BHB gives info on some scaleless concerns

New Snakebytes, brian gives the low-down about heat pits, vent scales, eyecaps and the story of it all.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWZcLuFH6rI

What a great video! It was so fun watching his excitement of cutting the eggs again!

I saw that this morning too - he's so clearly excited, props to him for such an awesome project! You can see in how excited he is that it's not just the money - he is really, truly, genuinely 120% excited to be making something new. It's awesome to see that enthusiasm! :)

-Jen

umm, yeah, not much new unfortunately.

i really expected the absence of belly scales and that shedding and eye caps are fine, yesterday BHB posted a picture of a scaleless shed with eye caps in it.

he downplayed the heat pit issue a little bit, yeah they probarbly sense heat, but its not directional anymore.

still, it looks like they will be quite viable, with few issues, at least they eat and shed and grow. place your bets: will BHB make a post when they first crap?

i guess the first scaleless combos will come out next year or in two years, BHB now has at least two scaleless, and a pastel scaleless head and a pinstripe scaleless head and some other scaleless head breeders, and Mike Wilbanks has 3 scaleless heads.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

umm, yeah, not much new unfortunately.

i really expected the absence of belly scales and that shedding and eye caps are fine, yesterday BHB posted a picture of a scaleless shed with eye caps in it.

he downplayed the heat pit issue a little bit, yeah they probarbly sense heat, but its not directional anymore.

still, it looks like they will be quite viable, with few issues, at least they eat and shed and grow. place your bets: will BHB make a post when they first crap?

i guess the first scaleless combos will come out next year or in two years, BHB now has at least two scaleless, and a pastel scaleless head and a pinstripe scaleless head and some other scaleless head breeders, and Mike Wilbanks has 3 scaleless heads.

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Unfortunately the way recessive genes work, it will be more than a year or two to grow out morph hets and then make morph scaleless. Count on at least three years, probably four.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

umm, yeah, not much new unfortunately.

i really expected the absence of belly scales and that shedding and eye caps are fine, yesterday BHB posted a picture of a scaleless shed with eye caps in it.

he downplayed the heat pit issue a little bit, yeah they probarbly sense heat, but its not directional anymore.

still, it looks like they will be quite viable, with few issues, at least they eat and shed and grow. place your bets: will BHB make a post when they first crap?

i guess the first scaleless combos will come out next year or in two years, BHB now has at least two scaleless, and a pastel scaleless head and a pinstripe scaleless head and some other scaleless head breeders, and Mike Wilbanks has 3 scaleless heads.

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TBH the first poop is really important - it lets you know there are no major internal issues with digestion etc. :P

Yeah, I have been keeping up on his shows and that is pretty awesome! Going to be crazy what things come from that in the future.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

Unfortunately the way recessive genes work, it will be more than a year or two to grow out morph hets and then make morph scaleless. Count on at least three years, probably four.

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umm, its codominant, the scaleless heads are quite obvious. so, no guesswork with possible hets. and there will be scaleless head to scaleless head breedings for more fully scaleless, but also scaleless head to "powerhouse multi-gene BP", and then its very easy to pick out the scaleless heads. it works just like a super-project, like a super enchi project or something.

so, plenty of multi-gene scaleless heads will be produced soon and the 2013 pinstripe and pastel, if they are male, should allow for the first scaleless morphs in 2014.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

umm, its codominant, the scaleless heads are quite obvious. so, no guesswork with possible hets. and there will be scaleless head to scaleless head breedings for more fully scaleless, but also scaleless head to "powerhouse multi-gene BP", and then its very easy to pick out the scaleless heads. it works just like a super-project, like a super enchi project or something.

so, plenty of multi-gene scaleless heads will be produced soon and the 2013 pinstripe and pastel, if they are male, should allow for the first scaleless morphs in 2014.

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Scaleless heads is a visual het.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

Scaleless heads is a visual het.

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So you mean incomplete dominant...

Scaleless heads are co-dom http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...caleless-head/

yeah, incomplete dominant is the more accurate term.

anyway, not recessive. its much too obvious for that. i mean, its missing scales right in the middle of the head.

It can technically be labeled as heterozygous for scaleless too. Like how pastel is Het for homozygous super pastel.....

Visual 'recessives' like Het clowns/pieds aren't called co-dom. Yet they show 'codom' traits.

Its all little technicalities.
And BP genetic labels are already inaccurate enough. Co-dominance isn't even the correct term either. Its incomplete dominance. Similar, but not the same......


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Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

So you mean incomplete dominant...

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You could go that route, but it's visual het.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

You could go that route, but it's visual het.

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As are all the morphs the BP hobby call co-dom.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

umm, yeah, not much new unfortunately.

i really expected the absence of belly scales and that shedding and eye caps are fine, yesterday BHB posted a picture of a scaleless shed with eye caps in it.

he downplayed the heat pit issue a little bit, yeah they probarbly sense heat, but its not directional anymore.

still, it looks like they will be quite viable, with few issues, at least they eat and shed and grow. place your bets: will BHB make a post when they first crap?

i guess the first scaleless combos will come out next year or in two years, BHB now has at least two scaleless, and a pastel scaleless head and a pinstripe scaleless head and some other scaleless head breeders, and Mike Wilbanks has 3 scaleless heads.

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http://youtu.be/0cVlTeIATBs

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

and Mike Wilbanks has 3 scaleless heads.

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Was this ever proven or just more internet rumors?

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Originally Posted by Mr Oni

http://youtu.be/0cVlTeIATBs

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Now thats what i call spam

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Originally Posted by Buttons

Was this ever proven or just more internet rumors?

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more or less confirmed. first there were rumours, it leaked on facebook and elsewhere, then Brian Barczyk mentioned in an interview just days later that he very recently sold a small group of BPs for 210000 dollars. and the rumours were that Mike Wilbanks purchased 3 scaleless heads for something like 60000 or 70000 each. fits nicely. even for BHB, selling a small group of BPs for 210000 dollars should be kinda rare.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

Now thats what i call spam



more or less confirmed. first there were rumours, it leaked on facebook and elsewhere, then Brian Barczyk mentioned in an interview just days later that he very recently sold a small group of BPs for 210000 dollars. and the rumours were that Mike Wilbanks purchased 3 scaleless heads for something like 60000 or 70000 each. fits nicely.

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I have seen your youtube coments and realized that even with a diffrent name and no knowledge that its the same person I get the same mental silverware launched through a cannon at a chalkboard noise.

KurtLn? Something like that.

You sir, have a fingerprint. :rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

he downplayed the heat pit issue a little bit, yeah they probarbly sense heat, but its not directional anymore.

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I haven't heard this one. Do you have a source?

The scaleless was amazing to hold none the less. I saw no problem with it.. It moved like any of my other BP's just felt...weird. We just have to wait and see what the future holds.

I am wondering a little about the heat pits too. I read that the pit organs act a lot like a pinhole camera, and that the snake's visual and IR maps are "overlaid in the optic tectum". If you remove the actual "pit", the heat sensing may still be there, but how will it be perceived and overlay optically? I really don't know enough about it to be the judge really, but I'm curious.

You guys do realize Brian is not the first one to produce a scaleless ball right? Eugene Bessette did it years ago.

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Originally Posted by zach_24_90

You guys do realize Brian is not the first one to produce a scaleless ball right? Eugene Bessette did it years ago.

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Weren't those random, and weren't proven out? I believe the hype is that Brians are genetic scaleless.

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Knowing Eugene I can assure you they were not random lol from what I hear he and Brian have been having some very "friendly" conversations on this topic as of late.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

It can technically be labeled as heterozygous for scaleless too. Like how pastel is Het for homozygous super pastel.....

Visual 'recessives' like Het clowns/pieds aren't called co-dom. Yet they show 'codom' traits.

Its all little technicalities.
And BP genetic labels are already inaccurate enough. Co-dominance isn't even the correct term either. Its incomplete dominance. Similar, but not the same......


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

yeah, incomplete dominant is the more accurate term.

anyway, not recessive. its much too obvious for that. i mean, its missing scales right in the middle of the head.

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Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

So you mean incomplete dominant...

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I believe you are all wrong, it IS co-dominant not inc-dom.

see my thread for explanation: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...e-Co-Dom-morph


on topic, why are the heat pits still brought up? The thing eats, why are the heat pits an issue?

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

on topic, why are the heat pits still brought up? The thing eats, why are the heat pits an issue?

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Haha right? If it eats what does it matter? They aren't in the wild in Africa... They are in a tub in a rack. It gets hand fed it doesn't have to fight for survival.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

Now thats what i call spam



more or less confirmed. first there were rumours, it leaked on facebook and elsewhere, then Brian Barczyk mentioned in an interview just days later that he very recently sold a small group of BPs for 210000 dollars. and the rumours were that Mike Wilbanks purchased 3 scaleless heads for something like 60000 or 70000 each. fits nicely. even for BHB, selling a small group of BPs for 210000 dollars should be kinda rare.

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So it's rumour and you're just spreading it more. Haha

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Originally Posted by zach_24_90

Haha right? If it eats what does it matter? They aren't in the wild in Africa... They are in a tub in a rack. It gets hand fed it doesn't have to fight for survival.

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I do get that, it's not like it's going to compromise it's ability to survive in captivity, but I do believe they rely on their pits as a very important way in which they perceive the world. It's not usually a respectable practice to breed other types of animal with known problems (deaf, blind etc), even if they do just fine in captivity. I suppose it's more of a moral issue than anything else, but one that should probably be addressed. I don't know where I stand on it, both because I haven't really given it a lot of thought, and also I am not really sure how the lack of actual pits changes the way the perceive things, or if it really has an impact, but given the pin-hole camera analogy, I would assume it does. I know many snakes do not have IR sensing pits, but those that do have evolved to come to rely on them. Not all mammals have colour vision but I certainly wouldn't want to give mine up.

Again, I'm not saying I have an issue with it, but to just say "If it eats what does it matter?" seems rather dismissive, is all.

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Originally Posted by Shera

I do get that, it's not like it's going to compromise it's ability to survive in captivity, but I do believe they rely on their pits as a very important way in which they perceive the world. It's not usually a respectable practice to breed other types of animal with known problems (deaf, blind etc), even if they do just fine in captivity. I suppose it's more of a moral issue than anything else, but one that should probably be addressed. I don't know where I stand on it, both because I haven't really given it a lot of thought, and also I am not really sure how the lack of actual pits changes the way the perceive things, or if it really has an impact, but given the pin-hole camera analogy, I would assume it does. I know many snakes do not have IR sensing pits, but those that do have evolved to come to rely on them. Not all mammals have colour vision but I certainly wouldn't want to give mine up.

Again, I'm not saying I have an issue with it, but to just say "If it eats what does it matter?" seems rather dismissive, is all.

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Before bhb let some info out, all people had to say is it couldn't find food because it didn't have heat pits and the other big issue was no belly scales so it couldn't move.

obviously it can move and it is eating, so what issues are left with the heat pits? its not being dismissive, its a question.

Also I am color blind and I do just fine :) (btw does not mean i see in black and white)

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Before bhb let some info out, all people had to say is it couldn't find food because it didn't have heat pits and the other big issue was no belly scales so it couldn't move.

obviously it can move and it is eating, so what issues are left with the heat pits? its not being dismissive, its a question.

Also I am color blind and I do just fine :) (btw does not mean i see in black and white)

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See, I don't want to debate with you because I already said that I don't feel strongly about it, but I do believe it would maybe be a bit like purposefully breeding deaf cats or something because you wanted a certain appearance. Deaf cats do just fine in captivity, but they are lacking an important sense that they have come to rely on over millions of years of evolution, and to knowingly take that away, well it seems a bit...unkind? Like I said, I was, and actually am curious as to how this changes their perceptions, both because it could impact my own personal decision to work with them (many years in the future), and because I'm just plain curious.

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Originally Posted by zach_24_90

Knowing Eugene I can assure you they were not random lol from what I hear he and Brian have been having some very "friendly" conversations on this topic as of late.

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You can assure me? How about you go ahead and prove it to all of us, because what I said was exactly the truth. It was random,and they all died quite suddenly and also unexpectedly.


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Originally Posted by Kodieh

You can assure me? How about you go ahead and prove it to all of us, because what I said was exactly the truth. It was random,and they all died quite suddenly and also unexpectedly.


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I don't think he ever claimed to be 'first' on it either. As things stand though it's the only genetically proven line out there...I don't think any hets from the derma ball or purple haze still exist. It's not as if he stole their stock and claimed it as his own project either - it originated from an African import.

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Originally Posted by Xaila

I don't think he ever claimed to be 'first' on it either. As things stand though it's the only genetically proven line out there...I don't think any hets from the derma ball or purple haze still exist. It's not as if he stole their stock and claimed it as his own project either - it originated from an African import.

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Do you know if the derma or purple. Haze were ever genetic as the case with visual hets for Brian? Or did they come up unexpectedly in a "typical" pairing?

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

Do you know if the derma or purple. Haze were ever genetic as the case with visual hets for Brian? Or did they come up unexpectedly in a "typical" pairing?

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I ~think~ both came from normal-appearing parents and not visual hets like the scaleless heads. The derma + most of the rest of the collection died after its owner went to jail, afaik. I had heard that the purple haze (which looks just like these guys) died at 800 grams and had not reproduced. I know a bit less about that one though.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

You can assure me? How about you go ahead and prove it to all of us, because what I said was exactly the truth. It was random,and they all died quite suddenly and also unexpectedly.


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Wow don't get your panties in a wad lol take thing too serious much?

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Originally Posted by anatess

I haven't heard this one. Do you have a source?

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Let me repeat my question because it did not get addressed... who/where/when did anybody say that the scaleless ball pythons lack directional heat sensing due to the absence of pits?

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Originally Posted by zach_24_90

Wow don't get your panties in a wad lol take thing too serious much?

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Well, with the sensitivity of the subject, claims need to be substantiated.

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All this scaleless talk is so 2009. I've developed an invisible ball python. Please see the picture attached to this post of my big male after it swallowed a live rat......and yes, it's a visual het.

After that, I'm going to work on breeding one without any teeth or a tongue. I've leaked this info to a number of people in the hobby and I've received quite a bit of hate mail about it. The nerve of some people, after all , it's not like they live in the wild.

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...norway_rat.jpg

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Originally Posted by anatess

Let me repeat my question because it did not get addressed... who/where/when did anybody say that the scaleless ball pythons lack directional heat sensing due to the absence of pits?

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thats basic physics and geometry, based on the fact that any kind of skin or flesh is intransparent to infrared, even otherwise transparent eyeballs are intransparent to it.

and ill let Richard Dawkins explain the geometry issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEKyqIJkuDQ (of course the part where the lens comes in no longer applies to heat pits; the lens would be intransparent to infrared so the pit has to stay open.)

and a physics article about it:
http://phys.org/news76249412.html

http://cdn.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/2006/Snake.jpg

you can find many more articles that mention the importance of the geometry of the pit and explaining that the snake figures out the direction by feeling which parts of the pit heat up and which dont. you can find it in physics, biology and herpetology articles.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

Well, with the sensitivity of the subject, claims need to be substantiated.

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sensitivity? lol and im sorry I didn't record or video tape my conversation with Eugene in Daytona. not something I do every day.

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Originally Posted by zach_24_90

sensitivity? lol and im sorry I didn't record or video tape my conversation with Eugene in Daytona. not something I do every day.

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So, you had a single conversation?

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

thats basic physics and geometry, based on the fact that any kind of skin or flesh is intransparent to infrared, even otherwise transparent eyeballs are intransparent to it.

and ill let Richard Dawkins explain the geometry issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEKyqIJkuDQ (of course the part where the lens comes in no longer applies to heat pits; the lens would be intransparent to infrared so the pit has to stay open.)

and a physics article about it:
http://phys.org/news76249412.html

http://cdn.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/2006/Snake.jpg

you can find many more articles that mention the importance of the geometry of the pit and explaining that the snake figures out the direction by feeling which parts of the pit heat up and which dont. you can find it in physics, biology and herpetology articles.

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I've actually been able to find precious little about the pit organs of boas and pythons, which are a little bit different from pit vipers. The idea is general the same though, IIRC. It does make me wonder how scaleless rattlesnakes have fared though.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

So, you had a single conversation?

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No. That's just the last time I saw him and we spoke about it. Supposed to be going out to the farm soon. What has you so upset man? Like who pooed on your pancakes to piss you off lol is this THAT Important to you?

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

thats basic physics and geometry, based on the fact that any kind of skin or flesh is intransparent to infrared, even otherwise transparent eyeballs are intransparent to it.

and ill let Richard Dawkins explain the geometry issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEKyqIJkuDQ (of course the part where the lens comes in no longer applies to heat pits; the lens would be intransparent to infrared so the pit has to stay open.)

and a physics article about it:
http://phys.org/news76249412.html

http://cdn.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/2006/Snake.jpg

you can find many more articles that mention the importance of the geometry of the pit and explaining that the snake figures out the direction by feeling which parts of the pit heat up and which dont. you can find it in physics, biology and herpetology articles.

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I completely understand how pit organs work.

What I don't understand is how you run with the conclusion that just because the beta-keratin layer on a scaleless ball python is thin (it's not completely absent, hence it still sheds) it somehow loses its directional heat sensing capability.

Find this article in your college library:
Campbell, A. L., T. J. Bunning, M. O. Stone, D. Church, and M. S. Grace. 1999. Surface ultrastructure of pit organ, spectacle, and non pit organ epidermis of infrared imaging boid snakes: a scanning probe and scanning electron microscopy study. Journal of Structural Biology 126: 105-120.

It posits that boids don't just rely on the pit holes, they have micropits that are like pores that reconstruct infrared signals into an image. It supports the claim in the article you linked to that the 2 pit holes in pit vipers are more limited than say, a ball python that has several labial pits. If the beta keratin layer was so thin that a maximum array of signals hit the micropits, then you get better infrared vision. But that's just my opinion.

The bread of this butter can be evidenced by the ability of the scaleless ball python to find the head of the rat. Well, it would be great if Brian would actually give it a live one in the dark so we can see if it can track the rat and strike it on the back of the head. I'm betting that it can.

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Originally Posted by zach_24_90

No. That's just the last time I saw him and we spoke about it. Supposed to be going out to the farm soon. What has you so upset man? Like who pooed on your pancakes to piss you off lol is this THAT Important to you?

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Just trying to get the facts here.

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Originally Posted by anatess

I completely understand how pit organs work.

What I don't understand is how you run with the conclusion that just because the beta-keratin layer on a scaleless ball python is thin (it's not completely absent, hence it still sheds) it somehow loses its directional heat sensing capability.

Find this article in your college library:
Campbell, A. L., T. J. Bunning, M. O. Stone, D. Church, and M. S. Grace. 1999. Surface ultrastructure of pit organ, spectacle, and non pit organ epidermis of infrared imaging boid snakes: a scanning probe and scanning electron microscopy study. Journal of Structural Biology 126: 105-120.

It posits that boids don't just rely on the pit holes, they have micropits that are like pores that reconstruct infrared signals into an image. It supports the claim in the article you linked to that the 2 pit holes in pit vipers are more limited than say, a ball python that has several labial pits. If the beta keratin layer was so thin that a maximum array of signals hit the micropits, then you get better infrared vision. But that's just my opinion.

The bread of this butter can be evidenced by the ability of the scaleless ball python to find the head of the rat. Well, it would be great if Brian would actually give it a live one in the dark so we can see if it can track the rat and strike it on the back of the head. I'm betting that it can.

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I only managed to get the abstract of the paper, but the abstract in no way says that these micropits provide any directional heat sensing. they merely amplify signal strength by concentrating the thermal effect of the infrared radiation to those points where the heat-detecting cells are. The abstract says: "Pit organ micropits averaged 319 nm in diameter and 46 nm in depth and were spaced an average of 808 nm from each other". So its not deep enough to be a cup camera, and the size of a single cell is comparatively too large, so i just dont see how it could provide directional information.

Heat pits are between one and a few millimeters in size. The micropits you mention are too shallow, and also 319 nanometers is equal to 0.000319 millimeters. Thats off by like 3 orders of magnitude. I say these structures merely make existing heat pits more effective, but do not have the right size or geometry to provide directional sensing on their own. That is, if these structures even exist in a scaleless BP.

finding the head seems to be more of a tactile task.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

I only managed to get the abstract of the paper, but the abstract in no way says that these micropits provide any directional heat sensing. they merely amplify signal strength by concentrating the thermal effect of the infrared radiation to those points where the heat-detecting cells are. The abstract says: "Pit organ micropits averaged 319 nm in diameter and 46 nm in depth and were spaced an average of 808 nm from each other". So its not deep enough to be a cup camera, and the size of a single cell is comparatively too large, so i just dont see how it could provide directional information.

Heat pits are between one and a few millimeters in size. The micropits you mention are too shallow, and also 319 nanometers is equal to 0.000319 millimeters. Thats off by like 3 orders of magnitude. I say these structures merely make existing heat pits more effective, but do not have the right size or geometry to provide directional sensing on their own. That is, if these structures even exist in a scaleless BP.

finding the head seems to be more of a tactile task.

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Do you have access to any of the college libraries? It would be great if you can peruse the entire article. The paper goes more in depth on the studied functions of micropits. And, the micropits don't just receive signals from the pit holes either as they are found all over the head and body of the boid.

Finding the head in the dark tells us a lot about the infrared image the snake is receiving as striking in the general direction of the rat may not tell you what the snake "sees" but more what the snake hears/feels. So, if it can still target the head of the rat with that thin beta-keratin layer over the pit membrane, then it's an indicator that the absence of the visually-normal pit holes is not in any way providing a handicap.

When I sit down later, I'll see what I can dig up by way of the full article. The worst I can do is get it printed, scanned, and post the pdf in like Dropbox or something similar.

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P.S.
From what I know of pits, they do not function like photo receptors on a camera lens because they don't function with light. Instead they function through heat. So it is this heating of the pit holes that trigger nerve signals. Now, whether these nerves rely solely on the thickness of the scale around it and the size of the hole or if it still functions with a variation of thickness and hole size is the question (do the scaleless still have the labial holes?). Not one scholarly article in structrual biology addresses it. Probably because Brian is the first guy that figured out how to produce one.

You know, I'm going to shoot Brian an email and see if he can run this experiment with his scaleless. It would be a great science project for my kid. This could also provide very critical knowledge on the function of the labial pits because, even to today, that's still an evolving science.