Crazy genetic question but I think it works

Hey y'all

So correct me if I am wrong, this is just a theory. If I were to breed 100% piebald het cinnamon to a 100% piebald black pastel would the babies come out as possible piebalds, super black (solid black), lower percentage het normals, cinnamon, and black pastels? Also what are my chances of getting a piebald and what kind would it be? What are my chances of a super black , I heard 1/4 percent? I've given this a lot of thought haha. Fill me in guys :)

Thanks!

Here you go: http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wi...female=33,83:1

umm, cinnamon is codominant, black pastel is also codominant. so there is no such thing as "het cinnamon" or "het black pastel", instead you have a super form.

with a recessive like pebald, you can either have te visual form, or the hets, which look like normals.

so, let me try to interpret what you said....

its a cinnamon 100% het pied to a black pastel 100% het pied.

the calculator says this:

Male:	Cinnamon, Het Piebald
Female:	Black Pastel, Het Piebald
Percent	Fraction	Traits
6.25%	1/16	Piebald, 8 Ball
6.25%	1/16	Piebald, Cinnamon
6.25%	1/16	Piebald, Black Pastel
6.25%	1/16	Piebald
12.5%	1/8	8 Ball, Het Piebald
12.5%	1/8	Cinnamon, Het Piebald
12.5%	1/8	Black Pastel, Het Piebald
12.5%	1/8	Het Piebald
6.25%	1/16	8 Ball
6.25%	1/16	Cinnamon
6.25%	1/16	Black Pastel
6.25%	1/16	Normal
View Results Page

but since you cannot differentiate between het pied and the ones that are not het pied, apart from the pieds, you get:

18.75% = 3/16 8 ball 66% possible het pied
18.75% = 3/16 cinnamon 66% possible het pied
18.75% = 3/16 black pastel 66% possible het pied
18.75% = 3/16 normal 66% possible het pied


and yes the 8-ball piebald would qualify as a panda pied, just with a very dark brown instead of black (normally panda pied is a super black pastel pied, not an 8-ball).

Thank you so much! I think I am going to invest in these two snakes if I can find them!!! :gj:

Technically a Cinnamon IS heterozygous for cinnamon and super is homozygous for cinnamon. Since it's a co-dominant mutation this just means the heterozygous genotype expresses the phenotype. They are still both heterozygous (1 copy) and homozygous (2 copies). The difference with a recessive gene is just that it only expresses the phenotype when it is homozygous in genotype.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrLang

Technically a Cinnamon IS heterozygous for cinnamon and super is homozygous for cinnamon. Since it's a co-dominant mutation this just means the heterozygous genotype expresses the phenotype. They are still both heterozygous (1 copy) and homozygous (2 copies). The difference with a recessive gene is just that it only expresses the phenotype when it is homozygous in genotype.

---

that is correct, but in the common usage of words there is no such thing as a "100% het cinnamon" because the word "het" is only ever used when talking about recessives. There is a heterozygous cinnamon called a cinnamon, but there is no "het cinnamon", because that would imply that you get a cinnamon by breeding two normal looking "het cinnamon" together. and thats not correct.

its linguistics, but strictly speaking "het" is a different word with a different meaning and different common usage compared to the more precise "heterozygous". "hets" are supposed to look normal, maybe with some kind of markers maybe without. You can find a context where it makes sense to talk about a "heterozygous spider", but the term "100% het spider" never makes sense.

Hey guys? I think you misunderstood my question. I said PIEBALD HET Cinnamon and black pastel meaning they would carry the piebald gene in them and when bred together I should have a chance at producing a panda, super black, and piebald among the lower percentage of het black pastels and cinnys. Make sense?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by freedom21

Hey guys? I think you misunderstood my question. I said PIEBALD HET Cinnamon and black pastel meaning they would carry the piebald gene in them and when bred together I should have a chance at producing a panda, super black, and piebald among the lower percentage of het black pastels and cinnys. Make sense?

---

Well that's really not the way the term het is generally used. I understood what you meant but the "het" should go before the morph in question, as in het piebald, het clown, het albino. What you said generally would imply a visual piebald, het cinnamon which as was pointed out isn't correct.

Ah gotcha, didn't know there was a creation placement. Now that we are all on the same page, do you guys think its a good idea to breed the two? I would like to find a breeder that may have them? I know its probably not too common, and any idea how much these het might cost?

There is a lot of potential with this pairing, certainly worth doing.

I haven't seen many of these around, and they will probably be pretty expensive. It might be a better plan to pickup a male visual pied, a female cinnamon, and a female black pastel and make some yourself.

i guess you can find them, because panda pieds are quite fancy and popular.


but if panda pieds are the goal, you dont need cinnamon. just search for black pastel het pied. or maybe a female black pastel het pied and a male black pastel piebald. It may be costly to get this stuff, but im sure they are to be found on the market. i dont know much about pricing.

super cinnamon is dark brown, super black pastel is more black, and cinnamon black pastel is somewhere in between. and all of these have the same genetic issues, combining cinnamon and black pastel doesnt help against the duckbill, unfortunately. So, no need for cinnamon, and a nicer black color when you just stick to black pastel.

and yes, "het" always comes in front of the recessive morph.

If I were you, I'd go with two het pied black pastels. The super cinnamon (while my favorite codom gene) is a nice thought, it's Hershey chocolate brown. Black pastels are...black. So, what you're wanting is black pastels.

I supposed a cow pied could be cool, a white snake with brown blotches.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

Thats true, they probably will be expensive. Piebalds are just really expensive so I figured hets would be cheaper. I might just buy two hets and make my own piebalds and go from there but thats a like a 6+ year breeding project to get where I want to go but I guess I have to start somewhere or find another job just for ball python founds. I mean not everyone has 700+ to drop on one snake. Its not very realistic. I'll have to shop around before I make any solid decisions. Thanks guys!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by freedom21

Thats true, they probably will be expensive. Piebalds are just really expensive so I figured hets would be cheaper. I might just buy two hets and make my own piebalds and go from there but thats a like a 6+ year breeding project to get where I want to go but I guess I have to start somewhere or find another job just for ball python founds. I mean not everyone has 700+ to drop on one snake. Its not very realistic. I'll have to shop around before I make any solid decisions. Thanks guys!

---

Pieds have dropped in price some, Justin Kobylka has a male listed for $450 currently. Still not cheap, but I remember when they were over $1,000 and hets were $400-$500

The Panda Pied is certainly an interesting project.

Problem is that I believe there are real genetic issues with the morph. To my knowledge there have only been a few even produced. Kinda strange for the 25% odds breeding a Black Pastel Pied pair.....

I heard the first produced died a few years later and Colin Weaver produced one last year which I have no idea what happened to. He had it listed for $16K and it is no longer on his website.

Anyone else know of any produced??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

but since you cannot differentiate between het pied and the ones that are not het pied, apart from the pieds, you get:

18.75% = 3/16 8 ball 66% possible het pied
18.75% = 3/16 cinnamon 66% possible het pied
18.75% = 3/16 black pastel 66% possible het pied
18.75% = 3/16 normal 66% possible het pied

---

Just a head up the calc can do that part also:

Male:	Cinnamon, Het Piebald
Female:	Black Pastel, Het Piebald
Percent	Fraction	Traits
6.25%	1/16	Piebald, 8 Ball
6.25%	1/16	Piebald, Cinnamon
6.25%	1/16	Piebald, Black Pastel
6.25%	1/16	Piebald
18.75%	3/16	8 Ball, 66% Possible Het Piebald
18.75%	3/16	Cinnamon, 66% Possible Het Piebald
18.75%	3/16	Black Pastel, 66% Possible Het Piebald
18.75%	3/16	66% Possible Het Piebald
View Results Page

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by freedom21

Ah gotcha, didn't know there was a creation placement. Now that we are all on the same page, do you guys think its a good idea to breed the two? I would like to find a breeder that may have them? I know its probably not too common, and any idea how much these het might cost?

---

also along the same lines, people usually list all the dom,co-dom,visuals before listing the hets. Obviously you could be understood saying het piebald black pastel, but usually people would say black pastel het pied. Now you are a ball python lingo pro :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by freedom21

Hey y'all

If I were to breed 100% piebald het cinnamon

---

Not such thing as a het cinnamon. You don't need to say 100% piebald either. All piebalds are 100%.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grcforce327

Not such thing as a het cinnamon. You don't need to say 100% piebald either. All piebalds are 100%.

---

I already established that mistake, I had no idea there was certain word placement.