue but where did we all start? 1 or two bps? A normal or single gene? (well most of us) A breeder that is passionate will also want to create the best looking and healthiest specimens to pass on to keep creating the best and most beautiful specimens no matter what they are going to charge for them. What is it really about at the end day? Knowing you've created something beautiful to share with the world... or... making a buck??? Don't get mad get glad that we can all have the morph of our dreams one day!

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Originally Posted by eib88

I'm newer to ball pythons in general, and am not bashing anyone else's opinion but please understand that a really cool looking pastel, spider, any other base morph, in fact, even a random cool looking normal is still really awesome to see, hold, hear about, read about, etc., in my opinion. I think with all the really fancy crazy multiple gene bps out there they we all have forgotten just how beautiful these creatures really are no matter what their morph is or how much they cost. I know when you are talking business its all about dollars and scents and how much you can make off their offspring but keep in mind that we aren't talking jewelry or random objects. We are talking about living animals. I think its great. Even some other members shared about dreaming of owning these base morphs and even now some of the crazy stuff is affordable. I understand breeders don't breed only for the love of sharing and creating awesome creatures with the public and have to make a profit to continue but where did we all start? 1 or two bps? A normal or single gene? (well most of us) A breeder that is passionate will also want to create the best looking and healthiest specimens to pass on to keep creating the best and most beautiful specimens no matter what they are going to charge for them. What is it really about at the end day? Knowing you've created something beautiful to share with the world... or... making a buck??? Don't get mad get glad that we can all have the morph of our dreams one day!

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cents not scents**** lol

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Originally Posted by T&C Exotics

Sure didn't... As a matter of fact I did not produce a single animal this year. But that is not the point of this post at all. I am in the market to buy and with the animals priced as they currently are it would be pointless for me to buy them. I have made the decision to work with recessives mostly. I love the snakes as much as the next guy but if I am going to be breeding them then the sales of the babes needs to pay for the upkeep of the animals. If the sales of the offspring does not cover the cost of the food, water, electricity, and everything else then there is no reason for me to keep them and breed them which is what I love doing. Passion for something can only bring you so far. If the finances are not taken care of then no amount of passion will compensate for the time and energy that was placed into the animals.

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How about prior to this year?

So let me get this straight... I have a point of view on something about the market as it is right now and I am being questioned about the past?

To answer your question. Last year I produced many single animals, all of which were het for either albino or pied. I did not produce a single normal at all. This has no impact on what is for sale right now and what was bred for this year though.

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Originally Posted by T&C Exotics

So let me get this straight... I have a point of view on something about the market as it is right now and I am being questioned about the past?

To answer your question. Last year I produced many single animals, all of which were het for either albino or pied. I did not produce a single normal at all. This has no impact on what is for sale right now and what was bred for this year though.

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Years past contribute to the problem today, obviously you're guilty of both saturating the market further and enabling someone else to saturate it in the future.

I'd go as far to say I blame you, along with everyone else who breeds, of causing this to happen.

I don't harbor any I'll will and I'm not trying to offend you. You have a right to your opinion and point of view. But when you make a post blaming people who can't afford to be breeding expensive multiple gene morphs or more uncommon single genes that are still expensive people will get irritated. They have a right to breed whatever they please and can afford. It's basically like saying why are there so many civics on the road and not more kia rios. Because that's what people like in their price range

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If I make 100 single gene $50 dollar animals and make 1 just 1 snake that I absolutely LOOOOVE then it was worth it. Honestly if I make 100 free snakes and still get that one perfect snake I wanted it was worth it. I am still in the stage where I consider it a hobby and expect to lose cash though :P

I believe many of us have adjusted our production and have made good plans but with that said every year more and more new hobbyists are producing their own babie's in turn saturating the market on SOME morphs.

Gotta take the good with the bad I guess.

I have a $50 Pastel female for sale and a Mojave female with a free male Pastel. Reason being, I was going for supers this year. 7 egg clutch yielded 1 Killerbee, 1 Super pastel, 3 bumblebees, and 2 Pastels. Keeping the supers, sold the bees ( with ease) and I have 1.1 pastels left. I have an easier time selling a normal.

The only reason I'm selling the female Pastel for $50 is because she is a low quality animal. I expect or even ask fair market prices for her.

I try to breed for high quality animals, but not all of them can be smokin' animals. :2cent:

I understand the frustration that single gene animals are going cheaply - but at the same time, I feel that quality animals will still sell reasonably well. Take pastels as an example - I see ugly pastels get passed up on Facebook auctions pretty frequently, but today I saw a bid of $100 for a clean, pretty, MALE pastel. if I were breeding for nice pastels, he would have been a solid investment. I've even seen selectively bred STUNNING mojaves still sell for 500 or more. I'll be trying to avoid producing normals by including lots of recessives and supers in my tubs. At this point if you (in general 'you', not directed at anyone in particular) don't care about quality, you'll be the one struggling to sell your animals for $40.

A big part of it is odds are odds.

For example, this year I have a savannah (cinnamon mojave) x pewter pairing I'm hoping will give me eggs. I want a super cinnamon mojave, and a super cinnamon pastave would be that much better!! But I know that I'll also probably get a normal and some single gene animals. Unfortunatley many of these single gene animals and normals are by products of other projects. Heck, I could have horrific odds and get 100% normals from breeding 2 co-dom animals together.

I agree that people do need to be responsible with their breeding and avoid breeding for the sake of breeding, but plenty of responsible breeders produce lots of animals that they don't want or don't have room for.

I personally think a lot of people complaining expected to be able to turn a quick profit when they bought their hatchlings a few years ago and are now bitter because prices have come down. You can't make quick money in this hobby. It takes work, dedication, planning, and a bit of luck.

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Originally Posted by Blue Apple Herps

A big part of it is odds are odds.

For example, this year I have a savannah (cinnamon mojave) x pewter pairing I'm hoping will give me eggs. I want a super cinnamon mojave, and a super cinnamon pastave would be that much better!! But I know that I'll also probably get a normal and some single gene animals. Unfortunatley many of these single gene animals and normals are by products of other projects. Heck, I could have horrific odds and get 100% normals from breeding 2 co-dom animals together.

I agree that people do need to be responsible with their breeding and avoid breeding for the sake of breeding, but plenty of responsible breeders produce lots of animals that they don't want or don't have room for.

I personally think a lot of people complaining expected to be able to turn a quick profit when they bought their hatchlings a few years ago and are now bitter because prices have come down. You can't make quick money in this hobby. It takes work, dedication, planning, and a bit of luck.

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Well said :)

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That's right how dare do people breed those single gene animals and flood the market :rolleyes: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...=1#post1919662

I don't shoot for single gene but they do happen as a result of breeding multiple genes animals and even if people are shooting for single gene animal why does it matter to YOU and who are YOU to tell people to cut back on their production?

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Originally Posted by Blue Apple Herps

A big part of it is odds are odds.

For example, this year I have a savannah (cinnamon mojave) x pewter pairing I'm hoping will give me eggs. I want a super cinnamon mojave, and a super cinnamon pastave would be that much better!! But I know that I'll also probably get a normal and some single gene animals. Unfortunatley many of these single gene animals and normals are by products of other projects. Heck, I could have horrific odds and get 100% normals from breeding 2 co-dom animals together.

I agree that people do need to be responsible with their breeding and avoid breeding for the sake of breeding, but plenty of responsible breeders produce lots of animals that they don't want or don't have room for.

I personally think a lot of people complaining expected to be able to turn a quick profit when they bought their hatchlings a few years ago and are now bitter because prices have come down. You can't make quick money in this hobby. It takes work, dedication, planning, and a bit of luck.

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I completely agree with what you said here and that is understandable. I completely understand missing the odds and having the by product animals. What I find overly irritating is someone just breaking in and buying 3 pastel males and a bunch of normals and just breeding to breed. That is pure irresponsibility and not just from a standpoint for the industry but for the animals themselves.

A great example of this is a guy I know who opened a pet shop and wanted to stand out. So he purchased a bunch of WC adult females and pastel males and attempted to breed. He got a bunch of normals and pastels and then could not sell a single one because of the market prices and what he had them marked at. So he then discounted them and lied to people about the genetics and so on and so on and then ended up creating a lot of people who purchased the animals who were breeding them and creating the same thing over again when they tried to sell them. It is a downward spiral after that. Luckily he is now out of business but he did create a bunch of people who had high hopes of making money and ended up with nothing in the end. Should they have done their research? Yes. But not everyone will.

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Originally Posted by Apple

I understand the frustration that single gene animals are going cheaply - but at the same time, I feel that quality animals will still sell reasonably well. Take pastels as an example - I see ugly pastels get passed up on Facebook auctions pretty frequently, but today I saw a bid of $100 for a clean, pretty, MALE pastel. if I were breeding for nice pastels, he would have been a solid investment. I've even seen selectively bred STUNNING mojaves still sell for 500 or more. I'll be trying to avoid producing normals by including lots of recessives and supers in my tubs. At this point if you (in general 'you', not directed at anyone in particular) don't care about quality, you'll be the one struggling to sell your animals for $40.

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I hope you're recessives are females or you have virgin females that's dedicated just for that recessive male.

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Originally Posted by don15681

I hope you're recessives are females or you have virgin females that's dedicated just for that recessive male.

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Yep. I'm starting with mostly hatchlings and plan to be working on specific projects for a while.

I guess I still don't get it.

Let's say I breed my pewter male and my pastel female in two years. I get cinnamons, pastels, pewters, maybe a super pastel. Odds are against me that I won't get a sterling pastel. So what though? Now I have a cinnamon that I didn't have to buy. Yay! Maybe I have a super pastel that I didn't have to buy. Extra yay! Because I'm not starting this venture in the red, and can easily afford to have more than the 10 snakes I have now, what's it to me or anyone else if I have a clutch of "just" pewters and pastels? They're going to be quality animals because they're produced from quality animals, and I'll have my hold backs and sell or yes, maybe even give away the rest, because SNAKES ARE FREAKING AWESOME and I want to share my snakes with the world.

If you start a business in the red, so much that you NEED to make a profit on every single snake produced, then there's a flaw in your business plan. You have to expect to run at a loss for awhile unless you start in the black. If you are the kind of person who sells off snakes because the washer broke and you don't have $400 to buy a new one, then there's a flaw in both your personal and business budgets. Every business needs emergency funds, it needs contingency plans, it needs a solid and detailed several-year plan. And it needs to be able to stay "open" when selling the product at the lowest market price. You can't bank on selling at the highest market price.

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Originally Posted by Bugmom

I guess I still don't get it.

Let's say I breed my pewter male and my pastel female in two years. I get cinnamons, pastels, pewters, maybe a super pastel. Odds are against me that I won't get a sterling pastel. So what though? Now I have a cinnamon that I didn't have to buy. Yay! Maybe I have a super pastel that I didn't have to buy. Extra yay! Because I'm not starting this venture in the red, and can easily afford to have more than the 10 snakes I have now, what's it to me or anyone else if I have a clutch of "just" pewters and pastels? They're going to be quality animals because they're produced from quality animals, and I'll have my hold backs and sell or yes, maybe even give away the rest, because SNAKES ARE FREAKING AWESOME and I want to share my snakes with the world.

If you start a business in the red, so much that you NEED to make a profit on every single snake produced, then there's a flaw in your business plan. You have to expect to run at a loss for awhile unless you start in the black. If you are the kind of person who sells off snakes because the washer broke and you don't have $400 to buy a new one, then there's a flaw in both your personal and business budgets. Every business needs emergency funds, it needs contingency plans, it needs a solid and detailed several-year plan. And it needs to be able to stay "open" when selling the product at the lowest market price. You can't bank on selling at the highest market price.

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Thank you! That's exactly what I was saying earlier!

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Originally Posted by Deborah

That's right how dare do people breed those single gene animals and flood the market :rolleyes: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...=1#post1919662

I don't shoot for single gene but they do happen as a result of breeding multiple genes animals and even if people are shooting for single gene animal why does it matter to YOU and who are YOU to tell people to cut back on their production?

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I totally agree with your thinking, but a few important posts buried in that thread...

From post #56 on the OP was basically called out on not having produced what was claimed in the first post...from there on for a few posts is a bit telling of that...

Post 106 you can take how you wish, personally I feel like it might as well just be taken as admission of the thread being nothing but a lie, everyone is free to read into it however they wish...

And post 84 and a couple of posts of "the truth" after are a bit entertaining where the OP was proclaimed to have died.


cheers, and have a wonderful evening

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Originally Posted by rascal_rascal_99

I totally agree with your thinking, but a few important posts buried in that thread...

From post #56 on the OP was basically called out on not having produced what was claimed in the first post...from there on for a few posts is a bit telling of that...

Post 106 you can take how you wish, personally I feel like it might as well just be taken as admission of the thread being nothing but a lie, everyone is free to read into it however they wish...

And post 84 and a couple of posts of "the truth" after are a bit entertaining where the OP was proclaimed to have died.


cheers, and have a wonderful evening

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If you read the entirety of that thread you would see that I had come clean on what I did. I admitted my wrong doings.

Oh I've read the entire thread previously, it only took me a few minutes of skimming back through it to find what I thought were telling posts of the entire thread for people to read, before they read post #1 and took it as factual and gave up on reading further. The "coming clean admission of wrong doing" post was #106 that I mentioned even...although everyone is obviously free to think on their own and make up their own minds about how much of even that post to believe or not to believe. :)

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Originally Posted by don15681

I hope you're recessives are females or you have virgin females that's dedicated just for that recessive male.

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This is a good point and also brings up something I thought of reading this thread:

I ended up with an 8 egg retained sperm clutch this year that I didn't plan on. I didn't intend on having babies at all this year and planned on just a single clutch of pieds next year. Instead, I have 4 pastels, 2 black pewters, and a normal. And the pastels are not that great -- which was why I didn't repeat the original pairing. Am I looking forward to trying to place them? No. No I'm not.

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Originally Posted by rascal_rascal_99

I totally agree with your thinking, but a few important posts buried in that thread...

From post #56 on the OP was basically called out on not having produced what was claimed in the first post...from there on for a few posts is a bit telling of that...

Post 106 you can take how you wish, personally I feel like it might as well just be taken as admission of the thread being nothing but a lie, everyone is free to read into it however they wish...

And post 84 and a couple of posts of "the truth" after are a bit entertaining where the OP was proclaimed to have died.


cheers, and have a wonderful evening

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I am very familiar with that thread (hence why I posted it) my point is the idea (not the actual fact) of breeding single gene morphs was not a problem at that time even if the market was already flood.

If people want to breed single genes that is not of anyone´s business and some people should not throw stones especially the OP ;)

I started this thread to ask a question and vent a little. Did I vent to much? I guess I did. Just as everyone else is entitled to an opinion I am as well. If you do not agree with me that is perfectly fine. But I guess not everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

As to anything bringing up the other thread.... That has taken this thread very much off topic. I know what I have done wrong and have even admitted it openly. It is not the job of anyone else to believe me, it is my job to prove it which I am working on doing. It is kind of hard to do considering I am not currently breeding. But when I do breed again I will be sure to provide every single bit of evidence to prove what I am doing. If that is not enough for someone.... Oh well then. If anyone here has an issue with me then please feel free to contact me directly.


Now could we please get back on topic?

I'll take a quality single gene morph over a poor example multigene morph any day. My first BP was a pinstripe and even not knowing what I was doing I think I chose well in terms of his color. He's almost 900g and while he certainly isn't as yellow as he was, he's more of a golden color and not brown. My clown female I chose for her slightly reduced appearance (I don't like overly reduced because I like the teardrops and occasional dots. I also like her brighter yellow). And last my leo female I adore. I like her wacky pattern. Pretty sure I'm still going to enjoy a good lesser, leo, clown, and so on on their own, even when I get to producing 2-4 gene animals. Slapping more genes on there doesn't really make it worth more if the ingredients aren't of quality. Now I don't plan on having a normal, except for those I will produce in the future when I miss on a combo, so all my pairings will be some morph to as least one other if not a two gene morph. That's just because I'm chasing certain combos and I'd like to avoid normals. I'll be just fine with single gene animals. I don't think there will ever not be a market for them. Not everyone can just buy the combo their after. Those single gene animals are the building blocks. I'm chasing axanthic fireflies. If I were to just buy that combo I would expect to drop about 7k. I don't have that nor am I willing to spend that much when I can buy the ingredients for around 2-3k. (my choice is pastel ax to fire ax).

Everyone is to blame if anyone wants to complain about this. That's really all there is to it.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

That's right how dare do people breed those single gene animals and flood the market :rolleyes: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...=1#post1919662

I don't shoot for single gene but they do happen as a result of breeding multiple genes animals and even if people are shooting for single gene animal why does it matter to YOU and who are YOU to tell people to cut back on their production?

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Classic...

Truthfully we have bigger problems than a market filled with lower valued snakes. Why are we working on producing 50 albino Burmese Pythons at a time when we all know that they can grow to be over 15 feet long. Besides that, it is true, but sad to think that most of the reptiles that are sold at an expo, don't make it very far in their lives and have high mortality rates. That's why every one produces their own, let alone for the experience, a little extra cash flow to support an expensive hobby, and like everyone else suggests, the 12.5% odds.